Conference hydra::dejavu

    I have not read the book.  However, I know that Adolph Hitler was
    reputed to believe in prophetic dreams and consulted astrologers.
    
    Steve kallis, Jr.
    

    	At the risk of embarasing myself, is there any truth to the
    movie RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK that Hitler was out to get such power
    bits of the supernatural as the Lost Ark and such?
    
    	It's funny though how Lucas and Spielberg had to claim that
    the Ark of the Covenant laid waste to the Israelites' enemies by
    acting like a laser weapon, when in the Bible the Ark rendered their
    enemies helpless by giving them HEMMEROIDS!
    
    	Larry
    

    To give a little background to this: Britain does not have a freedom 
    of information act, instead when government papers are 30 years  old 
    they  are  placed  in  publicly  accessible archives (they are first 
    reviewed to see whether any of the material should not be  released, 
    some  is  held  for  100  years,  some  given another 30 and some is 
    destroyed or put on indefinite hold, but that is another story...)
    
    Anyway  in  1975  a  whole slew of stuff captured from the Nazis was 
    released.  Amongst the stuff was the records of  a  unit  Hitler had 
    established to work on "directed psychic energy weapons". apparently 
    Hitler gave this as much credence as the work to  develop  the  V-1, 
    V-2 and so on.
    
    Unfortunately  the  actual  experimental data was placed on 100 year 
    hold, so we'll have to wait till 2075 to find  out  what  they  were 
    doing unless we can find another source of information.
    
    It  caused  a  small  ripple  of interest at the time, but the press 
    story was buried in the bigger story of the release  of  Churchill's 
    war papers...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Re .2:
    
    Trevor Ravenscroft wrote a book, _Spear of Destily_ where he claims
    that the spear that pierced Jesus side while He was on the Cross
    traveled through history with a great occult significance, and that
    Hitler wanted to use it to help him prevail.
    
    I haven't finished the book yet....
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

re .5

>see also _Morning of the Magicians_ by Pauwel and Berger
>(you old hippies remember that one, don't you?)

    Sure we do.  I also remember that they published two more books
    together.  I've got them at home if anyone is interested in the titles.
    I thought "Morning" was the best of the three.  I recall reading in 
    it or someother book from the same period that Gurdieff was the 
    person who was supposed to have suggested the swastika to Hitler for 
    use as the Nazi symbol.  In a lecture I attended, Dr Joseph Jochmans 
    of the Ancient Mysteries Research Institute (AMRI) said that Hitler's 
    swastika was a mirror image of the American Indian symbol.  The 
    Indian symbol was a positive power symbol and Hitler's was a negative 
    power symbol.  That was supposed to be why Hitler eventually lost.  I 
    don't know much about symbols.  Back to the authors,  I remember the
    spelling to be Pauwels and Bergier.  They are French and I believe
    they published a magazine called "Planetes" or something like that.
    Bergier later published some other books along the same lines on
    his own.  I've gone one or two of those also.  I recommend "Morning"
    to anyone interested in unusual stuff.  The Hitler info is only a
    small part of it.

    Mike

    Re: .6 and others

    The Nazi swastika IS the mirror image of the ancient Indian mystic sign.
    In one the arms are pointed clockwise, and in the other anti-clockwise
    (I forget which is which).

    The Nazis are said to have practiced occult rituals as a means of cementing
    the bond between the members, and to reinforce an attitude of unquestioning
    obedience.

    They believed that the earth is hollow (yes, hollow), and we live on the
    inside surface of this hollow sphere. The stars and other celestial bodies
    were suspended in the middle. In the early days of the testing of the V-2
    rockets, they pointed these rockets straight up, based on their belief that
    England and U.S.A were on the other side of the hollow.


    -- Rav Karwan

    Re .7:
    
    It's more accurate to say that _some_ of them believed the earth
    was hollow.  This was based on the "Geokosmos" theory, though for
    the life of me, I can't remember the author's name.  It was not
    a new theory, going back to (at least) the latter part of the 19th
    Century, though the German version had far more details worked out.
    
    As far as pointing the V-2s (or A-4s, as the Germans of the time
    knew them), they'd have to be pointed "up" anyway.  Concavity or
    convexity is no factor.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    
    I find it *very* difficult to believe that scientists who can launch
    V2 rockets accurately enough to hit London from 1/2 way across France,
    and who provided the core of the entire American and Russian space
    programs for 30 years, didn't have an excellent understanding of
    exactly what shape, size, and motion the earth has.
    
    Hitler may have been crazy, but somehow I don't think Werner Von
    Braun was.
    
    /Bevin

    Re .10, .11:
    
    Coupla points here:  Whether you believe (erroneously) that the
    earth is a hollow thing with a diameter of 7900+ miles, or you believe
    it's a globe of the same diameter, this wouldn't prevent the launching
    of a rocket (although von Braun knew better, as it happens).
    
    "The Nazis" actually refers to "the prevailing belief among leaders
    of the German National Socalist movement" rather than "the German
    people," however.
    
    The official line on heredity in Russia for many years was Lysenkoism;
    it was the "Russian Communist" position.  Does this mean that every
    practicing geneticist in the Soviet Union believed it?  Not hardly.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    	Wernher Von Braun and Company were bright, competent individuals
    who wanted to use their rockets to explore space, not bomb cities.
    The much more powerful Nazis, however, had different plans - and
    they didn't put up with their demands being refused very well. 
    
    	Von Braun et. al. also knew how Earth and the Universe were
    really "set up" (in 1940's knowledge, which at least knew which
    side of Earth we humans lived on).  Any such nonsense as Earth being
    hollow came from a number of those psychotic Nazi officials.
    
    	BTW - for those of us who most likely will not be able to get
    the books mentioned in this note, could you pleae tell us some of
    what else in the occult the Nazis planned to use to gain world
    domination, and how they planned on using these "devices"?
    
    	Larry
    

    RE: .9
    
       You state a number of times that the swastika was a symbol used
    by the ancient Hebrews.  I have never heard this before.  What is
    your source of information?
    

RE: .9,.14

    I owe the DEJAVU'ers an apology. 

    Generally I qualify any statement I make (e.g., "I have heard") which
    I am not pretty sure I can immediately cite a source on. 

    Years ago, I had heard that the Nazis had taken the swastika from a
    minor Hebrew mystic or decorative symbol.  I'm not sure where I read
    this, but I had it classified in my mind as (1) from a reliable source,
    and (2) from multiple, seemingly independent sources.  Later I saw the
    swastika as part of a decorative motif in an early (1st or 2nd century
    CE (the Common Era; known to Christians as AD)) piece of Jewish art and
    that seemed to confirm it.  Still later I saw it as part of the
    decorative tile-work in a modern (but pre-Hitler) Jewish building, and
    this fit in. 

    I spent some time this weekend looking everywhere I could think of for
    *some* confirmation of this.  I was unable to find it and found a fair
    amount that hinted pretty strongly that it was incorrect.  I now
    suspect strongly that I was completely mistaken.  The appearance in the
    early mural is probably idiosyncratic, with the symbol picked up from
    Helenistic or Mesopotamian sources.  (I don't know for sure that
    it was used in post-classical Greek art, but its use in Byzantine art
    is suggestive of that). The modern tile-work was probably an imitation
    of a Byzantine pattern. 

    I'm going to delete .9, so no one reads it and accepts it as truth
    without reading this note.  I will, of course leave this note. 

    As penance, I'm going to type in the Brittanica ("Micropedia) entry.
    For this type of thing the Brittanica is fairly reliable, and it seems
    to summarize pretty well what I picked up in my other reading. 

			Topher

    *swastika* (Sanskrit 'svastika', "conducive to well-being," derived
    from 'su', "well"; 'asti', "it is"), an equilateral cross with arms
    bent at right angles, all in the same rotary direction, usually
    clockwise.  The swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good fortune is
    widely distributed throughout the ancient and modern world.  It was a
    favourite symbol on ancient Mesopotamian coinage; it appeared in early
    Christian and Byzantine art (where it became known as the gammadion
    cross because its arms resemble the Greek letter gamma); and it
    occurred in South and Central America (among the Mayas) and in North
    America (principally among the Navajos).  In India it continues to be
    the most widely used auspicious symbol of Hindus, Jainas, and
    Buddhists. Among the Jainas the swastika is the emblem of their seventh
    Tirthan.kara [the "." appears over the "n", TC] (saint) and is also
    said to remind the worshipper by its four arms of the four possible
    places of rebirth -- in the animal or plant world, in hell, on earth, or
    in the spirit world. 

    The Hindus (and also Jainas) use the swastika to mark the opening pages
    of their account books, thresholds, doors, and offerings.  A clear
    distinction is made between the right-hand swastika, which moves in a
    clockwise direction, and the left-hand swastika (more correctly called
    the 'sauvastika'), which moves in a counterclockwise direction.  The
    right-hand swastika is considered a solar symbol and imitates in the
    rotation of its arms the course taken daily by the Sun, which in the
    Northern Hemisphere appears to pass from east, then south, to west (see
    'pradaksina_' [the "_" appears over the "a", TC]).  The left-hand
    swastika more often stands for night, the terrifying goddess Ka_li_,
    and magical practices.  During the Nazi regime in Germany, a black
    swastika became the characteristic emblem of Hitler's party. 

  In the late 1930's, (certainly before 1 Sep 39), in the days when much of
the US press still viewed the Nazis as silly rather than deadly dangerous,
the newly-resuscitated picture news magazine, LIFE, ran a photo of a group
of German tourists saluting a Nazi-style "hakenkreuz" which they had noticed
on a roadside sign while touring the southwestern USA.  The caption explained 
that this was a traditional Indian symbol for "good luck" which the highway 
department in whatever state it was had adopted as a roadside symbol, but some 
boob had painted the signs with the hooks going right instead of left (or else 
the other way around -- I don't remember, either!).

  I do remember noticing the picture and reading the caption even though I was 
just a child of 8 or 9 at the time.  Funny, the things that stick in your mind 
so many years later...

    I gotta' hold of a copy of "Lammas Night".  It's fiction but seems
    fairly interesting.  It is about the occult infighting between the
    Nazis and the Brits.  "Lammas Night" is written by Katherine Kurtz.
    
      Mikie?

    What makes you think it's fiction, Mikie?  Just because it was
    published as fiction?
    
    Elizabeth a-e :^)

Re: .18

	Well, the fact that there was no Prince William at the time was a
bit of a clue.

Mark

    Sorry, Charlie (er, Mark); there was a Prince William.  Check your
    English Royal Family genealogical charts; he did die (presumably) in an
    airplane crash in WWII.  (The "presumably" is contingent upon whether
    he lived through the crash and died soon afterward...) 
    
    And I haven't even read the book in question (yet).
    
    I will point out, however, that Ms. Kurtz is renowned in academic
    circles for her historical researches, and would not write a fiction
    that were not possible (as historical fiction).
    
    Elizabeth a-e 

	After reading the book, I checked the Encyclopaedia Britanica.  Since
I looked under issue of the monarch of the time, I could have missed another
William.  However, the William in the book is supposed to have been the twin 
brother of another prince who died as a child.  According to the encyclopaedia,
this child was not part of a set of twins.  I thought I had also looked for
other Williams in the royal family, but perhaps not.  In any case, his
relationship to the royal family is fictitious.

Mark

  Re: .18, etc.
    
    Well, I'm on Chapter 27 of the book.  It is true that many of the
    events depicted have been fictionalized, as well as some of, but not
    nearly all of, the names.  And I did hear from another person I
    consider an historical source, and he said that one "William of
    Windsor", a direct member of the royal family, did indeed die in a
    plane crash as it headed toward Wales.  While this William probably did
    not have a twin brother who died of epilepsy at 14, this does not
    preclude the fictionalization of this matter to take the reader's eyes
    off of the *real* William. 
    
    I'd love to have more details, but I still don't.  So I'll just
    point the way, and the rest of you can do the research.
    
    Elizabeth a-e             

    	In the March issue of Penthous Magazine (I was just reading
    it for the articles), a German scientist claims that the Nazis built
    a time machine during World War II, and that Hitler, his wife, and
    a whole army of Nazis disappeared into another time, to return to
    conquer the world in the year 2145.
    
    	I think I'll go back to reading my articles....
    
    	Larry
    

    Re: 260.23
    
    I read an excellent FICTION book by James Hogan called "The Proteus
    (sp?) Operation".  It was about a group in the future who designed
    a time machine.  They intended to set up their own little empire
    in the past and trained the Nazis to do it.  There is a lot of adventuring
    that covered three alternate time paths (No Nazis, Nazis win WWII
    and "ours"), It's interesting that the time described in the book
    is around 2145.  Maybe this is where the Scientist got his "research"
    done.

    
    
    Hi Paul,
    
    Interesting article.  It sounds like the NAM could be made the
    scapegoat if "Nazi"-like power emerges on a large scale.  IMO, that
    would be just as irresponsible as people in general not owning their
    own darkness.  Nazism, Fascism, etc. are reflections of all of our
    unowned, unexpressed, denied darkness.  Because we, over much time,
    have denied our own feelings and not allowed them expression, an
    enormous emotional charge has been built up.  We can see it emerge
    in our world through many different channels.
    
    To blame any re-emergence of this type of energy on any one group
    is just adding more denial and more emotional charge to an already
    overloaded situation.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
    Carole

    Several years ago Paul Harvey's The Rest of The Story broadcast
    told a story about how Hitler heard a voice telling him to move
    during WW1. He moved over and escaped being killed by a shell. From
    time to time the "voice gave him info that enabled him to survive
    and rise to power. I don't know how reliable this story is but it
    seems plausible. Perhaps negative occult forces are behind other
    tyrants. I remember reading a story once about Cromwell making a
    deal with the "devil".... probably from an Irishman. Seriously,
    men like Saddam Hussein might be extremely difficult to dislodge
    using force because the entities attracted to such an effort might
    also be the ones protecting the tyrant. 
    
    john 

Note 260.28                 
ARCANA::CONNELLY 

Actually, all of these "collection of beliefs and practices that go
under the "new age" banner" can also be classified as Christian.

So, I guess one would have to say too that Christianity has under-
currents of belief that are similar to those held by the proto-Nazi occultists:

>	1.  difficulty grappling with the "problem of Evil" (hence a
>		need to "blame the victim", or find demonic agents, etc.)

Much of what is considered to be New Age is based on Native American Indian
beliefs which does not contain demons or containers of evil but accepts
the negative elements of life as normal and natural.

Christianity itself however, certainly seeks out "demonic agents" as 
containers for evil and often "blames the victim" for sins either real or 
imagined.  Efforts to make abortion illegal seem at times to be as much for
the purpose of punishing the pregnant girl for becoming pregnant as for
concern for the fetus.

>	2.  "Golden Age" mythology/nostalgia (Atlantis, etc.)

Isn't the Christian Second Coming a Golden Age mythology/nostalgia?

>	3.  millennarian (end-of-the-world/"final victory") prophecies

Doesn't this relate to the Christian Apocalypse?

>	4.  authoritarian tendencies (too many people are looking for
>		salvation/enlightenment from gurus, ascended masters, etc.)

It occurrs to me that this too pertains more to Christianity.   Certainly
Christians seek salvation/enlightenment from an ascended master and who
could be more "authoritarian" than the Christian Pope and religious leaders?

Every point this author has made concerning the NA movement can also be
interpreted equally as well to Christianity itself.
    
>But Berman does see the threat as being more likely to be cloaked in the guise
>of a movement that appeals to the "spiritual" side of us.
    
    Have you considered paul, that the threat cloaked in the guise of a
    movement that appeals to the "spiritual" side of us might be
    Christianity itself?  Consider history... more persecution,
    harrasement, and genocide has been committed in the name of
    Christianity than anything else.  Where then lies the true danger?
    
    Mary Stanley

Note 260.30                 
ARCANA::CONNELLY 

>Sure, i think the evangelical Christian movement could just as easily give
>birth to the next version of Nazism as the New Age movement.  What Berman is
>pointing out is the underlying belief systems that tend to scramble our
>attempts to manifest spiritual energy, which tend to show up in all manner of
>heretical or "fringe" movements.

Paul,  heretical means an opinion or doctrine that differs from or is at 
variance with established religious beliefs.  A fringe movement is one that 
exists on the outskirts of established institutional belief.  You are saying
that Berman is pointing out that our underlying belief systems (which are
our current established systems) scramble our "attempts to manifest spiritual
energy" which shows up as something different than our traditional systems.

I don't see the problem with that.  It seems natural to me.  Surpress a natural
part of human nature and it will emerge in an unexpected manner or in a new
way.

    Paul, what do you understand by the words, "manifesting spiritual
    energy"?  How was this traditionally done?  How could it be done?
    How will humans do it in the future?
    
>His central thesis is that we have totally lost touch with our bodies, by
>overemphasizing the visual (and, i guess, to a lesser extent auditory) senses
>over what he calls the "kinesthetic" senses (touch, smell, taste, sensations
>of inner body state that are sometimes called "proprioception", etc.).  This
>has led to an anxiety-ridden Self-Other boundary problem, leading to all kinds
>of disembodiment spirituality.  The heresies are (collective) unconscious
>attempts to get back in touch with the missing body but they are misled and
>eventually defeated by the disembodiment spirituality metaphor that we saddle
>ourselves with.  That's my short summary of his thesis, anyway.;-)  The book
>is worth reading, even if you don't agree with everything he says.

Am I correct in the assumption that the "disembodiment spirituality metaphor"
that we saddle ourselves with is traditional Christian doctrine?
If so... I think I might agree.  The new is frequently misled by the old,
new ideas waylaid by power concerns of the traditional....  not stopped of 
course, just detoured for awhile. :-)

Mary

    Could a new Hitler arise out of christianity? Considering how
    politicized evangelicals are becoming, its a definite possiblility.
    The genius of hitler's movement was his picking of a scapegoat in
    the Jews. By having a focus for the frustrations of the German peoples,
    he could unify them. Actually, any successful political organization
    is organized around an enemy, whether the enemy is a  Jew, Republican,
    Abortionist, or New Ager. To me, that is one of the fundamental
    reasons why true spiritual movements don't become involved in politics.
    
    Recently, I read part of a book titled, Hitler's War(David Irving
    author). Its researched from Hitler's point of view, ie through
    his personal papers . While it by no means rehabilitates Hitler, it
    does show how complex he was.
    Much of our view of him was colored by anti German propaganda. For
    example, he refused to use chemical weapons against the Allies,
    even though his scientists had developed nerve agents that might
    have won the war for him. His own memos etc seem to stop short of
    the commanding a holacaust. His vagueness gave license to others who
    built the death camps. His lack of a Jewish policy as much as any
    thing led to their destruction. The Germans  had a long standing
    tradition of ruthlessness toward civilian opposition during war.
    During WW1 it was their policy to shoot ten leading citizens if
    a soldier was shot and escalate the violence if it happened again.
    The point I'm trying to make is that depending on the point of view,
    even the worst tyrants can appear quite banal. Any time political
    expediency replaces morality as a basis for action the results will
    to greater or lesser degree result in a Hitler. 

    
    Use of gas by Hitler: He was too busy using it on the Jews! 
    
    GOD is used in many situations HE would not be happy with. We use HIM
    to support our military efforts,the Iraqies use HIM for their War
    effort,the Iranians use HIM for theirs,ECT,ETC.......
    
    I am glad that our president recognizes the need to work for a World
    society,and,using the United Nations as a start. Its a beginning,but,
    ultimately ALL boundries will have to fade,if,Man is to survive.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    > Any time political expediency replaces morality as a 
    > basis for action the results will to greater or lesser 
    > degree result in a Hitler.
    
    How true John.  
    
    Thanks.  The book you mentioned sounds interesting.
    
    Karen     

    No replies in here for years, but if anyone is interested on reading
    two super books.....
    
    'Lightning' by Dean R. Koontz
    
    Nazis build a time machine to go into the future to bring back weapons
    in order to turn the tide of the war.
    
    'The Spear' by James Herbert
    
    The famed Heilige Lance is found and used to bring Hitler and Goebbells
    back to life to rule again!
    
    Happy reading
    
    Ian