Conference hydra::dejavu

    That sounds like the name of the next Buddha to appear in
    this world cycle.
    
    There are pictures depicting this coming Avatar as a fat man with
    a round belly with a lot of kids clambering around him.  If this
    is the one you are talking about, you are a few aeons early
    because the current Buddha is Gautama Buddha.
    
    Anyway, there are some sects in Taiwan practising something called
    Tao and linking Lord Maitreya to this practice.  Maybe u might
    want to look in that direction.
    
    Hope that helps.
        
    
    Regards

    I am familiar with Master Maitreya.  He is an Ascended being and
    is the Overseer of the White Ray.  The lessons that I am familiar
    with are communications from him through the physical and trance
    adeptships of Rev. Keith Milton Rhinehart.

    Linda

    The reason I had asked about Maitreya was the following full page
    ad from the N.Y Times:
    
    		THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE.
    			HOW WILL WE RECOGNIZE HIM?
    		Look for a modern man concerned with modern problems-
    political, social, and economic. Since July 1977, the Christ has
    been emerging as a spokesman for a group or community in a well
    known modern country. He is not a religious leader but an educator
    in the broadest sense of the word- pointing the way out of our
    present crisis.
    We will recognize him by his extaordinary spiritual potency, the
    universality of his viewpoint, and his love for all humanity. He
    comes not to judge, but to aid and inspire.
    
    		WHO IS THE CHRIST?
    Throughout history, humanity's evolution has been guided by a group of
    enlightened men, the masters of wisdom. They have remained largely in
    the remote desert and mountain places of earth, working mainly through
    their disciples, who live openly in the world.
    This message of Christ's reapparance has been given primarily by such
    a disciple trained for for his task for over twenty years.
    At the center of this "Spiritual Hierarchy" stands the World Teacher
    Lord Maitreya known by Christians as the Christ...
    
    			WHEN WILL WE SEE HIM?
    He has not as yet declared his true status and his location is known
    to only a very few disciples. One of these has announced that soon
    the Christ will acknowledge his identity and within the next 2 months
    will speak to humanity through a worldwide television and radio
    broadcast. His message will be heard inwardly, telepathically by all
    people in their own language.
    From that time with his help, we will build a new world.
    
    			The Tara Press
    			Dartmouth Park Road
    			London
    
    This appeared as a full page ad in The New York Times, April 25, 1982.

    
    
    Jim....for a minute there I thought this was a *recent* ad and 
    couldn't believe that they put the exact same thing in the papers
    again.  This advertised event was well publisized in 1982 and
    the spokesperson for this was a man named Benjamin Creme.  He
    actually predicted the exact day that this event was to occur
    but it never did.  Not sure what he is doing these days.  Have
    you heard or seen anything current from him or the Tara group?
    
    Carole

    Lord Maitreya is an Ascended Master of the Great White Brotherhood 
    (White standing for "White Light") and a Paradise Son. He is the 
    representation of the Universal Christ for this system of worlds.
    
    There are printed works about him.
             
    In Light
    I AM,
    Altraea

    I was looking for something unrelated in the N.Y Times and came
    upon this- I guess what surprises me, is I have never heard of
    Maitreya or Tara Press before or since, and my local library shows
    no references in their card catalogues. Was this a hoax?
    
    				Jim

    
    
    Jim....I don't believe it was a hoax.  I think that Creme and
    Tara Press were quite sincere in all of this.  I haven't heard
    or seen anything from them since that time.
    
    Carole

    If Creme and Tara Press, and Maitreya are indeed sincere, why
    take out a full page ad in the N.Y Times, promise a worldwide
    (telepathic?) broadcast and then, for all intents and purposes
    become invisible to the general public; apparently there are initiates
    out there who know what's going on, but as in any philosophy or
    system, why the secretiveness; the obvious question is what are they
    trying to hide? Is it fear of the moral majority(sic)?
    If Maitreya is truly an evolved entity, I can't see where fear would
    even be a factor.
    
    				Jim

    
    
    Jim,
    
    At the time (1982), Creme was making public appearances (free)
    and sharing this information with people through the spoken and
    written word.  They had actually named the date when this
    worldwide event was to take place.  The day came and went and
    it never occurred.  I think they vanished from the public eye
    mostly out of embarrassment.  I don't think their philosophy
    is much of a secret - I think it has it's base in Theosophy and
    much could be learned by reading its history.  Creme and Tara
    Press were mainly focused on this one event.
    
    Carole

"Way back" in the late 60's the school of meditation I was studying
with ran into the Great White Brotherhood.  There was quite a bit
of dialogue, channelling and such and at the time found it pretty
interesting.  There was talk about an Ascended Master who had returned
to earth and would manafest himself at a later time.

My feelings now are much more diverse.  Seems to me this aspect of
the GWB came into the collective unconsicous and is manafesting itself
right about now, not as a person, but rather as a wo/mankind's healing
force.  This is a soul healing or spiritual healing aspect and I
suspect there is much more to it than that.

The thing which I find most interesting is the GWB just seemed to
pop up collectively for the dozen or so of meditating one evening.
We were all spiritually and metaphysically naieve.  It may have
been a year or two later to find that groups all over the place
had been contacted.  Odd it should be making the "rounds" once again.

FWIW

L

    RE .10 (GWB RETURNS)
    
    I guess this is what I'm looking for. Do you recall a time frame
     when the GWB contacted your meditation group? Could it have
    been April,1982?
    
    P.S
    	Thanks for your input Carole.
    Have you heard anything from Sedona lately?
    
    					Jim
    

    RE .11
    
    .10 stated:
    
    " "Way back" in the late 60's the school of meditation I was studying   
    with ran into the Great White Brotherhood." 
    
    April 82 is about 15 years later.
    
    	- Bill

I think Elizebeth Claire Prophett and her followers are supposed to be
connected with the GWB in some way.  Not sure though...

Terry

    re .11 When did GWB contact us?  Best As I can recall it was
    juat about 20 years ago; late 1969 early 1970.  The contacts
    were made with several groups of us studying at the same centre
    in Orange County Calif.  Some of the sessions *may* have been
    taped though I do recall that several taping sessions came out
    with nothing but white noise ;^)....seriously.
    
    As far as I know, none of our group(s) published any material
    based on these sessions.  We mostly just went our own separate
    ways by mid 1970.  
    
    Who knows?  Just curious, I guess.
    
    FWIW
    
    L

    The Ascended Masters of the Great White Brotherhood are always
    available for telepathic communciation with any and all sincere
    seekers. The reason they made contact with Larry's meditation group was
    because of the light matrix they created by meditating together.
    
    St. Germaine, El Morya, Lord Maitreya, Jesus, Gautama, The Maha Cohan,
    Chananda, Nada, Mother Mary, Sanat Kumara, Kuan Yin, Serapis Bey and
    Hilarion are just a few of the more well known Masters. By meditating 
    upon the Masters name or image for a long enough period (ususally not 
    just one meditation) you can make contact if you are a sincere aspirant.
    
    The GWB is just one of many groups that is trying to guide and help 
    develop spiritual growth on this planet. 
    
    In Light
    I AM,
    Altraea 
    

    			Thank you
    
    				Jim

   Jim,

   The Aquarian Foundation has several lessons by Maitreya through the
   physical and trance adeptship of Keith Milton Rhinehart that are available to
   the public.

   The seances in which Keith Rhinehart was the medium were held under strict 
   test conditions and physical phenomena occurred.  The majority of the
   seances were recorded on audio tape (some even on video tape).  I have many 
   of these lessons on cassette tape and they are incredible.  When the tapes 
   are played I can feel the whole vibration of the room change to that of a 
   seance vibration, and I feel that the lesson "permeates" all my levels of 
   consciousness.

   If you are interested in acquiring a tape, the branch or study group nearest
   you should have some.....  If you are not sure of where one may be,
   feel free to contact me off-line.....

   Linda

    
    Is there a connection between the GWB and the Rosicrucians?  I have a
    few of the latter organization books and seem to recall reading about
    the GWB in connection with them at one point a few years ago.
    
    Cindy

    Yes Cindy,
    there is a connection between the Great White Brotherhood and the
    Rosicrucians....the GWB sponsored the Rosicrucian order as it has
    sponsored the Theosophical Society and various other groups.
    
    In Light,
    I AM
    Altraea
    

    Greetings Altraea,
    
    I'm unclear on what you mean by the GWB 'sponsored' the Rosicrucians
    et al.  Could you explain further?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ro
    

    Greetings to you, Ro!
    
    The GWB is a body of Ascended Masters and Celestial Beings responsible
    for disseminating the appropriate information (mysteries) to the life
    stream chosen by them (by virtue of their personal evolution and light)
    to found whatever organization (Rosicrucians, Theosophical Society, I
    AM movement- "I am not speaking of Elizabeth Claire Prophet, but rather
    Guy Ballard"; etc.) The GWB is the Celestial Brotherhood responsible
    for Earth's lifestreams spiritual evolution and guidance as well as the
    rest of this system of worlds and others. Those that get the most guidance
      are those that ask.
    
    In Light and Love,
    I AM
    Altraea
    

    Thanks Altraea.  I am familiar with the GWB through the teachings of
    White Eagle and other sources, was just unclear on the term
    'sponsored'.  Thanks for your clarification.
    
    Do you believe there is a connection between ACIM (A Course in
    Miracles) and the GWB?
    
    Ro
    

    I AM sure there IS!, Ro.
    
    Namasthe,
    Altraea

    
    re:                      <<< Note 1199.5 by CIMNET::ATKINSON >>>
                             -< Universal Christ >-

    >Lord Maitreya is an Ascended Master of the Great White Brotherhood 
    >(White standing for "White Light") and a Paradise Son. He is the 
    >representation of the Universal Christ for this system of worlds.
    
    Is there more than one "representation of the Universal Christ"
    for this system of worlds? Are Mairreya and Jesus individual, distinct 
    entities? Has the representation of the Universal Christ sorta
    changed hands in the last 2k years? 
    
    I'm not presenting these questions as a challenge. I would sincerely
    like an expanded explanation of .5, if possible. 
    
    Neal/B

    Altraea,
    
       You said in an earlier reply that the GWB is responsible for Earth's 
    lifestream's spiriyual evolution. To whom/what are they responsible? Is
    there someone/thing higher than they, to whom they answer?
    
    Gil

    
    Hi there, Gil!
    
    Cindy

    Greetings, Cindy!
    
      May you have a blessed day.
    
    Gil
    
    ps
    
      Yes, after having read (though not necessarily agrred with) Contance 
    Cumbey's stuff some years back. I just couldn't ignore this topic.
    Also, please forgive the typo; it should read "spiritual evolution"
    not "spitiyual evolution". In any case, my curiousity was piqued by the
    topic name. 

    Altraea,
    
      It seems that you have not had the time to answer my questions for
    you. When you do have the chance please reply to me via vaxmail as I am
    not a regular follower of this conference.
    
    Thanks,
    Gil

Re: .24

Neal,

We needn't worry too much about "this system of worlds," as humanity in 
general does not yet have the foggiest notion of the organization of our 
own planet.  

There is one Christ.  The Christ and the Master Jesus are not one and 
the same, though they are very close.  The Christ holds the position of 
World Teacher.  He is the Master of all Masters, and the head of the 
planetary Hierarchy.  Jesus, who is also a Master, is a disciple of the 
Christ.  Though at first glance this may seem to contradict Christian 
scripture, it really doesn't.  It simply means that people haven't yet 
understood the context of some of the statements in the New Testament; 
nor have they understood that the New Testament was recorded by men who 
were trying themselves to understand, just as we are trying.

In Jesus' most recent incarnation, the life which is recorded in part in 
the New Testament, he was "overshadowed" by the Christ.  This doesn't 
mean he was possessed or channeled or anything of that nature;  Jesus 
was in control of his life.  He did, though, volunteer to represent the 
Christ and to allow the Christ work through him.  This was a joint 
effort, and they were both fully present, though only Jesus inhabited 
the body.  

All life is expanding.  We don't simply try our best, go to heaven, and 
then sit there for eternity.  We are on a great Path.  The Christ is on 
an even greater Path.  The position He holds in our planetary scheme 
will be filled by one of his disciples when He moves on to further his 
journey elsewhere.  Nothing is stagnant.  The Christ will return, as was 
stated in the Bible, and His disciples will return as well.  This is 
what was meant by, "the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  The position of 
World Teacher has not changed over the past two thousand years.  It is 
my intuitive opinion that it will not change until after the 
reappearance of the Christ.  His return will allow Him to finalize His 
work, and once accomplished, an equally capable disciple (another of the 
Master's) will take on that responsibility.

They (those who comprise the Hierarchy) are all returning to physical 
manifestation, but not until a sufficient number of humanity have 
reached a level of sensitivity whereby the Christ and His disciples will 
be recognized.  No sacrifices this time; no coddling parables.  This 
time it will be time to get down to some serious work. (This is not to 
say that the previous work was not serious, but rather that humanity was 
not in a position to be very serious about it.  What is happening now 
could never have occured without the appearance of the Christ through 
Jesus.)  There will be plain, uncompromising talk and action, and many 
there will be, especially Christians, who will deny Him once again.  But 
this time it won't matter.  He will be recognized by Christians and 
non-Christians alike, and in such numbers that the few doubters will not 
have an impact.  Anyone who has begun to tap into the light of their own 
soul, the light which is in everyone, will recognize Him to be the 
embodiment of that light.

There is much, much more that could be discussed in terms of what all of 
this will mean in the years to come, as well as the changes which are now 
occuring in preparation, but hopefully this somewhat addresses your 
questions.  Though your questions were not addressed to me, the request 
seemed sincere, so here is a response.  Many people will probably take 
issue with many of the things I've stated.  Since debate is not my goal, 
however, I will not defend any of the ideas presented here.  

Jeff

    re:.24
     
    The difference is:
    
    Jesus is the representation of the Personal Christ for this system
    of worlds as he was incarnated in a physical body to show the rest
    of humanity the way to accomplish ascension and not that he would
    personally take on their "sins" (negative momentums) and absolve them
    of all responsibility.  Jesus also holds the office, with St. Germaine 
    of World Teachers.
    
    Lord Maitreya is the representation of the Universal Christ for this
    system of worlds and was not incarnated here in a physical body...but
    holds the Christic focus in his light body.
    
    I hope this explains it for you....if not continue to ask.
    
    In Light and Love 
    I AM
    Altraea

    Where do Confucius, Bhuddha, Muhammad, etc. fit in?
    What about American Indian, Aborigine, etc. traditions/leaders?
    
    
    /bruce

    
    Re .31, I'm sure they don't feel slighted about not being mentioned in
    .29 and .30. Why so defensive?
    
    Neal/B

    Hi Jeff,
    
    Thank you for entering .29, once again your words 'ring true' for me. 
    I can grasp them more easily than some of the other material I'm
    working with (although the message is the same).  Your efforts are
    appreciated.
    
    Love to you,
    
    Ro

    .25
     
    The GWB is responsible to the representation of the Father/Mother
    residing in the sun of this system...Helios/Vesta and they are
    responsible to Sanat Kumara (creator God for Earth), The Archangels,
    The Elohim, and so forth, all the way to the Father/Mother God (Alpha/
    Omega).
    
    In Light and Love,
    I AM
    Altraea

Re: .25 (Gil)

Ask and ye shall...  oh, never mind. :-)

The GWB is a cute name for the planetary Hierarchy, which is one of 
several centres of activity making up the total of our planetary Life.
Actually the Hierarchy is not responsible for Humanity's evolution... 
Humanity is.  Part of Their work, though, is to assist Humanity in that 
process.  

Earth's "lifestreams" consist of more than just Humanity; there are 
lives both greater and lesser (in terms of the evolutionary process) 
than Humanity, and all of this responsibility does not fall on the 
shoulders of the Hierarchy, though They do impact all of the lives on 
the planet, as does Humanity.  No kingdom within the planetary Life is 
fully responsible for any other kingdom, though there are definitely 
relationships which foster the evolutionary process.  The planet as a 
whole is the expression of a Life (as are all planets and stars) of 
which we are a part.  This Life is responsible for the evolution of 
*all* the centres of activity within the planet, and the evolution of 
these centres contributes to the evolution of the one Life of which we 
are a part.

Jeff

P.S.  We metafizzlers do ourselves a diservice with all of our fancy 
name-dropping, titles, etc., when most who use such names have no real 
knowledge from which to speak...  It sounds good (in some people's 
opinion), and sometimes people even buy into what is being said... But 
once it gets beyond practical application it is really of no value. If 
we can't go home and live a better life after hearing such stuff, then 
what have we really gained?  The single most important reason for 
delving into areas which lie beyond practical application is to give us 
a glimpse of the possible organization of things, and possible 
relationships among various lives; and from this we can begin to grasp 
correspondences which might help us understand ourselves and our world a 
little better.  Hope this helps...

    Altraea and Jeff,
    
      Thank you for your prompt replies. It would appear that am even more
    ignorant than I first supposed, since your answers only cause me to
    have more questions.
    
      Altraea, most of the entities that you name are unfamiliar to me.
    Could you please give me more information about them? Helios/Vesta
    are unknown to me. Sanat Kumara was mentioned in Constance Cumbey's
    book but I cannot recall what was said regarding this personage.
    You use the terms "Archangels" and "Elohim" in a way that seems
    different from the way I understand them in the Judeo-Christian view
    that adhere to. Could you explain the hierarchy and how it works?
    
     Jeff,  no offense, but you lost me, guy. I understand very little of
    what you wrote .35. What is theplanetary Hierarchy? How does this
    compare to what Altraea has entered?  What do you mean by "kingdoms"
    and "centres" What would be a "practical application" of all this?
    
      Thanks again. As you can tell from personal name, I probably won't
    agree with what you believe. But I am just trying to understand what
    you believe and why. If there is to be debate about it, it will not
    come from this quarter (not now, anyway :-)).
    
    Gil

Gil,

>     Jeff,  no offense, but you lost me, guy. 

Oops.  Well let's see if I can find you...

>   ......................What is theplanetary Hierarchy? How does this
>    compare to what Altraea has entered?  What do you mean by "kingdoms"
>    and "centres" What would be a "practical application" of all this?

In the next reply I will try to answer your questions, with the 
exception of the comparison.  I don't think it would be appropriate or 
serve any good purpose to get into that.

>      Thanks again. As you can tell from personal name, I probably won't
>    agree with what you believe. But I am just trying to understand what
>    you believe and why. If there is to be debate about it, it will not
>    come from this quarter (not now, anyway :-)).
    
Fair enough. :-)

Jeff

Being "created in the image of God" means that we are structured in 
basically the same manner.  Our planet has a number of primary 
"components" which are analogous to our structure.  Our bodies have 
many, many components, but the primary components are comparable in 
function to the primary components of the planet.  When I use the term
"centre of activity," I'm referring to a primary component.

We have a head, and the planet has its correspondence to that which 
serves as the directing, controlling mechanism for the planet.  Some 
call this centre by the name Shamballa.  We have a heart, and the 
planet likewise has its corresponding centre.  We think of heart energy 
in terms of love and service.  This is also the nature of the planetary 
heart centre.  One name for this centre is the Hierarchy.

The term "kingdom" refers to the life of a particular centre.  The 
primary kingdoms for our planet include the mineral, vegetable and 
animal kingdoms, Humanity, the Hierarchy, and Shamballa; all part of a 
beautifully ordered system.  Shamballa is the Will of God.  The 
Hierarchy is the Love of God.  Humanity is the home of active, creative 
intelligence.  The Hierarchy, being the heart centre and the Love of 
God, is the responsibility of the Christ and the other Masters.

The practical application of this type of knowledge rests in our ability 
to learn about ourselves and the grand expanding creation of which we 
are apart.  By recognizing and using these kinds of correspondences we 
can learn more about our role in the evolutionary process, and work in a 
more responsible manner toward fulfilling that role.

Jeff

This I got from a mail message from a friend...might shed some interesting
Light on the present day Maitreya "Wannabe" or "IsSuretoBe"...
    
    -Arthur >>>----
                  |
                  |
                  v
    
Message-ID: <9004102001.AA18464@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 90 13:01:42 PDT
From: David Oberman <sabu@luciano.stanford.edu>
To: subgenius%mc.lcs.mit.edu@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: "Be excellent to each other, and party on!"
 
From the 4/10/90 _Stanford Daily_:
 
            HISTORIC GLOBAL MEETING SET FOR APRIL
 
Dignitaries from around the world gather for conference with "World Teacher"
 
The global transformation we are now seeing is the result of an extra-
ordinary stimulus for change:  the presence of Maitreya, the World Teacher.
Long awaited as the Messiah, the Mahdi, Maitreya Buddha, Krishna, and the
Christ, he is a teacher and guide for all humanity- those of every religion
and no religion.
 
                      Working Behind the Scenes
 
Since 1977 Maitreya has lived in London as a seemingly ordinary man, working
behind the scenes worldwide to awaken a new spirit in humanity.  He has 
been emerging gradually into full public view so as not to infringe our
free will.
 
                      Forecasts of Global Changes
 
A major step in Maitreya's emergence occurred in mid-1988 when one of his
close associates began giving interviews to a London-based journalist.
Released to the press and published in the monthly magazine, _Share
International_, these interviews include Maitreya's analyses of global
trends, forecasts of world events, and his spiritual teachings.  Weeks or
months ahead of time he forecast, among others:  the ceasefire between
Iran and Iraq; the release of Nelson Mandela; earthquakes in Armenia,
California, and China; worldwide arms reductions; the fall of totalitarian
ideologies; and the poll tax revolt in Britain.
 
                      Meetings with World Figures
 
In preparing for his emergence, Maitreya has met privately with groups
of journalists and influential world figures.  They are ready to reveal
their experience of him and to implement his plans once he emerges into
the world area.  That time has now arrived.
 
                      Unusual Acts of Nature
 
According to one of his close associates, in the weeks ahead Maitreya is
forecasting an acceleration in the pace of global change, a series of
unusual acts of nature- including the flooding of the U.K. Parliament
and volcanic eruptions in Russia, Sicily, and Canada- and a mounting
atmosphere of expectancy.  This will lead to the moment when Maitreya
comes forward.
 
                  Maitreya to Attend Conference in London
 
A large conference in London is planned for late April.  Invitations have
been sent to hundreds of people, including royalty, representatives of
government (ambassadors, diplomats, etc.), journalists, scientists, and 
others who have met Maitreya.  At this gathering he will present his
credentials as the World Teacher for all humanity.  It is hoped that this
conference will soon lead to Maitr
Maitreya's declaration before the world of his true status.
 
For more information, contact:   Tara Center
                                 P.O. Box 6001
                                 N. Hollywood, CA 91603
                                 (818) 785-9311
 
------------------------------
 
End of SubGenius Digest
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Subject: SubGenius Digest #421

    
    hmmmmmm
    
    This should prove to be very interesting :-)  
    Another player in the game perhaps?
    
    Mary

    re .39
    
      Interesting, indeed. Please keep us posted if you hear anything else
    about it.
    
    Gil

    RE: .39
   
    
    The Tara Center is the same group that I referred to in my replies
    to this note (.4, .7, .9).  It will be interesting to see if this
    actually does occur this time.
    
    Carole

    
    I dont want to be negative about this,because I do feel a need and an
    opportunity for the human race to become united as one world
    community,a united free world. It has a beginning,I erge its progress.
    I do however,have some reservations about the address given here. I get
    a lot of mail from outfits with Hollywood addresses,box,or suitte
    numbers,and,its all a con to get money from people. I wonder what this
    person,Maitreya,stands for. Is he for a world govt? What is it that he
    says? I will be interested in hearing.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Re.? (Bernier)
    
    Gil,
    
    I seem to recall there being a scripture verse about not knowing the
    time or the place...  Since my ability at finding these things is just
    about hopeless (;^), do you know it offhand?
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Gonna get me a Concordance one of these years.

    Cindy,
    
       I believe in the passage(s) that you seek Jesus was referring to His
    own return, not that of another "christ". However, the scriptures that
    you seek are Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:13, and Mark 13:32.
    
    Gil

    re: .45 (Condy-roo)
    
         Does the Concordance have anything to do with dancing in
    a faster-than-sound jet?
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Double groan, and thanks Gil!  
    
    Cindy

    Haven't heard anything eventful with Lord Maitreya lately...
    has anyone in London heard about this supposed meeting
    of world leaders?
    
    I wasn't invited. 8-(
    
    -Arthur

>    I wasn't invited. 8-(
    
Then they must not have had it.  

:-)

    >Then they must not have had it
    
    What a bummer Arthur, you missed a good party.
    
    heh heh
    
    Cindy

    
	I guess we can close the book on another FRAUD:
    
    
    
    Lord Maitreya known by Christians as the Christ...
    
    			WHEN WILL WE SEE HIM?
    He has not as yet declared his true status and his location is known
    to only a very few disciples. One of these has announced that soon
    the Christ will acknowledge his identity and within the next 2 months
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    will speak to humanity through a worldwide television and radio
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    broadcast. His message will be heard inwardly, telepathically by all
     ^^^^^^^^
    people in their own language.
    From that time with his help, we will build a new world.
    
    			The Tara Press
    			Dartmouth Park Road
    			London
    
From the 4/10/90 _Stanford Daily_:
 
            HISTORIC GLOBAL MEETING SET FOR APRIL
 
Dignitaries from around the world gather for conference with "World Teacher"
 
                      Meetings with World Figures
 
In preparing for his emergence, Maitreya has met privately with groups
of journalists and influential world figures.  They are ready to reveal
their experience of him and to implement his plans once he emerges into
the world area.  That time has now arrived.
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
                  Maitreya to Attend Conference in London
 
A large conference in London is planned for late April.  Invitations have
been sent to hundreds of people, including royalty, representatives of
government (ambassadors, diplomats, etc.), journalists, scientists, and 
others who have met Maitreya.  At this gathering he will present his
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
credentials as the World Teacher for all humanity.  It is hoped that this
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
conference will soon lead to 
Maitreya's declaration before the world of his true status.
 
    
    
    			Jimbert

    
    
    This is the second time this group has made a public announcement of
    the arrival of Maitreya that has not come to be.
    
    Carole

RE: .53 (Jimbert)

>	I guess we can close the book on another FRAUD:

    I think that your judgement is much harsher than the evidence warrents.
    A specific, unambiguous prediction was made and did not come to pass. 
    If the people who made the prediction knew (or at least, believed) that
    it would not come about then this was a indeed a fraud.  I see no good
    reason, however, to conclude that they had not made the prediction
    sincerely.  We cannot even conclude on from this failure that their
    beliefs on the basis of which they made this prediction were not
    substantially correct.  They might have made a mistake in the
    application of that set of beliefs, or the misprediction may have been
    because of an error in what is a minor detail of the beliefs.  (Of
    course, I do not think that this is likely -- but that is primarily
    a matter of my prior beliefs, not deduction from this failure).  The
    history of science is full of bad predictions made on the basis of
    substantially correct theories.

					Topher

    Something a little off-key is going here, but I should think
    that one engaged in conscious fraud would not purposely make
    precise predictions they knew would fail.  I rather think that
    charlatans tend to hide behind ambiguity; you know, the sort
    of prophecy that can be deciphered only *after* the event,
    and couched in language that is open to interpretation.
    (e.g. Nostradamus)
    
    I kind of agree with Topher on this one.  
    
    Joel
    

    
    Where I see fraud in Maitreya is not in any predictions he may or may
    not make, but in saying not once but twice " I've been working
    behind the scenes, but at such and such a date I will come forward
    and show  my face to the world..." He must hold people
     in very low regard, if he reneges on promises, and then makes no
    makes no excuses or apologies. And what is the big deal about him
    making a public appearance? Is this anyway to run a cult? :>)
    
    						Jimbert

    re: .57  (Jimbert)
    
    Interesting question.  Anyone know why he is unwilling to
    "go public"?
    
    Joel
    

    
    The way I see this is that the group "Tara Press" is responsible
    for the prediction.  If there is such an entity as Lord Maitreya,
    it is not he that is coming forth making these claims, but rather
    a group that says they are in communication with him.
    
    Carole

How do you know that the person claiming to be Lord Maitreya is actually
Lord Maitreya?  There are a lot of deluded people out there, you know....

Linda

    The person/being that claims to be Lord Maitreya is a fraud.
    My making a claim to be The Christ <<note .3 At the center of 
    this  spriritual hierarchy stand the world teacher Lord Maitreya
    known by Christians as The Christ >> and my saying the Christ
    has reappeard is just not true. For when Christ does come back
    all will know, He will not hide. And what Christ say's will come
    true unlike the predictions of Lord Maitreya. 
    
    This Lord Maitreya can be called my many names; Anti-Christ, false
    prophet, fraud or just a plain hoax.
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    	The statements you made in the previous note about Lord Maitreya...
    
    > The person/being that claims to be Lord Maitreya is a fraud.
    > 
    > This Lord Maitreya can be called my many names; Anti-Christ, false
    > prophet, fraud or just a plain hoax.
    >
    
    are very strong and decisive.
    
    Would you please explain your reasons for making these claims
    and the source of the information which makes you feel able to make
    that kind of claim.
    
    Martin
    
    

    Bill,
    
    I don't know whether Lord Maitreya is a fraud or not, but I do have
    a nit with your point that *all* will recognize the Christ when he
    returns.  Many didn't recognize him the first time and I wonder if
    in fact a great number would not *know* him if he were among us today.
    Even some who claim to believe in him, may prove to be doubters.
    
    IMHO,
    
    Ro
    

    
    But I thought in the Bible it said that Christ would return like a
    thief in the night, that many would not know he was here.  Am I
    confused on this point?
    
    Carole

    re;62
    
    Hello Martin,
    
    In Luke 21:27 and Acts 1:10-11 tell us how Christ will come back.
    Sorry I don't have the time right now to type the versus, but if
    you wish I will do it when I get more time.
    
    Peace,
    Bill

    Hello Carole,
    
    Yes it does say that He would return like a thief in the night. If you
    read the hole story you can se He was saying that we would not know
    the day He was coming. So that we would always be ready for His coming.
    Luke 21:27 and Acts 1:10-11 tells us how He will coming back.
    
    Peace,
    Bill 

    Re .63-.64
    
    Christ prophesied that he would return like a thief, but he also
    prophesied that, WHEN he came back, it would be blazingly obvious:
    
    	For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show
    	great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible,
    	even the elect.  Behold, I have told you in advance.
    	If, therefore, they say to you, "Behold, he is in the
    	wilderness," do not go forth, or "Behold, he is in the inner
    	room," do not believe them.  For just as the lightning comes
    	from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the
    	coming of the Son of Man be.
    						Matt.24:24-27
    						NASB version
    
    This is from the Olivet Discourse, a long conversation between Christ
    and his disciples on the Mount of Olives, during his last visit to
    Jerusalem.  Matthew, Mark, and Luke all givbe slightly varying records
    of the Olivet Discourse.  The passage just quoted has parallels in Mark
    and Luke.
    
    A lightning stroke is both a surprise (like the thief) and totally
    public.  That and the forewarning mean that Christians regard all the
    alleged Second Comings to date with skepticism, to say the least.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Thanks Carl, I agree with your reply. For all will truly know when Christ
    returns.  Looking forword to that day.
    
    Peace,
    Bill

   In reference to the second coming of Christ, in "An Open Life" interviews
   with Joseph Campbell, a symbolic interpretation of Christ words is
   explained: (starting on page 56)

        The great thing - Yoga and Samsara are one, that's the sense of
     nondual realization. You go past the pairs of opposites and that,
     ultimately, on a sort of ABC level, is the difference between Hinayana
     [Buddhism] and Mahayana [Buddhism]. The Hinayana monastic way, where you
     leave the world of Samsara and the vortex of rebirth, is transcended when
     Nirvanic realization is achieved and you realize you are beyond the pairs
     of opposites so that this is Nirvana *here*. The Nirvanic revelation is
     of the way of experiencing what's here now so that it's radiant of the
     Mother Light.

        Now, we get that in the wonderful *Gospel According to Thomas*, which
     has been translated from the Nag-Hammadi finds, where the very last
     passage opens the whole thing. Jesus says, "This generation will not pass
     away but these things will have come to pass." To interprete that as an
     end of the world is to misread the symbol. But that's the way it has been
     read. And of course, the world didn't pass away. This is what's called
     the great non-event: it didn't occur. My point is that to interpret
     symbolic forms as though they were references not to potentialities
     within the human spirit, but to historical events, is to misread them.

        ?We have religions that are based on that passage in the Bible.

       I know it! And the whole idea of the Second Coming is thought to be a
     historical event, too. Well, at the end of the Thomas Gospel, the
     disciples ask, "When will the kingdom come?" And Jesus answers, "The
     kingdom will not come by *expectation*. The kingdom of the Father *is*
     spread over the earth and men do not see it." In other words, bring it
     about in your hearts. And that is precisely the sense of Nirvanic
     realization. This is it. All you have to do is see it. And the function
     of meditation leading to that is to dissociate you from your commitment
     to this body, which is afraid to die, so that you realize the eternal
     dimension is right here, now, everywhere. And suffering and joy, good and
     evil are functins of the apparitional situation as things seem, but the
     ultimate is transcendence. This is right in the gospels, when Jesus says,
     "Judge not that you may not be judged" [Matthew 7:1] and "Be as your
     father in heaven whose rain falls on the just and the unjust."
     [paraphrase of Matthew 5:45-48] But we, in our religions, have made a
     terrific point of ethical judgement. It's a fantastic distortion:
     historical and ethical references instead of the metaphysical. That
     doesn't mean that in your social life you shouldn't make ethical
     judgements, but they're not the mystery dimension of our potentials for
     experience. {end quote}

   Me personally, I prefer the mystical interpretation of the Second Comming.
   In reference to Christ's return and lightening, sounds very much like the
   experience of enlightenment. If you go here and there looking for the
   return of Christ (false Christ's) you may miss the event entirely, the
   "great non-event." Are you "ready" for enlightenment when it comes? To me,
   I read these teachings to mean, you must prepare yourself, make yourself
   ready.

   On judging whether a sage is a proper one, here is an interesting quote
   from "Buddhism and Zen" by Nyogen Senzaki and Ruth Strout McCandless in the
   chapter "Notes's of Bodi-Dharma's Disciples":

     Question: What is the difference between a sage's most excellent life and
     the common people's everyday life?
     Answer: It is like gossamer. Some mistake it for vapor, but it is in fact
     a spider's silk that floats in the air. A mediocre person sees the sage's
     life, and believes it to be the same as his own everyday life; whereas
     the enlightened man sees the holy path in a life of mediocrity. You will
     observe in the Sutras that all Buddhas preach for two groups...the
     mediocre and the wise, but in the eye of Zen, a sage's life is one of
     mediorcrity and the mediocre person's is the sage's. This one life has no
     form and is empty by nature. If you become attached to any form, you
     should reject it. If you see an ego, a soul, a birth, or a death, reject
     them all. 

     Question: Why and how do we reject them?
     Answer: If you have Zen, you should not see a thing. The *Tao-Teh-Ching*
     says, "The most firmly established in the path appears the most remiss." 

Re .69

Campbell and the Gospel of Thomas are both good examples of a spiritualizing 
and internalizing tradition.  Traditions like this are of long standing in the
East, and probably connected historically with the gnosticism in the West that
the Thomas Gospel represents.

But there is an ancient western tradition I might call "materializing" or 
"incarnating."  I don't know that the two traditions are necessarily in 
contradiction to one another, though Campbell clearly considers the western 
one a gross misunderstanding.

In the "materializing" tradition of the West, God works in history.  The soul 
does not so often go seeking the divine as the divine comes seeking the soul 
-- in Judaism, through the covenants, the law, and the prophets.  In 
Christianity, the Word, perhaps the same as the ineffable thing called the
Tao, becomes Flesh; and myth, the ancient tale of the dying and rising god,
becomes a fact. Enlightenment eventually sweeps over the body, the community,
and the cosmos, as well as the individual spirit. 

In the western tradition, you pass beyond dualities of spirit and matter not
by annihilating or escaping the matter, but by marrying it and spirit, and in
that marriage and its offspring producing a new creation. 

    re: .71, 
    
    Based on ancient Egyptian tradition, the ages of world time are 
    characterized by our attitude toward our own history and mythology.
    I thought the distinction was interesting and appropriate :
    
    The Age of Men  --  Myth is an imaginative narrative, literally untrue
    			but expressing an emotional truth.  Seeking to
    			hold on to the sacred, seeking unity in a divided
    			culture.
    
    The Age of Heroes  --  Myth tells us what we are, where we come from,
    			where we are going.  Answers the riddle of
    			existence.  All attempts to answer these large
    			questions, whether from science, religion, or
    			other, fall into the realm of myth.   Homer,
    			Dante, Milton, Darwin, Marx, and Freud all
    			express myth in this sense.
    
    The Age of Gods  --  Myth understood as a performance of the very
    			reality it seeks to describe.  Myth as the history
    			of the human soul.  So-called 'archetypal'
    			understanding of principles of cosmic order
    			as seeds for the unfolding of being, rather than
    			simply symbols.   Plato's world of forms, in a
    			sense.
    
    	The 'The New Science of Giambattista Vico,' a fourth age is
    	added, corresponding to the transitional age between the modern
    	age and a *New* Age of the Gods.  This is 
    
    	The Age of Chaos  --  Myth is falsity, an opinion popularly 
    			believed but known by experts to be incorrect.
    
    
    							todd

When will man finally become man?
When will man finally understand that they can be responsible for their own.
When will they finally understand that they can only reach a living society
if each one acts as a true individual, that means that he takes his own
decisions (and the consequences of it) in respect to the others.
How much times they still will believe that others will do it for them ?

We really are at the beginning of the Aquarian Age.
We will see a lot of nice structures,
with still nicer words,
but behind it cold, autocratic domination.

When will people be able to carry freedom ?

    
    
    The Anti-Christ is here!!!
    
    ...but i know in whom i believe, and am able to trust in Him until that
    day.

    Re .76
    
    "The reaction I was baiting."  How candid of you.
    
    "How will they recognize him if..."  Please see note .67 under this
    topic.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Considering how unrecognised he was first time round, what makes you
    think that he will be more obvious on the second go.
    
    Jamie.

    re: .78 (Jamie)
    
        ...because he'll be with Elvis, silly man!
    
    ;-)
    Frederick
    

    
    What I believe Christ was pointing to is happening today. Look around 
    and see the teachings. The essence is correct in alot of it but without
    exception they are dead works. The power of Christ is a living power.
    Without which men are blind. This power he called the Holy Spirit. It
    blows like a wind, and who knows whither it comes or wither it goes.
    This power "SPIRIT" is in the world and comforting and teaching many
    men and women the true spirituality. One where everyone can achieve the
    bliss of the ocean of compassion for themselves. There is only one
    power responsible for all the incarnations and saints in the world. It
    is the residual power of the Holy Spirit that is sleeping in all
    people. It can only be awakened by SAT GURU. A true Master. Where is
    this master to be found? There is one today who is doing this work, not
    with a promise of tommorrows rewards but one who can empower and lift
    up the individual. All that is required is the Desire and it can work
    out. All who read of Sahaja Yoga workshop in Hudson and did not go for
    whatever reason you missed a very great thing. Perhaps some would like
    us to hold another? This thing is so great and special, to posses your
    own power of self-realisation is the highest reward. I humbly enjoy the
    bliss and joy of existence today. Samsara and Enlightenment are not the
    same!
    
                                              Peace
    

Re .80

The thief analogy to Christ's return first appears at Matthew 24:42-44:

	"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord
	 is coming.  But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had
	 known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have 
	 been on his alert and not have allowed his house to be broken into.
	 For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at
	 an hour when you do not think he will."

This is part of the Olivet Discourse, the conversation between Christ and his
disciples on the Mount of Olives, shortly before he was crucified.  The simile
comparing Christ's return to a flash of lightning also occurs in this chapter.
The Olivet Discourse is recorded in and around Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 
Luke 21. 

In Mark's version, at 13:35-36, Christ compares his return to the surprise 
arrival of the master of the house.  The moral is the same; since you do not 
know the time, be ready at all times.

References to the thief image occur at I Thessalonians 5:2, II Peter 3:10, and 
Revelation 16:15.

I think the reference to the Comforter you are trying to remember may be from 
John 14, during the conversations at the Last Supper:

	"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you anther helper,
	 that he may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth,
	 whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold him
	 or know him, but you know him because he abides in you, and will
	 be in you.
						John 14:16-17

	"He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which
	 you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.  These things
	 I have spoekn to you while abiding with you.  But the helper,
 	 the Holy Spirit, whom my Father will send in my name, he will teach
	 you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to
	 you."
						John 14:24-26

The "helper" is `paraclete' in the Greek and is probably also translated 
"comforter" in other English versions.

The general understanding of Christians is that this promise was fulfilled at 
the Feast of Pentecost following Christ's death, resurrection, and ascencion, 
when the Holy Spirit descended on the assembled disciples.  The incident is 
recorded in Acts 2.

	The only way I can reconcile the above passage with the one about the
	comforter is:

	"For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the
	 west, so shall the coming of the Conforter be.

	Is that correct?

I don't know of any reason to identify the Paraclete with the returning 
Christ, and so don't know of any reason to apply the lightning or thief 
similes to the Paraclete.

	At the height of the changes, can this Maitreya's step forward be as 
	blazing as the lightning from the east and the flashes to the west? 

One can only wait and see.

Earl Wajenberg

                              
    Re.others
    
    Shall I start preparing for the post-Rapture party?  *<(8^)
    
    
    Re.81 (on a more serious note)
    
    I attended the Sahaja Yoga gathering mentioned, and it was excellent. 
    Hopefully next week I'll write up a suitable trip report and put it in
    the Sahaja topic.  If there is a workshop available near you, I highly 
    recommend checking it out.
    
    Cindy

    Re .84:
    
    	"My point was that labelling everyone beforehand as the Anti-Christ
    	 might prevent one to see Him as many did in the past."
    
    I understand.  However, Christians do not expect the Second Coming to
    be the kind of thing anyone could overlook -- try as they might.
    
    If you do believe that Christ is coming back, then you probably believe 
    so because he said he was.  The main record of this is in the Olivet 
    Discourse, recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.  There, Christ compares 
    his return to many things -- to a thief breaking in AND to a master 
    showing up for a surprise inspection AND to lightning flashing.
    Those last two similes make the public nature of the return clear -- as
    do the other images in the Discourse about Christ's returning amid
    cosmic disaster.
    
    Re .85:
    
    	"Therefore since Jesus does not seem to be coming back, any allegations
   	 of *I am Christ* seems doomed to be a fake."
    
    Any allegations not issued by someone standing in the center of a
    world-ending cataclysm, yes.
    
    This is why so many Christians react negatively to claims that Christ
    has returned.  We were warned (by Christ) that people would claim he
    had returned, but the only sufficient credentials (that he told us to
    accept) is Doomsday itself.  As long as life goes on more or less 
    normally, Christians often cast jaundiced glances as Messianic claims
    -- per instructions.
    
    Earl Wajenberg
    
    

    Ditto to what Earl Wajenberg has clearly said.  He is not speaking his
    own opinion, but what any student of the Bible (Old and New Testaments
    agree on this) knows.

    Are you REALLY looking for him?  Are you truly concerned about NOT missing
    Him this time and not being deceived?  

    The true Messiah, The Christ if you will, was prophesied to come as
    both a king and a humble servant, a sheppard and a sacrificial lamb, a 
    savior and one forsaken.  He was to lead the Hebrews into the kingdom
    of God, and He was to be despised by them.  Among other passages,
    Isaiah 53, and Psalm 22 come to mind.  Also there are many symbolic
    practices in the Old Testament that point to Jesus as Christ.  Just
    check out how the furniture in the tabernacle and the Temple were laid
    out in the form of a cross.  One of the strongest "pointers" was of the
    blood of the lamb splashed on the doorways of the homes of the
    Believing Israelites so they would be saved during Passover.  It was
    splashed on the door-post in the sign of the cross.

    His own people did not recognize Him when He came the first time,
    because they were expecting their King and did not know Him as their
    servant.

    When He did come as servant, He clearly stated that His Kingdom was not
    of this earth!  In the discourse on the Mount of Olives, he said things
    like;
         "Watch out that you are not deceived.  For many will come in 
         my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.'  Do not
         follow them.    Luke 21:8 NIV

    Christ then proceeded to predict a multitude of events that were yet to
    have taken place.  At the current time however, most of them have already
    occurred, some are still future.  After discussing some still future
    events, that with study are seen to be taking place in what is known as
    a 3.5 year period called by Him as the Great Tribulation, he said this;
         "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud 
         with power and great glory.  When these things begin to take
         place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption 
         is drawing near."    Luke 21:27-28
         
            "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with
         dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and 
         that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.  For 
         it will come upon all those who live on the face of the 
         whole earth.  Be always on the watch, and pray that you may 
         be able to stand before the Son of Man."  Luke 21:34-36


    If anyone in here is truly seeking the return of Christ, then seek out
    what He Himself and others in His Word have said.  If you are serious
    about not wanting to miss Him (The Messiah), its very easy not to.  You
    may not only KNOW Him, but you can even be a part of that great cloud of 
    power that returns with Him at the end of the Great Tribulation to do 
    battle with Satan himself, as he embodies the Anti-christ.

    You see, when His own people the Jews rejected Him the first time, God
    opened up salvation to ALL people that believe in Him!  One of the most
    moving of all passages in the Bible is where Paul (Saul), a "Hebrew of
    Hebrews", shows his great compassion for the people of his own race,
    the Israelite.  This wonderful plea and insight from God is found in
    Romans chapters 9,10,11.  Here, he says;
          "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
          For i could wish that i myself were cursed and cut off 
          from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own
          race, the people of Israel.  Romans 9:2-3 
    About them he says;
          ...Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at 
          all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has
          come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious...  10:11
    He goes on to say that the Jews have experienced a temporary hardening
    until the full number of Gentiles have come in, and then they will see
    and be saved.  

    You may experience this salvation.  He says in Romans 10:9-10;
          "...if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and
          believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead,
          you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you
          believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that
          you confess and are saved."
    No ifs, ands, or buts.  
          "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 
                                                              10:13

    If you have called on the name of Jesus as Lord, you will now be a part
    of the next great event in the history of His people.  

    The snatching away.  Commonly referred to as "the rapture".

    Without quoting all the verses (look for them yourselves if you are
    really concerned), this is an event that will take place either just
    before, or sometime during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation
    period, where the world will be in relative peace and harmony in the New 
    World Order with the "world teacher", and world leader.  After Israel
    signs a peace treaty with the powers of Europe, this false messiah will
    enforce peace for 3.5 years.  Then he will set himself up to be worshiped 
    in the Temple in Jerusalem.  For insight into this read Daniel,
    especially chapter nine and then compare with the book of Revelation.

    But back to the rapture.  This event is sometimes confused with "the
    second coming", but actually proceeds it.

    There are two passages that directly mention this.  One can be found in
    1 Corinthians 15 and the other in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.
           4:16-17- "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
           with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and
           with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will
           rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left
           will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord
           in the air..."

    What is referred to usually as the Second Coming, is when Jesus
    actually comes down and plants His feet on the Mount of Olives to
    assure in the 1000 year reign of Christ, the Day of the Lord.  He does
    this only after the Anti-christ is defeated at Armageddon.

    Jesus IS LORD and the Messiah, THE CHRIST.

    Jesus did not have the title of The Christ placed on him because of his
    actions or anything else, only to have it put on someone else later. 
    He was Christ before His first coming, He was Christ during His ministry 
    on earth, He is Christ now, He is Christ during His millennial reign,
    and He will always BE, Christ.  The Alpha and the Omega.

    Don't be deceived by someone coming in His name, who was *predicted*
    to appear by Jesus Himself.

    i Leave you, anyone concerned about who Christ is, with this;

        "Who is the liar?  It is the man who denies that Jesus is the
                                                               --
        Christ.  Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and
        the Son.  No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever
        acknowledges the Son has the Father also."  1 John 2:22-23
    And;
        "Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in
        the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge
        Jesus is not from God.  This is the spirit of the antichrist,
        which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the
        world."       1 John 4:2-3



                                          True Peace-
                                                 jOHN

    Re .88:
    
    But Maitreya isn't being billed as the Comforter, at least so far as I
    can tell from the notes in this topic (i.e. .3, .5, .29, .30, .39,
    .53).  He's being billed as the Christ.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

RE: <<< Note 1199.89 by CUPMK::WAJENBERG "and the Cthulhuettes" >>>

>  He's being billed as the Christ.
    
Is he being billed as THE Christ or is he being billed as A Christ?

Linda

Re .91:  "The question was quite general I didn't mention Maitreya at all."

Fine.  I didn't realize we hadn't resumed the main subject of the topic.

However, it seems to me that when Mr. Troyer spoke of "coming in his 
[Christ's] name" in .87, he meant *claiming* the name of Christ, i.e. claiming 
to *be* Christ and not, for instance, claiming to be working as his agent.

As for the Comforter promised by Christ at John 16:7, Christians take this to 
be the Holy Spirit (see John 16:13), who came as promised, forty days after 
Christ's death and resurrection.  Therefore, they are not waiting for the 
Comforter any longer; they believe it came long ago and is still present.

Earl Wajenberg

    Hi Earl,
    
<<As for the Comforter promised by Christ at John 16:7, Christians take this to 
be the Holy Spirit (see John 16:13), who came as promised, forty days after 
Christ's death and resurrection.  Therefore, they are not waiting for the 
Comforter any longer; they believe it came long ago and is still present.

    I don't like to get involved in religious discussions, even though I
    sometimes participate in the Christian-Perspective conference; however,
    I do want to add that I agree with your statement.  I also view the
    Holy Spirit as the Comforter, part on my belief in this is based on 
    what I have learned/experienced through A Course in Miracles.
    
    Ro
    

    
    
    Hello folks.  The date is March 2, 1992.  I was just breezing through
    this note to see what it was about.  Frankly, I am shocked to see the
    things people are writing and believing in.  You are all talking about
    how this Maitreya person is the Christ because he is taking out full
    page ads in the N.Y. Times?  OPEN YOUR EYES!  Do you really think that
    Jesus Christ, God's son, needs to take out full page ads to let people
    know that he is here?  PLEASE!  Wake up and smell the coffee people! 
    Jesus Christ hasn't come for His people yet.  Obviously.  When He does
    come, He won't need to call the papers and tell them of His return! 
    Jesus wasn't then nor is He now One for publicity in that sense.  He
    wants people to turn from their sin and enjoy abundant life through
    Him NOW!  Ads in the N.Y. Times?  GIVE ME A BREAK!  Jesus is the only
    true Messiah.  He's the only One who can save you--stop looking to
    this Maitreya guy and accept the Lord as your personal Savior.  Then
    keep your eyes on Jesus, look full in His wonderful face.  And the
    things of Earth will grow strangely dim.  In the light of His wonder
    and grace.  (As the song goes.)  Then you won't need to look to
    anything else--JUST HIM!
    
    
    
                                                        Jill

                                                                       
    Re.94
    
    Hi Jill,
    
    Thought I was in the GOLF:: conference for a minute there!  (;^)
    
    Can you be specific on exactly who in this conference is believing that 
    'this Maitreya person is the Christ because he is taking out full page 
    ads in the N.Y. Times.'?  I must have missed whoever proclaimed that
    belief here.
    
    As for opening one's eyes, I concur.  Specifically it is the third eye...
    
    Cindy

    re: .94 (Jill)
    
         Frankly, I don't know what some of the notes you are referring
    to are talking about, since I haven't read most of them.  I would 
    appreciate it very much, however, if you were to take care to not
    over-generalize to the extent that all of us are dummies because
    you feel a certain passion in some other perceived direction.
    I do not see any Jesus anywhere, except by reference and in paintings
    and statues generated by individuals who lived at least a millenia and
    a half after his death (assuming he lived at all.)  Nor do I hold
    out for "salvation" from some future Jesus.  Your opinions are fine.
    The dogma of your beliefs is coercive and dominating, however.
    Feel free to state your opinions as just that.  Please do not assume
    superiority, especially since the beliefs you hold are ancient,
    archaic and not terrible enlightened--in my view.  Time and again
    Christians have been asked to take their Christian arguments elsewhere
    (other than DEJAVU.)  There are whole notesfiles directed to those
    arguments.  It would be nice to keep DEJAVU uncluttered by those
    arguments...arguments that in *my* perception are valueless.  Maybe
    you can think about it.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Re.96 (Frederick)
    
    Jill is just as welcome here with her Christian perspective as you are
    with your Lazaris perspective.  Both are valid.
    
    However when she makes statements that don't appear to be a true
    reflection of the situation (that people here are believing something
    because it appeared in a newspaper, for example), then it is acceptable
    and appropriate for someone to ask for clarification and evidence to
    support her claim.  
    
    Cindy

    re: .97 (Cindy)
    
         Thank you for your undoubtably fully enlightened, yogic
    response (or whatever.)  
         I did not say her opinion was invalid.  What I said was that
    her dogmatic, all-encompassing "truth" was nothing more than
    her personal view...and not a general, globally held view of reality
    at all.  As has been stated many times in notes, when a person
    says "this is how I see it" is far different than saying "it is *this*
    way and only *this* way."  The additional point that I was making is
    that this notesfile is not really set up to argue Christianity...though
    I know lots of Christians are itching to argue it...and it becomes
    then an obtrusive and debilitating distraction to the intention of the
    notes most of us here to take part in.  
         By the way, my perspective appears to be just that.  Do not
    attribute my perspective to a single source, thank you.  Keep your 
    desire to vilify me and what you think about me elsewhere.  Thanks.
    
    
    Frederick
    

RE: .96 (Frederick)

    Frederick has made a personal request that "Christians ... take their
    Christian arguments elsewhere (other than DEJAVU.)"  I wish to
    emphasize that this *is* a personal reqest of Frederick's.  This notes
    file is equally for discussions of Christian spirituality as it is for
    any other kind.

    On the other hand, as Frederick has pointed out, their are other notes
    files which specialize in disscussions of Christianity.  Christians may
    find more people of similar thought there.  If they wish, nevertheless,
    to discuss the Christian faith here there are two things which they
    should be aware of:

        1) This is not a forum for proselytizing.  Unfortunately abuses
        here and elsewhere have made non-Christians (and many Christians)
        particularly sensitive to Christian proselytizing.  Drawing the
        line between someone describing their beliefs and someone pushing
        their beliefs on someone else is difficult in any case.  Given the
        perceived "track record" of some Christians, behavior which would
        not be perceived as proselytizing from, say a Buddhist, might be so
        perceived from a Christian.  However regrettable, that is the
        situation.  Christians need to choose their words carefully to make
        clear that you are describing *their* view rather than what they
        think others *should* believe (besides, in this environment, their
        views are likely to have a greater impact and to be seriously
        considered if this tact is taken).

        2) This conference caters to a wide variety of viewpoints some
        rather antithetical to some conceptions of Christianity. Christians
        will have to accept that, here at least, those viewpoints are
        welcome also.  Neither the holding nor the expressing of those
        viewpoints should be taken as an afront to Christians or to
        Christianity, nor is it in violation of a Christian's "valuing
	differences" rights (and yes, people have tried to argue that the
	expression of ideas that some Christians consider non-Christian
	should be banned under the valuing differences policy).

    Anyone who is willing to follow those two precepts is welcome to
    discuss their sense of spirituality -- Christian or otherwise -- here.

					    Topher

                                                                     
    Re.99
    
    Thanks Topher.  Well said.
    
    
    re: .98 (Frederick)
    
    >Keep your desire to vilify me and what you think of me elsewhere.
    
    I hold no such desire.
    
    Cindy

Re .last_few:

Beliefs, particularly religiopholidsophical ones, tend to generate passions.
The problem is that passions can get in the way of open discourse.  

Any belief is a matter of faith (including "facts" such as the Sun going to
rise in the East each successive dawn).  Anyone can have any of three positions
on a belief: they can agree, disagree, or have no opinion one way or the other.
But _no_ belief ultimately can be proven (even mathematical "proofs" are based on
the acceptance of certain axioms); at least, not by finite minds, IMHO.

In the perspective of the above, I suspect more would be served by a little care
in phraseology.  If one has a very strong opinion on a particular subject, 
prefacing that with "From my perspective," "In my opinion," "I believe that," or
some equivalent phrase, might well help prevent unnecessary heat.

These are tense times, so I believe that we're all more likely than usual to 
take things more strongly than they may have been meant.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

>Any belief is a matter of faith (including "facts" such as the Sun going to
    
    Right.  Sometimes, in written argument, it helps for both writer and 
    reader to make a distinction between facts, opinions, and arguable 
    propositions.  It sometimes can help to minimize certain kinds of 
    misinterpretations of intention.
    
    Given my understanding of the term 'argue,' implying rational
    discourse, it is either impossible or pointless to argue beliefs,
    in the sense that a belief is purely a personal preference.
    
    One tricky part is for the reader to recognize an opinion from
    a statement of fact or an arguable proposition.  Often, this can
    only be done by asking the writer their grounds for evidence.
    
    Putting the softener "in my opinion" helps the communication
    process sometimes, but it *doesn't* automatically make something an
    opinion, it may still be an arguable proposition, and open to 
    meaningful debate.  Similarly, presenting an opinion dogmatically doesn't 
    make it either fact or arguable.  Such is the case with much religious 
    debate.  
    
    The distinction between a meaningful proposition for argument
    and one that is not is based upon the grounds for support.
    If the grounds are purely personal, we have an opinion, and no
    basis for argument (in the standard sense).   If the grounds are
    impersonal and not dependent upon the preferences of the individual,
    then we may have an arguable proposition.
    
    							todd

Todd>    If the grounds are purely personal, we have an opinion, and no
Todd>    basis for argument (in the standard sense).   
    
Cliff> Okay.  Personally, in my opinion, not only is this contradictory, but it's
Cliff> also wrong thinking.
    
    I'm sorry, what specifically do you consider wrong thinking, Cliff ?
    
    Do you disagree with the above definition of 'opinion' ?   The above
    came almost directly from a text on rhetoric, so maybe you'd consider
    it a specialized definition and different from your own usage of the
    word ?
    
    								todd

    re: .105, Cliff,
    
    I think what I was trying to say, albeit pompously, was that
    the support for an argument determines its arguability,
    not the form or style of the argument.
    
    I think we seem to be deadlocked into growling, teeth-gnashing 
    agreement.  :-)
    
    I get carried away with pedantry sometimes when I try to support
    an argument in writing and I have a weak conception of my audience, as I 
    do in this conference.   Thanks for clarifying.
    
    								todd

Re .107:

  "...there are many other Christians who do not share Earl's perspective 
   which was put as valid for all Christians...."

No, I did not put them as "valid for all Christians."  At several points in my
notes (though apparently not at enough points, such as the first line you
quote), I have characterized the interpretations as "mainstream," or used 
other qualifiers.  The "mainstream" includes Catholic, Orthodox, and most 
large Protestant churches. 

Under this topic, there are a number of passages announcing or strongly 
implying that Maitreya is Christ.  These passages have almost always provoked 
strongly negative responses from noters that either announce themselves as 
Christians or strongly give that impression.  These negative responses in turn 
provoke more negative reaction, but this last set usually contain some element 
of puzzlement, it seems to me.  The question "What's your problem with 
Maitreya?" seems to hover in the background.

I have been trying to explain what the problem is, in the probable framework
of the people who enter those first negative notes.

Earl Wajenberg

    Hi Marcos (107)
    
    Just time for a quick reply.  A Course in Miracles teaches that the
    Comforter/Holy Spirit dwells within each of us and is the only part of
    us that can perceive 'reality'.  In other words, what our
    Ego/Personality sees is based on the past (our experiences of), we do
    not truly 'see' things, situations, people as they truly are.  We see
    ourselves as separate from God when in reality we are not.  The Holy
    Spirit then is the way for us to see the oneness in all things.  What
    one learns through the course is how to allow the Holy Spirit to speak
    through us rather than our ego to bring joining rather than
    separateness.  This is strictly my opinion based on my experiences
    with ACIM, I am not saying this is the path for everyone or this is the
    only way.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Ro
    

    I agree Marcos!  The Holy Spirit always dwelt within each of us. 
    Perhaps the quote is an obscure hint that Jesus woke up the Holy
    Spirit which had been 'asleep' in many/most at/by that time.
    
    Ro
    

    
    The very essense of Sahaja Yoga.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

                  
    From the talk that Sri Mataji gave in the video about the 6th chakra,
    this is the seat of Christ Consciousness, and waking this up (or
    unblocking this) in people was Christ's role on Earth.  
    
    The 6th center is about forgiveness.  That is why forgiveness is
    emphasized in Christ's teachings.  The act of forgiving unblocks that
    chakra/center.
    
    However, for those who have had a rather difficult time this go around,
    I believe it is more in forgiving yourself and not feeling guilty.
    Eventually the forgiveness of those who caused you pain will come as a
    result of your being able to forgive yourself and not feel guilty.
    
    Christ was killed because saying things like "The Kingdom of God is
    within you" empowered people to know their true identity and undermined 
    the church and state hierarchies at the time.  And even the book that 
    inspired Gandhi the most - Tolstoy's "The Kingdom of God Is Within 
    You" - was banned in Russia when he first wrote it, and the Church wasn't 
    all that happy about the book either.  It's an excellent work.
    
    And Alex Haley once said, "You can enslave a man who knows who he is."
    
    Cindy

                  
    From the talk that Sri Mataji gave in the video about the 6th chakra,
    this is the seat of Christ Consciousness, and waking this up (or
    unblocking this) in people was Christ's role on Earth.  
    
    The 6th center is about forgiveness.  That is why forgiveness is
    emphasized in Christ's teachings.  The act of forgiving unblocks that
    chakra/center.
    
    However, for those who have had a rather difficult time this go around,
    I believe it is more in forgiving yourself and not feeling guilty.
    Eventually the forgiveness of those who caused you pain will come as a
    result of your being able to forgive yourself and not feel guilty.
    
    Christ was killed because saying things like "The Kingdom of God is
    within you" empowered people to know their true identity and undermined 
    the church and state hierarchies at the time.  And even the book that 
    inspired Gandhi the most - Tolstoy's "The Kingdom of God Is Within 
    You" - was banned in Russia when he first wrote it, and the Church wasn't 
    all that happy about the book either.  It's an excellent work.
    
    And Alex Haley once said, "You can't enslave a man who knows who he is."
    
    Cindy

Ro,

I liked your note about God dwelling within each of us. I recently attended a 
lecture by Barbara Brennan, the former NASA scientist and now healer where 
she talked about this topic. I will be writing about this in a separate 
topic. She had been talked about auric layers in her book Hands of Light. In 
her new work she has been working on what she said were the next two 
dimensions down. One was Intent, the hara line in the body. (This is what I 
will discuss in a separate topic). The 4th dimension that can be perceived is 
that what she called the Core Essence. She said this is where God dwells 
within you. This is the God-like Esscence within you. She talked about how we 
all are born with this - there is a spot in our bodies. Thru childhood and 
lifetime hurts we move away from this. She talked about hell being a move/ a 
forgetting of this Esscence.

Sam

    Hi Sam,
    
    I attended a lecture by Barbara Brennan a couple of years ago and
    enjoyed it very much.  I have her book Hands of Light and had thought
    about attending her school, but unfortunately it was just to expensive
    for me.  I've found, however, that what I've studied in Polarity Therapy
    is quite similar to Barbara's energy work.
    
    A book you might also find interesting is Pathworks: (I forget the
    subtitle) by Eva Pierrokas (sp) who was Barbara's mentor in her
    spiritual work.
    
    A friend had told me about her new work with the Hara Line and I had
    been looking forward to the book being published.  Please let us know
    if you hear when it become available.
    
    Enjoyed meeting you the other night and your fiance too.
    
    Ro 

    
    
    	Well, I just got finished reading .120 and I must say it is sad
    that you believe this.  It's too bad that this Maitreya is deceiving
    all who believe in him.  
    >Tell them that the Son of Man has returned......
    
    Unbelievable.  Know this, if you can't see your way to back to Jesus,
    when Jesus Christ does return for His followers, no one will need to be
    "told."  AND there will be a World War Three.  No matter what this
    Maitreya says.  No matter what.
    
    
    
    	We'll be praying for you.
    
    
    
                                                         Jill
    

>    .......  AND there will be a World War Three.
	
	Oh good. Something to live for.
	
	No smiley.

   It seems to me that anytime we cover our true nature with ideas of God, we
   have separated ourselves from the very life of God. Hence our 'return' is a
   matter of realization rather than believing or following anyone's ideas.
   When we attach to ideas, we are based in fear. When there is nothing to
   save, then nothing to fear, we will have resumed our true nature.

   Wayne

    Thank goodness for the Kp3 key.
    
    Jamie.

    
    >Thank goodness for the Kp3 key.
    
    Awoman!
    
    Cindy

    re .125 Good one, Cindy. Brought a smile to my face. Thank you.
    
    PJ

    I must be missing something here. What's funny about .125 ? Is it a
    cultural thing?
    
    Laurie.

    re: .127
    
    Amen = A "men"    hence  Awoman = A "woman"
    
    Good one!
    
    Best,
    Michelle

Re .129 (Michelle):

I got it, but there's a problem --

If "amen" means/can_represent "a men"; the distaff equivant should be "awomen,"
not "awoman."                                                              ^

Steve Kallis,  Jr.

    
    Good one, Steve!  (;^)  Thanks!
    
    You are correct, of course.
    
    Cindy

    Steve,
    
    I did notice that. I just didn't want to be nit-picky. 8^)
    
    Michelle

    So it *was* a cultural thing. We British don't say A-men, with a short
    'a' as in "able", we say Ah-men, with a long 'a' as in "Aaahhhh". No
    wonder it made no sense to me.
    
    Laurie.

  
  Oh I don't know ... I've often thought to myself "Aaahhh women" :-)
  
  Frank

    Ah yes Laurie, I've often been heard saying that.

    Jamie.

Everyone's potty round here!

							Amywisdomteeth.

								- JIM CAD*

Re .137 (JIM CAD*):

>Everyone's potty round here!

"Everyone's"?  Me no use potty; when very little, graduate to W.C." ;-)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .137
    
    >Everyone's potty round here!
    
    We have only one potty between the lot of us?
    
    Jamie.

         
    >A leg crossing thought.
    
    Does that work for guys too?
    
    Cindy

    Does Maitreya have anything to do with the Sharon Stone School of
    Limber Limbs?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
    

    	I found this is my newspaper's (The Independent) classified
    section...
    
    "Your civilization, My Friends, is dying - out of its ashes will grow a
    new beauty, whose basis is Love, Justice and sharing."
    
    		Lecture by Bemjamin Creme on the Emergence of
    
    			MAITREYA - The World Teacher
    
    	   At Friends House, Euston Road NW1, Opp Euston Station
    
    		    Thursday March 4. 6.30 for 7.00pm
    
    		Admission Free. Enquiries Tel: 071-485 1739
    
    I have no (known) connection with this event, I just thought it might
    be of interest.
    
    Martin

    Marcos, thank you for posting that!
    

    
    Additional to the 'BACKGROUND INFORMATION" - Hindus watch for Lord
    Kalki who is/will be an incarnation of Vishnu (as are all of the 
    Avatar incarnations in the Hindu lineage, including Krishna).
    
    The Hindu Trinity consists of:  Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, (Creator,
    Sustainer, and Destroyer respectively.)
    
    Cindy