Conference hydra::dejavu

Once in a while, I have been.  Once, I used the experience to create the
dreamscape I wanted (this can be quite a taxing experience, but it's
good mental discipline, since you have to control a lot of factors simul-
taneously).

The second time was rather funny.  I had a dream in which I was involved
in the creation of a *highly* complex electro-optical device.  I felt
that the (dream) room I was in was a little hot, so I stepped outside to
the (dream) balcony for a breath of fresh air.  While there, I saw a shape
beginning to form.  Long and spectral, and (as of that moment in time) un-
focussed.  I saw how it was going, and was suddenly aware I was dreaming.
I said to it, "You are a Freudian symbol, and I don't permit such symbols
in my dreams."  I thought intensely that it should vanish, and it did,
"dissolving" like something fading out of sight on a movie screen.  Then,
I turned from the space where whatever it was had been and regarded the
ironwork on the balcony.  I gripped it and found it was solid, not n-
substantial.  I said to myself, "Good material in this dream," and then
stepped inside and let the dream pick up where it left off.

No more "visitors" in the dream.  And I'm not sure to this day just
*what* I was on the verge of seeing in that dream.  But whatever it was,
not it nor anything like it ever bothered any of the dreams I can
remember.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

It's really strange that I had a dream that I was aware of as being a dream
the night after I posted this note. It's been quite a while since this has
happened. Once I realized that I was dreaming I knew I could pass through
objects, such as walls, doors, etc.  It was wierd, I could feel the solidity
of the object but if I wanted to and exerted any pressure at all, I would
pass right through.  I could stick my head through a door to see what was
on the other side and fly upward through the ceiling without damaging anything.
The dream seemed to last for a long time. Then I heard this horrible noise,
my alarm clock.

		Dave

What .0 and .1 are talking about has been described as lucid dreaming. 
Interestingly, it leads to what .2 talks of, which is probably an out-of-the
body (OOBE) experience, although maybe not recognized as such at the time.

There are many books on both subjects. A couple that I like are:

	"Creative Dreaming"
	author - Patricia Garfield, PhD.
	publisher - Simon & Schuster


	"Journeys Out Of the Body"	(This author used lucid dreaming as)
	author - Robert A. Monroe	(one way to experience OOBEs.      )

Anyone who experiments with dreams may be interested in the fact that 
vitamin B6 'intensifies?' your dreaming substantially.

My fiancee and I both started taking 500mg of B6 along with our other vitamins.
We both soon noticed a significant increase in our dreaming, or at least the 
ability to remember dreams.  After several weeks of not relating the dreaming 
with the B6, we came across the association in a vitamin book.  To test this 
we stopped taking the B6 and our dreaming returned to normal...

							-Don Mac
							drift'n & dream'n
							
PS: I'm with Him...

re: .4

Thanks for the info.  I don't take any vitamin supplements, but will start
with vitamin B6.

		Dave

I am also informed that dreaming on a pillow stuffed with the herb, Mugwort,
stimulates unusual (not hallucenogenic) dreams.  It might be interesting
to try, under controlled conditiona, a B6/Mugwort combination.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

P.S.: The Mugwort isn't for internal consumption.
-sk

Where does one get Mugwort?  I think I'll stick to B6, but I am interested.

	Dave

Since I have been writing in this note, I've had more "lucid" dream exper-
iences. I had been talking to a friend on this subject last weekend and he 
also had the same type of dream occaisionally.  We decided to try to meet 
each other the next time we had a lucid dream.  Well last night I became 
aware that I was dreaming and stopped what I was doing to go find my friend. 
We had agreed on a location, the place where I grew up.  I tried very hard to
get there by flying, walking, and driving.  I kept getting side tracked and
even woke up once.  I was always aware of my task of trying to find my friend
but couldn't get there. When I got up, my body was very stiff and I had a
mild headache.  I'm going to continue to try this but I'm not sure how I'll 
go about it next time.
   
		Dave

In H. P. Lovecraft's short novel (which I consider to be unqualifiedly
his best work), _Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath_, he proposed another
place (to avoid "plane") called the dreamworld.  It had a common area,
where people could interact with each other and the dreamworld inhabi-
tants, both human and otherwise (sometimes Otherwise), and private
enclaves at the edges where people had private worlds.
	This ties in, somewhat, with the Jungian notion of the Collective
Unconscious, which some occultists use as a model for various opera-
tions.  
	Your experiment, if successful, could shed a lot of light on these
things.
	Or maybe it would just be simple telepathy.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

i've been aware on occasion of knowing i was dreaming. it doesnt happen too
often tho. i do however recognize that im dreaming more in a nightmare than a
pleasant dream. anyone else??? thoughts???

How does one acquire the ability to recall dreams?  I know I dream,
everyone does, because I have on occasion waked myself up by calling out.
However, I have ZERO recall of any dream.

				Bill

I'm certainly no expert, but one theory goes that the only dreams remember
are those occurin a few minutes before one awakes or during a dream. With
recall diminishing rapidly after one awakes.


Ken

There are some interesting attempts to record what one has dreamed; the most
usual technique is to take a pad and pencil to bed (leave on night stand);
when waking up, supposedly one can jot down salient features before they
fade.

Generally, the results are hilarious when one awakes fully.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

I am much more conscious of dreaming, and much more likely to have 
waking dreams, when I am extremely well rested.  There are times when I 
zonk out for 12 to 16 hours, and it is not uncommon for me to drift in 
and out of dream state near the end of the marathon sleep.

It may also be helpful to concentrate, before falling asleep, on waking 
up near the end of a dream.  It seems that sometimes the conscious mind 
can direct the unconscious in this way.  You may also be able to 
"flavor" your dreams this way, by concentrating on topics you'd like to 
visit in your dreams before drifting off.

I was awakened this morning about 1/2 hour before I usually get up by 
one of my cats, who managed to step on my face as he was climbing up to 
the window sill over my bed.  I must have been actively dreaming, as I 
was very aware of the dream (although I've since forgotten it).  I fell 
back to sleep and did not get up until about an hour later, so the dream 
was, alas, done.

Tom

I suggest you might also want to consult _The Psychology of the Occult_ by
D. H. Rawcliff (Dover Press) to find out more about the hypnagogic state.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

 									      
 On  remembering  on  directing  dreams: I have never, as far as I can recall, 
 remembered a "random" dream.
 
 And yet I am somewhat beset by insomnia: my cure for this is to relax totally 
 and  fill  my  mind with a pure fantasy (usually science fiction on the grand 
 scale, but anything that comes to mind will do).  I then rapidly fall asleep, 
 and  continue  the  daydream  through my sleep (or at least that is the way I 
 perceive it). When I wake I have a clear memory of the adventures of my sleep 
 state,  which  rapidly  fade.  Sometimes if the dream is going wrong for me I 
 will awake, but on directing my thoughts to a resolution of the dream problem 
 I drift  back  to  sleep  and  the  dream  continues  in  the  more favorable 
 direction.
 
 Incidentally I also manage to tell my subconscious mind what time I  wish  to 
 awake and I will wake up within a couple of minutes of the right time.  I can 
 also change my body clock  to  compensate  for  changes  in  time  zone  when 
 traveling,  and  hence don't suffer at all from jet lag, I know these are off 
 the subject, but they are part of the total picture.
 
 /. Ian .\
 

I just finished reading all the responses to this note, and upon coming
to the note that mentioned being aware that you are in a nightmare, I 
realized that that is what I used to do very many times when I was younger.
I used to have a lot of nightmares when I was younger, but not any in the past
5-8 years. 

On remembering dreams, the way I feel is that if I remember a dream, it is
not going to come true.  I feel like all of my other dreams, given time,
will come true.  I think I am going to try the vitamin B6 trick.  I'll 
write another note telling what happened....

		Dave

Re .18:

>On remembering dreams, the way I feel is that if I remember a dream, it is
>not going to come true.  I feel like all of my other dreams, given time,
>will come true. ... 

Er ...  If you don't remember a dream, how can you tell whether it will come
true or not?  I'd take that to mean "I don't believe any dream I know I had
will come true."

Steve Kallis, Jr.

re: .18

My cousin says that his dreams often come true, unless he tells someone.
Whenever he tells anyone about the dream, it doesn't happen.

		Dave

	    Once I dreamed that I was being attacked by dogs.  I was on
	the ground and the dogs were on top of me.  I said to myself,
	"This isn't happening.  This is just Cheryl getting romantic and
	crawling on top of me.  I'm waking up now."
	    I opened my eyes and there was Cheryl, completely naked, on
	top of me.  She gave me a big kiss and then . . .
						    . . . I woke up for
	real.  Cheryl wasn't there.  I was very disappointed.
			<_Jym_>

re .21:

This is a case of a dream within a dream, which is discussed elsewhere
("Do you dream in colour?")

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re:  .21 & .22
    
    Dreaming that I have wakened is often the way my incubus dreams
    start.  That is one thing that can make then so terrifying.
    
    Marcia

    Re .23:
    
    Marcia, I hope you're now taking some of the suggested precautions.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Another dream enhancer, supposedly, is mugwort (a herb).  If you
    put it in your pillowcase you will have weird dreams -- just remember
    to take it out of your pillowcase before going to the laundramat
    or people give you funny looks, others try to smoke it.  
    
    Also, if you write these letters on a square, boxed peice of paper
    it is supposed to reveal the future in your dreams, and in waking
    if you wear it under your hat:
                             
                  M I L O N
                  I R A G O
                  L A M A L
                  O R A G I
                  N O L I M
    
    I put this in my pillow along with the mugwort and had a restless
    sleep -- then I had a dream that started with the rolling away of
    clouds and then I had an intense dream in which I felt like I knew
    this was the future, but I always forget the most important parts!
    
    Try it. It may work better for you.
                

    re .25:
    
    Mugwort can work, but usually you have to stuff a lot in your pillow.
    One herb shop in Concord (Mass.) used to sell small herb pillows,
    including a "dream pillow" filled with Mugwort.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Since I'm new to this file, perhaps this is discussed elsewhere
    but, Castaneda's books (all 7 of them) go into Dreaming in some
    detail. The first step in acquiring consciousness of your dreams
    is to find something familiar (eg your hands) and then work from
    there. I've had a limited degree of success with this and I must
    admit, the feeling of 'reality' that occurs when you first find
    your hands is little short of mind-blowing.
    
    Along related lines I have over the last few years gradually refined
    my flying skills from leaping along the pavement farther and farther
    (refusing to put my feet down!) and then recently taking off for
    real and soaring around indoors and out. The trick is, don't try.
    The harder I try to do it, the harder the task is. The more you
    let it happen, the easier it all becomes. Ain't it just like life!!
    
    Brian

    
    
      Some time ago I decided I wanted to be aware in my dreams - just
      to see what dreaming was 'really' about.  About 6 months later,
      without aid of any techniques I started being able to communicate
      consciously within my dreams.  One of the most fun experiences
      I've had occurred during a particularly stressful time at work.
      My dream took place at work, interacting with an individual, who
      I was working closely with, when I realized and said in the dream
      to this individual "This is too much, I can't even get away from
      work in my sleep".  At that point he put his hand on my shoulder
      and said,  "I've had the same thing happen to me, what you have
      to do, is take a week off of right away.  I did it and it does help."
    
               
      When I finally took the advice it did help.
    
    
    Lora

	Another interesting type of dream is the "falling dream", where in
    your dream you feel as if you are falling, say off a sheer cliff, and
    wake up the instant you touch the bottom.  Sometimes these dreams will
    happen with a real experience such as falling out of your bed, but not
    always.
	Another interesting fact is there is a native tribe in Papua New
    Ginea which really gets into dreams, apparently they say that for the
    falling dreams, you should try and stay asleep to see what does actually
    happen at the bottom (assuming you havn't rolled off the bed.)

	-- Robert.

    	This phenomenon, of being aware while dreaming, sounds like
    it could be dangerous if perfected. Think of it for a minute. If
    you could see, touch, smell, hear, and taste things in a dream while
    being aware of doing it and directing the actions of the dream,
    it sound alot like being conscious. If you perfected it to the point
    where you couldn't tell the difference, you may find yourself losing
    touch with conscious reality, or at least being able to tell the
    difference. This could create some problems if you for instance,
    wanted to punch someone in the face, thought you were dreaming,
    and then actually did it, only to find out you weren't dreaming.
    I don't think the excuse "Oh, excuse me, I thought I was dreaming"
    would hold up very well either.
    	To get to the point, I suspect that there must be some type
    of internal safety to not allow this to happen. If you some how
    manage to overcome that safety without being able to control it,
    the next thing you'd probably see is those nice young men in there
    clean white suits and there coming to take me away, ha ha, etc.
    etc..........
    
    RAYJ

RE: .30
    
    I think that your fears are unfounded.  I have never heard of a
    lucid dreamer being awake and believing that they were dreaming.
    Since lucid dreaming is rarely "complete", they are sometimes unsure
    when dreaming as to whether or not they are, but they usually
    develop techniques to distinguish.  That you are aware does *not*
    mean that you can't tell the difference.
    
    I would suggest *anyone* interested in this subject to read the
    book *Lucid Dreaming* by Stephen LaBerge.  It is:
    
    	a) Widely available.
    	b) Cheap (its in paperback -- Ballantine, $3.95).
    	c) Readable.
    	d) Complete -- including pointing to other sources, including
    		some obscure ones -- he talks a lot about a Tibetan
    		Yoga of Dreaming which I have never heard of.
    	e) Objective -- he discusses the experiments he has conducted
    		in detail.  These are real, well done, scientific
    		experiments with defensible conclusions, not simply
    		"I tried this, and it seemed that this happened."
    	f) Subjective -- he does not neglect the essential experiential,
    		growth promoting, and even spiritual aspects of lucid
    		dreaming.
    
    This book definitely goes into my top 10 (I don't try to resolve
    further than that) books I've read in the last year.  Furthermore,
    its an easy read.  Easy, enjoyable AND signficant is a rare
    combination, do get a copy and read it.
    
    				Topher

    re:31
    
    >I have never heard of a lucid dreamer being awake and believing
    >that they were dreaming.
    
    	Well, you will now. Long ago when I was about 12 or 13 years
    old, I had re-occuring dreams of being able to fly much like one
    swims through water. I was to the point where I could control it
    and realized I was dreaming. One morning I woke up and decided to
    fly off my bed. It would have been no big deal if it weren't for
    the fact that I was in a bunk bed and happened to have to top bunk.
    I'm lucky that I didn't break my knee's and wrists because I dropped
    straight to the floor on all fours. When my parents heard the noise
    they come running in and asked what happened. I told them I thought
    I could fly and they realized I was dreaming. I have since done
    hang gliding off and on and have not had the flying dreams since.
    The example I gave in .30 was probably a bad one unless you happen
    to take a nap at work and have re-occuring dreams of punching your
    boss in the face.
    
    RAYJ

RE:.32
    
    Let me ammend my previous statement.  "I have never heard of an
    *adult* lucid dreamer being awake and believing that they were
    dreaming."  And let me further qualify by saying that I am sure
    it happens -- but is less likely to happen to an adult lucid dreamer
    than to a non-lucid dreamer.
    
    Children always have trouble distinguishing dreams from reality
    -- the distinction is something we have to learn.  Even adults who
    are "half awake" sometimes are confused about what is dream and
    what is real.  I have not infrequently had the problem of being
    unsure about whether a dim memory is real or dream -- e.g., "Did
    you say something about wanting to do x last week, or did I dream
    that last night?"
    
    A lucid dreamer is someone who has an increased understanding of
    the difference between the waking state and the dreaming.  Hence
    less likely to have problems distinguishing.
    
    				Topher

  Since I've gotten older, when I do have a nightmare I'm aware
  it's just a dream and I can wake myelf up whenever I choose.
  
  However, my scariest dreaming has involved members of my family
  being murdered or already being dead, (they're not!) and paying
  me little visits...  And those dreams are the ones where I wake
  up in a cold sweat.  I had several dreams about one brother
  being killed or dying, where I tried to help/save him and could
  not.  Pretty horrible.
  
  And thank goodness most of my dreams aren't prophetic!  I'd
  have a busy lifestyle indeed!  
  
  Theresa.

    I have had many experiences, usually in the early morning, when
    I cannot distinguish whether or not I am really dreaming.  My most
    common experience is when I know I have to call in sick.  I dream
    it over and over and when I wake up I have to think about whether
    or not I really did call in.
    
    Also, I have other experiences when my dreams seem so real that
    I have to double check when I really wake up.  One experience that
    was frightening was when I was pregnant.  I dreamt that my husband
    was killed in a car accident and it was so real that I woke up in
    a cold sweat and had to call him at work.
    
    And on the subject of pregancy, I have heard that dreams are much
    more vivid during this time.  Any comments?????????
    
    
    Debbie

YES ! This is generally an indication (when conscious fo dreaming) that
    your objective self is very much aware of your psychic self's
    wanderings during the dream state.

    Re .36
    
    Funny you should mention that dreams seem more vivid during pregnancy.
    Although I've always been prone to dreams, it seems that since I've
    become pregnant I dream more consistantly and tend to remember more
    of the dream details.  Maybe it's because you're so much more aware
    of your mental and physical state.
    
    Ann

    	Perhaps you're having some sort of pyschic communication between
    yourself and your unborn child through dreaming?
    
    	Larry
    

Once I had a dream I ate a giant marshmallow,
    
    when I woke up my pillow was gone.
    

    
    Did you happen to watch GHOSTBUSTERS before going to sleep that
    night?
    
    (:^)

RE: .40
    
    There once was a man of Peru,
    Who dreamt he was eating his shoe,
    He awoke in the night,
    In a terrible fright,
    And found it was perfectly true.
    
    				Topher

    reply to 10.36
    
    could  be the increased vitamins that every woman has to take when
    she is pregnant that is giving you the better dream recall.  (b6)

    I've heard that theory before.  It could have some validity.

    When a woman is pregnant, dreams tend to be much more vivid.  Don't
    know if the vitamin theory is true or not, but when I was pregnant
    I had some pretty vivid dreams.
    
    Debbie
    

    I wonder if it's hormonally related?  I know that my own dream states
    are more easily remembered and intense around in my pre-menstrual
    stage, when the body is preparing for pregnancy by approximating
    that state.
    
    Marcia

    When one is aware of dreaming, while dreaming, it is a pretty
    good indication that you are having some sort of "psychic"
    experience, as opposed to eating too much before retiring causing
    some sort of nightmare.
    
    

    I understood this to be "lucid dreaming"... there have been some
    interesting articles on it in Omni.

    ...and to add to Mary's (-.1)...there are several notes in this
    file concerning dreaming and/or lucid dreaming.
      
    Frederick
    

    I am always aware that I am dreaming while I am Dreaming. If I do
    not like the way one of my dreams is going I simply back up my dream
    a little and then head off in a different direction. I have not
    had a nightmare in years! I also dream in black and white and in
    three dimentions all the time. In addition I dream a continous
    story form one night to the next. When I go to sleep at night
    my dreams pick up where they stopped the night before. I do not
    know why I dream this way I just do.
    
    David Suitor
    

    re: .50
      
         If you don't mind my personal comment...I find that rather
    impressive and I suspect that many people I know would envy that
    ability.  If you become just a bit more aware (more than what you
    have indicated) you should be able to consciously "control" your
    dreams, i.e., succeed in doing what lucid dreaming has the potential
    of accomplishing.  You would therefore come very close to 24 hr.
    consciousness (which is one of *my* goals.)
    
    Frederick
    

    RE: .51 (Frederick)
    
    > You would therefore come very close to 24 hr. consciousness (which is
    one of *my* goals.) <
    
    
    Why?
    
    John M. 
    
    

    I am somewhat envious of you both - although I kind of like the
    idea of the changes between one night's dreams and the next.  I
    guess yours are like episodes in a sitcom.  Mine are more like going
    to a different movie each night (although there are repeats and
    themes).
    
    I am not sure why anyone needs 24 hour consciousness.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    re .51
    
    another vote for   WHY   seems things would be very boring if you
    were conscious at all times.  ..to sleep perchance to dream!

    Dreaming is obviously of great concern to all of us.  I scanned
    the notesfiles a few minutes ago and found that the following
    topics had DREAM somewhere in the heading: 2, 97, 107, 137,
    235, 241, 251, 263, 276, 277, 291, 318, 340, 353, 439, 534, and
    618.  I meant to go through and check some of them out but I ran
    out of time.  The following numbers may be of more particular
    interest to the issues raised by the last few.  They are: 342 and
    464 (and I say this without having recently read them.)  
        To answer the question raised by John (.52) then I would refer
    anyone interested in my viewpoint to read 358.76 (which admittedly
    is somewhat tedious) but ESPECIALLY read number 358.74.
        You see, in my view, what is nice about lucid or conscious 
    dreaming (and it obviously isn't a full 24-hours) is that we can
    "take advantage" of the "extra" time and use it for positive
    reality creation, programming (metaphysical) and problem-solving,
    etc.  Why?  Well, since dreaming is (I think, obviously) occurring
    on another "dimension" and while there may be a concept of time
    (there is no "Real" time there,) it is possible (probable) that many
    things that normally take X amount of time in this reality could
    be done in whatever ("illusionary") time it takes to have the dream.  
    Let us say you want to solve a particular issue.  You could then
    "find" an answer while you sleep, wake up and apply whatever it
    is you have learned to you "waking" reality.  I think the concepts
    could be further clarified here but hopefully the gist of what I
    want to say is coming through.
        Rather than have a reality that "just happens" one could have
    a reality that is "created" not only during the waking states by
    also in the "unconscious" (sleep) states.  
        Let me make it clear that this is something *I* want to do.
    I am not "pushing" this onto anyone else.  I am very much aware
    in most of my dreams these days that it *is* a dream.  That much
    I am doing.  What I am not doing "well enough" is either remembering
    the dream nor "taking control" of what it is.
      
    Sweet dreams,
    Frederick
    

>        You see, in my view, what is nice about lucid or conscious 
>    dreaming (and it obviously isn't a full 24-hours) is that we can
>    "take advantage" of the "extra" time and use it for positive
>    reality creation, programming (metaphysical) and problem-solving,
>    etc. 


Frederick,

This desire you have to "take advantage" of what you feel is wasted
time concerns me. I (personally) believe that the dreaming state is
very valuable to us as it is. 

To me dreams often function as a path of communication between the
conscious and the subconscious mind. My dreams tell me about my deepest
fears, sometimes they fulfill forbidden desires, sometimes they give
me a chance to relive an experience and learn what I did wrong the
first time, and sometimes they provide me with food for thought. In 
all cases if my conscious mind had control of my dreaming self this 
valuable communication would not be possible. 

This does not mean that I think one should give up lucid dreaming. I
think that lucid dreaming has lessons to teach as well. But as part
of a balance, not as a replacement for normal dream state.

- vicki

(As an aside, I think another important part of normal dreaming is the
relinquishing of control. The letting go of the state of consciousness. It 
is an act of trust, and faith in ourselves.)

    Re: .56
    
    I wish I'd said that.  You expressed my feelings exactly.
    
    Marcia
    
    As another aside, I have experimented with self-hypnosis.  The
    conscious control of a subconsciously active state (i.e., the trance)
    is what I imagine lucid dreaming would be like (I've never had one).
    But even when I'm "controlling" the interaction with the inner self,
    as in a hypnotic trance, I've found that I must make my programming
    very "loose", and not fill in much detail.  If I specify what I
    want too rigidly, my inner self refuses to cooperate; She wants to
    contribute freely.  I let Her choose important symbols, guide the
    conscious me on journeys, show me how to solve a particular problem,
    even tell me if a particular problem is worth Her time, or if She's
    ready to handle it.
    

    	Getting back a bit to the base note, I had a dream two nights 
    	ago that I was at a grocery store near my parents' house where 
    	I was supposed to buy some bread for my Mom.  There was some 
    	healthy looking bread (I remember it had sunflower seeds in it) 
    	called "Letterman's Bread."  I decided it looked pretty good, 
    	and as I was going to pick up the last loaf David Letterman 
    	walked in the store and asked me to dance.  We were waltzing 
    	around the produce department, and then I "woke up," but I 
    	wasn't awake I was STILL dreaming.  In the I-think-I'm-awake-
    	now dream I was telling my brother about the Letterman dream, 
    	which I thought (while still dreaming) was pretty weird.
    
    	The point of this note is not to show how strange the content
    	of my dreams are, but to further this discussion on being aware
    	you are dreaming, then waking up from that dream only to later
    	find out you're still dreaming.  Were there maybe two levels of 
    	dreamstates involved here???  Or was Dream #2 (where I dreamt I 
    	was awake) a continuation of Dream #1 (where I dreamt I was 
    	dreaming)???
    
    						Carla
    

    re: .56
      
        While I think I understand your position and I respect what
    you have to say, I do not agree with the statements you make.
    You see, while I can agree that sleep is valuable to most of us,
    if I stop and "nit-pick" my way through each statement you make
    about it, you will see where difficulties can arise.
        For starters, many disciplines tell us to reduce the hours we
    sleep and there are many reasons, some obvious and some subtle,
    to justify that.  (Just a week ago or so there was a beautiful
    Korean woman, age 43 [who looked 30,] who is the first woman
    Tae Kwon Do grand master, on television and she related [among
    other things] that she only sleeps about three hours per night.)
    If sleep is "so valuable" then the negative outcome of a lack of
    it should become apparent.
         Now then, even within sleep (which is really where I was in
    my thinking with this,) what you are expressing has very much to
    do with control.  "Control" could very easily be divided between
    dominion and domination.  If you are using control in the domination
    context, then I probably agree with you.  What I sense, though,
    is that you are not grasping the dominion context that is what I am
    referring to.  You can obviously allow thoughts to run randomly
    (which is what I am lamenting about my dreaming) or you can seize
    the opportunity to structure the thoughts into ways that will be
    (I believe) of more benefit.  I would really like to refer you to
    what I have learned from Lazaris (for the most clear explanation
    that I have witnessed) for reasons why.  To understand this, it
    is most helpful to understand that there is an unconscious mind,
    a sub-conscious mind, and a higher-conscious mind along with the
    conscious mind.  Each "mind" has its own function.  While the reference
    you used about the sub-conscious seems fairly accurate to me, there
    is a "grander picture" available which is obviously unclear to you.
    Again, according to Lazaris, our initial entries into physicality
    were at the unconscious level.  This has progressed to the
    sub-conscious level and is now at the conscious level.  I am certain
    that I cannot explain this concept clearly but let me try by saying
    that what is clear to me is that what we "need" to do is to turn
    control over to our sub-conscious, consciously.  I.e., our hearts
    beat sub-consciously, reflexes act sub-consciously, breathing is
    sub-conscious (normally--for all of these, of course.)  What we
    *Can* do is EVERYTHING sub-consciously.  But first we need to be
    conscious that that is what we are doing.  Just doing things
    sub-consciously is not evolution (from where we are) unless we 
    FIRST be conscious.  Once done, we move onto the next step, which
    involves the higher conscious mind.  This then moves back to
    the unconscious and begins a never-ending cycle of evolution.
    Each cycle is an octave of the previous, however.  I apologize
    for lacking the understanding well enough to express the concepts
    in a more-clearly detailed manner...I do not have my notes with
    me, if I did perhaps they would be of service.  However, I have
    "understood" the concept when it has been presented and the rationale
    was complete and reasonable.  
        The point of all these words is to let you know that lucid dreaming
    is not tantamount to "missing value" but, I think, is value-adding,
    instead.  I will look at my notes tonight and see if I wrote down
    anything that I can relate that will help clarify my point.  The
    gist is that there is no need to fear from this step and, "in fact,"
    there may be significant value to gain.
      
    Frederick
    

Well Fredrick I think I understand your position better now. And I can 
see that this is a valid path for you and perhaps many others, but
I believe that for me my approach to dreaming is correct one.

How do I know this? I am a person whose approach to life's problems is 
intuitive. I ask myself what do I feel, rather than what do I think. And 
I believe that this is the right me. Similar to the "ring of truth" note, I 
have found that by listening to my inner voice I can find the beliefs and 
techniques that are right for me. 

In my mind, control (and I did mean domination) equals fear. When I (just
speaking for myself) am afraid to see or learn something, when life does
not fit a rational predictable pattern, when right and wrong cannot be 
made absolute, then I will crush new beliefs, feeling, lessons with control. 
In that case, what I need to do to regain balance is to let go of this control 
and follow wherever the lesson leads. This is why I originally expressed
concern, however I see that is not what you meant. Still I believe that
my way is best for me.

In my dream life, I allow my thoughts to travel "randomly" (not really 
random, there is usually something to be gained) and it is a very valuable 
part of my learning. And for me it is an affirmation of trust in myself. 
BTW I almost always remember my dreams I think this is important. To learn 
something from my dreams I must first remember them. As I said I do believe 
that lucid dreaming is important. The few experiences that I have had had let
a vivid impression on me, but I do think both types of dreaming are important 
for me.

Perhaps eventually I will come to see this "grander picture" but for
now this is not the way for me.

-vicki

RE: .55
    
    Frederick, back to your first note on why you want to lucidly
    dream (24 hr consciousness).
    
    You say:
    
    > Well, since dreaming is (I think, obviously) occrring on another
    > "dimension" and while there may be a concept of time (there is
    > no "Real" time there,) it is possible (probable) that many things
    > that take X amount of time in this reality could be done in
    > whatever ("illusionary") time it takes to have the dream.
    
    First off, it is nowhere near to obvious to me, but it all depends
    on what the quotes around "dimension" means.  To me, dreaming occurs
    in the "right-here-and-now" but is almost entirely concerned with
    the "inside" of our heads rather than with the outside.
    
    Furthermore, if I understand you correctly, you think that it is
    probable that dreams run at a different time rate than the waking
    state.  This is indeed plausible, a priori, and there are a number
    of anecdotes to back it up.  Unfortunately, it now seems, to a
    degree close enough not to matter, not to be true.  It takes the
    same amount of time to do something in a dream as to do it in real
    life -- except that in a dream you can "cut to another scene" like
    in a movie or a TV show.  That is, if it takes you 5 minutes to
    walk down a particular street in real life than it will take you
    5 minutes to walk down that same street in a dream (assuming that
    the dream version is the same length), but you can, in the dream
    start at the beginning of the street, and then cut to where you're
    at the end.
    
    There was traditionally a fair amount of evidence from dream
    laboratories about this: comparing the length of the REM state with
    the amount of time it took for the person to do the same things
    "in reality" and they came out pretty close.  The recent work with
    lucid dreams has clinched it: normally, at least, both ordinary
    and lucid dreams run in "real time".
    
    The good news is: there is a hypnotic technique called accelerated
    time which some people can use (I would estimate about 1 person
    in 4, the qualifications seem to be that one must be better than
    average at the hypnotic state and one must have strong visual imagery).
    Apparent speedups of 60 to one (1 second = 1 minute, 1 minute =
    1 hour) is fairly typical, and there is some fairly good evidence
    that it is "for real" not just a delusion: e.g., practicing something
    internally for one minute at a 60:1 acceleration, seems to provide
    roughly the same benefit as an hour's real practice.  There are
    severe limitiations on what can be done in this state, however,
    and I have not heard of it being used to solve problems.
    
    					Topher

    re: Topher
     
        First off, using quotes or asterisks is usually to separate
    out a word or phrase, etc. out from it's surrounding sentence in
    order to change it's meaning or to give it an emphasis.  Using
    a technique that I developed while reading these notes (in other
    words, by observation, mostly) I use asterisks around a word or
    phrase when I would like that phrase to be italisized.  I use 
    quotes when I *may have* a different connotation or denotation
    than the normal use of the word or I will use them to quote someone
    else's usage (I think it is somewhat nebulous, actually.)  In the
    case of my note to which you are referring, I used quotes around
    dimension because I did NOT want to be pinned down by the nit-pickers
    over my use of the word.  To me, and to most of the people I observe
    in my reality, sleep is an obvious case of altered consciousness
    (and I recognize that this may not hold for shamans, etc.--I said,
    "most,") and I further believe that "most" of us see sleep as being
    on another level, or, dimension, than what we are on (when we aren't
    asleep.  Now, I do NOT want all the scientists in the world to start
    telling me what dimension really means (to them, of course) so I would
    really prefer to drop the conversation here.  You know, Topher,
    though it is clear to me that you are one of those who wants to
    analyze something to its nth degree, I am one of those who doesn't
    really have the need for it.  If you say something, I will think
    about it (yes, I think for myself) and I will sort out my truth
    from it.  If you communicated poorly, then it's just too bad (for
    either/and you or me.)  There are just too many more things to deal
    with for me in my life than the fine-tooth, nit-picking, precision-
    demanding clarification required by people who are into thinking
    as a way of avoiding FEELING.  This does not necessarily mean you,
    so please do not take it personally.  So, to make a long paragraph
    short, the quotes were for the purposes of a loose interpretation.
      
         As for your other point about time, your comments are appreciated.
    It is clear to me (hah!) from reading what you wrote, that the answer
    (based on what you say) is that there *can be* real or skewed time
    during sleep.  SO, since time is MORE variable in sleep than in
    awake states, there is nothing to refute my statements about that.
    
         To quote from the Bartles & Jaymes commercials: "We thank you
    for your support."
      
    Frederick
    

RE: .62
    
    Whoa.  You seem to feel somewhat insulted.  You used your quotes
    exactly as I thought, to indicate that you did not mean the word
    in its technical sense.  That was fine, and I was not trying to
    nit pick you about it and insist that you use it in its mathematically
    precise form.
    
    The problem is you didn't give me any idea of what you did mean
    by it.  While I could think of meanings which made sense I could
    not think of any which were to me "obvious".  Hence my statement.
    
    I'm still a bit confused.  If by "dimension" you meant an altered
    state of consciousness (i.e., a different way of looking/thinking
    about the world) then you are right, it is obvious once that meaning
    is made clear.
    
    If by a different "dimension" you mean a more or less distinct and
    independent universe, then I still say that this is not obviously
    true.  I'm not trying to argue whether or not it *is* true, (I don't
    believe it, and I think I have good reasons not to believe it, but
    I don't think that it is a stupid belief, and it was not my intent
    to debate it), it is the "obvious" part that set me back.
    
    Much too often, things which are "obvious" to us are the things
    that we haven't thought about: things where we haven't looked at
    any alternatives.  In effect, things that we simply assume.  We
    all have to assume things, but one shouldn't assume that others
    assume the same things, and thus, one needs to understand what one
    is assuming.
    
    I suppose your reaction (with some justice) will be that I am analyzing
    things "to the nth degree" again.  I would say, rather, not that
    I like to analyze things but that I like to look carefully at things
    (which includes analysis among other tools) and thus to appreciate
    them for what they *are* rather than for what I want them to be,
    or for what the resemble but in actuallity are not.
    
    					Topher

    This is weird..but this is what always happens to me whenever I
    take a nap. I always dream that I am up and I see everything around
    me but I cannot move..In my dream I tell myself it's a dream and
    I tell myself not to worry but yet I cannot relax.  I panic and
    I  start shaking my head to wake myslef up..For some reason I do
    not like these dreams..probably because I think that I am paralyzed.
    To me they are like nightmares..Now I don't take naps because I'm
    afraid of these dreams.

    RE: .64
    
    The condition you describe is called sleep paralysis.  It happens
    to me from time to time and it is HELLISH.  The stories I could
    tell you...
    
    Try this:  When you get to the point where you realize you are asleep
    and cannot wake yourself up, *resign yourself* to not waking up
    (this is hard, but you can do it).  You will wake up immediately!
    
    John M.

    Re:  .64 & .65  I have experienced sleep paralysis also, and yes,
    it is frightening.  
    Does anyone know what causes it.  When it happens am I asleep
    or awake or inbetween both states of mind.

RE: .66    
    
    We've discussed this elsewhere in this conference but the answer
    is simple enough (and important enough that people understand)
    that I'll post it again.
    
    When we enter REM sleep (the stage of sleep in which most dreams
    occur) a sort of switch is thrown "low down" in the brain.  This
    switch disconnects our voluntary muscles from control of higher
    brain function.  The reason for this is fairly obvious: if it
    didn't happen our bodies would move the same way as our dream
    bodies are in the dream, and we would very likely hurt ourselves.
    
    Occasionally, as we come partially or fully awake or aware, these
    switches take a little while to turn back on and we discover we
    are paralyzed.
    
    This happening occasionally, however frightening, is normal and
    indicitive of absolutely nothing.  If it happens frequently it
    may (or may not) indicate a form of narcolepsy (sleep pathology)
    and should be checked with a doctor -- preferably a sleep specialist
    or a neurologist.  Chances are though, even if frequent it doesn't
    indicate anything wrong.
    
    					Topher

    RE: .67 (Topher)
    
    That is a good explanation of why a person may not be able to move,
    but doesn't explain why a person might be unable to *awaken.*  I
    have been known to clap my hands, make my infamous "dolphin noise"
    etc. in order to get people to wake me up (which only works if there
    is somebody there, alas!).

    re .64
    
    Reincarnation?  Could be that you in a previous life were paralyzed.
    
    Who knows the depths of the sub conscience mind, I am not sure!
    
    Dave

    This is extremely out of place in the sequence of this conference,
    but I just recently began reading some of the VAXnotes conferences
     and I wanted to reply to .11 in which Bill mentioned that he was
    unable to recall any of his dreams.  I also have zero recall of
    my dreams too.  In case anyone is interested, I read somewhere that
    the inability to recall any of your dreams is due to your conscious
    mind blocking out recall because the dreams may be upsetting or
    too revealing.  In other words, lack of recall may be due to your
    conscious mind doing the censoring for you.  Of course that's just
    one theory out of millions, but I thought someone (especially Bill
    if he is still reading VAXnotes conferences) might be interested
    in another theory.
    
    Dawn.

    One man's perspective...    SOUL TRAVEL
    
    It starts with the soul being the real you, the body a temporary
    vehicle used for life experiences.  The soul alters it's awareness
    during the sleep (and some waking instances also) and experiences
    it's existence on other planes.  This occurs all the time, but is
    only remembered occassionally by most untrained travellers when
    awakening from sleep.  
    
    When the soul is free of the physical body it is closer to being
    in it's own element.  The view is that the physical plane is the
    dream state to free soul.  It works on the lower planes (physical,
    astral, causal, and mental) to learn how perfect itself so that
    it can attain higher levels of awareness; perfecting itself to move
    closer to god.  It exists on all planes at the same time, but is
    usually only aware of one plane at a time.  However, with training
    and practice, it is possible to achieve total awareness of all planes
    at the same time.  Whenever soul is not in it's own element, it
    is effect in a dream state of it's own.
    
    Soul can alter the waking dream (life on the physical plane) with free
    will.  However, from birth we are subtley taught limitations of spiritual
    nature of life.  This is not intentional, but rather passed on from
    generation to generation as a means of teaching survival on the
    physical plane.  Small children and the very old are least effected
    by the constraints of being in the physical as they are least exposed
    to the expectations/training of those around them.  They are, in
    effect, the most naturally spiritual.
                                         
    Dreams are symbollic and of many types.  There are no universal
    meanings to them because each symbol that an individual uses has
    been taught to him by family, schooling, society, etc.  Therefore,
    only the individual can interpret his own dreams.  It would require
    recording them over time and watching for recurring things.  Eventually
    some of the symbols will become obvious in their meaining.  The
    use of dreams can be a valuable means of resolving problems in a
    person's life.  But it must be remembered that they are symbols
    and can easily be misinterpreted on first glance.  Half truths can
    be deduced by such misinterpretations; things which seems to fit
    but prove to be wrong in the long run.  Your mind assigns meaning
    to the symbols that you encounter.  It is trying to protect you
    from too much spiritual truth as you still will have to exist and
    function in the physical world.  If you practice spiritual techniques,
    you can alter the limitations of the mind and gain greater spiritual
    awareness.
    
    Enough for now.TC

    I read a book once that had some suggestions for inducing lucid dreams. 
    One of them was to look around while awake, and stop and ask yourself
    "Am I dreaming?".  Do this as many times as you can during waking
    hours... the idea being if you do that enough while your awake, you'll
    eventually do it in a dream.  And if you question whether or not your
    dreaming *in* a dream, you'll KNOW you're dreaming!
    
    Another was to count 1 I'm dreaming,  2 I'm dreaming, 3 I'm dreaming...
    as you try to fall asleep.  Supposedly when you finally fall asleep
    you'll still be counting when you start to dream.  I guess this would
    only work in the morning when your dreams come sooner.  I tried this
    several times, but I'd always end up losing count near the point of
    sleep, and then I'd wake up trying to figure out what number I was on!
    
    As for remembering dreams..... I found that singing a little song in
    your head that has the word 'dream' in it while trying to go to sleep,
    can help you remember.  Like "Dream Weaver" or "Dream On", or the song
    that goes "dream dream dream.... dre-e-e-e-eam..."  I know it sounds
    stupid, but it really works!  I've been doing this for years!  Also it
    might help to picture the word "DREAM" written in giant letters with
    your eyes closed as you do this.
    
    |KS|
    

Hi,
	When he first discovered lucid dreams, Oliver Fox happened upon the fact
when he was dreaming that he was walking down his street, but noticed that one 
the paving stones was the wrong way around - then it "clicked" that he must be
dreaming...
	Working with this principle he used to keep a pen & notebook handy by 
bed, and after waking would immediately note all the ridiculous points of the
dream he had just had, i.e. all the facts that were impossible therefore would
confirm that he was dreaming. After a few days, this habit of habitually picking
his dreams to pieces filtered into the time when he was actually asleep and he
found that he would frequently be able to recognise his dreams...

								- JIM CAD*

    When I was a little girl, I'd have nightmares that I'd get myself out
    of by declaring that I was only dreaming and none of this was really
    happening.... then the nightmare would go away and I'd begin a
    different dream..

Hi,

When I tried a little dream work I found that the fact my mind was dwelling on
such ideas induced some nasty effects in "normal" dreams. For example, I have on
a few occasions *dreamt* that I knew I was dreaming (see what I mean)? In one 
case I dreamt that I had become aware of my dream and soon after (as usual) woke
up... however, this was so realistic that (in my dream) I assumed I *had* woken
up, and when a nightmare-like occurence happened next (can't remember what), it
scared the willies out of me! Then, I should say, I *did* wake up, in rather a
flustered state.... PHEW!

								- JIM CAD*

P.S. Just remembered another where I dreamt I had woken up and was in a rather
strange room, there was a bed in the corner, which I advanced slowly towards...
then the figure in the bed sat upright abruptly - it was me!!!! Again, said
willies were scared out of me! Yikes!	:-|

    It gets confusing sometimes, doesn't it...  thats where your sense of
    humor comes in. 

Hi,

	That's strange, just remembering my note has reminded me that a dream-
	recognition happened just in the last couple of days, last night I 
	think! Unfortunately I woke up just a second or two after revelation
	time.
	Another thing that has influenced my dreams is the UFO Conspiracy stuff,
	but unfortunately every time *that* is included, my dreams are rather
	sinister - for example I dreamt that a UFO was hovering outside the 
	front of my house, and I *knew* that they wanted to take me, I could
	see the silhouette of the ship through the wibbly glass front-door
	window, I tried to hide and fled to the back of the house but there was
	a ship there too... I had no means of escape and I *knew* that *they*
	could read my thoughts - there was this horrible shrill warbling sound
	too! Like I said I have had a few similar "Zlorbs-From-Planet-X-Want-To-
	Catch-The-Cad*" type dreams, it gets a bit tiring...

	BTW (Mary S.) - I'm in "pseudo-mourning" because Fields of the Nephilim
	have split up	:-(((   (into 2 new groups though, hope they're as good)

								- JIM CAD*

    Oh... I'm so sorry to hear that, Jim..

    Hi, I have never written before but all this reading about dreams has
    reminded me that as long as I can remember, I have occasionally had
    some rather terrifying nightmares.  Most of them when I was a young
    child, probably because I have a very vivid imagination.  Anyway, the
    point I wanted to make was that when the dream starts to get really
    uncomfortable, such as the hairy monster is about to grab me and there
    is no place to hide, the realization suddenly hits me that this is
    after all just a dream and I have developed a method of awakening
    myself.  I close my eyes tightly in the dream, and apparently I am
    actually doing it, because I then awaken.  It works every time.
    
    		Pat
    

    Since its a dream why not confront whatever it is? Your mind is trying
    to tell you something, but what? Tell yourself that you can always get
    out by awakening thebn stick around to find out what its all about.
    My problem is, I always wake up whether I want to or not. 
    
    I'll plant a little seed in your subconscious. hit next if you don't
    want it planted!
    
    One of these days you will shut your eyes tight, then open them to
    find yourself in bed but still dreaming. :^)
    
    johN