Conference hydra::dejavu

    
     I get a bad feeling anytime someone attempts supression
    of a book or even a cover. I'm not accusing you of anything,
     just expressing my nervousness about someone potentially imposing
     their will to alter something like this, even though the book sounds
    like senseless, exploitive garbage from the description. I just
    don't like anyone deciding for me what I should be exposed to.
                
    Paul W.

    
    Reply to...
    < Note 1048.1 by VICKI::WHEELER "Computers are a passing fad" >

    It's not suppression, it's education. The publisher has the power
    and right to publish what they think will sell. It's in my power
    and ability to let them know I'm deeply offended by their product.
    
    Just yesterday I was talking to my priestess. She came out of the
    closet with her family. Her youngest brother, a newly reformed Mormon,
    shut her off like a light saying "I only know what the media tells
    me about Witchcraft." this man gets his information from newspapers
    and books. When talked to by a real Pagan he refused to enter a
    dialogue.
    
    I'n not interested in censorship. I'm interested in education.

Message #3450 "MAGICKNET Echo"
Date: 05-May-89 09:07
From: Rowan Moonstone
To:   All
Subj: ALERT! (This kind of shit we don't need)
 
         My HPS received the following action alert this week: The
     following was sent to us as an open letter to the pagan community
     urging our cooperation in writing to the mentioned publisher and
     trying to get them to change the cover of this book.  This is exactly
     the kind of slanderous material that we need to guard against.  A
     concerted effort will be needed to put enough pressure onto this
     publisher to make the changes necessary.  This is exactly the kind of
     lurid trash the pagan community needs to gather it's force to banish. 

          Your future is at the stake----literally.    Enclosed is the
     promo information for a book scheduled to be released in June.  The
     leader"Witchcraft and Ritual Murder, an Ugly Crime- And It's On
     Ryker's Ture" is currently planned to be on the back cover.  Note
     also the phrase that pairs" Pagan Worship" and "bizarre sex". This is
     also on the cover.     
         
         I work at an independent bookseller in Austin and I am doing
     buying on several mass market lines, including Simon & Schuster's
     Pocket Books.  When I saw the promo cover I objected to the
     publishers rep who was taking my order.  I was reasonable and calm,
     but I made the point that the juxtaposition of "Witchcraft" and
     "ritual murder" , as well as "Pagan worship" and "bizarre sex" was
     highly offensive. 
  
          I took the opportunity to educate the rep about Paganism and
     Witchcraft, the sense of ethics held, and recommended a few books
     for further documentation. 
  
          One of the points I made was a comparison between Pagans today
     and Jews of old.  It was once a standard accusation that Jews killed
     babies for their rituals.  These lies were used in Europe and
     elsewhere to justify killing and persecution of the Jews.  Were these
     absurd lies to have been resurrected for a novel such as this, the
     outcry would echo across the country.  He was quite receptive to my
     viewpoint and promised to take the issue up with the appropriate
     people.  He assured me that it is not uncommon for covers to be
     changed prior to final publication in response to objections of this
     sort. 
  
          He asked me if this could perhaps be just a matter of lack of
     information.
 
          I told him there could perhaps be two reasons for this.  One
     could be a simple ignorance, combined with centuries of
     misinformation and lies.  The solution here is more education so this
     mistake is not repeated.  Two, it could reflect deliberate malice on
     the part of the copy writer.  As we are well aware there is a
     concerted effort by certain groups to spread lies about those who do
     not share their narrow religious viewpoint.  If this was the
     situation here, the solution is to educate the people higher up in
     the decision process so that they will know enough to catch these
     things before they go into print. 
   
          This alert is being distributed to various pagan publications,
     organizations, and individuals in order to provide the Pagan
     community the opportunity to educate one of this nations major
     publishers.  Their office address is on the reverse of the copy of
     the promo material.  Please write today.  Please share this with any
     person, group, or publication you know who is not on my original
     list.  Please encourage them to write. 
   
          Failure to respond to things of this sort, failure to educate
     where the opportunity arises is dangerous.  Some may not be able to
     speak out because of the fear of being fired from where they work.
     But if those of us who can speak out fail to do so, they will never
     be able to do so.  If we do speak out when we need to, those of us
     who can, we can hope that one day no one need fear persecution for
     being Pagan.  If we do not act when we need to, those who can, we can
     hope that those who brought the "Burning" before will never be able
     to do so again. 
         
Blessed Be 
Will

         Dolmen Publications
         P O Box 3076
         Austin, TX. 78764
         POCKET BOOKS ADDRESS IS ;
         Office phone 212-698-7000
 
Message #3451 "MAGICKNET Echo"
Date: 05-May-89 09:11
From: Rowan Moonstone
To:   All
Subj: Cont'd
 

         The promo information on the book is as follows:
 
         THE HAMMER OF GOD, by Jack Cannon,
  
          The Hammer of God is the second novel in the six-book series
     starring maverick cop Joe Ryker.  Millions of police thriller fans
     will love Ryker's brand of "Dirty Harry" style crime fighting. 
  
          A man in monk's robes, The Hammer of God, is butchering women
     to cleanse the world of Witches.  And New York homicide detective Joe
     Ryker is committing every sin in the book to cleanse New York of
     killers. 
   
          Beneath the wealth, the squalor and the hustle of Manhattan, a
     string of sickening murders has opened the door on a secret world of
     Pagan worship and bizarre sex. Detective Joe Ryker is going
     underground.  He's got to find the Hammer of God and stop him- any
     way he can. " 

    I called Simon and Shuster at the number listed. Patrick in publicity
    is unaware of any such book and is supposed to call me back in a
    few minutes.
    
    Dolmen Publications is not listed in the Austin phone book.
    
    Simon and Shusters address is:
    
    Simon and Shuster
    1230 6th Ave.
    N.Y., N.Y. 10020
    
    Since no one knows about this book I'd write to the President or
    CEO.

         The number to call to voice your concern about "The Hammer of
     God" Ryker series is 201-767-5054. This should be Pocket Books
     customer service number. Should that number be incorrect call Simon
     and Shuster at 212-698-7000 and ask for Pocket Book's customer
     service number.
        

    
    
    "Pagan worship AND bizarre sex"... hmmm doesn't the *AND* separate
    the two topics? Sort of like ...
    
    	Go to the store to pick up a paper AND stop and get gas for
    	the auto.
    
    or
    
    	Truth, justice *AND* the American way????
                 
    we dont think gas is available at the news stand, and we dont think
    truth and justice is .....  ok, ok, ill give a ring... (now that
    I have worked the sarcasm out of my blood.)
    
    Craig ;-)

    re .6
    
    I'm reminded of a scene from a Woody Allen movie -
    
    Psychiatrist:  "Do you think sex is dirty?"
    
    Woody:  "Only if it's done right."
    
    ;-)
    
    Richard

         The number to call to voice your concern about "The Hammer of
     God" Ryker series is 201-767-5054. This should be Pocket Books
     customer service number. Should that number be incorrect call Simon
     and Shuster at 212-698-7000 and ask for Pocket Book's customer
     service number.
         
         Since I don't have Usenet access please reply to me by mail.

         I called again today and got through to Pocket Books. I was
     instructed to write Simon and Shuster, 1230 Avenue of the Americas,
     N.Y., N.Y. 00020. Address the concern to The Editor referencing the
     authors name and book title. Additionally you can write to the author
     via the above address.

    
    No flames but I think you should be aware that what you are advocating
    IS censorship.  If you were truly interested in education, write your
    own book and don't let them censor it by trying to stop publication.
    I have no idea what it is that offends you about the book nor if the
    book is truly offensive (I surely wouldn't buy it) but anytime someone
    tells someone else what they can write or not write, that IS
    censorship no matter how offensive what they write is to anybody.
    This is just my opinion and should be taken as just that but I don't
    want you or anybody else to tell me what I can or cannot write or the
    next thing you have is Khomenei vs. Rushdie and that IS censorship.

    hmmm...  mikie? what _is_ the difference between preventing
    publication of ideas with which you don't agree,  and burning
    books with which you don't agree????
    
    /bruce
    

There is a differents between censorship and guarding against libel.  I have
only known about Wicca and Paganism(sp) from what I have read and hear from
friends.  After meeting someone who belongs (?) to Wicca who I feel is a
honest person, I now believe that I was lied to about Wicca and Paganism(sp).
I don't like that.  If this claims to be a work of non-fiction I have a big
problem with it.  If it is a work of fiction I just won't buy it and I
agree that it is censorship.

-Darryl
imokay::wagoner

    Reply to the last -.2,
    
    I don't think it's censorship. I have absolutely NO power to stop
    the publication.
    
    However I do have the right to educate the Editor and the author.
    Do you call that censorship???? Why?

    Reply to .0,
    
    Your base note has me confused. Could you elaborate? 
    

    I assume you menat this as a reply to 1048 (moderator help requested).
    I also assumed it was fiction due to it being one in a series about a
    detective or something.  My point was merely that even the fiction vs
    non-fiction distinction doesn't hold.  Carlos Casteneda is sold as
    non-fiction (shich I believe it to be) but many peopl do not think that
    it is.  However, dissaggreeing with someone is not a valid reason to
    not let them say whatever they want to say.  Personally, I believe the
    bible lies but if I were to advocate not letting it be published, I
    would hear many cries of censorship.  If I were to advocate not letting
    Pagans publish their views on the subject, many people would cry
    censorship.  I am not advocating that becasue I believe in EVERYBODIES
    write to say whatever they want and to even call it truth if they want.
    I don't have to believe them because I have the freedom to not do so.

    Maybe I am confused because I made some assumptions about your deleted
    base note.  I thought you were advocating calling to complain about the
    publication of the book and to suggest that they not publish it.  If I
    assumed to much, I apologize.  I certainly feel that you have the write
    to educate, I just cringe when people suggest that books should not be
    published because they don't agree with what is being said.

    
    
     Reply to...
    < Note 1050.2 by AZTECH::EDWARDS "Mr. Fusion or Fusion-san?" >

    >I am not advocating that becasue I believe in EVERYBODIES
    write to say whatever they want and to even call it truth if they want.<
                                                                            
    Then would you agree that I have the right to let the publishers and
    author know I am offended (hypothetical at this point) by the material? 

    
    
    Reply to...
    < Note 1048.12 by AZTECH::EDWARDS "Mr. Fusion or Fusion-san?" >
               
    The base note was deleted, edited and reposted as a later reply.
    
    I think the misunderstanding came when in the original article the
    tone was to 'banish', which is very easy to associate with censor.
    I'd probably make that association myself.

    The replies following this were moved here from note 1050.* by
    the moderator.
    
    	- Bill Keefe

    
    Reply to...                             
    < Note 1050.4 by AZTECH::EDWARDS "Mr. Fusion or Fusion-san?" >

         I just read and posted to that reply. Thanx.
    
         Perhaps we might explore some situations here.
    
         In this hypothetical situation and little known atheist writes a
     book about twisted fundamentists of a world religion in a socially
     unstable northern Euorpean country who import into their religious
     belief system the sacrifice or purging of innocents, specifically the
     sacrifice/purging of those children belonging to the 'other' groups
     and taken from various passages in their ancient script. 
                            
         What is the appropriate social response to this book?
    
         What is the politically correct response to this book?
    
         What is your personal response to this book?

    
    In my opinion, the appropriate social response is for people to publish
    their reactions to such book such that they offer an alternative to
    anyone reading th original and showing how ridiculous and even
    offensive the book was.
    
    There is now appropriate political response because the original writer
    had the right to believe and publish anything he wanted.  
    
    The point I am trying to make is that choices are made by people and
    they should not be forced into any choice by only having 'appropriate'
    things presented to them because I don't know ANYONE capable of
    deciding what is 'appropriate' for me to hear or read.  The
    fundamentalists can try and stop any publication about paganism and the
    pagans can try and stop any publication about fundamentalism but 
    THEY ARE BOTH VIOLATING MY RIGHT TO CHOOSE if they do so.
    
    This is the main problem I have with most fundamentalist.  They are
    trying to say that I should not be exposed to anything other than what
    they believe to be truth.  I say, I'll choose my own truth, thank you
    very much. 
    
    Please note that this is no longer in response to the base note because
    I have  assumed something false about the base noter (that he was
    trying to stop publication) and that this is now about censorship in
    general.
    

    I meant 'no appropriate political response' not 'now'.

If I claimed that Digital was doing something unethical and it got printed
do you really thing Digital would set back say "oh well just freedom of
the press."  ?  Or how about this.  A new TV show comes out where the
hero is fighting  DIGITAL that has taken over the drug market in the US.
Every week our hero goes up against the evil DIGITAL.  

Read anything bad about the Church of Scientology?  That is censorship!

    Re: Me,
    
    "What is the appropriate social response to this book?" I posed these
    questions to explore the various differences bewteen the different
    perceptions. The social response would include legal and political
    responses. The social response would be to ignore the book. Had it been
    written by a well known atheist the book might not be ignored. In
    such a case critiques could be used to difuse any real threat.
    Education is best. 
    
    "What is your personal response to this book?" A personal response
    depends heavily upon ones perception of their world and the book
    itself. If a personal threat is perceived a response might be to
    write the publisher and author, stating ones concerns.
    
    "What is the politically correct response to this book?"  Politically
    correct addresses the views of a part of a subculture. Ie, the
    feminists view, the fundamentalist view, etc. This response is
    conditioned by the view of a group or association. This response could
    be outrage or condemnation. 
         
         

    re:
          <<< Note 1048.23 by GALACH::MORGAN "All Hail Informatia!" >>>

    
    "What is the appropriate social response to this book?"

    Social response is just institutional response invoked
    nominally in the name of a majority of "personal" responses
    of members of the society, usually in the cause of censorship.
      
    "What is your personal response to this book?" 
    
    This is (to me) the only authentic response, and as you
    suggested, can be public or private agreement or disagreement.
    Threats of boycott or legal action are attempts at censorship.
    If you really have the "facts" or the "truth,"  you will prevail.
    
    "What is the politically correct response to this book?" 
    
    This is as insidious as "social" response.  Rather 
    than weigh the evidence, politically correct reactions
    judge on the basis of comparison with an ideology, again
    with the goal of suppression of non-conforming ideas.
    
    
    I believe that a viewpoint that states "the masses are just
    unable to [correctly] decide for themselves is arrogant,
    elitist, and ultimately unconvinced of the "truth" of
    one's own position.
    
    
    Advocating or allowing the suppression of other's ideas is equivalent
    to advocating the suppression of one's own.
    
    /bruce

    

    We live in a complicated, confusing, seemingly incomprehensible
    reality.  I don't think that man-made rules will enable
    us to see the "truth" any more clearly.
    
    I think that suppression of ideas is ultimately more
    dangerous that the unbridled free expression of ideas.
    
    /bruce

If i "educate" (or, some might say, vent my displeasure on) the editor/publisher
of this book, it will most likely not affect the publication or distribution of
this book in any significant way.

But, it just MAY make those folks think twice the next time they evaluate a
manuscript that stereotypes and/or libels the particular group that this book
does.  That's not really censorship, since it doesn't compel a "correct"
response...it merely forces some folks to think of the implications of the
message they might be propagating rather than just passing it on with their
usual cultural biases operating in auto-pilot mode.

If you look at the slow evolution of our entertainment media's portrayals of
blacks, orientals and amerindians away from demeaning stereotypes, this is the
kind of pressure that has been used effectively to make people in the industry
face up to the shallowness and inaccuracy of what they had been purveying.
								paul

    was it Daniel Webster who said
    
      "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend
       to the death your right to say it"
    
    
    /bruce

    I have mixed feelings about all of this.
    
    On one hand, this kind of mis-portrayal of Paganism is dangerous
    to Pagans.  What would be the response if you substitute the word
    "Pagan" and "Witchcraft" with "Jews" and "Judaism".  I think it
    would be total outrage from the Jewish community, combined with
    lawsuits for libel.  Be reminded that Jews have been accused of
    the same things that witches are, so this isn't that far fetched.
    
    On the other hand, there are more Christians who can call to lobby
    that Pagan books not be published than there are the other way.
    While most Pagans don't object to books with titles like "The Bible
    and Your Life" (just don't buy them), some Christians object to
    anything that is not specifically Christian.  Publishers are in
    business to make money - the larger ones can't afford to alienate
    large groups of people.  So Mikie, in lobbying publishers and urging
    others to do likewise, you *do* have the power to prevent publication
    of books.
    
    I think the best thing we can do is to try to disseminate *real*
    information to offset the bad information that is out there.
    
    Elizabeth

Re < Note 1048.27 by HYDRA::LARU "Surfin' the Zuvuya" >
>                              -< another view... >-
>
>    was it Daniel Webster who said
>    
>      "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend
>       to the death your right to say it"
>    
>    
>    /bruce

No, it was Voltaire.  Most people do not sympathize with the above sentiment.

/Mike

    
    And on the other hand....
    
    	If at any time you are in agreement with what a publisher or
    whatever is doing... You have the freedom to show you satisfaction
    with them. I dont think we should only show our discontentment with
    products but should show our satisfaction also. ;-)