Conference hydra::dejavu

    Actually, to be pedantic, there are 64 hexagrams.  Six lines, each
    of which can be either of two states = 2^6 (2 to the 6th power)
    = 64.
    
    I've long been interested in the I Ching, but personally have never
    gotten very good results with it.  I'll keep trying, I suppose,
    but have had much better luck with the Tarot.
    
    				Topher

    A Westerner, I think it was Bertrand Russell (or was it
Jung?), once remarked that the _I_Ching_ is a marvelous device
for helping one think, even if it only works randomly (as
opposed to, say, in accordance with the tao).
    This is all from a strictly non-mystical viewpoint, and
though I've not actually seen Bertrand_or_is_it_Jung's remarks
about the _I_Ching_, I've given it some thought along these
same lines.  Basically, each hexagram leads to an abstract
approach to thinking - so abstract, that it can be applied to
anything.  The apparently_random selection process ensures that
we get an apparently_random variety of abstract thoughts to get
help from.  The ritual serves to relax the mind a bit, opening
it to receive the wisdom.  (The relaxed mind is also more likely
to go with the tao, if you believe in the tao.)
    If you take the abstract thought you've gotten from the _I_
_Ching_ and stick with it - interpret it - actually *force* it
on your problem, the synergistic effects alone could account for
the problem being solved!
    It is for this reason that I'm quite a fan of COOKIE prog-
rams and the like.  A good COOKIE program (like a good barrel)
full of fortune cookies) has lots of thoughtful epigrams, and
some of them may even contradict each other.  But pick one at
random, and impose it on your problem, and your righteous per-
sistance will probably yield just reward.
    Unfortunately, both COOKIE programs and fortune cookies have
too many "daily horoscope" epigrams ("You will meet a tall dark
handsome stranger.") which don't stimulate any creativity.
		<_Jym_>
P.S.:  If anybody has a public-domain copy of an _I_Ching_
program (especially one along the lines of the Unix ching
utility), let me know!

    Thats one way of looking at it, Jym!  There are other ways.  By
    the way (by the Tao?), Jung's remarks are in the Wilhelm translation
    (he wrote the introduction).   Of course, if you "beleive" in Tao,
    then there is a another explantion, viz, that you can get "connected"
    with the Tao with your stalk throwing or coin throwing.  
    
    While the advice is abstract, some of it applies to specific
    situations.  For example, I consulted the oracle twice recently
    concerning some love problems and drew 31 Influence (Wooing) which
    addresses the relationship between man and women.  The first moving
    lines addressed the danger in the situation which subsequently
    unfolded.  The next moving line (on the second consultation) addresses
    the after affects of the unfolding.
    
    Anyway, its worth a try.  The book is full of wisdom if nothing
    Here is a sample which I had typed in anyway as part of a short
    story I was writing.
   

"Nine in the fourth place means:

Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
If a man is agitated in mind,
And his thoughts go hither and thither,
Only those friends
On whom he fixes his conscious thoughts
Will follow.



Here the place of the heart is reached.  The impulse that springs from this
source is the most important of all.  It is of particular concern that
this influence be constant and good; then, in spite of the danger arising
from the great susceptibility of the human heart, there will be no cause
for remorse.  When the quiet power of a man's own character is at work,
the effects produced are right.  All those who are receptive to the vibrations
of such a spirit will then be influenced.  Influence over others should
not express itself as a conscious and willed effort to manipulate them.
Through practicing such conscious excitement, one becomes wrought up and
is exhausted by the external stress and strain.  Moreover, the effects produced
are then limited to those on whom one's thoughts are consciously fixed." 



I Ching, or Book of Changes

Wilhelm/Beynes Translation Copyright 1977 Princeton University Press

From Hexagram 31 Influence (Wooing)
           

    
    	Although I have never consulted the I-ching in regard to decision
    	making or influencing, as a long-time practitioner of the martial
    	arts & oriental philosophy we were taught that the I-Ching
    	is a series of calculated steps broken down to a certain 	
    	mathematical power which if you will "photographs" different
    	aspects of your Chi (energy/life force/ruach) at a particular
    	moment in time.  Know then that the consulting of the passages
    	is for that moment in time and if your state of being changes
    	afterwards so will your throws.
    
    	An excellent book called 'The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan' by Jou Tsung
    	Wa offers in his backround of Yin-Yang and the Tai Chi, a 
    	comprehensive explanation of the progression from the one to
    	the 64, and helps put it in a more understandable light.
    
    	Also realize that although the Wilhelm-Jung books are excellent
    	(I am reading 'The secret of the Golden Flower' now) they are
    	works that were done at the height of German intellectualism	
    	and the translated works are viewed as either too mystical/occult
    	or too psychological.  We have a much better understanding today
    	of Eastern thought and how it is harmonious withthe world around
    	us, as opposed to being strictly alien.
    
    	Another book which might help explain the way modern thought
    	is now linking closer with ancient eastern  thinking is 
    	'The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra.  It examines some 
    	modern theories about sub-quantum physics and the duality of
    	nature to Eastern thinkers.  Any comments on that should probably
    	not even go in this notes (sorry) conference file.
    
    	Bruce Cohen
    

> Of course, if you "[believe]" in Tao, then there is another
> explanation, viz, that you can get "connected" with the Tao
> with your stalk throwing or coin throwing.

    You bet!  The not-thinking state of mind (which is how one
connects with the Tao - or whatever one's discipline calls its
version of the Tao) meshes well with ritual.
    I was once hacking for a small little software company
which used the _I_Ching_ to guide business decisions.  While I
don't think that everybody in the company believed in its use,
the discussions that were inspired by the imposition of the _I_
_Ching_ reading on the state of the company were very fruitful.
    In the psychology of creativity, there is the concept of a
"forced relationship," where one takes a random entity and
uses it in the consideration of a problem.  Sometimes this
works by synergy (example:  the clock-radio was invented by
somebody who put the entities "clock" and "radio" together).
At other times it derails current train of thought, and lets
the (perhaps Tao-guided) subconscious mind work on it (example:
Einstein got his best ideas while shaving).
    Choosing something to use in a forced relationship is often
a matter of randomizing.  Another approach is to turn to nature,
which is a source of many many ideas (example:  the idea for
radar/sonar comes from the fact that bats and porpoises use
them).  A book of wisdom like the _I_Ching_ is, of course, a
good source.
    The psychology of creativity also, by the way, stresses a
"not-thinking" approach:  Subconscious consideration is encour-
aged, and there is a strong emphasis on "deferjudice" - being
receptive and deferring judgement.  All of this converges with
the Eastern approach!
		<_Jym_>

    What do you use to cast the I Ching?  Does anyone use the yarrow
    sticks?  Do you alway use the same coins, or ones that have some
    meaning to you?  
    
    marianne
    

    I use whatever coins I have handy, usually 3 pennies.  I received
    some old coins for Christmas that are specifically for the I Ching,
    but I can never find them when I need them.  Can anyone explain
    how the sticks are used?
    
    		Dave

    I just use vanilla coins, different each time.
                   John H.

    re .1:
    
    A close perusal of the hexagram progression will reveal it's a pire
    binary progression, immediately obvious for any of those who (like
    me) had to toggle things into a "programmer's panel" using a switch
    register, such as on my old PDP-8/E.
    
    This iimplies a lot of interesting things for those of an
    Eastern-philosophy bent, like making the hexagram values the cosmic
    equivalent of an instruction set. :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

>        This iimplies a lot of interesting things for those of an
>    Eastern-philosophy bent, like making the hexagram values the cosmic
>    equivalent of an instruction set. :-)

    You mean they're not??? ;-)
    
    	Ed
    
    

    Let's see:  INPUT = CLA CLL
	       OUTPUT = "Righteous Persistance Yields Just Reward"
    It works!
		 .-----.
		/  o o  \
		\ \___/ /
		 `-----'
		 <_Jym_>

    re .11:
    
    Hmm!  I always wondered why I liked PDP-8s! :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    

    
    re: .13
    
    I don't know if I would necessarily compare yin energy to the dark
    side.  Or perhaps I'm not understanding how you mean "dark".  As
    I was reading your reply, I thought of the breathing process -
    inhale is yin, exhale is yang - each needs the other to keep the
    process of life going.  Yin energy is receptive, negative, female
    energy which is not limited to female humans, but exists in all
    of us and may not be as active in some people as it is in others.
    
    I'm not sure if I am getting across what I want to say about this,
    I just had to say something!
    
    Carole
    

RE: .14
    
    The concept symolized by the yin/yang symbol is that the universe
    is intrinsically dual in nature.  The yin/yang therefore also
    symbolizes all specific instances of this, i.e., all dichotomies.
    
    Thus, in the specific dichotomy of good/evil, yang symbolizes "good"
    and yin symbolizes "evil".  Similarly in the light/dark dichotomy
    yang symbolizes "light" and yin symboloizes "dark".
    
    It is incorrect, however, to go from the statement that "evil is
    an example of what is symbolized by yin" to the statement that "yin
    is evil".
    
    An aspect of yin/yang which is frequently neglected is that the
    two are inseperable -- neither can exist without the other and the
    two "interpenetrate".  In the chi, the traditional representation
    for yin/yang (yes this is the same word as in Tai Chi, and is cognate
    with the Japenese word "ki" used in Aikido) this is represented
    by the curved interpenetrating nature of the two parts of the circle.
    This is to contrast it with the simpler alternative (rejected and
    therefore never used) of simply dividing the circle in half with
    a straight line.  Frequently this point is emphasized by placing
    a spot of contrasting color in the center of each region.  An example
    of this can be seen, I believe, on the South Korean flag.  Very
    occasionally, the spots are in turn in the form of the "chi" symbol,
    implying an infinite (today some might even refer to it as "fractal"
    regress of admixture.
    
    					Topher

    	The best way to understand "good" and "evil" in relation to
    Yin and Yang is not to associate the concepts directly. Rather "good"
    implies an appropriate balance between Yin and Yang, while "evil"
    or "bad" indicates an imbalance between Yin and Yang.
    
    	For anyone interested in really getting a practical understanding
    of Yin and Yang, find some books on either Taoist diet and cooking,
    or some macrobiotic books, especially those by Mishio Kushi.
    Macrobiotics is a natural foods diet, based on the concepts of Yin
    and Yang. The idea is that disease can be cured and health maintained
    by balancing one's own body between Yin and Yang. There is some
    discussion of this in HYDRA::HOLISTIC, though I keep meaning to
    add more. 
    
    	I was a philosophy student when I discovered the diet, and was
    fascinated by how simple yet powerful the concepts of Yin and Yang
    become when they are on such a practical level as food and immediate
    environment. Also, after trying the diet for four months, and talking
    since then to many people who have been using it, I believe it can
    heal some ills that 'modern' medical science can't touch.
    
    	Ed
    
    	

I figured this was a more appropriate note for this question...
    
    Tiger
    ........
    
             <<< HYDRA::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
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Note 1566.14                     I Ching program                        14 of 14
DBOT14::RUSSELL                                       7 lines  23-APR-1992 10:58
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    I bought the WIlhelm version of the I Ching....yet I am becoming quite 
    muddled trying to use it. Is there any 'user guide' or 'read me first'
    with this epic tome?
    
    cheers,
    
    *Tiger*

    -1,
    
    Yes, I have found R. L. Wing's _I Ching_ text to be an especially 
    helpful introduction.  It is in workbook format.
    
    Karen

    thanks Karen,
    
    Is this book you refer to all I would need (along with the I Ching
    itself) to use the book....does it tell me how to use the coin
    or yarrow stalk method and how to interpret their meanings?
    
    cheers,
    
    *Tadhg*

    Tadhg,
    
    Wing's book uses the coin method and imo, does very well in 
    offering clear interpretations.  Though it does not come close
    to exploring I Ching philosophy as deeply as Wilhelm's work.
    
    If you're interested in I Ching philosophy, you may need an
    "intermediate" book that would bridge the learnings of Wing's
    with those of Wilhelm.  Unfortunately, since I did not explore
    the I Ching to this depth, I cannot make a recommendation.  But
    perhaps someone else can.
    
    You could also try a metaphysical bookstore, or one that has a
    very well stocked eastern philosophy section.  I don't know where
    you live, but Borders bookstore in Framingham MA offers much in the
    line of eastern philosophy, and WordsWorth in Harvard Square, 
    Cambridge MA does too.  (Borders also has this *terrific* coffee shop
    on the second floor, where you can sip on cappuccino and read your
    new book(s) to your heart's content. :-) )
    
    Hope this is helpful,
    
    Karen    

    Karen,
    
    	would love to meet you for Coffee, but it might prove to be very
    	expensive for me, unless you'd like to pick up the tab.
    
    	I live in Ireland...8^)
    
    	cheers, and thanks for the help.
    
    *tadhg*

    Well, this might be going in a different direction from what Tadhg
    is looking for, but an excellent reference for I Ching and other
    Chinese Philosophy per se is Wing Tsit-Chan's 
    _Sourcebook_of_Chinese_Philosophy_.  It doesn't cover the practicum
    of I Ching divination, though.  
    
    Several versions of I Ching interpretation are covered by books from 
    Shambhala Press.  I found it very useful to obtain several of them
    and combine them to learn the methods.  Particularly useful for me
    were _The_Fortune_Teller's_I_Ching, which has a bit on practical
    advice, ( I don't recall whether it covered yarrow stalks), and
    The_Tao_of_Organization, which had the most directly understandable 
    explanation of the I Ching passages, at least for me.   It might be
    worthwhile to browse them if you see them in a bookstore.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    Hi Kb,
    
    Can you post directions to Borders Bookstore in Framingham or a pointer
    if they already exist online.  Been wanting to go there for awhile and
    the coffee shop cinched it!  ;')
    
    Ro
    
    p.s.  The book you sent me arrived safely.  The pictures are wonderful.
    I'm sure both Dr and I will enjoy it!!
    

    *tadhg*,
    
    > would love to meet you for coffee, but it might prove to be 
    > very expensive for me, unless you'd like to pick up the tab...
    
    I could if I cashed in part of my library, BUT...an idea like
    that is blasphemous. :-)
    
    Roey,
    
    Borders is on Rt 9 in Framingham, nestled in between Ken's Steak
    House and Shopper's World.  It's located in a large english tudor style
    building on the north side of Rt 9.  Don't know their hours off-hand, 
    but their phone # is 508-875-2321.  Let me know when you'll be going, 
    (I'm there at least once a week); maybe we can meet at the coffee shop!
    
    Kb
    

    
    Let me know too Roey.  Border's is a great place and their coffee
    is yummy!  Plus, I like looking through bookstores with you and
    Kb. ;^)
    
    Carole

    Tadhg,
    A fiend of mine Pearl who reads the Tarot and know alot of the
    I Ching is living here in Galway.  Give me a buzz 890-2327 and
    I'll put you in touch.
    Dave
    
    PS  Pearl who is an ex-Dejavu'er and ex-Dec is setting up her own
        shop/Tarot business in Galway.  So if you're visiting, I'm
        sure she would love to chat with any of you.  The shop is
        to be called "Pearls of Wisdom".
    

    Dave,
    
    Yes, Pearl wrote about her plans in Dejavu and of her trip to
    California.  Glad to hear that all is going well for her and her dreams
    are manifesting!!
    
    Ro (who has visited Galway on several occasions and would love to
    again!)
    
    

    re: .28 (Dave)
    
        Say "hi!" to Pearl for me, please!  I met with her in San Francisco
    while she was here, but lost track of her (tried to call, but
    unsuccessfully.)  Glad she's finding herself with her dreams
    manifesting so faithfully!
    
    Frederick
    

I don't "Ching!"	:-)
								- JIM CAD*

    Is it head=2 and tails=3 or the opposite?  I can't remember.  Does
    anyone know?

Mary,
  My understanding is that you decide which is which.  Just make up your mind
before you throw and stick to that.
  FWIW, I take heads=3 (yang), tails=2(yin).

Ronan

    Oh... thank you...