Conference hydra::dejavu

    There is going to be a Gathering of people who read and contribute
    to this file (see note 145.0).  I don't know if you'll get the "proof"
    you want but maybe it will enrich your faith.  If nothing else you'll
    meet some nice people.  I myself have never had any proof. I believe
    that it takes a great deal of concentration and perserverance to
    develop the skills you want proof of.  Join us at the next Gathering!
    
    		Dave

    	 I know of one god..........Eric Clapton.........seeing him
    is like seeing a god........!
    
    
                  if he's not a god he's damn close.
    
    chris

    I have used tarot decks, but never for a moment believed that the
    process was "supernatural", at least, no more supernatural than
    ink blot tests or procedures for how to find and fix car troubles.

    Obviously if there is an "answer" to a problem that can be
    gotten by ordinary effort, one has no business divining.  But
    in the absence of anything better, the tarot may help a re-think.
    The re-think may lead to an insight.  Because the traditional
    meanings assigned to the cards attempt to cover the whole spectrum
    of experience, they may be more helpful in achieving the insight
    than reading entrails (ugh!) or gazing at tea leaves, etc.
        
    The whole question of "spirit" sources of information is a very
    troublesome area.  Is the source a separate being, or a suppressed
    component of one's own psyche?  I probably have no business 
    speaking of it at all, since I have little experience with this.
    But to devise a test to exclude all possibility of subliminal
    perception, of latent psychic abilities, of forgotten knowlege
    coming to the surface mind -- to be *sure* would be as much
    trouble as rigging a test to detect gravity waves, I'd think.
    
    Pat
    
                                                              

    Just so nobody jumps on me for this the last sentence should have
    read "I don't see anything "supernatural" that I haven't created".
                                                
    
    I can't wait for the next Clapton concert :)
    
    

              The challenge you propose is a good one.  I also feel
         that we create our reality.  But how much of it do we create
         and how much of it is also intervention by other persons
         creating their realities.  And the question that follows is
         how much, if any, do we create of psi or other abilities?

              Looking at the cycles of nature we can see many thing
         going on.  We see the various life cycles of plants, humans
         and other animals.  We see starts, middles and endings.

              We don't just appear upon this earth without coming from
         somewhere.  We are in a continum, from one state of existance
         to another.  And from here to another.  I like to think of it
         as a time for growing in prevoiusly accepted ways or forms.

              To think that we are the only thinking beings in the
         universe is in direct contradiction with nature.  Other
         beings (animals) exist with us.  We only _seem_ to be at the
         top of the chain on the planet. This is only for physical
         forms. Just as there are different forms of life in the
         physical plane, ie. 1 cell creatures to what we know as
         humans, there are physical and non-physical forms.  Energy
         groupings or beings if you will.  These exist also.
         Sometimes these energies become so strong and large that they
         become "gods".

              These gods are created and maintained by energy
         transfers via emotions.  When we pray, we add energy to the
         gods and maintain them.  It is very possible to get in touch
         with gods that were created by our race many centuries ago.
         In the case of man I think we create and maintain all of our
         gods.  It would also seem logical that there are beings or
         things that are nonphysical and that were not created by
         mankind.

              The key to all this is the belief system.  We only do
         what we believe we can do.  We only believe what we believe
         we can believe.  This cannot be stated enough.  When we
         believe we can do what is otherwise out of the ordinary we
         sometimes find ways to do those things.  I am not refering to
         flying which would lead to destruction.  I am refering to
         adding to our senses.

              I have heard it said that a hostile person lives in a
         hostile world and that a loving perosn lives in a loving
         world.  The only difference lies in the belief system the
         individual keeps and maintains.

              If we allow ourselves to believe that other lifeforms
         exist we will find ways to "see" them. If we allow ourselves
         to believe that we are going to heaven we will.  If we allow
         ourselves to believe that we are going to hell, we will.  Another
         point here is that if we believe that we are isolated in life from
         the rest of all other life forms we will remain that way. 

              If we look at the cycles of nature and read in between
         the lines of physical life we will see a vast universe of
         beings and otherworld places that will astound us.  But this
         will happen only if we let ourselves believe that it can.

    	I can understand your desire for "proof", and can remember many
    years of being more and more disallusioned with "God" and traditional
    religions. I investigated witchcraft and the occult briefly, but
    not seriously, and eventually dismissed that too, in favor of Science.
    Science seemed the be-all and end-all for investigating truth and
    reality, which I learned much about and believed fervently...but
    which also depressed me like crazy, because it described a world
    which was heartless, cruel, and cold. 
    
	    While the specific scientific theories change from time to
    time, the overall world view became established and entrenched some time
    ago (at least in Europe, who's technical legacy we are still caught up
    in)...that the world is like a pinball machine, where distinct objects
    bounce off each other, make noise, score points (in a
    heirarchical/evolutionary sense), and ultimately fall out of existence.
    Even with the "modern" scientific ideas of quantum theory, the basic
    premise of a lifeless field of interacting units of energy is hardly
    any more pleasing, and it has the fatalistic interpretation tacked onto
    the classical view that we can't even know for sure what has or what
    will happen in the universe.
    
    	The problem I discovered, which finally completely turned around
    my understanding of 'life, the universe, and everything' was that
    I wasn't really allowing myself to see the world around me. Starting
    as a very young child...even as I learned to talk...my world view
    was being created for me. It included my belief system, a whole
    host of assumptions about reality, assumptions about my self and
    self image, and all of those factors which I would allow as evidence
    for any significant errors in my world view. Before I could believe
    in God, for example, I needed to be shown evidence which I could
    accept into my atheistic system of beliefs. This is a difficult
    situation, because while I very much WANTED God to exist, I had
    limited my openess to evidence by assumuing the nature of the God
    I saw no need for or evidence of. This is just one example, the
    same could be said for any "paranormal" phenomena.
    
    	While everyone learns about reality in their own way, there
    is a general "western world view" which pervades Europe, the Americas, 
    and now is almost completely dominant throughout the world. Like
    any world view, it is not explicitly understood in words, but rather
    is implicit in the understanding and experience of all people in
    the culture, unless those people go through a process of personal
    'cleansing.' This world view is riddled with complementary
    assumptions...each assumption of knowledge paired with an assumption
    of ignorance or denial. For me, some of the assumptions could be worded
    as, "There is one God", and the complementary assumption is, "I am not
    God". "Science is a necessary and sufficient explanation of reality" is
    paired with "religion and the supernatural are not essential, and
    cannot be observed rationally". 
    
    	My point is not the content of these specific assumptions, but
    the fact that assumptions like them exist inside everyone. Often,
    for one reason or other, we get disallusioned with the assumption
    of knowledge and no longer believe it, yet we often still hold fast
    to the assumption of ignorance, without realizing that we are assuming
    anything at all. 
    
    	I'm going on much too long about this, but I guess I just wanted
    to emphasize that "asking for evidence" is a very difficult request
    to fullfill. I assume you are looking for something which will convince
    you that "science is wrong, witchcraft is right" (for example).
    I think you'll find that reality is simply not so clear cut. What
    is, simply is, and stories people write about WHY they happen will
    always be just that, whether the story is written by a Nobel lauriet
    physisist, a faith healer in Ghana, or a software specialist in
    Massachusetts. 
    
    	For those interested, there are some relevant discussions going
    on in other conferences around the net...{REX,PAUPER}::RELIGION
    has a recent note talking about the Science/Religion question. 
    DSSDEV::ONTOLOGY talks about the question of Being itself, and about
    Phenomenology which is a science carefully constructed, yet widely
    misunderstood, to remove the assumptions and pre-suppositions from
    scientific investigations, and HYDRA::HOLISTIC has a couple of Notes
    dealing with Buddhism, which is the organized religion I found most
    open and subtle in its handling of many fundamental issues of
    conceptualizing reality. I find the method they recommend is nearly
    identical with phenomenology.
    
    	Ed

    	Here!, Here! Ed....Ain't that the truth!.......Jorge'

    re..5  What I get out of what your saying is for the most part is
    yes we do create our god's our ghost's and our demon's. Now that
    brings up the philisophical question of "is it real?" Now, I'd tend
    to say no. 
    
    In some of the other notes I've read people saying if your dabbling
    in the occult then you should protect yourself.  Well...from what?
    yourself?
    
    
    RE...6 Now I'm not looking for any quick easy answers like" one is right"
    and "one is wrong". I'm not so nieve to believe that. There is some
    truth in all religion regardless of sect or science. There has to
    be, simply because they all make the statement that they have the
    "real" truth.
    
    What I'm asking for here is " why do you beleive what you do?"
    And "Show me".
    
    Your " assumption of knowledge statement" is great! 
    And I feel that in some ways it applies to me.
    
    RE...7   Read my original note! My eyes are open!   Grrrr.
    
    
    Paul 
    
    

    Re .8:
    
    There are several points here, and more than one way to view reality.
    There's "absolute reality," which is probably only knowable to God.
    There's "material reality," which is what we can measure and quantify.
    There's "perceived reality," which is what we believe to be reality,
    whether it is or not.
    And there's "pragmatic reality," which is what works in dealing
    with whatever's outside us.
    
    Story:
    
    A Christian missionary'sd wife in an underdeveloped country one
    day was astonished to see her hired servant wipe dirty dishes with
    a damp cloth and then return them to the cabinet shelves rather
    than washing them first.
    
    "You mustn't do that," she said.  "It's necessary to wash them first."
    
    The seervant asked why.
    
    Realizing that he'd never heard of germs, she said, "Because there
    are small beings we casn't see who get on the plates and if we swallow
    them we'll get sick."
    
    A knowing look came into the servant's eyes.  He said, "I see. 
    But ... we _Christians_ don't believe in such things, do we?"
    
    <end>
    
    This whole area of "proof" is very slippery because we can't be
    sure just what mechanisms are at work.  What we _believe_ to be
    real might not be (and if we believe something just because we wish
    to believe it, we're looking for trouble).  But if it works, even
    if the model's actually wrong, it gives us a first step.
    
    As I've said elsewhere, it's okay to have an open mind; just don't
    have one that's _so_ open your brains fall out.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    About 15 years ago I had my first experience with ouija..
    3 of us were sitting around an apartment and the board was pulled
    out. We fooled around with it for 1/2 hour or so and had some....
    results...?....nothing that I'll mention cuz I can't verify any
    of it....we took a break.....they sat on the floor and i took the
    board and sit it on my lap while I sat on the couch...they talked
    awhile and I continued to play.....
    
    	after a little while the ????(thing that we lightly almost
    put our finger tips on) started moving...slowwlllyyyyy...to the
    letter...D...then...just as slowly..to the lettef F...this con-
    tinued for a few minutes...back and forth..D to F...I didn't tell
    my friends what had transpired....I got them to try it again...
    this time I tried real hard to keep my fingers from touching the
    movable object....if anyone was going to "push" the object..it
    wasn't going to be me......
    	ok...they didn't know about D and F
    	I (i believe) wasn't influencing the direction of the object
    by physical pressure
    
    	damn...after a few minutes the ?????went back to the F and D
    ....reverse order....but still the D and F....we aksed some
    questions and got some answers...all of which escapes me....
    
    	ok...is this evidence?
    	did I affect them psychically?
    	was my desire to have it work so strong that i shoved the D
    and F into their subconscious whereuopn they moved they ?????
    without my assistance to the proper letters?
    	was I actually moving the ????? thru psychic ability?
    	was I on drugs and the whole thing never happened?
    	was it coincidence....? there have been even more incredible
    examples of coincidence...
    
    
    	
    	

I had a rather scary experience with one [my *only* time].

I was with a couple of friends who were into this [I was still extremely 
skeptical at the time] and I decided I might like to sit in on a session.  
They had gotten in touch with an entity that still 'inhabited' someone else 
from time to time.  This someone else was trying to break up my marriage 
among other things [he finally succeeded].

By this time, my soon-to-be-ex-wife and I were on very good speaking terms, 
having gotten all of our anger out.  The 'someone else' had been having a 
hard time with her now that she was on her own and didn't like the change 
of roles.

As the session went on, I, like a fool, made some rather provocative 
statements to this entity.  Mind you, I'm still sitting to the side of the 
table.  The pointer started moving more and more violently as my 'taunting' 
seemed to strike a chord.  He was jealous of the relationship that my ex 
and I had managed to salvage out of the ashes of our marriage.  He was 
furious that he couldn't do the same.

All of a sudden, the pointer flew out from underneath the two people who 
were barely touching it with one hand only.  The thing literally lunged at 
my throat, point first!  One of my friends caught it in mid-air halfway 
between the board and my throat.

Spoooooky.

    	I have read enough replies in this Conference from enough people
    who dealt with Ouiji boards and other equipment for dealing with
    the "supernatural", and though I am skeptical about most "otherworldy"
    phenomenon, I do believe that other realities (universes) exist,
    containing beings who appear to be far more powerful (and malevolent)
    than we humans.  
    
    	After reading about all the dangerous experiences people have
    had with Ouiji boards - whether they be due to some psychic
    manifestation or actual contact with otherworldly beings - WHY do
    people still fool with these things?!  I would think that these
    experiences (I find most of the people in this Conference very sincere
    about what they do and say) would make everyone STOP contacting
    beings who would seem to love nothing better than destroy us!  I
    have read some notes from people who say they can "control" the
    situation - do you mean to say you have power over these creatures?
    I just don't see how.
    
    	I say this out of concern and not ridicule - stop being so curious
    about these other beings and worlds - they obviously just want to
    use you to get something (power?  Preparing for Armaggeddon?). 
    The knowledge isn't worth the price of your life!
                                                    
    	Larry
    

    Re .12:
    
    I tried to say in Note # 12 for people to take care, and again I
    urge people to read that note and its replies.
    
    However, _properly conducted_ investigations are something else.
    Serious investigations require protections and _control_.  The example
    in "A Sinister Seance" is a case in point.  The person I referred
    to as Trevor was talked into doing a seance; yet when things got
    out of hand, he was able to assert control and stop what was building.
    He even cleaned up the psychic traces afterward.  
    
    But most people don't bother with such precautions.  It's as if
    they're saying, "It can't hurt _me_...."
    
    Steve  Kallis, Jr.                     

    This is a little sketchy because I am still not sure that I want to
    discuss some of the detail.
    
    Last Halloween I attended a party. Quite harmless, and all that but
    I allowed myself against my better judgement to do a tarot reading when
    not completely sober (it was a party right, the others were convinced
    like it said in the little book that came with the cards that it was
    just a party game...)
    
    I didn't like the cards they offered me and used my own set I had taken
    along as a prop for my costume - an old Thoth deck. One of the young
    women present insisted that I read her fortune.
    
    I tried and couldn't get a clear reading - the significator cards wouldn't
    show up. On the third try they showed up, but all I got was an overpowering
    feeling of blankness. She died that night. Since then I have experienced
    a strange feeling of "spiritual oppression" as if something outside
    of me was controlling my actions in these and other areas.
    
    Since then I have had a number of powerful experiences: note the strange
    dream I relate elsewhere. I have also given tarot readings with a higher
    succuess rate than previously: on one occasion describing in detail
    problems with a forthcoming trip (bags going astray, being bounced off
    the flight etc) for a trip that wasn't even planned, on another describing
    a person that the subject would meet and start a relationship with down
    to their european origin and birth sign...
    
    Always I had the feeling that these things were external: that something
    was acting through me to do the readings.
    
    And then the feelings came to a climax on Candlemas (Feb 2). This is
    curious because Candlemas is another of the traditional "sabbath" dates.
    It is the ancient midwinter festival lying exactly half way between
    Halloween and May Day (strange how the early Christians took over the
    festivals of the Old Religion isn't it?). During a long sleepless night
    - I felt "hyperawake" - the cloud -- the presence if you will -- left
    me.
    
    Is it a coincidence that this started when I "played with fire" without
    taking precautions? is it a coincidence that this presence increased
    my sensitivity to the Talent? is it a coincidence that my efforts to
    rid myself of it finally worked on such a powerfully significant date?
    
    /. Ian .\

    Re .14:
    
    It's interesting that the events also _started_ on a Sabbat day.
    
    Like the "Sinister Seance" note, doing something against one's better
    judgement usually turns out to be a bad idea.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.