Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    Two of my cousins are witches (wikka to be precise) and I have to say
    that they have much the same opinion of Demon worship as most
    'orthadox' faiths do. The sad thing is that they get abusive letters
    and stuff from the local churches for being Satanists (which is after
    all the dark side of Christianity and Judaism). To my knowledge the
    dark side of pagan witchcraft is almost unknown and was considerably
    less dangerous in terms of belief and ceremony than Satanism.
    
    			Adam

     
    
      I know that witchcraft and demon worship are diametrically opposed.
      My question stems from meeting some new neighbors and having 'demon
      worship" comming to mind after every visit. THe thought lingers with
      me so much and is so foreign to my everyday existance that i have
      to question whether or not they fall into or close to this category.
      When i test the waters and bring up religion the woman almost 
      recoils and just the word witch or witches has come up (a nick name
      my husband has for me because of my interest and abilities in the
      healing arts) ...anyway, when that word comes up it is as tho it
      drops into a vast caveren...as tho it was never used.  
    
      There stems my question...I know there is something surrounding these
      folks and will not associate with them if it turns out to be demon
      worship...regardless of how nice they are.  On the other had I
      don't want to create monsters where they don't exist..
    
                               thoughts anyone?

    >When i test the waters and bring up religion the woman almost recoils

    Roughly my reaction too. But I do not worship the devil, or blieve in
    witches for that matter. (That last statement does not include my
    "mother-in-law".)  

    Jamie.

    
    I see Jamie's point regarding mentioning religion. It can make some
    people very wary and instantly distance themselves. I think the effect
    of the Jehovah's witnesses and their like has been to make people
    instantly distant whenever the subject is brought up with people they
    don't know.
    
    As regards witches and demonologists being diametrically opposed, I
    would think it more accurate to say they aren't even on the same
    circle, but any relatively 'normal' person would be against the idea of
    worshiping something as intrinsically evil as that. There can be no
    good come of it, by definition, only personal gain at someone else's
    expense, and I suspect a pretty high personal price to pay too.
    
    Jamie, you cannot say that you don't believe in witches. They exist,
    although you might doubt their abilities. I take it you do believe in
    the Devil then?
    
    Adam.

    
    This ought to be fun...>B^> 0(;^)
    
    Cindy

    
    	Zip!, Zang! Pffftttt! Got all my work caught up, let's see, gotta
    nice seat cushion for the tush, plenty of ice water, some fresh
    veggie nibbles, trusty World Almanac to keep everyone honest on facts,
    King James Bible....
    
    		Yep, I'm ready to watch.....
    
    					   Let The Games Begin!
    BillM
    

    
    a little provacative you think ?
    
    Adam (Devil's Advocate)

    This is a subject that both repels and interests me.  Strange
    combination huh?  Especially for a woman brought up in the Protestant
    religion with both a father and brother in the ministry.  I know we all
    have a certain amount of power or physic ability and I have always felt
    mine but not known how to tap into and am deathly repelled by the
    demonism you are referring to.  Witches are another thing.  I am
    interested in anything I see about them and even loved reading
    childrens books about witches to my children in the past.  Of course,
    these books refer sometimes to the evil side of witches.  How do we
    know if we are/were one or that the gifts that they have come from God? 
    What books are the best source for this knowledge?  I do have contact
    from time to time with my local church and cannot believe that this
    subject is something that churches would condone.  I do believe in
    Jesus and that he was our savior.  Can these beliefs of mine be
    combined or is this impossible.  I am asking those of you who have
    knowledge about both religion and other powers to clear up some of
    these questions for me.  Thanks in advance.
    
    Pat

    
    Pat,
    
    Depends upon your perspective.  I see no problem combining them, but
    then I'm a Unitarian Universalist.  (;^)  Fundamentalist Christians 
    on the other hand, would have a major problem with combining them.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,  my perspective has always been to keep an open mind, incase I
    should miss something important ;^)  I can't quote exactly where, but
    even in the bible it mentions visions and sightings and various psyhic
    happenings.  
    
    Going back to witches, I have always believed in the great power of
    women and that we all have some of the "old hag" or witch in us as well
    as the child, the young maiden and the experience matron.
    
    Pat

    
    	Hold on here, with that "old hag" stereotyping. That comes from the
    Cristian churches' demonizing of "witchcraft" during the Middle Ages on
    to today's muddying of Wicca with attempts to link it to Satanism,etc.
    	Witches, Wicca, can be old, young, plain or gorgeous. Wicca, goes
    back to the Earth based religions of prehistoric Europe. It's based on
    the worship of the Earth Mother concept of the world versus our space
    concept of faith that emerged from Sun worship to now mean the belief
    in a universal omniscent God/spirit/presence/force. The Church was
    trying to stamp out the old religion and persecute and kill off its
    main practitioners of it: witches.  Many times these were simply
    agriculturally based women who had followed long handed down rites,
    potents, medical herbal cures, etc. for generations.
    	As male doctors began to practice they added into the fray to
    squeeze out this female competition. The Church having a Doctor of
    Science testify at a witchtrial that he found the women possessed
    of evil spirits was like the fox urging the farmer to let loose
    all his chickens because they were diseased!
    	In Europe, it is no mistake that many many churches are built
    upon the rubble of old religion points of interest: ley lines,
    watchtower hilltops, magic glens. Xmas is tangled up with the
    old winter solstice (sp)?. Even Halloween was incorporated into
    the church's calender as a minor holiday. It, and Mayday, probably
    are the greatest of the old Earth religion's survivors.
    	The Pilgrims led by Myles Standish marched on Merrymount, now
    a part of Quincy, Mass., and dispersed its rowdy, non-Calvinist
    residents early in the 1600's, burning their Maypole to the ground!
    BillM

    Re .4

    >Jamie, you cannot say that you don't believe in witches.

    People can take any title they like, however that does not
    automatically make me believe that they are any different from anyone
    else. Therefore it is possible for me not to believe in witches.

    >I take it you do believe in the Devil then?

    No, not really. The Devil is a convenient hook on which to hang the
    blame for the evil things mankind does. 

    Jamie.

    I wish I had logged in earlier now.
    
    Witchcraft v church - there should be no conflict in theory, although
    as has been pointed out already, established 'Christian' beleiefs may
    have something to say about it. Interestingly enough, those in the
    church who are most against pagan witchcraft obviously believe that
    there is something in it all, else why are they bothered?
    
    If I had to describe my own beliefs, the closest I could come, and it
    is still a million miles from how I feel, is that like my biological
    existence I have a spiritual mother and father. You could call God my
    father if you like, although that has a few restraints I don't like too
    much. He is the powerful, controlling type, the creator if you like. A
    father figure, and perhaps a friend when you need one. The other
    parent, my mother is nature/gaea/moon/whatever. This is the side that
    represents nurture, love and peace. It concerns me that so many people
    have a spiritual mother or father but not both. Evidence has shown that
    when the pagan religions were first crushed by Christianity, and their
    religious sites were build upon, these new Christian churches still
    accepted the practice of having statues of God. This was not forbidden
    until much later. Where such statues have been found in archeological
    digs, there was often a mother figure too!!!
    
    From these concepts you can see how those that believe in the father
    alone might see killing in his name as OK. Those who believe in the
    mother alone will never condone violence for any reason. She creates,
    but never destroys, well almost never then. The difficulty is in
    reaching a balance, but then did your bio parents never argue????
    
    It would take years to explain all of this in detail, but it comes from
    exploring many faiths, both old and new, and many other aspects of
    life. It is obviously just my opinion, but I hope it helps a little
    Pat. I would be happy to continue the discussion, as I am one of the
    few people I know who is totally happy with their belief. Incidently, I
    think you can only be happy with a conclusion you reach yourself.
    No-one can decide such things for you. Trust you instincts and learn as
    much as possible. Your attitudes and beliefs will evolve and adapt
    throughout your life as you learn more anyway, so any fixed rules
    imposed by others will restrict your growth spiritually.
    
    Jamie, it's a matter of semantics:
    
    	Q. Do you believe in Protestants?
    
    Re. hooks,
    
    	Strange how mankind seems less willing to hang the good things
    	on their God isn't it?
    
    

    Adam  >8^$
    

    >Q. Do you believe in Protestants?
        
    I believe that there are people who consider themselves to be
    Protestants, just the same as I believe that there are people who call
    themselves witches. However I firmly believe that this is a label that
    they have chosen to place upon themselves.

    I also believe there are people who call themselves fire fighters and
    I believe they have been trained to deal with fires. Unlike the first
    two labels this one actually means something.

    >Strange how mankind seems less willing to hang the good things on
    >their God isn't it?

    Why should they? By the rules, as I see it, God is not allowed to
    interfere with things and is unlikely to have had anything to do with
    it.

    Jamie.
        

    
    Jamie,
    
    Do you believe in anything which does not has clear visible evidence?
    
    This is not meant to be an agressive or defensive question, merely
    curiosity.
    
    I have met so many people that refuse to believe in anything that
    cannot be proved, and I am never sure that I understand why this is. A
    first principle of science is that no theory can be proved, only
    disproved. For example gravity attracts two bodies together (lust can
    do the same, but that is a different conference.) We modify the theory
    when we discover it is not true fror anti-matter and matter. This
    theory now holds true until something else comes along ...
    
    If you do not believe in that which cannot be proved, you don't have
    much of a belief in anything.
    
    Adam <8@)
    
    p.s. my family motto is "Mortale non opto" - I do not wish for that
    which is mortal (how restrictive can you get?)

    >Do you believe in anything which does not has clear visible evidence?
    
    Let me put it this way. I am incapable of blind faith. Things like the
    law of gravity, very stringently enforced in Scotland where I grew up,
    I have no trouble in believing.
    
    Jamie.

    
    Traditionally I would expect blind faith to be a little extreme even
    for this conference, but it is not a binary decision.
    
    I would not jump from my office window in the belief that levitation is
    possible, but I might be curious enough to investigate the claims of
    someone who thought they could. I neither believe nor disbelieve. I
    guess my particular jury remains out on most issues, certainly all the
    ones in here. For me the fun is in watching the evidence amass, both
    for and against.
    
    Many things we now take for granted were once matters for great doubt,
    and if everyone had refused to have any faith in them at all they would
    never have been developed and 'proved' at all. A survey a few years ago
    showed that most serious top level scientists have a strong faith in
    some collective force or energy, and almost all would be prepared to
    accept the possibility of esp, witchcraft, etc.
    
    I do not suggest that you are narrow-minded, or even closed-minded, but
    am still puzzled as to your 'inability' (your word) to accept anything
    that cannot be 'scientifically' proved. Why do you feel this way? Are
    you scared of the possibility? Surely you cannot think it a waste of
    time, or you would not be here in Deja-Vu. Maybe you're a little more
    curious than you like to admit ....
    
    Adam  '8~)

    
    Re.16
    
    >Things like the law of gravity, very stringently enforced in Scotland 
    >where I grew up,
    
    Yeah, and it's a darn good thing too!!! Otherwise the secret of just 
    what is under those kilts would be forever revealed and the Mystery of 
    Life would be taken away.                                 
    
    'Course, when Mel Gibson - whilst appearing on the David Letterman show
    some time ago - told of the time when he asked a Scot wearing a kilt 
    just what did they wear underneath anyway, the Scot replied, "Your wife's 
    lipstick.", Mel replied, (this reply censored for daytime audiences). (;^)
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

    >I do not suggest that you are narrow-minded, or even closed-minded, but
    >am still puzzled as to your 'inability' (your word) to accept anything
    >that cannot be 'scientifically' proved. Why do you feel this way?

    Well where do we start? Possibly by me being forced to go to church
    every Sunday as a child by my paternal grandmother. Fortunately after
    she died the pressure came off me and I seldom saw the inside of a
    church after that.

    However having to sit through that load of rubbish Sunday after Sunday
    did leave its mark. At no time did I ever really believe what they were
    telling me, it was all too ridiculous for words.

    Then later in life I became a maintenance engineer in telecoms. Here I
    learned that if you wanted to be sure of something, you tested it
    yourself. If you relied on what others told you and acted upon it as if
    it was true you would sooner or later make a fool of yourself.

    Strangely enough this attitude made me popular as I seldom sent
    linesmen off in the wrong direction.

    Later when I moved into computers I always never trusted anyone's tale
    of what happened before the machine went toes up, or which things had
    been done to fix it before I came in.

    So I tend to believe what has been proved scientifically and remain
    skeptical about everything else. There are a lot of charlatans out
    there feeding on the innocent.

    >Are you scared of the possibility?

    No, not at all.

    >Maybe you're a little more curious than you like to admit .... 

    I am very curious, but I always require proof.

    Jamie.
                                   

    
    Thank you for your considered answers, Jamie. I am glad that you were not 
    offended by my questions, as they were not meant to be offensive.
    Unfortunately some people with much the same attitude as yourself tend
    to take defensive attitudes, and take them to the limit.
    
    The church thing I can appreciate completely, I was in much the same
    situation for most of my childhood, and I hated it. As I mentioned
    elsewhere, I think people should be able to make their own minds up
    about these things, and not have it forced down their throat. The
    problem is that many religious types do not believe in making all of
    the information available to people, since then these people might
    decide against that particular belief. My father always used to say
    that any belief that could not stand up to a few questions was a little
    too fragile for his liking. Of course blind faith requires no proof,
    indeed proof denies faith, so the last thing their God would want is
    any proof. Dodgy eh?
    
    I begin to suspect that your "disbelief" and my "belief" are not too
    dissimilar. Again, it is a matter of definitions. I do not accept
    anything on faith, and I never will do, I require the ability to make
    what I estimate to be my best guess at a particular issue, but will
    consider all available "evidence", where I believe it to be due any
    fair consideration. Is this a million miles from your requiring proof?
    As regards open-mindedness, if you were unprepared to accept the
    possibility of a thing then why would you be interested in peoples'
    opinion on that thing? Neither of us will ever totally believe in any
    issue in this area, but there may be a difference in that I will also
    never totally write something off simply because there is currently
    insufficient evidence to support it.
    
    This is all slightly outside of the original discussion topic however.

    
    .20
    
    This is all slightly outside of the original discussion topic however.
    
    Heaven forbid we should actually stay 100% on a topic in this
    conference!  (;^)             
    
    There is a realm beyond blind faith and objective proof, and that is
    of direct experience.  For example, if there is someone out there who
    is proving that there is no such thing as a Human Energy Field, no
    matter what kind of logic was used to deduce that it didn't exist, it
    would have no effect upon my absolute certainty that it does exist,
    simply because I can feel it, work with it, balance it, and do a few
    other things too.  Not only that, but I can assist others in perceiving 
    it as well.  So for me to debate whether or not it does or does not 
    exist, is pointless.  This could be misconstrued as having 'blind faith', 
    in that I'm unwilling to give up my supposed 'long-held belief that 
    such a thing does exist in the face of scientific objective proof that
    proves otherwise', but in fact is far from it, because to me it's not a
    belief at all and never was.  
                         
    Cindy

    Adam:
    
    I was going to take your suggestion and write to you off-line because I
    have a lot of questions to put to you, but not only could I not get
    mail to you, but I couldn't find you in ELF.  I figured it out, you're
    a male witch, right?  ;^)
    
    Anyway, I do wish to comment on Jamie's problem of things needing to be 
    "scientifically proved".  I would try everything possible to overcome
    this problem because it is terribly limited and restrictive to a
    person.  It usually happens with people who have been controlled and
    held so tightly as children that they cannot "Let Go" and have "faith". 
    It doesn't have to be "blind" either.  It opens many horizons for you.
    
    Anyway, enough about that.  I have questions for Adam and would like
    you to write off line if possible.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Pat

    
    I don't think Jamie has a 'problem' at all.  It's just a different way
    of approaching things, that's all.
    
    Cindy

    .22  I have a mail account BIS54::DYSON or an allin1 account on
    BIS1::DYSON, both in Brussels, so you may have a fair delay in
    connection. If you have problems with this I can try to find a routing
    address if you like. Otherwise someone here might have an interesting
    idea. By the way, you are not the first to describe me as such, and
    while I have associated with a couple of wicca groups, and my input has
    been welcomed, I have never participated in an ceremonies, so I am
    not officially a wicca witch. A better term might be wizard, as this
    originates from a man who accumulates knowledge in all things
    scientific and occult, it comes from Wise One, roughly translated,
    although as the chinese say, the first step to wisdom is realising how
    little you know.
    
    .23 I agree wholeheartedly with Cindy on this. Whether Jamie has a
    'problem' with his view is his opinion, but as I have said before, I
    think it is mainly a difference in terms. I suspect many things but
    completely believe in few of them. For example, I agree that humans have
    an energy field, since it takes very little experimentation to experience
    this, and learning to feel that field can lead to a much better
    understanding of yourself and your body and mind. I would not however
    say that I 'believe' in it, until I have a better sense of it, which
    may take more than my lifetime(s). Incidently, the combined energy
    fields of life, when focussed on a single issue, by faith or common
    belief, is sufficient in accumulation to create minor miracles. The
    trick is to learn to tap into the other energy fields around you, to
    both heal and boost your own energy, without depleting the energy of
    those around you. That one is an acquired skill, that I have yet to
    master.
    
    To come back to the issue of Jamie's belief. I find his comments
    largely well thought out and not as 'destructive' as they may seem to
    some. Anyone who will look at the issue with a defensively objective
    point of view should be welcome here, as they will balance the opinions
    of those who 'desparately' believe. These conference is for discussion
    of the paranormal etc., and anyone's opinion is as valid as any other.
    The only type of comment which is unwelcome is the type that states
    flat out that such a thing cannot exist. It should also be said that
    the opposite extreme is also non-constructive.
    
    If a person joins this conference, with strong beliefs, and then people
    start to knock and destroy those beliefs, then others would step in and
    say "what right do you have to try to destroy someone's faith in this
    thing? They are entitled to their opinion, and while we may discuss it,
    you have no right to attempt to destroy their faith because you do not
    believe in it." Most of you, I am sure, would agree with this. How
    come, then, we see Jamie's attitudes and beliefs as any less valid than
    ours. I have known more people with strong faith who are closed-minded
    to other beliefs, than I do those who have no faith. From your recent
    message in this conference Pat, I should think that you will appreciate
    this as much as anyone here does.
    
    I for one would welcome any point of view on any issue here, so long as
    they are prepared to discuss and justify their viewpoint. This can only
    prove constructive. A word of caution for those who are just coming
    into the stage of life where they will consider other beliefs: It is
    all too easy to be swept up by the all-consuming passion of those who
    have a faith in something, and equally easy to be dashed to the ground
    again by those who disagree. Only YOUR opinion matters. You need never
    make a decision about these things, just enjoy the experience of
    learning about them, and then when your life is done, you will have the
    comfort of knowing that you made good use of it, whatever happens next.
    
    One man's opinion, a few steps down his own personal road of discovery.
    
    Adam

    >Anyway, I do wish to comment on Jamie's problem of things needing to be 
    >"scientifically proved".  

    Actually it is not a problem at all. 

    >I would try everything possible to overcome this problem because it is
    >terribly limited and restrictive to a person

    In what way restrict me? Would believing everything I was told really
    set me free or would it tie my thinking up trying to resolve the
    inevitable conflicts?

    And I do have faith, but it is faith in science and proving facts to be
    true. 

    When they were training me on fault finding I was taught to form a
    theory of what the fault was. Then you challenge the theory by testing
    the equipment and see if you can fault it. If the theory fails you
    modify the theory or scrap it and get a new one. The one thing you must
    never do is try to bend the known facts fit your theory.

    Now most religions bend known and provable facts to fit their theories
    and this I cannot swallow. 

    Jamie.

    
    This conference is like talking via a very dodgy satellite link.
    
    I work in Brussels, currently from 7.30am to 4pm local time, and many
    of the other correspondents are in the States, working about 12 hours
    offset from me. Where are you anyway Jamie?

    >Where are you anyway Jamie?
                    
    On my way out the door to go home to Buren in the Netherlands. I work
    in UTO.
    
    Jamie.

    
    Well at least you're in the same time zone. NOTE to you tomorrow then.

    Ok, Ok I concede.  The word "problem" that I used to describe Jamie's
    beliefs was a poor choice of words.  I shouldn't have assumed that
    something that I would find restrictive or a problem would be so to
    someone else.  Sorry Jamie.
    
    I am really new at all this stuff and even wonder if I am intellectual
    enough to understand what some of you are describing and feeling. 
    Where would one go to find more information, knowledge, etc.?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Pat

    
    Re.29
    
    What are you looking for, Pat?  I have a library full of these kinds of
    topics and may be able to provide some reading pointers.
    
    Cindy

    Well, I am interested in the history of witches and how they fit into
    today's society.  Are they ever accepted by formal religions and are
    they considered pagan or do they accept christianity?
    
    That's a start anyway.
    
    Pat

    >Well at least you're in the same time zone. NOTE to you tomorrow then.
    
    I'm about 100Km North of you.
    
    Jamie.

    
    Pat,
    
    Please never assume that you are not 'intellectual' enough to
    understand what is said here. If someone uses a phrase you are not
    familiar with, then please ask, many others will be happy to explain.
    You are as welcome here as anyone else. If you don't mind me saying so,
    your insecurity is fairly clear, but it is unnecessary, I assure you.
    We are all children here, some of us have had a few early lessons in
    other schools, but it is the first term for us all, and you will catch
    up fairly soon. We will help you to understand, as much as anyone can,
    what we discuss here, but the decisions and beliefs MUST be yours.
    Enjoy the companionship of sharing thoughts with people of similar
    interests, and have a little fun. I strongly suspect that one of the
    underlying truths of life is that it is not to be taken too seriously.
    So long as you avoid hurting others, surely the best use you can make
    of your life is to explore it, to enjoy it, and to share it. 8-)
    
    There are any number of books on the subject of pagan religions,
    particularly in the UK, as this seems to be a focus for most of these
    groups, probably because they were Celtic in origin.
    
    To be honest with you, I would be much more tempted in your situation
    (I assume you are in the US) to discover what I could of the American
    Indian's beliefs. They are one of the oldest unchanged cultures,
    possibly originating from much older ones, and they have a greater
    understanding of their place in the world, and natural energies and
    stuff, than most other 'pagan' religions. A few books on most subjects
    seem to be available in many large bookshops now, a fair indication
    that we are truly entering the 'Age of Aquarius', whereby we will all
    learn so much about these things. The next 2000 years are destined to
    open our minds, just as the last 2000 were destined to control and
    restrict us through a difficult period of our evolution. It is time
    spread the word of all things, time to accept reality and reject
    illusion, time to discover what we really are.
    
    
    Adam
    
    (One man's opinion) 

    Adam,
    
    I enjoy your outlook and way of looking at life.  It comes through to
    me that you are a man who knows who he is and where he is going.  May I
    ask how long it took you to become this person?  I realize we are all
    evolving every day and that our life here on earth is supposed to be a
    series of learnings and making mistakes and learning again.  Nothing is
    a waste.  Even my two marriages which have I ended because they were
    both rather abusive to me.  It does surprise me that I let some
    insecurities of mine show through in my mentioning my lack of
    intellect.  I am intelligent and interested but lack a lot of formal
    education so that was where that came from I suspect.  I am usually not
    insecure in other ways, having successfully raised five children that
    all became independent, happy and college educated on their own!  
    
    I wanted to respond to your statement that there should be no conflict
    in theory regarding witchcraft and the church. If witches are pagan,
    and pagans do not believe in Christ or God, there is certainly a
    conflict.  I can understand the churches fear because evil definitely
    does exist in the world and religions consider anything pagan as being
    against good/represented by Christ/Christianity and therefore for
    evil/paganism, etc.  I am trying to look at this from the standpoint of
    the churches and their fears for their members.  I do enjoy what I feel
    is a good relationship with my God.  I have had many crisisis and
    challenges and He/She always was by my side.  (Thats my own faith ;^) 
    I was brought up in a protestant church where nothing is jammed down
    your throat but gently brought to you to explore for yourself.  I went
    not just for guidance but for the fellowship with other loving people. 
    I taught Sunday School and sang in the Choir and it was a positive
    experience for me.  I did realize that among my young Catholic friends
    in those growing up years were having a different experience from me. 
    They told me if they didn't attend they would burn in Hell and junk
    like that so their attendance was based on fear and threats.
    
    I believe you are on to something good in your suggestion of studying
    the American Indians.  They certainly had a wonderful awe and respect
    of their environment and their Gods and their people.  They managed to
    pass through woods and fields and life without leaving any damage
    behind (except when challenged by the "white man" of course.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Pat

    
    Pat,
    
    Thank you for your reply, it was flattering and obviously well
    considered. I am glad that you can appreciate the simplicity of my
    philosophy, which of course makes it much easier to apply to life than
    more complex 'established' philosophies might be. There are times when
    it doesn't help much though. I have recently escaped (narrowly) from a
    very destructive relationship with a woman who was quite ill,
    physically and emotionally, which came quite close to be destroying me
    completely. Ultimately I ended up leaving the country to ensure that I
    had successully extricated myself from the situation, and even now
    there are fears behind my confident exterior that she or her pet thug
    will find me again.
    
    As regards age, I have always felt that physical age means little in
    terms of wisdom or experience. I have been examining psychic phenomena
    and religious philosophies fairly actively on and off for fifteen
    years, so I have a fair base of 'knowledge' to work from. My
    explorations have also given me a fair degree of practical experience
    of my own, plus a wealth of experience from interviewing others. Even
    with all of this, however, I would not consider my opinion any more
    valid than yours or anyone else's. It may be based on more experience
    or reading, but that does not make it right, just right for me at this
    moment in time. You could easily cause me to change or adjust my
    opinion on any subject based on your experiences or beliefs, if I
    thought you brought something new into the melting pot. Just as each
    vote in an election tilts the balance slightly one way or another, so
    each opinion I am given will tilt my view slightly. The vote has barely
    begun so each vote makes a discernable difference, and what better
    place than this to vote?
    
    Regarding witchcraft (wicca) versus Christianity. Christians are not
    permitted to believe in other philosophies. Most witches however see no
    problem in believing that God/Christ exists/existed, or any other such
    belief. There philosophy is a simple one, and they do not feel it
    excludes any other. I had a long conversation with one coven about
    this, and was surprised to discover that many of them believed that
    God, Allah, Budda etc. might well exist. After all, why shouldn't they?
    It makes no difference to a witch whether God exists, as long as his
    children don't persecute him/her. Christians of course feel
    differently.
    
    As a side issue, I also spent a few months in 1993 contemplating the
    supposed conflict between science and religion regarding creation and
    evolution. This is a slightly contentious issue, so I hope I don't
    offend anyone here, but ...
    
    1.	Since light, and therefore days, did not exist at the creation of
    	the world, according to Genesis, then the idea of the world being
    	created in six days takes on a different meaning. For a cosmic
    	being a day could be a million of our years. So six days could
    	be a very long time indeed. Let us suppose that each 'day' is just
    	a way of describing a stage of the world's creation, and has no
    	real temporal definition that we could understand.
    
    2.	Look at any creature and you will wonder at the complexity of it,
    	the detail and the sheer 'miracle' of its existence. Evolution can
    	explain how modern life formed from early fossil records, but it
    	makes it no less miraculous for all that, so how do we get around
    	this? A simple definition for those who wish to have one:
    
    		Evolution is God's toolbox
    
    Interesting thoughts, and not original I suspect. I reached these
    conclusions, not in an attempt to justify any beliefs of my own, but
    to try to bring together two people on different sides of a fence that
    wasn't really there. My own humble mission in life is to get people
    talking to each other, to break down the barriers of cultural and
    philosophical differences, and to allow us all to learn from each
    other. It gives me immense pleasure when peopple such as yourself start
    to break through their own personal walls and expand themselves a
    little. You need not cross any lines Pat, there are no doors you have
    to close behind you as you open others. All of your experience is valid
    to you, and none of it is really a conflict. Realise that there are no
    real lines except those we draw for ourselves, and you will have put
    one foot on a much bigger road. Our time on separate paths is coming to
    an end, as we learn from each other, and people really come together on
    one big road, yet to be travelled by most, and yet well-travelled by a
    few. They will welcome us I think, for they have no prejudice or
    persecution, theirs is an open house. I met such a man once, a long
    time ago, and he set me off on this path of mine, he gave me an idea
    that the road was there. If you could see his simple peaceful
    confidence, his understanding of the simple truths behind it all, then
    you would have some idea, as I have, of what we stand to achieve. This
    was no prophet, no messiah, and no preacher. I met him in a social
    gathering of many friends, and he and I began to talk. One or two
    others there had some sense of his peace, but very few noticed, and I
    was the only one who asked him why. He did not mind at the others
    disinterest, but was happy to tell me a little of his understanding.
    Here was a man who moved through life with a spiritual grace that I
    have never seen matched, and that gave me something to aim for.
    
    Well, I ramble on, and I should get some work done. Unfortunately I
    cannot eat on the money I would be paid as a philosopher, so I must
    work for a living.
    
    Speak to you again soon, and all of you who read this, have a good and
    peaceful weekend.
    
    Adam  :-)

    Adam,
    
    As one who is usually read only, and going through the absolute _worst_
    time in my life, I found your remarks very beautiful - and felt more
    peaceful than I have in the past 5 years simply reading them.  Thank
    you so much,  I think you may have matched the man you spoke of
    meeting, and, to me at least, you certainly seem to possess an ample 
    supply of spiritual grace yourself.
    
    Mary

    Adam,
    
    As I said off-line and wanted to say here again, (and as Mary has said)
    your words and outlook on life are very beautiful and you have already
    reached out and helped other people just by sharing them with us.  I
    also think you have been touched by the man you spoke of and now are
    carrying his message to us.  Not a chance meeting I'm sure.  We meet
    people in life and give and receive from them for a reason and not
    always just by chance.  Part of the learning experience we must all go
    through.
    
    Thanks again for your blessings.
    
    Pat

    
    Mary and Pat,
    
    I am truly overwhelmed. Your messages of thanks have made me happier
    than I can possibly describe, although I must say that I cannot believe
    I am due such high praise.
    
    I hope one day that I will be able to inspire the peace and will to
    dicover that this mysterious man inspired in me, but I cannot see that 
    happening for some time. If my simple words have given you some peace
    then I am grateful to whatever gave me the words to pass on.
    
    As I mentioned to Pat in reply to her EMAIL, much of my life seems to
    be a gently guided pathway through experience, and I am blessed with
    luck in many things. I am a very lucky man and any chance I have to
    pass any of my happiness onwards is an ever greater blessing.
    
    Mary, I hope that your troubles sort themselves out. Even though I
    expect I can offer little in the way of help or support, you are
    welcome to contact me by EMAIL if you wish. As is anyone else out
    there. I cannot claim to any great wisdom or experience that can help
    anyone, but I am almost as good a listener as I am a talker.
    
    Again, I thank you deeply for your kind words. You have touched my life
    with your your messages at least as much I can have touched yours. I
    feel honoured, and incredibly lucky. The world is a brighter place
    today.
    
            
    Adam   :->

>    In what way restrict me? Would believing everything I was told really
>    set me free or would it tie my thinking up trying to resolve the
>    inevitable conflicts?

It doesn't seem to me like anyone is suggesting you should believe in 
everything. 

Believing everything would not necessarily set you free, but then 
neither does disbelieving things absolutely free you either. 

Accepting that what for some is an ultimate truth may not appear 
so to you, but that the improbability you find does not make it 
false it simply opens up another avenue to explore and hopefully 
find a few more 'facts' along the way. 

>    When they were training me on fault finding I was taught to form a
>    theory of what the fault was. Then you challenge the theory by testing
>    the equipment and see if you can fault it. If the theory fails you
>    modify the theory or scrap it and get a new one. The one thing you must
>    never do is try to bend the known facts fit your theory.


When forming some of your theories do you believe they may be correct 
before the fact have proven them correct? 

Do you believe after one set of facts appear to have proven it so?

How about if the 5th set of facts prove the theory wrong after 
4 to say it is almost certainly true?

If you don't believe, because of a lack of proof, in the existance of:
	- a God as specific religions see him
	- witches
	- black holes
	- ghosts
	- that Jesus Christ actually lived 

surely you cannot either believe:
	- that God doesn't exist
	- that witches are not different to non-witches
	- that black holes are impossible
	- that ghosts are hallucinations created by troubled minds
	- that Jesus Christ *never* lived

the second bunch of assumptions can be no better proven by facts than 
the first. ... 

Until you have *ALL* the facts about *everything* then all you are ever 
doing is making an assumption, or theory if you like, about the world
and testing it against facts to modify or enhance your theory set, or 
personal religion. Since you can't know for certain which facts are 
relevant or not you can't know which you can dismiss as unnecessary
to proving your theory. 

Experiences so far in life will no doubt influence which 
theories you chose to expect to be proven right by the facts - 
it has to. It is all you have to base your theories on as with 
anyone else. Unfortunately for communication between people 
not so interested in learning about what degree of truth they 
can find in others many peoples experiences lead to such 
opposing theories they never take time to consider the truth
in the others theories and misunderstandings or possibility 
of their own theories being maybe to some degree false or 
inaccurate.

I guess they call it learning or growing most of the time 
but it seems the only thing people seem to be seeing or calling
a problem in Jamies notes is the implication that he has had 
his share of religion as a child and is not prepared to be 
subjected to any more religion of any sort at all because 
a theory he developed at the end of childhood and has kept 
since says all religion is 2.12.    

I get the impression other contributors suspect Jamie of 
having learnt more since childhood and of possibly if not 
probably being at a point where he could consider
re-assessing whether or not the theory that stood him in 
good stead back then is still a valid one now or whether
it maybe could use a little tailoring. 

However, Jamie alone can know whether he feels any need 
to reconsider his theories, whether they are open to be 
tested against a few new facts, or whether he believes
his theory on religion to have already been tested 
against all the facts he has at his disposal - or 
whether perhaps the possible benefits (learning, growing, 
perhaps uncovering a part of a theory that is better 
fine tuned a little) are outweighed by the possible 
cost of those things (time, possible personal 
conflict, and the effort to truly comprehend anothers 
view) and the probability of there really being 
any change from the status quo on his personal religion
at the end of it all. 

I must confess from the stand point of believing 
organised public religions to be twisting facts and hence 
lying and trying to mislead people from truth then I too 
would find it hard to see the point in re-examining 
them for elements of truth.   That would only become
a worthwhile exercise when I knew of some way to tell 
what is truth and what is twisted - which if I knew that 
then I'd probably be beyond theoretically considering 
which points a religious organisation makes are valid; 

I suspect I'd probably not be noting still either.    :-) 


Jo

    
    Jo,
    
    Welcome to Deja-Vu, or should that be welcome back?
    
    You seem to say much the same about Jamie's attitude as I have said, in
    that it is his decision whether his attitude represents a problem to
    him, and a block on his own personal growth as a person. I also
    appreciate the comments on being unable to prove anything, as I said
    much the same myself a while back.
    
    Since we have seen or heard little from Jamie for a while, as others
    have merrily discussed his potential problem, I was rather surprised to
    see a note that first supported, then questioned his attitude, before
    finally stating that your attitude, for different reasons perhaps, was
    not that far from his.
    
    As a point of interest, and if you don't mind me asking, what did cause
    you to drift in here? Or are you another read-only subscriber?
    
    Adam

    
    To return, if possible, to the original question, and particularly I
    would ask Jo and Jamie to answer these:
    
    1)	Do you believe in a natural energy that could be labelled
    witchcraft?
    
    2)	Do you believe in a conscious lifeform that could be called a
    Demon?
    
    3)	Do you believe that either the study and worship of either 1) or 2)
    above could be harmful, and why?
    
    4)	Would you attempt to stop either of them, and why?
    
    Try not to answer any of these with just YES or NO. These questions, of
    course, would be of interest to everyone, but I would particularly like
    Jo and Jamie to answer them. Everyone else, answer if you wish, even
    you read-only types out there. Let's get a feel for this one.
    
    Adam 

    Re Jo

    >When forming some of your theories do you believe they may be correct 
    >before the fact have proven them correct? 

    No. Sometimes I hope they are correct.

    >Do you believe after one set of facts appear to have proven it so?

    Of course not. A theory must fit all the facts, not just some of them.

    >How about if the 5th set of facts prove the theory wrong after  4 to
    >say it is almost certainly true?

    Then the theory is flawed and must be modified or discarded.

>If you don't believe, because of a lack of proof, in the existance of:
>	- a God as specific religions see him
>	- witches
>	- black holes
>	- ghosts
>	- that Jesus Christ actually lived 

>surely you cannot either believe:
>	- that God doesn't exist
>	- that witches are not different to non-witches
>	- that black holes are impossible
>	- that ghosts are hallucinations created by troubled minds
>	- that Jesus Christ *never* lived

    I may believe what I wish. I may also put some things in the pending
    tray awaiting evidence. 

    Re .41 
    
    >1)	Do you believe in a natural energy that could be labelled
    >witchcraft?
    
    In my experience natural energy is usually labelled "wind", "lightning"
    "tides" and that sort of thing.

    >2)	Do you believe in a conscious lifeform that could be called a
    >Demon?

    No, I already explained that.
    
    >3)	Do you believe that either the study and worship of either 1) or 2)
    >above could be harmful, and why?
    
    No, the world is full of people with strange ideas.
    
    >4)	Would you attempt to stop either of them, and why?
    
    Certainly not. Unless someone is causing harm to others why should they
    be stopped.

    Now all this said, I do really believe that I am a Wizard, with mighty
    powers. Unfortunately this condition only occurs when I am playing in a
    computer simulated Multi User Dungeon which lurks out there on the net.

    Jamie.

>    Welcome to Deja-Vu, or should that be welcome back?
>    As a point of interest, and if you don't mind me asking, what did cause
>    you to drift in here? Or are you another read-only subscriber?

Hmm, that's a long memory.  I'm an occasional RON but normally only 
when someone else mentions something .... as you can guess, someone 
mentioned it.

>    To return, if possible, to the original question, and particularly I
>    would ask Jo and Jamie to answer these:
 
I'm sure we can manage it briefly without disrupting the discussion 
on whether Jamies beliefs hold valid for other people :-)
   
>   1)	Do you believe in a natural energy that could be labelled
>    witchcraft?
 
I don't know anywhere near enough (yet) about what people call witchcraft
to know whether I could honestly say I believe or disbelieve, especially 
since such comments are taken as absolute. 

I'm quite prepared to accept though that there are many things we've 
not yet managed to understand or explain and maybe never will - that 
there may well be strengths beyond those we can or have explain which 
some people are lucky enough to learn to become attuned to and other 
mimick because they think there are benefits they can achieve from 
such a shortcut. 
 
>    2)	Do you believe in a conscious lifeform that could be called a
>    Demon?

:-) I'm sorry but I support unix so I really can't answer that question 
without grinning too much (-: 
   
>    3)	Do you believe that either the study and worship of either 1) or 2)
>    above could be harmful, and why?
 
Study of something, unless done destructively (ie: studying how the digestive
system of a frog works by cutting it open after giving it dinner) is 
unlikely to be harmful - that is assuming by study you mean finding out, 
taking in all the details and trying to understand what it's all about. 

Worship of anything, (money, sex, a person, a religious theory, a mythical 
character) always holds potential to be harmful. The implications, as I
understand them, of worship is of holding something beyond question, 
as something more worthwhile than yourself or others. It is of extravagance 
in the respect given something, it is increasing the status of the worshiped 
thing far beyond that it would usually be given or justifies in and of it's 
own existance. 

Hence, it seems unbalanced and liable to encourage obsessive behaviour, 
narrow mindedness and an inability to see the worth of some other things 
because by comparison to the subject of the devoted worship they are 
worthless.  Even if they are another human life - families - children.
On that basis yes I think worship can be harmful. 

Whether it be demons, witches, angels, ghosts, God, or a small siamese 
kitten you thought you saw on the way home that you are studying or 
worshiping the view stays pretty much the same - though something 
which is traditionally associated with destructive behaviour could 
potentially be more harmful to worship than other things.


>    4)	Would you attempt to stop either of them, and why?
 
In reality it would have to be something reasonably extreme 
for me to try to stop anyone else doing what they thought 
was right. But I would try to stop some things some times. 

Possibly the worship of things destructive, far better encourage 
someone to study it and keep an objective view than worship 
mindlessly. (Which in my mind encompases any race beliefs of being 
the superior ones and having a right to cleanse your planet of 
those who differ just as much as it does religious groups 
pronouncing death sentances on authors).

As to why: because if there's one belief I am reasonably 
certain is soundly based in my collection it is that taking 
the life of another person, against their will, for personal
gain is very wrong.

Although within reason "Bob" can do what he feels is right 
if he feels it right to go cut "Carol"s throat that doesn't 
leave Carol very free to do whatever she feels is right. 

Incidentally I'm assuming we're talking balanced sane people 
studying or worshipping things here. Mental illnesses are 
definately too complex to start considering in conjuction 
with religion! 


>    Try not to answer any of these with just YES or NO. 

Not much of a challenge there then.. :-) 

>   Of course not. A theory must fit all the facts, 
> not just some of them.


And you honestly believe you have all the facts about any 
particular subject?!

>     I may believe what I wish.

Of course. 

> I may also put some things in the pending tray awaiting evidence. 

Which I think is where some people were suggesting you 
placed some of your views, obviously not realising that 
you do that anyway. 

>   Now all this said, I do really believe that I am a Wizard,

No harm in that, given past experiences of you Jamie I can 
believe that quite possible (given the circumstances that you describe).



I'm just grateful I'm around now where we can debate whether
or not a witch (someone for heavens sake define what a witch is 
meant to be in this context) is something a person can be or 
a thing a person simply has delusions about. 

I'd far rather be around now than in a time where I would 
probably already have been burnt or drowned for living alone 
with my cat and attempting to practice aromatherapy .... 
..not to mention having been out of this body once already! 

There is a notes conference dedicated to the subject
of Demon. Sweep::Demon KP7 for your enjoyment.

Simon

    Re .44

    >And you honestly believe you have all the facts about any particular
    >subject?!

    The subject in question was, a broken computer. When my theory fits the
    facts I know the reason that the computer was broken and I can then fix
    it.

    Basically theories are cheap and quite disposable. However I have seen
    engineers who will attempt to defend their theory by either ignoring
    facts or by bending them. This made them rather useless as engineers.

    Now most religions will have us believe thing that that are not true.
    They bend the truth or ignore awkward facts. Many other "beliefs" use
    this practice. 

    Jamie.
                                

    
    Thank you both.
    
    I have to admit to a degree of amusement over the fact that some people
    seem to be more defensive over their right to not believe in something
    than others are about their right to believe in it.
    
    We will be having non-witch hunts before you know it.
    
    Jo, what out of body experience?? (well, you can't of thought I'd let
    that one go) I am also into aromatherapy - good innit?
    
    For the sake of argument:
    
    Witch: a person who studies and believes in the power of nature, may
    perform worship of nature and practice of natural methods, commonly
    member of Wicca faith, being an Anglo-Saxon pagan religion pre-dating
    Christianity in northern Europe. More witches are non-practicing in a
    defined way than Christians (percentage wise), but for the sake of this
    discussion allow us to consider the practicing Wicca groups.
    
    Demon: a conscious entity and embodiment of evil, a servant of
    Lucifer/Satan, a being with the ability to grant powers to its
    followers, but generally thought of as purely malicious in intent.
    
    Now then, what was the question again?
    
    By the way, Jo and Jamie, I hope you stick around in here, because
    apart from your the fact that we seem to spend an awful lot of time
    arguing about who can believe in what (or not), a contrasting viewpoint
    could easily make a discussion more interesting and lively.
    
    Adam
    

    Well having had an out of body experience, I tend to think that they
    can happen. But I would say that I am not 100% certain.

    Jamie.

    
    As has been said, no-one can be 100% certain, even if they think so.
    
    Tell us more .... please ....
    
    
    Adam$curious

    At the time I was under some stress and I was heavily sedated. However
    the trip report is on 2053::MEDICAL 1760.8 should you wish to learn
    more. As usual it is a bit long winded.

    Press Kp7 or select to put this entry in your notebook.

    Jamie.

>    Jo, what out of body experience?? (well, you can't of thought
I'd let
>    that one go) I am also into aromatherapy - good innit?

Asked for it really didn't I..... 

Um, just a while when I'd passed out and watched myself being 
carried out of the hall we were in from a way above. Doubted 
a bit if it wasn't my subconcious carrying out some enacting 
of a bit of wishful thinking then had it pointed out to me 
that managing to describe someones appearance who had only 
been around whilst I was unconcious, head slumped down, and 
had since left before I came too might suggest that I appeared
to be seeing things ok so probably was out there... 
.... never managed to do it since, and went back that time 
as soon as I remember realising what I was doing and thinking
it kind of fascinating. 


>  Witch: a person who studies and believes in the power of
nature, etc

In that case I definately believe in witches - there's loads of 
them all over the place I'm sure :-) 

I'm just a little more sceptical about certain attributed 
powers which seem to come from myth or fear (turning into 
animals etc) and a little wary of those who loudly profess
an interest as it seems so often to be not a genuine belief
or interest but something they think will look good in 
their image, something to make them interesting to other
people and which gives them authority to tell others
when they're wrong and nature or whatever other name is 
right. 

The demon I have a little more of a problem with. 
You see it's a tad of a leap from people who believe in 
things and maybe can enhance their abilities through
that route to believing in non-human spirits who're
around just to corrupt and cause destruction through 
the hands of vunerable people.  However not having 
any proof to the contrary I guess my view would have
to be summed up as ...

I think it unreasonable to group demons and witches
together in a discussion as they have nothing to do 
with each other except in being something that people
have doubts about often, however if that is enough 
association then passing an O level English Literature
exam must've been pretty supernatural too :-) 

Demons could exist, as much as guardian angels, or 
the thought fairy could. 

Witches do exist in the same way as Christians or 
Buddhists do. 

Now which of the above three lots doctrines sound
reasonable and honest about human life is another 
matter. 

I find myself using the same reasoning on astral projection 
and ghosts... if the spirit can temporarily exist without
the mechanisms of the body how can we judge how temporary
that existance is? It can't be on mechanical failure of 
the body otherwise those who have had their heart restarted
etc would no longer have their spirit there so why shouldn't
you hang around if you've a reason. 

But then that's just a train of thought and I'm starting 
to feel like I'm handing out shovels to rodents.


>a contrasting viewpoint
>    could easily make a discussion more interesting and lively.


Hmm, I'm not sure I can manage contrasting view points too 
well, I do *try* to be open minded. 

    
    You don't have to try to achieve a contrasting opinion, you either have
    one or you don't.
    
    Out of body thing is good. Another one of those things so many people
    has experienced but cannot explain by scientific methods. Ergo
    something outside of known science must exist to explain it. We don't
    actually need to know what that thing is, but I find it fun talking
    about it, just like everything else here.
    
    Witches. Most of those I know simply feel that nature has an energy
    that can be tapped for some natural healing and divination purposes. A
    few believe that sex generates energy fields, and I would be hard
    pressed to disagree with that one - no pun intended ;-) Unfortunately,
    like with any other belief, there are those who use it to scare and
    manipulate people. I knew one such person well, and we had a few
    contests of will over the subject. Incidently, I don't know many
    witches who claim to be able to turn themselves into animals, most
    would be surprised if their natural remedies worked!!
    
    Demons. A tricky one that. We have a problem here, since the original
    point was whether Witchcraft and Demon-Worship were diametrically
    opposed. Witchcraft, as such must be the practice of witches, as
    described above, and Demon-worship is a little more obvious. I cannot
    define Demon-worship to the same extent as Witchcraft, as there are
    limits to my exploration and they fall far short of anything like that.
    As with saeances (I know it's spelled badly), I do not know whether
    there is anything too them, but it is too dangerous a game to play on
    the offchance that there might be. I am told being at ground zero of a
    nuclear detonation is pretty bad, and I will take someone else's word
    for it, I don't need to try it thanks.
    
    As I said much earlier, I do not see Witchcraft and Demon-Worship as
    being diametrically opposed, because they aren't even on the same
    circle. Christianity and Demon-Worship are diametrically opposed.
    Christianity is opposed to anything other than Christianity. Witches
    are opposed to anything potentially destructive. Simple really. Well,
    it's just an opinion.
    
    Adam
    
    A rodent with a battered old shovel, and always happy for a new one.

    Well, I must say I was surprised to open this file this morning and
    find so many new replies.  Do you folks spend the weekend in Notes or
    are we just so far off on the time differences for those of you in
    Europe.
    
    I just wanted to say to Adam especially that I spent part of my
    weekend, not reading about Indians yet, but reading a library book put
    out by Time/Life series on Witches and Witchcraft.  It was very
    enlightening and I now know more than I did on the history and
    beginnings of witches as well as something about the modern worship of
    Wicca.  I was horrified to realize how persecuted and misunderstood
    witches were in early Europe and later here in the U.S. in the 1400's
    and even before and after.  King James alone (who of course has a bible
    named after the dear boy) put to death more so-called witches than any
    other monarch and it was much the same all through Europe.  All I could
    think of was the correlation between their deaths and the horrible
    deaths of Jews and others during WWII.  Most of these people/witches
    did not "label" themselves witches as such but were given the label by
    the stupid/ignorant/fearful magistrates and religious leaders and only
    admitted to being witches in the hope of avoiding torture and death (to
    no avail as you know).  They did/do not have a relationship with Satan
    and in fact feel about him much as Christians and others feel. Todays
    witches worship the Goddess of the earth/life/death/birth and do not
    evil but actually do some good works.  They celebrate life and even
    believe in God in some form.  Witches are even credited with stopping
    the invasion of Hitler into England during WWII.  Apparently the story
    goes that they stood on the shores and put forth their power and
    thoughts into willing that Hitler not cross the ocean and at the last
    minute he did indeed change his mind and decided against crossing over.
    
    As far as whether witches exist, they exist in that they are a
    recognized religion and have been accepted by the Commonwealth of
    Massachusetts as such and I imagine in other areas as well.  We label
    ourselves (as Jamie once called it) as we believe ourselves to be, do
    we not?  Whatever we perceive to be the truth whether it be Witch,
    Christian, friend, mother, father, sister, professor and the labels go
    on and on.
    
    We are what we believe ourselves to be.
    
    Pat

    Just a note (in a NOTE :-)  ) When Jamie says that he was under some
    stress, he's putting it just a tad lightly. Read this NOTE in medical,
    it's worth it.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    
    Please pass those veggie nibbles, Bill...this is gettin' good!
    
    Cindy

>>>>a contrasting viewpoint
>>>>could easily make a discussion more interesting and lively.

>>>Hmm, I'm not sure I can manage contrasting view points too 
>>>well, I do *try* to be open minded. 

>>    You don't have to try to achieve a contrasting opinion, you
>>either have one or you don't.

However a contrasting view point in a very open minded person
could easily become a very similar view point if well argued.

And it's the open minded that takes trying sometime - not the 
ability to disagree with others :-)




> Another one of those things so many people
> has experienced but cannot explain by scientific methods.

Ah, if we're getting into that I was talking with someone 
just last night who having seen her father die, and spent 
a little time standing there, as she went to leave saw
what she describes as being like seeing the wind or a breeze, go
from him into her, her mother and her sister. I believe she 
saw it but couldn't try to explain or prove quite what she saw. 

                    
    Re.53
    
    Pat,
    
    I went through some of my library over the weekend and came up with
    the following reading references you may be interested in:
    
    	"The Chalice and the Blade", by Riane Eisler
    	"The Kingdom of God Is Within You", by Leo Tolstoy
    	"A Woman's Worth", by Marianne Williamson
    	"Anything by Elaine Pagels (mostly on Gnostic subjects)
    
    There's also a good book on the US witchhunts entitled, "The Devil In
    The Shape Of A Woman", however the book is at home and I can't recall
    the author.  
    
    If any of these appeal to you, I can go into greater detail about them
    if you'd like.  
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,
    
    Talk about coincidences, I also picked up "The Devil in the Shape of a
    Woman" at the same time I borrowed the other book on Witches and
    Witchcraft.
    
    I forget the author's name but am trying to get into it.  It starts off
    by describing the women who were labelled witches and something of
    their history.
    
    I am interested in "A Woman's Worth" if you want to tell me something
    about it.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Pat

                                               
    Pat,
    
    'Coincidences' - I love it!  (;^)
    
    "A Woman's Worth", written by Marianne Williamson, was published back
    in 1993.  She wrote "A Return To Love", which has a basis in ACIM (A
    Course In Miracles - not sure if you're familiar with this.)  In
    'Worth', she just puts it all on the line and talks very directly about
    subjects such as who we really are, what our purpose is/should be here,
    sex and the soul, and reclaiming our original identities that we've
    managed to lose for a myriad of reasons.  It's one of my favorites.   
    
    I also like "A Gift From The Sea", by Anne Morrow Lindbergh - it's over
    25 years old now, a real classic, and every word still applies. A very
    gentle and insightful book on relationships with one's self, one's
    significant other, and humanity in general.
    
    Cindy

    
    Another little snippet that I picked up, that may be of interest.
    
    There is a church in Northumbria with a tree carved upon the cross. The
    tree is the Tree of Life, which is the traditional image of the Wicca
    faith. Early Christian churches had no problem with accepting Wicca
    beliefs, and the people seemed to have no problem in amalgamating the
    two concepts. So when did it all go wrong?
    
    You are correct about the similarity between the Jews and Witches in
    terms of their persecution. Especially since Hitler also persecuted
    pagan religions in teh same way as Jews. He just found more Jews, so we
    know more about them. It is my experience that modern day Wicca are
    almost as shunned and persecuted by the established church, and it is
    something that I would love to be able to stop, as soon as I find the
    chance. People should be allowed to have their beliefs, as long as they
    do not harm others. To attempt to convert them because you think they
    are damaging their souls is intrusive enough, but to abuse them because
    you do not understand them is outrageous, and to some unforgivable.
    
    Adam (just another opinion)

    Adam,
    
    Isn't the Tree of Life the same tree that held the fruit which Eve was
    coerced by the Serpent to eat off?  It really all does fit, doesn't it?
    
    Cindy,
    
    Surprise, surprise again.  I have "A Return to Love" on tapes and "Gift
    from the Sea" in my large collection of books at home.  Not to change
    the subject here but I have an hour commute to work and books on tape
    have been a lifesaver for me.  I actually look forward to getting in
    the car again.
    
    Thanks,  Pat

    Interesting in comparing the Tree of Life to the Eve and the apple
    legend. Tree of Life can also be compared to Yggdrassil, the World Tree
    from Norse myths.
    
    Now I have read an interesting, though probably not original possible
    idea behind the whole Eve/Serpent/Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
    myth.
    
    It seems that many years (read up 800,000 years) ago, early humans were
    gathered on a mountain side. This was in winter and around the time of
    the Solstice. There was a storm and a clan was huddling near a mountain
    side for protection and warmth from the elements. Suddenly a lightning
    bolt struck a tree and set it afire. The clan ran further away, afraid
    of this destruction from the gods. All save one. This person, a woman,
    became curious and went near the burning tree. She felt it's warmth and
    could see in the darkness with it's light. She picked up a burning
    branch that had fallen off and began to dance around the tree while
    holding it. The others were still fearful, but came closer when they
    saw that the woman was not harmed. One of the men, the leader of the
    clan, not to out done by a "mere woman", also picked up a branch. When
    he found that the gods did not strike him dead, he became embolden and
    also began to dance around. The combination of the event, the heat and
    the warmth aroused the man and he grabbed the woman and had sex with
    her. 
    
    There are a number of myths tied up in this story. The Adam and Eve
    myth. The serpent is the lightning. The tree is the tree, but the
    knowledge is fire and the beginnings of science. Now humans were moving
    forward and could not return to the "Garden". Also the part at the end
    of the couple haveing relations, well if she became pregnant, that
    would explain tying in giving birth with gaining the "forbidden
    knowledge" and leaving the "Garden".
    
    This might also be the origin of the Christmas tree and Yule log. We
    decorate and tree or a log with gifts and fire. (lights or candles in
    modern times) The ancients, afraid of the wrath of the gods, may have
    placed offerings on a tree or log and burned it to return the fire to
    the gods, where it belong. The ancients didn't know how to make fire
    yet, they were just learning how to use it. This part also ties in with
    the Keeper of the Flames or the Vestal Virgins. They kept a flame going
    and all other fires were lit from the Sacred Flame from the gods.
    
    This above is just a portion of a neat book that I'm reading now,
    called, "When Santa Was a Shaman."
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    
    	Pat, 
    		So you listen to books on tape during the commute?
    Was that you who cut across 3 lanes this AM and nearly drove me
    into the gutter?  Someone was driving like they were listening
    to Helter Skelter on tape!
    
    	Cindy,
    
    		Have some of these cherry tomatoes from my organic
    	garden. Yes, and try them with this low fat ranch dip!
    
    		....and now, back to our regularly scheduled parrying
    prose.
    		BillM

    Now Bill, people are always teasing me about being able to listen and
    still drive well.  As a matter of fact, "listening" in no way impairs
    to ability to "see" and "concentrate" but then, I just read that women
    can use both sides of their brain at a time and therefore do two or
    three things and men can only use one side at a time.  Honest, its a
    "scientific" fact.
    
    ;^)
    
    PS  The book was called "Things Your Mother Never Told You and Your
    Father Didn't Know" by the author of "Men are from Mars and Women Are
    From Venus" (listened to while driving of course)
    
    :*)

    
    	Yes, Pat,
    		But we men are completely unique from womyn, as we have
    the ability to use another part of our body while our brain is 
    completely disconnected and without it affecting our conscience
    at all! ;>)!!
    
    BillM

       
    Thanks, Bill...just the tomatoes sound yummy!  Can't do the ranch dip,
    so there's more for you.  Maybe some fresh ground pepper though.  Mmm!
    No comment on the last note...hehheh...you said it!
    
    PJ - oh no, another book I'd love to borrow!  (;^)  But not 'till the
    pile has decreased.
    
    Pat - that's funny!  (;^)  I think you'd really like "Blade and
    Chalice" by Eisler, too.  That's from 1987 and she pulls from a great
    deal of sources to form her overall views and ideas.  Think it was
    Pagels who wrote, "Adam, Eve and the Serpent", and there might have been
    something on the Tree in there (been a while since I flipped through
    it).
    
    Cindy

    Viva La Difference'!!!
    
    	Patricia

    
    Greetings friends,
    
    This topic seems to be slipping towards the differences between men and
    women, or is it my imagination? (Note that statistically women have
    bigger brains than men, and they also have bigger tongues, deduce what
    you will. Also the point about women 'multi-tasking' is true, possibly
    due to - women need to gather fruit and watch children, and men need to
    hunt which requires single-minded purpose - someone else's theory by
    the way.)
    
    Almost every belief I have encountered features a tree somewhere in its
    legends. The Tree of Life is a very common theme, in almost those
    words. You would expect sea, sun, moon, rivers etc but why a tree?
    There is no doubt that they hold some mystic value. Incidently it is
    often supposed that Christ was crucified on a tree, there is evidence
    to support this, but it is possible that in order to break from the
    pagan significance of the tree, this 'history' was altered.
    
    Even though many 'faiths' use a tree as a symbol, it is not as a focus
    for worship, merely an old symbol. Wicca, for example, have a book in
    which important notes and ceremonies are written, and this book is
    passed from High Priest(ess) to successor (or whatever the coven call
    them.) This book, the core of their knowledge, is called The Tree.
    
    I might try and follow this up myself at some point, it looks like a
    common focus that is worth exploring. It stands to reason that European
    religions may all be based on an earlier common belief, and would
    explain why Eastern Mysticism, and American Indian beliefs (based
    perhaps in Inca or Aztec pasts - big blank area for me I'm afraid)
    would not contain the same image. It would shake the church a little to
    discover that many of their 'histories' are common with those of pagan
    religions, so I doubt whether much proof exists any more, but it would
    be worth looking into. I'll check with my Wicca friends in the next few
    weeks and see what they say.
    
    Regards,
    
    Adam.
    
    p.s. I also listen to tape books on long journeys, such as back to the
    UK, and it actually helps me to concentrate. A five hour drive can
    easily put you to sleep if you don't keep your mind active. I will try
    to find some of these books you mention I think, as they sound very
    interesting.

    
    	You gotta get used to us, Adam, we love to digress and kick up
    some dust here and there when we see an opening.
    	As far as the symbolism of trees is concerned, I think it is
    quite logical that prehistoric man would come to such a reverent
    attitude toward them.
    	Trees, especially evergreens, represented the largest constant
    surviving part of Cro-Magnum Man's landscape.  Some trees bore fruit,
    others offered saps and resins that were used in tool and weapon
    making.  Trees provided wood for weapons, shelters, bedding, and 
    most important of all, fuel. Heat to survive the winters and make
    life easier the rest of the year was truly a giant step forward for
    prehistoric man over hunter gathering limited to semi-tropical
    climes.
    	Trees demonstrated extreme longevity as a prehistoric man with
    an average lifespan of perhaps 25-30 years could find in a giant oak
    tree near a clan encampment a traditional sheltering and familiar
    landmark that had been a part of the clan's oral traditions for 
    tens of generations.  A landmark tree would be the natural spot for
    a clan "wedding".  An old tree that to clan members had always been
    there represented long-life, health, and fertility.
    	In a harsh Ice Age Northern European winter, bringing a fresh
    smelling pine tree or decorative holly boughs into a smoky and
    urine and fecal stained cave would certainly seem to be a great idea
    to a Cro-Magnon Martha Stewart!
    	Snows came and went, winds came and went, flowers and vegetables
    grew and died out, game was plentiful some years then was scarce, but
    the forests were always there, and the only power that could subdue the
    forest was fire.  So, fire was admired for it's strong, "magic" powers
    that leapt from the skies and was to be greatly feared yet also greatly
    revered and used.  A gift from the sky.
    	Or, at least, that's the way I'd have seen things in Bedrock!
    
    BillM

    
    I couldn't agree more, I am quite sure that trees were a major part of
    early mankind's history, and were bound to become symbols for life etc.
    The tree that early pagan religions in celtic cultures used to
    particularly 'use' is still found in many British graveyards today. I
    can't remember what it's called annoyingly, but they now believe that
    the root structure of some of those trees could be several thousand
    years old. The individual trunks live hundreds of years, but the tree
    itself can live thousands of years. Quite a thought isn't it?
    
    My interest is in whether the 'Tree of Life' symbol exists in other
    cultures' religions, outside of European backgrounds as described
    earlier. Surely there were trees in Asia and America too, but do they
    attach the same significance to them. Also, the moon and sun are surely
    very powerful images to prehistoric man, and yet they are barely
    mentioned in most 'current' religions, even symbolically.
    
    As far as kicking up dust and digressing is concerned, have no worries,
    I have a reputation for digression that many will know.
    
    Adam.

>    My interest is in whether the 'Tree of Life' symbol exists in other
>    cultures' religions, outside of European backgrounds as described
>   earlier. Surely there were trees in Asia and America too, but do they
>    attach the same significance to them.


Don't forget antipodeans - I'm sure they have trees too. 

> The tree that early pagan religions in celtic cultures used to
>    particularly 'use' is still found in many British graveyards today.

I think yew is the most common graveyard tree in this country, 
though Rowan or Mountain Ash used to be - you just don't seem to see many 
around any more.  I can vaguely drag up from the depths of my mind 
that laburnum was meant to have some significance too, or is that
just it's toxicity I'm thinking of... 

    
    Yew are right.
    
    Sorry, couldn't resist it!!!!
    
    That's the one, thanks. The toxicity thing is a good point, they
    thought that the yew tree was in graveyards to stop the cows from
    grazing there, until they found out about the pagan connection. Also,
    the pagan's used to always enter a religious site from one direction,
    so old churches have a door on that side, as well as the two they have
    for traditional Christian philosophies. After a while, once the church
    had been accepted and the pagans were beiong hunted down, the bricked
    up the 'pagan door'. Nice huh?
    
    Adam
    
    Oh and thanks for the Antipodean reminder too, anyone know about
    Asian, American or Aboriginal native religions??
    
    

    
    Re.73
    
    Adam,
    
    >Does anybody know about......native religions?
    
    Yes. You'll have to be a little more specific though.  (;^)  
    
    I'm quite familiar with the Vedic culture from India and environs, less 
    so with Native American, though there are others here who are more-than
    qualified to speak about this subject.  I know some of the Australian
    Aboriginal culture (Dreamtime), along with South American shamanism (in 
    fact I was just in a workshop a few weeks ago with a Brazilian shaman.)
    
    Cindy      

    With NA traditions, I don't believe that it was trees so much as the
    whole Earth. Some tribes or settlements of particular tribes may have
    had certain trees that were sacred. (Individual trees, not species)
    Others probably thought that the trees as a whole were sacred, as part
    of the whole Earth. each served it's purpose, such as the Birch for
    canoes, and each was thank for allowing itself to be used for whatever
    purpose it was used. There were (and still are) power spots where the
    Earth's energy is concentrated. These were and are sacred sites. Native
    peoples met and had ceremonies at these sites. In later times, churches
    and open air places of worship have been built and held on some of
    these sites without the Europeans even being aware that they were in
    energy spots. Certainly specific trees that grew in the center of these
    sites were deemed sacred by the Natives. Whether or not the Europeans
    removed these trees during building and clearing would have to checked
    at each site. 
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    I always thought the willow was the tree of preference for as grave
    yards. As they tend to have extensive root systems which grow through
    the bodies anchoring them firmly in the ground so they may never return
    to the surface.

    Jamie.

    I always thought I would like to be cremated and your last note
    confirms it Jamie!  ;^)

    Wow, this conference subject ended abruptly!  Did we get too far off
    the track, or are all the verdicts in?
    
    Pat

    
    	Mighty quiet in here, today. The place feels haunted. Is this
    a holiday in Europe, Jamie?  Adam?
    BillM

    
    Recently I purchased a book by Scott Cunningham entitled, "Hawaiian
    Religion and Magic" which is quite good, and in the back of the book
    were advertised the following books also by Scott:
    
    	"Wicca - A Guide For The Solitary Practitioner"
    	"Living Wicca - More For The Solitary Practitioner"
    	"Earth, Air, Fire and Water - More Techniques of Natural Magic"
    	"Encyclopedia of Magical Herbs"
    
    Have fun!  I'm definitely getting the last two.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    I have the first two on Cindy's list. Excellent knowledge for
    Solitary's and for those who might need to do a solitary working once
    in a while.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    
    For a free catalog of these and other books:
    
    	Llewellyn Publications
    	P.O. Box 64383-K199
    	St. Paul, MN  55164-0383

Hi,

I have a question...I seem to remember being in Salem, MA a few years ago 
and picking up a pamphlet someone was handing out--perhaps in Laurie 
Cabot's shop?--that gave a brief overview of what witches are all about, 
in contrast to the usual stereotypical views.  As I recall it semed like a 
succinct, useful way to raise people's consciousness about both the history and 
current practices of witches.  But I can't find it...does anyone know where 
I might get another?  I'd go up to Salem again and ask around, but I'm not 
sure when I'm going to be able to.  Is there a group I could call?

Thanks a lot,

Dorian

    ...forgot to mention, reading over this string I really appreciated all
    the book citations! I have a few I can add after I check titles/authors
    at home.
    
    One I can recall now - Witches, by Erica Jong - a really beautiful
    book, but hard to find. I ended up ordering a copy from Wordsworth in 
    Cambridge MA.
    
    BTW, The Devil in the Shape of a Woman is by Carol Karlsen.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dorian
    

Here are a few more book titles:

Rae Beth, *The Wiccan Path:  A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner* (The 
Crossing Press, US ed. 1995).  It's written in the form of letters to two 
friends considering becoming witches.  Rae Beth, who is English, "has been 
studying Pagan traditions and women's mysteries for many years.  Her work 
as an astrologer, tarot consultant and feminist has converged in Goddess 
spirituality."  (from the jacket)

Marian Green, *A Witch Alone:  Thirteen Moons to Master Natural Magic* (The 
Aquarian Press, 1991).  "A practical handbook," and more - it has a lot of 
history and poetry as well.

Edain McCoy, *Witta:  An Irish Pagan Tradition* (Llewellyn Publications, 
1993).  This book focuses on the old religion in Ireland.
    
    Dorian

    re: Base note
    
    
    It depends upon the interpretation of "witches" and "demons"
    
    Blessed be,
    Serenity