Conference hydra::dejavu

    Re .0 (Lorenzo):
    
    Can you make out what these voices are saying?  Also, are the beast
    faces "wholesome" beasts like those associated with the wheels of
    Ezekiel (Ezekiel 1:5-10), or are they of a more suspicious nature?
    
    I've never experienced anything quite like what you've described,
    but if you can give more details, maybe we can pin this down.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

	I think this experience may be very common.   We all hear
    or subvocalize in our minds, and we all have images in our minds.
    But usually we get to feel like our thoughts are our own.
    Sometimes the real self is separate from the sounds and images
    in the mind, and then the thoughts seem to have life of their own.
    
    	According to many traditions, the mind is a microcosmic reflection
    of the macrocosm.   As I see it, the ego (self image) is not a
    single item, but is made up of a collection of all the images we
    indentify with.   Thus the ego might be like a colletion of roles,
    like; Innocent child, student, rebellious kid, young romantic...
    one role for each image a person has identified with in their life.
    Also the mind will contain images of repressed or rejected roles
    that get projected on other people.   It is very normal for the
    mind to have this multiplicity.   We take in these images over the
    years, and our personalities are defined by what we feel strongly
    about (love or hate).   A person defines themself by saying "I am 
    like this image/role" or "I am not like this image/role".

        Imagine that your mind has a whole tribe of personality images
    in it.  Everyone you meet can be categorized as one or a few of
    these typical types.   I was taught that these roles are like
    the windows of the mind; suppose there is a window called
    student-teacher.   When a person sees another as a teacher, he
    sees the teacher through what was learned about the role from other
    teachers.   It is as if there is a painting on the window that
    gets projected on the other real person.   In dreams or fantasy,
    a person can get to know their own archetypal projections.
    
    	I think it's normal to experience the multiplicity of the
    microcosm like this.    It might show you are learning how to disidentify
    your real self from all the ego images, if you can observe
    your thoughts detached like this.   The real self is not graspable,
    so you can only observe one part of yourself at a time.
    
    	Alan.

    RE:  .0
    
    Lorenzo,
    
    I know exactly what you mean about hearing voices.  When I was a
    little kid and I was put to bed before I was tired, I would play
    a game with the voices until I fell asleep.  I would try to start
    a conversation with the voices.  I'd mentally throw out an opening
    question like "What did you do last weekend".  Then I would listen
    very intently for an answer.  The answer would always come in loud
    and clear.  I usually didn't have to wait more than a few seconds
    or so.  At times when the voices were particularly loud (I observed
    as a kid that the voices were loudest and most responsive when I
    was really boared and really wanted the voices to play with) I
    sometimes could start a group singalong with the voices.  I would
    start a singalong of, say, Jinglebells.  I can remember I would
    sometimes get startled because I would start a singalong and then
    try to change to another song after a while, but the voices wouldn't
    want to.  They would just very stubornly continue to sing the song
    I started with.  The more I tried to change the song, the louder
    and louder the "choris" of voices would sing the old song.  In fact
    I sort of remember as a child believing that I could "create" the
    actual sound of a choris just by starting one of these singalongs.
    I assumed that everybody else could hear what I could.  I continued
    this game for years and years.  I'm sure I could do it even today.
    I'll try it tonight.
    
    You know, I never thought of it that way, but I'll bet that was
    sort of channelling. 
    
    Marion                                                  

	I had an arguement with a friend.   We were both trying to
become famous musicians at the time, and we argued over how to
best succeed at this.   He would say to me;  "You have to *take*
fame, blow your own horn, and tell people you're great."   Then
I would reply;  "Fame will only satisfy you if it's given to you
freely.  You have to give what you can and accept only what is
given to you freely.   What you take by force will control you
or destroy you..."    The arguement went on in this vien for many
hours, until I grew tired and left to walk home.

	On the way home the arguement kept churning in my mind.
I would think; "I should have said ...." then could clearly hear
in my mind how my friend would have replied had he been there.
Suddenly it occured to me that the whole arguement was in my own
head.   I was still arguing in my mind, even when there was no
one there to talk to and project the other part of the arguement
on.    As I realized this, I knew it was not "me and him" arguing,
but "me and me".   As I became detached from the inner arguement,
I began calling the archetypal roles represented as "the giver" and
"the taker".    They seemed to symbolize the Christ and the Devil
in myself.    I was not totally pure, and my friend evil, these
were just the conversational roles we were in at that moment.
Although I had "identified" with the more Christlike role in the
arguement, I later had to admit to myself that the Devilish role
was also well represented in my own psyche, since the *entire* arguement
went on in my head when I was alone.

	This inner arguement went on for several hours, and I
was beginning to wonder how I could stop it.   It just seemed
to go on of it's own accord.   Then while I was fixing dinner,
alone in my apartment, still listening to the verbal parrying
between "the giver" and "the taker" within me, something happened
which stopped the inner arguement.   I heard a woman's voice
break into the arguement, saying, "If you want to be the giver,
you can't be the taker.   If you become the taker, the taker in you
will kill the giver in you.   But if you become the giver, the
giver in you will allow the taker to live."    The simplicity and
wisdom of this stopped me cold.   The inner arguement ended.
Then I was left wondering;  where did the woman's voice come from?

	In the final analysis I can't really say I *know* where
this third "voice" came from.   Perhaps from my guardian angel
(or "guide", as some here would say), or perhaps from a deeper
part of my own psyche.   I think Jung would have called this
female spritual voice my "anima", the female archetype of my mind.

	Alan.

    
    Alan,
    
    Perhaps the feminine voice you heard was the Holy Spirit.  It is
    written in many places that the Holy Spirit is a feminine energy
    and is the source of divine Wisdom.  
    
    From what I have read, it appears that your inner conversation was
    indeed between yourself (yourselves??) - or rather the light and the 
    darkness/Shadow that (Jung believes) we all have within us.  Kind 
    of brings new meaning to the terms 'devil's advocate' and 'moral
    dilemma'.  
                                                      
    Just my thoughts.
    
    Cindy

    Another view is one presented by Jane Roberts in _Psychic_Politics_. In
    this view the human psyche is made up of different individuals,
    segments or personalities. Perhaps some from childhood, some from
    puberty, some from college, some from adult life or even past lives.
    All these segments get molded or formed into a single coheisive unit we
    call "me". 
    
    For various reasons we can reassign the parts of the quorum (sp?).
    Some would say we can imbalance that balance. Through self discpline
    or chemical imbalance we can effectively restructure our personality
    to allow other quorums to form within the psyche. In effect our
    psyches become another psyche for a period of time until the original
    quorum regains control.
    
    These voices, I think, take place in the grey area between two or more
    different quorums. 
              
    Basicly the only voices I hear are ones that shout my name in an
    attempt to attract my attention. Once I look for the source of the
    shout the quorum has rearrainged and the voices are lost. Jung had some
    interesting things to say about this type of experience but I'm not
    familiar enough to write of it. 

   I frequently carry on technical troubleshooting or planning for major
   projects via internal vocalization, but I don't seem to be able or 
   need to control it.  I seem to have a facility to memorize things
   I do not understand, process information subconsciously, then arrive
   at an ananlysis without really being able to know how I got there.

   The voices fade in and out of my awareness, and sometimes one of them
   will take over answering a really tough question.  I've had people
   comment on an explanation I delivered in front of a group, then
   I have to ask them what I said.  They think I'm kidding.  
   Maybe it's some kind of right/left brain communication.
   It sure is more fun than a boring technical analysis.

   At the risk of being redundent, I'd like to re-enter here something
   I wrote down, but do not feel as if I authored, I don't write poetry.
   Maybe it's a jumble of things I read & half remember, I heard it, line
   by line in my head over several weeks.


        WELTANSCHUNG
  
   The Trinity of divinity
   Is a fractal of infinity,
   The solitude of our seclusion
   But a fragment of delusion.

   Trapped in corporeal illusion
   Playing with the torch of fusion
   We fight and love and laugh and cry
   And strive to look beyond the sky,

   To nuclear-fired stars ablaze,
   Massed in clouds of stellar haze
   Warm rocky islets in the void
   And seeds of forms 'most humanoid.

   Vessels of life to procreate,
   More of the inanimate
   In living tissue, spirit-lined
   To house the universal mind.

   Each creeping bit of protoplasm
   Searches in its' operant spasm
   To touch itself across the chasm
   Communication is life's orgasm.

   So these realities it seems,
   Insinuate into our dreams
   To fill our memories with reams
   Of vague and misty elsewhere scenes.

   But all that ws is ever there
   And power enough for us to share
   If we but see our own reflection
   In each other's recollection

   Of time there was when space was one
   And space burst forth for time to run.
   The Holy process had begun
   To fashion Father, Ghost and Son.

			MWR?

    re .7
    
    For someone who "doesn't write poetry",
    I think you did a great job!  ;-)
    
    		-Amy.
    

    
    What I have read thus far, has been really a great help; and I want
    to say: Thanks!
    
    RE:0
     I can, but I won't allow myself to understand whats being said,
    I usually just block it out of my mind. The faces are not as the
    faces that Ezekeal (spelled wrong) seen in his vision: These are
    what you would call faces of a suspicious nature: Does this help?
    
    
    LORENZO
    

    Re .9 (Lorenzo):
    
    It certainly does. And you are doing excactly the right thing by
    blocking them out.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    This happens to me too Lorenzo.  Its nothing to be afraid of though.
    I think that some of us are sometimes able to tap into the Myoho
    and we hear and see fragments of life.  I've even been shaken out of
    a sound sleep by a voice yelling my name when I've been alone in
    the house.  Life is not restricted to that which dwells in our bodies
    or grows upon our earth.  Life Stuff swirls around us all the time,
    its just that we don't usually see or hear it.  I think the chaotic
    Life Stuff is what is patterned into the living things in our world.
    We notice the animal and human elements because they are less subtle
    than the others.

    
    Lorenzo,
    
     I would agree with Steve. You would do well to avoid any communication
    with these beings. Rather, I suggest putting your personal_name to use.
    Why should you have to put up with these beasties if you don't want
    to ?
    
    Gil

    	I used to live in a beautiful attic of an old Victorian house.
    	The house had a strangely negative energy throughout most of
    	it, with the exception of the third floor where I lived for 3
    	years.  One night I was laying in bed, trying to get to sleep, 
    	when I heard the sound of bells tinkling in the distance.  I 
    	lived near several cathedrals so I didn't think much of it, but 
    	after a few minutes of this I sat up, and the bells were quiet.  
    	I layed back down, closed my eyes, and the bells started softly 
    	tinkling again.  It was very peaceful, but whenever I would sit 
    	up or open my eyes they would stop.
    
    	I was quietly listening to these beautiful sounds, when I heard 
    	someone whisper softly but surely in my ear, "Carla."  I bolted
    	up fully expecting to see someone standing next to my bed (a
    	very panicky moment!!!) but of course nobody was there.
   	
    	It happened again later that night and I've never really known
    	what happened, but the voice was female and because the attic
    	was also used as servant's quarters way back when, I've always
    	wondered if it was someone who lived there at one time.  It
    	was a good energy and I welcomed her presence, but she never
    	appeared in such a way again.
    
    						Carla
    

    Samuel Beckett wrote a very short but unsettling novel called
    _Company_. 
    
    It deals simply with a person lying on his back in the night, listening
    to various voices, perhaps components of the self, yet Beckett's
    questioning is worth thinking about.
    
    I don't have the book here and my memory of the exact wording is
    not good, but it goes something like:
    
    			*	*	*
    
    You're lying on your back in the dark, thinking. What is the voice
    that says, You're lying on your back in the dark? 
    
    			*	*	*
    
    This book seems to be about the various voices that come to us.
    How accurate are their reports of our past? Did things happen the
    way it seemed? 
    
    Beckett recounts a story told to him in his childhood
    about a Joe Breen or Breem, son of a lighthouse keeper, who went
    out in a storm with a knife between his teeth, on some kind of
    adventure, it all ended happily, he reports. 
    
    Some voices tell us stories (of the past, maybe our childhood), others
    admonish us for some mistake we may have made, yet others seem to
    say ``despite the mistakes you made, all will be well.'' 
    
    In quiet moments alone, the various voices of our personality emerge.
    Around other people, the voices are almost silent. 
    
    So it seems...
    
    
    WW
                  

I hope you didn't misunderstand me Gil.  I suggested Lorenze *not fear* them, I
didn't suggest he communicate with them.  If they are what I believe them to
be, they are fragments, mistakes, random energies, memories.  They aren't
"beings" per se and only the most powerful and most motivated of energies would
even attempt to communicate with us.  Its more like the voices you hear 
sometimes on the telephone line, random pieces of other people's conversations,
of other people's lives, of lives that once were and of lives that never came
to be.  

I too hear the voices, loud and clear; also see the images and faces--
    it's hard to describe really; the voices are present and loud enough
    to wake me out of a deep sleep, when I awake I'm fully alert and
    wondering what the voice said.  I have never been able to hear a
    clear message but more like a clear, random word.  The images or
    visions swirl almost in a pleasant like way--although at times these
    'faces' are very definitely 'beastly' and horrible to view.  At
    first these happenings frightened me; now when they happen, I'm
    merely annoyed and usually go right back to sleep, or it they continue,
    I get up and clear my head.  I think, for me, they occur when I'm
    fighting an internal battle of some sort; a personal, deeply rooted
    problem that leads to my feeling always slightly at odds with myself
    and the world.  The everyday problems like work deadlines, etc.
    don't create the happenings--I may be tense but not troubled to
    the degree that the voices/faces emerge.  So I use the voices/faces
    as a sign that I've got some inner work to do--clear up some old
    problem once and for all.  I too think it's common to hear/see like
    this--the inner voice is talking to us it seems when we are least
    resistant to it.
    
    
    

>    although at times these 'faces' are very definitely 'beastly' and
>    horrible to view.

  This must run in the Buehler blood.  I never hear voices, but several times
I've had the distinct feeling that something was rushing up to my bed at great
speed. That something is not necessarily a bad something but the image that I
have of it is a rather gaunt person of indeterminate sex with black and grey
flowing hair, wearing dark and flowing clothes.  Not the sort of person you'd
like to meet in a dark alley.

  The feeling I've always gotten as to this something's mindset is that I
had better watch what I'm doing because others are.  This feeling was rather
strong at one apartment I lived in, and since I have moved (only a distance
of a mile or so), the something has only been felt once and it was rather
weak.  Kinda funky that it correlates like that.

  I can't tie the occurances to anything specific in my life, nor is the
face familiar in any way.

John

    
    
    I do not see faces or anything quite that complex.  What I _do_
    see is sort of a laser light show composed of vividly colored lines
    and patterns: doted lines, dashed lines, dotted/dished lines,
    and swirly lines like tornados of varying sizes and shapes.  These
    patterns zig-zag their way across my field of vision.  Sometimes
    these figures are obscured by yellowish green clouds that wash my
    field of vision like waves.  When I was a youngster, I noted that
    totally new patterns would surface when I was particularly upset.
    These new patterns were then permanently present as one of the normal
    patterns to be seen.  All of this is very sharp and clear with colors
    that seem to be neon.  When I was a kid I would spend many an hour
    watching the lights and waiting for the sand man.
    
    Marion

RE: .18
    
    What you are describing are called something like "phosphenes",
    and are created by nerve firings in the retina.  There was an article
    some years back in Scientific American about them.  That's about
    all I can remember now.
    
    					Topher

    > You mean that what they _sound like_, right?:-)
    
    Technically I suppose so, but since the description was pretty close
    to 100% of what I experience and I took the article as describing
    pretty precisely the same thing, the probability is *very* high.
    
    By the way, to experience another kind of phosphene close your eyes
    for a few seconds.  Then press gently but firmly on the outer corner
    of your eyeball through the lid while "looking" straight ahead.
    You will see a very faint, roughly circular, ring of light on the
    opposite side of your field of vision.  What is going on is that
    your are directly manually stimulating the nerves in the retina.
    It switches sides because the lens projects onto the retina upside
    down and so the right side of the retina gets light coming from
    objects on the left and vice versa.
    
    If you can't see this effect then you've probably simply gotten
    too good at ignoring the useless "noise" from inside your eye,
    or you have zero peripheral vision.
    
    					Topher

    I AM DIFFERENT..
    
    Born Sep 20, 1940 about age 3-4 I went out to play with a used
    car tire (toys were not plentiful during the war years even in
    the U.S.) and I was struck by lightening.. paralyzed for 3 days
    and then able to speak and walk again.
    
    While visiting my ex-wife in Brooklyn a few years ago, I was watching
    our children.. they were on the floor watching television.. a horror
    movie that they wanted to see, I fell asleep on the sofa, When I
    awoke I opened my eyes and saw an 'OLD WHITE HAIRED WOMAN IN A ROCKING
    CHAIR' rocking and watching over my children.  When I blinked to
    see better, there was no one there and there was never a rocking
    chair.
    
    My explaination.. I never saw my father's mother, I imagine 
    that she was watching over my children while I slept.
    I think what woke me was the creek of the rocker or the 
    lullaby that she was softly singing.
    
    Any other Guardian Angels caught in the act.
    
    Dave R.
    
    p.s. my grandmother died in 1937 and I never seen a photo
         of her until 1980, no resemblance that I can state for
         sure.  My mother did not get along with her mother-in-law
         was the reason for no photos.

re .10:
    
>    It certainly does. And you are doing excactly the right thing by
>    blocking them out.
    
Hmm - I'm actually a little surprised at your answer, Steve.  It seems
to me that the "right" thing to do is very much dependent on ones
personality, belief system, etc, and on how the particular instance is 
interpreted.  

If we were to adopt a purely psychological approach to an instance of
voices/images and interpret it as an unintegrated personality fragment - 
then "blocking them out" might not be the thing to do at all (depending
on brand of psychology; state of personality, etc).

(Disclaimer:  this is not a diagnosis of any notes file participant, living
or dead ...)

Even if we eschew (whew) psychology entirely, there are cultural approaches
that recommend confrontation with the "demon" - EG, the Senoi of Malaysia
who teach their children to confront the monsters of their dreams ...


						Gene
    

    Re .23 (Gene):
    
>Hmm - I'm actually a little surprised at your answer, Steve.  It seems
>to me that the "right" thing to do is very much dependent on ones
>personality, belief system, etc, and on how the particular instance is 
>interpreted.  
 
    Well, look at Lorenzo's answer in .9:
    
    >I can, but I won't allow myself to understand whats being said,
    >I usually just block it out of my mind. The faces are not as the
    >faces that Ezekeal (spelled wrong) seen in his vision: These are
    >what you would call faces of a suspicious nature: Does this help?
     
    In light of that reply (which I respect), my response, that he was
    doing exactly the right thing, is clearly in consonance with Lorenzo's
    personality and belief system.  If the faces he sees are of a
    "suspicious nature," it makes perfect sense for him to block them
    out.
    
    There's a joke saying in some circles: "Never invoke anything you
    can't banish."  Actually, it's not a bad rule of thumb.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.  

    
    Another suggestion - Jung and other psychoanalysts have done much
    in the field of dream analysis.  Not sure if this is *quite* the
    area to start with, but it might help.  Some recommended books (though
    perhaps Mikie? could help out here) - by Carl Jung - "The Unexplored
    Self", "Dreams", "Modern Man In Search Of His Soul".  
    
    If it were me in the same spot as Lorenzo is, I'd try to confront or
    at least try to understand what is going on because doing this has
    helped me to get over fear and anxiety by recognizing things for
    what they truly are and then 'banishing' them along with the fear.
    Understanding, I believe, is really the key.  This not only applies
    to dreams or internal voices, but to most anything in life.
    
    Oh yes, there is also a pretty good article in a recent National
    Geographic on Sleep.  Only browsed through it quickly, but it looked
    quite interesting and may help here.
    
    Cindy
                                                  

    I very often hear clear, distinct voices just as I drift off to
    sleep (they can say the weirdest things...).  I rather enjoy them.
    
    My advice to Lorenzo: Don't worry about it.  What the hell is
    a *voice* going to do?
    
    John M.

RE: .26
    
    > What the hell is a *voice* going to do?
    
    Ask Hitler; he used very little else to kill millions.
    
    					Topher

    Hitler had help.
    
    
    
    John M.

RE: .28
    
    > Hitler had help.
    
    ...which he got by using his voice (and its stand-in, his pen).
    
    					Topher

    Re: .-1  "Confrontation"
    
    Ah, but when I had some problems with voices in the night during
    a time of great stress, I confronted them.  And didn't "reason"
    with them either.  I said (out loud) "Will the gang of you just
    please shut up?!"  And they did.
    
    BTW, looking something in the face to understand it does not
    automatically mean reaching a compromise with it, reasoning with
    it, cooperating with _or even allowing one's self to be affected
    by it_.  And the despair I have felt at confronting the source of
    any negative emotion has never been as great as the fear of finding
    it out and the effort to ignore or suppress it.
    
    I now try to confront such things before they build into an
    indigestible mass in the basement of my psyche; I have learned through
    trial-by-fire, you might say, that the confrontation will be forced
    on me if I don't undertake it consciously.  And the forcing usually
    occurs because the efforts to ignore or suppress have sucked up
    so much of my energy that I am too exhausted to ignore the truth
    any longer.  Unfortunately, this also usually has meant that I've
    been too weak at times to handle what rises up to confront me, and
    _that_ is when the most debilitating effects of confrontation have
    occurred.

    Marcia

    RE (what can a voice do?)
    
    By itself, nothing.  In the case of Hitler using his to kill millions
    of people, it was not Hitler's voice that killed them - it was those
    who listened to it and obeyed what it said without running it through
    any kind of ordinary ethical system.
    
    Likewise, a voice you hear at night should be viewed with scrutiny.
    If it says "give your unemployed neighbor's children toys for Christmas
    so they will get some", it is probably a good thing.  If it says
    "Kill your lazy neighbor", that is quite another.  If it says total
    nonsense, it is probably your subconscious trying to get a message
    through.  It's up to you to decipher the meaning.
    
    Elizabeth
                                                      

    If it says "kill your neighbor" see your doctor as soon
    as possible... it could be a sign of paranoid schizophrenia._/:-}

    Re .33 (Mary):
    
    ... or it might be a representative of Zero Population Growth. ;-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Didn't Son Of Sam hear voices from his dog?

    RE:  .35 
    
    > Didn't Son Of Sam hear voices from his dog?
    
    Yes, he did, but that wasn't the primary problem.  What _was_ the
    primary problem?  The dog's predisposition to violence! :^)
    
    Marion

    Hearing voices is a typical symptom of schitzaphrenia...and they
    can be imagined to be coming from anywhere (God, your dog, a Communist
    conspiracy, etc.)
    
    Elizabeth

RE: .37
    
    But keep in mind that it may also be due to other factors.  I had
    a friend who, due to simple stress, hadn't slept in several days.
    She went to the 24hr clinic, to get a quick perscription for a
    tranquilier or a sleeping pill.  She got asked a bunch of questions
    and then they tried to commit her "for observation".  Seems that
    a yes answer to any two of the standard questions resulted in a
    diagnosis of "possible schizophrenia: observe for several days".
    One question was: "Has your sleep been disrupted lately?", another
    was "Do you believe that you can on occasion know the thoughts of
    others directly?" (this is one common interpretation of schizophrenics
    of where "the voices" come from).  Well, she had been doing some
    careful, successful parapsychological experiments with her husband...
    Needless to say, the nurse who administered the test only cared
    about the "yes" answer, not whether the response was actually quite
    rational.  Her husband had to threaten legal action to get her out
    of it (needless to say, without the sleep aid she had come for).
    
    My personal interpretation of the voices is that they represent
    leakage from the subconscious.  Occuring during an altered state
    of consciousness (in this case, sleep or intense prayer) it is
    not really a symptom (in my estimation, though I am *not* a
    psychologist) of anything but an altered state of consciousness.
    If the voices start ocuring at other times, I would seek help
    (keep in mind, there is very strong evidence that schizophrenia
    is either a chemical imbalance in the brain, or at least is allowed
    to happen because of a chemical imbalance in the brain).
    
    					Topher

    Son-of-Sam heard voices from his *neighbor's* dog, not his.
    
    There is a difference, you know!  ;-)
    
    
    John M.

re: .37,.38

an interesting book to read about the "voices" experienced
by schizophrenics is "I Never Promised You a Rose Garden", in
which the girl afflicted experiences the voices as a kind of
Greek chorus (referred to as "the Collect", i think)

no idea how "accurate" the book is (and the psychoanalytical
explanations of the phenomena are much less convincing than
the simple _descriptions_ of the phenomena), but it is a very
readable and interesting book

    Don't be afraid Mary.  You WILL know when the time comes_:-)

    Re: .39
    
    Was the neighbors' dog schizophrenic?
    
    
    
    BTW  I just finished reading Asimov's latest "Fantastic Voyage II"
         and he makes extensive use of voices being heard by leading
         scientists.  Schizophrenia is mentioned as well as telephathy.
    
    
    
    ......Bob

    Lorenzo:
    
    In all true honesty, my ouija board, told me that anyone with your
    imagination must have a snuff problem

    Re .44:
    
    Goes to show the problems wuth listening to Ouija boards. :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    	I just ran across a very interesting reference on this from
    the book "The Toxic Cloud", by Michael H Brown, which documents
    the spread of chlorinated hydrocarbons through the atmosphere;
    A Quote from page 22;
    
    	"In humans, dioxin has been blamed for "pins and needles"
    	sensations in the feet, enlargement of the liver (hepatomegaly),
    	and abnormalities in the immune system, which might open a person
    	to any number of infections.   There were also aches in muscles
    	and joints, digestive disorders, nerve changes, and even
    	psychiatric effects -- INCLUDING THE HEARING OF PHANTOM VOICES."
    
    (emphasis mine)
    This makes a lot of sense, to me, since people will hear voices after or
    during extreme stress, such as might be caused by extreme isolation,
    sensory deprivation or hallucinitory drugs.   Chemical stress might
    lower the body's resitance to spiritual or psychological forces.
    	It's interesting to note here that some of the upsurge in channelling
    activities, as well as other things, like forms of "spiritual
    harrassment", might actually be related the the spread of chlorinated
    hydrocarbons throughout our biosphere.
    
    	Alan.

    It was on NPR this week that Ray Bradbury and several other very
    creative writers hear voices; sometimes even the voices of their
    charactors they write about.
    
    A woman said that she waits upon the Muse which voices much of her
    writings. Ray Bradbury said he gets much of his story line in the late
    morning, half awake, in which the story line and charactors become
    alive in his mind. Someone named Goldberg doesn't write anything unless
    he hears the voices, otherwise he is blocked.
    
    I have conversations with my creative self all the time. I think
    everyone does this to some extent. Perhaps the more aware person
    will use this creative dialogue more often.
    
    I've also read that if one wants to get rid of the voices they should
    not pay attention to the voices, making no comment or judgement on the
    content. Soon the voices get bored and go away due to lack of audience.
    
    It would be interesting to find out if the voices were the child
    self or the speaking self. Anyone know?

    	RE .47
    
    	All the selves can speak.  Selves we create over the years,
    and selves that we are taught, or have been imposed on us.
    Archetypal beings like Jesus or Buddha or God can speak to us,
    along with elves and fictional characters from books and virtually
    any other personality imaged by the mind.  All can seem to speak, 
    or actually can *be* speaking.
    
    	Ordinarily, though, the dialogue that goes on in our minds is
    there, with a sense of being directed by conscious purpose.   Other 
    times the natural process is disturbed, and there is a feeling of being
    out of control of the dialogue.   I think that heavy stress can
    trigger this, apparently stress of many different kinds.   It
    seems that some use fasting or prayer or the state between dreams
    and waking to deliberatly access these voices.
    
    	 I heard this NPR broadcast you mentioned, or at least the tail
    end of that segment.   It is interesting that so many writers use
    this natural process for their muse.   I suppose this may mean that
    much fiction may really be channeled material.   Of course one
    could flip that statement around and say that explains why so much
    channeled material seems no better than fiction.   I think there
    are jewels of great value hidden in fantasies and fictions, so
    don't think I'm getting down on channeling here, I'm just noting
    what seems to me to be a similarity.
    
    	Alan.