Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    
    Oh yeah.....Did I forget to mention that I have gotten to the point
    where I can't stand the mention of his mother's name nor the sight of
    her?
    
    Tia

    Tia,
    
    Oh.  What a surprise.
    
    Would it help you if you kept in mind that having a wedding (not
    "getting married"; "having a wedding") is one of the seven most
    stressful things you can do in your life?
    
    							Ann B.

    I think it's your own fears coming out.
    
    Don't worry about your new mother-in-law. Let her own her own problems
    and don't let her problems become yours.
    
    Enjoy your wedding and your life.

    
    Next time you have the dream, see if you can 'freeze frame' it while
    you ask mentally what exactly the dream is trying to tell you.  You may
    be able to receive a mental message in return. If you are able to, you 
    might try this at every scene that happens, then also at the end for 
    the overall message.
    
    Beyond that, if you yourself feel at peace with marrying your boyfriend, 
    then that's the most important thing.  Others will always have their
    opinions, and you can't do much about that.
    
    Cindy

    	I've got to admit that you're dreams are anything but...Boaring!
    
    Try listening less to Pink Floyd's, The Wall
    
    ..but in all seriousness, go with your true feelings about your
    boyfriend.  Your relationship with your in-laws shouldn't determine
    sharing your life with someone. Good Luck!   BillM
    

    My boyfriend did tell me to layoff of the pork products. And yes my
    dreams and relationship are far from 'boaring' but all jokes aside...
    I am dealling with a women who has told me flat out that she thinks I
    am a slut, that I am too fat for her son, and that she will always be
    "MOMMA" so what she says goes and that I better get used to it if I
    want her son. Being of a confrontational nature myself, it is
    extrememly hard for me to let her treat me so disrespectfully and not
    say something back to her (being polite or civil does not work/i've
    tried) but I try to hold my tongue for my boyfriends sake.  However, a
    few weeks ago she and I had words and some very, very, extremely,
    extreeeeeeemely harsh words were spoken by both of us and this is when
    the dream started to pick up in frequency and the pigs got darker. Does
    anyone have anymore insight into what the hell is going on in my
    head??!!

    
    One response to her utterly abusive statements that immediately comes 
    to mind is to smile sweetly and utter, "It takes one to know one."  
    Works for me.  (;^)
    
    But more seriously - a question - when you have these confrontations 
    with this woman, does your boyfriend take your side and stand up for 
    you?  Or does he either take his mother's side or remain silent? 
    
    Cindy

    For the most part he remains silent but when we had our big blow out he
    got into an agruement with her about not showing her children and their
    mates any respect.  Her response was that she was the "MOMMA" and that
    if that was the way she wanted to be than that was just that.  She is
    not trying to compromise because she feels that she should not have to.
    My main concern ( aside from not losing control and breaking her jaw)
    has been not to put my fiance in an uncomfortable situation but that
    intention seems to have been shot straight to heck and I am worried how
    this will affect us. That is why the changes in the dream bother me so
    much.  What do black pigs mean as opposed to pink pigs? (As if any form
    of miniature biting pig is normal.)
    
    Tia

    Sometimes our dreams are to work out feelings or to give us answers.
    I think you're afraid she will ruin your wedding. Sometimes familys
    have to adjust to someone new. It might take some time for you and
    his family to accept each other. In either case weddings are very
    stressful times. She may not handle stress very well.
    
    She might be afraid of 'losing' her son. In that case she just might
    if she keeps up her behavior.

    That is just what I don't want to happen.  I think that losing her son
    is going to hurt him just as much as it hurts her thus hurting me. I
    think that we have had plenty of time to adjust to each other since I
    have been with her son for almost six years now. Actually, she has
    always been somewhat disrespectful but it did not get really bad until
    he graduated from school and moved out here with me. She expected him
    to move back home with her. So now we are not on speaking terms (which
    would mean her speaking and me listening anyway).  How do I handle this
    and avoid her losing her mind and "attacking" my wedding guests with black
    hairy man-eating pigs??  She is vengeful and childish and loves to be
    the center of attention and any social gathering will do. Especially if
    that gathering is in honor of the "super-slut" that is trying to trap
    her son.
                                                             

    	If you're going to have a big wedding and you or yours folks are
    paying for it then you deserve the peace of mind that it will not be
    disrupted by anyone, especially the groom's mom. It is his
    responsibility to inform his mother that she is welcome at the event
    only if she keeps her tensions with you repressed and behaves as the
    mother of a groom should. If she refuses his request, don't let her
    attend. if your boyfriend doesn't go to bat for you on this now, he
    won't on all the little tensions down the line. This is her big
    fight for control of your boyfriend. 
    	Furthermore, I'd suggest he designate someone on his side of the
    aisle the "designated Mom controller". (A 6 foot 250 lb uncle with a
    persusive bear hug would be ideal)
    	Good luck and keep the valium handy. We pagans avoid these
    stylized rituals with overtones of dowry, giving the bride away, and
    the bride pledging to obey her husband for just these reasons. It's
    a lot more fun to gather everyone together and celebrate with gusto
    2 souls joining to face life's struggles together! No church, no
    priest, no aisles, no rules!!   BillM

    I can understand why.  I did not want to have a formal "Victorian"
    wedding anyway.  I thought it would be better to elope and come back
    and throw a big blow-out party however mothers on both sides did not
    agree with that little plan. I just may do it anyway. And you can bet
    that I will not promise to "obey" anyone because I'd be lying. I had
    briefly considered a Wiccan ceremony however I came to the conclusion
    that it would not go over too well with our African-American, extremely
    Christian, Pentecostal families.  Lately I have been thinking that the
    best idea would be my first one...that is to elope however I do not now
    how well I would be able to deal with the resentments from our
    families.
    
    Tia  

    
    Well, sounds like they're going to make your life miserable whether you
    have the wedding or elope, so maybe the dream is warning you to forget
    about the wedding altogether (since that's where the pigs are, along
    with the rest of the stuff) and just go off by yourselves.  Either way, 
    you're not going to win (the ol' Rock vs. Hard Place analogy), so it 
    seems that it would be less trouble to elope and then figure it out.
    
    Of course they're not going to agree with you...they want control of
    you and your spouse-to-be, and what better way than to dictate to you
    everything - especially the day you begin your lives together - from 
    the start.  The only way you're going to take control of your own lives 
    is to start now and rip the reins from them starting with your wedding.
    Whether that means 'doing the ceremony your way' or outright eloping
    altogether is up to you, but it's imperative you take it out of their
    hands now, and put it firmly in your own.
    
    Given what you've written up to now, it appears that you'll either hear 
    about 'you bad horrible people eloping (and usurping our chance to make 
    your wedding day a living hell)', or if you do go through with the 
    wedding their way, chances are they'll never be satisfied anyway, and 
    you'll hear about that for the rest of your lives too.  
    
    If you do elope and they start to whine, then you could go back and tell 
    them that because of their Insane Childish Behavior they were making you 
    so absolutely positively ***crazy***, that it's *their* fault for driving 
    the two of you to such extremes and that you had no other option than
    to do what you did...you know, when they harass you, then just throw it
    all back on them and maybe (just maybe) act as a mirror for their own 
    behavior. They probably won't get it, but at least you can use it to your 
    advantage nonetheless.
    
    Your wedding day is *supposed* to be one of the most wonderful days of
    your entire life.  If you keep this overriding idea in mind from this
    moment onward, then your decisions as to what to do on that day may
    become far more clear.  If keeping them both away from you on that day
    will achieve this goal, then by all means DO IT.  You're not going to
    get another chance.  Hopefully you will only get married once, and this
    is it.
    
    Cindy

    You are right. In fact you have all given me some very good advice
    (including the pork related comments). I guess I have a lot of thinking
    to do. I can just see so many different out comes and the only one that
    is good is if his mother gets some therapy.  All jokes aside, her
    entire family thinks that she has some mental/emotional problems but
    they don't want to do anything about it.  They just use it as an excuse
    to dismiss her behavior but she has become more and more prone to
    violence ( she gave her twenty-eight year old daughter a beating). She
    is getting worse and worse and her anger seems to be focusing more and
    more on me.  I am not the type of person to just take verbal abuse let
    alone the physical stuff and I worry that if we elope she will become
    violent with me and cause me serious harm or force me to cause her
    serious harm.  Her children don't want to believe that she is that bad
    but their spouses and I are all to the point where we don't even want
    to visit anymore because we know that something is bound to happen. Any
    advice on how to separate yourself from your husbands mother without
    causing him to be hurt or resentful?

    
    Something interesting came to me last night about your situation, and
    perhaps it's something you might consider.
    
    You can elope without telling anyone, and take a long weekend to go on
    a honeymoon to some really romantic inn or something.  That can be your
    special wedding together, and nobody has to know.  It can take place a
    month or so before the ceremony with the respective families.
    
    Then you can also go ahead with the wedding ceremony and reception and
    endure anything that happens because you'll already have a wonderful
    memory of your 'real' wedding that the two of you created.  At that
    point, you may be actually able to look at your spouse with a knowing 
    smile because it will no longer matter whether they make the day 
    absolutely miserable. No matter what happens, they can never go back 
    and ruin the 'real' wedding that you already experienced together.
    
    At least in one European country that I know of, there are two steps 
    to go through with the wedding - one to have it legalized by going to 
    the town hall (just the two of you), and then on to the church of one's 
    choice to be married in front of God, relatives, and friends.  I believe 
    these actually can take place on different days, though someone from 
    Europe may wish to confirm this (believe it's Holland).  So it's actually 
    a tradition there that we don't really have here.
    
    It would be a real shame to go through the rest of your life without
    having a wonderful wedding day to look back upon and cherish, and
    instead when you pull out the wedding album, all you feel like doing is
    cringing.  It's something that will stay with you all of your life...
    long after the people who are trying to force you to do what they want 
    you to, have departed from this plane.   
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Given that there may be mental illness involved, it would indeed 
        probably be unwise to elope and tell her.  That she has beaten 
        another person is cause enough for choosing to stay away from her 
        - not to mention that such actions are illegal in this country - 
        and hopefully if you voice your concern to your boyfriend about 
        this, then he will be able to understand your decision. If not,
        then there is serious denial going on about her condition, and you
        may want to consider distancing yourself from the entire situation
        until it becomes more sane.

    I was going to suggest the exact same thing! Years ago, a friend
    of mine was in a situation where the families wanted a wedding but
    there was all kinds of control-oriented behavior coming out.
    So Chris and Don eloped, had a nice weekend together, came back
    home and each went to their respective pre-wedding living abodes.
    
    The only one they told was the minister, who very discreetly
    changed the wording of the ceremony to say, for example, 'will
    you continue to love, honor...' No one noticed. And just as the
    previous noter said, they spent the ceremony and the reception 
    woth little smirks on their faces whenever they looked at each
    other, and nothing bothered them. They had had their wedding.
    
    On a different note, I was watching a recent 'Dateline', and then saw
    the same subject in that next weekend's Boston Globe. Some woman
    had written a book about what made a successful marriage. I do
    remember that one of the top things on the 'list' was separation
    from the parents, for both the bride and the groom. Refusal or
    unwillingness on the part of either the husband or wife to enforce
    the separation from the parents' control or influence was considered
    a key ingredient for disaster down the road. The doctor suggested
    that couples think in terms of me, you, and US. The 'us' is the
    sacred part that always comes first.
    
    Now, taking this and adding it to the suggestion for a private,
    romantic elopement may work wonders. Since you and your fiance
    will already be husband and wife by time of the public wedding,
    your husband may find a renewed strength and confidence in himself
    to become a more active player in controlling his mother. While
    I have never been in the situation you find yourself in now, I
    do know firsthand what control freaks mothers can be. To this
    day, and I am 40+, I still find occasions to smile sweetly and
    tell my own mother, 'thanks, I appreciate your input, and I will
    let you know what decision I make.' End of discussion. Took me a
    long time to figure out that maybe, sometimes, she just wanted to
    be heard -- in other words, still needed.
    
    Have a wonderful wedding!
    griz 
    

    Guess what???? Due to circumstances beyond our control my fiance and I
    are moving back to Michigan, and will probably end up living less than
    an hour away from his mother.  I feel like I could just pass out.  In
    fact a coma may be rather soothing right now.  
    
    Tia
    

>>and will probably end up living less than an hour away from his mother.


	Then it sounds like it's about time you found a way to make
	peace with her.

	When you marry a man, you marry his family -- that includes his
	mother.  

	You can either choose to be a victim of this woman (which is 
	what seems to be happening now), or you can throw your ego out
	the door and talk with her woman to woman.  The two of you have
	something in common -- wanting the best for her son (and your 	
	husband-to-be).

	Whatever you tell your subconcious, it believes, and it, in 
	turn, manifests that into the world.  YOUR ARE THE ONE that's 
	responsible for making this relationship with her work (because
	you're the one walking into the family).  

	I hate to be so brutally honest about this, but if you're not willing 
	to take responsibility for forming a healthy relationship with his 
	mother, then you have no business making the commitment of marriage to 
	this man.  There's a LOT at stake here for you:  your marriage and the
	future of your children (if you decide to have any).

	Is the anguish you're manifesting and perpetuating in this relationship 
	with this woman worth the potentially lethal COST it will have 
	to your future?  

	You have a power within you as a woman to make amazing things happen
	if you take our ego out of the way and just be honest and bring your 
	heart.  Why don't you decide to do what is going to work long-term 
	for your marriage to be successful??

	Very concerned,

	Kath

	

	

	Thanks, Bill.

	Yes, I have been reading the whole string, and yes I have been 
	paying attention.

	Quiting isn't an option when you're making the choice to be 
	married to someone.  No one ever said it was always going to 
	be easy.  

	You said something very interesting:

>> ...that getting along with her future mother-in-law is her sole 
>>    responsibility

	Taking responsibility for a relationship and giving your all to 
	make it work because there's something bigger to gain, doesn't
	alleviate the other person from their responsibility.  So, it's
	interesting that you interpreted it that way.

	When we give 50%, we only get 50%.  When we give 0%, we get 0%.  Only 
	when we put our heart and soul into giving our best to something
	can we really hope to reap the benefits we deserve.  

	Tia will get what she gives to her relationship with her mother-in-law
	to be.  If Tia knows she's not a slut then what's the problem?  Love
	the woman anyway.  The truth is, it sounds like there's something
	very very painful in this woman's life and it's showing up in her
	relationship with Tia.  She needs someone to love her anyway.

	Tia, I'll practically GUARENTEE you that this woman's anger toward
	you isn't personal toward you at all.  The signs are ALL there.  
	Ignoring the the problem this woman has is NOT going to make it
	go away.  It's going to compound it.

	It sounds like his entire family is absolving themselves of any 
	responsibility in helping this woman.  "Here, let's just hide from
	it and hope it goes away."  I totally am questioning what has happened 
	in her marriage, in her past, that has left her feeling so alone and so 	
	hateful of herself.  

	It sounds like this is a potentially LETHAL situation, which ignoring
	it and running away from it is going to push it even further to 
	explode and the ramifications of that are huge (do you read the 
	newspapers)?

	Ignoring it, and running away from it is not the answer.

	I just have to say how I feel, Bill.  Life is too precious and 
	family is too precious and the cost too huge to have me sit here
	and not say something about it.

	Tia, your dream says something that is HUGELY important to your
	future.  Please, don't ignore it or try to hide from what it's 
	saying.

	kath

    Kath, I truly understand what you are saying (and Bill I really thank
    you for your support) but the truth is that I am tired of giving.  It
    is not as if I just met this man and I'm trying to adjust to a new
    family. I've know these people for YEARS!!! And I have been trying to
    reach out to this woman all of that time. Yes she has had some bad
    things happen to her but so have I...Life's a Bitch. And so is she when
    she is in one of her moods.  The truth is that I very rarely play the
    role of the victim. The only reason it is happening now is because I am
    worried about my fiance ( but since writing this note that has become
    less of a consideration for me). Yes.. his family does seem to be
    hiding from it but she is there mother...not mine. I will not except
    sole responsibility for making this relationship work because since she
    is his mother she should try also if not just to make him comfortable.
    I have a life and problems of my own ( my sister is a drug addict and
    she has three kids that I may end up taking on because the state took
    them from her) and I am tired of giving 100% while she gives 15% (and
    thats on a good day). I think she needs the help of a psycologist and
    that is something that I can't do for her.  And this may sound very
    harsh but I am getting to the point where I don't care about her
    getting help at all.  It's very hard to care about someone who abuses
    people and only thinks of herself.  My heart (and my ego) are only so
    big and I have too many other stresses in my life to make healing her
    my pet project.  If anything she should be doing that...it's not like
    she has anything else to do (unless you consider it extremely important
    to catch all of the daily talk shows in which case you could say that
    she has been working very hard.) This is not the most loving attitude,I
    know, but I can't deny it anymore ...it is how I feel. My only concern
    is my fiance and although I love him, I have to love me too. Until his
    mother decideds to make a change, dealing with her would be abusing
    myself and I believe that you NEVER intentionally hurt someone that you
    love.  And I'll be damned if I keep doing it!
    
    Tia

    some people believe dreams are interactions with others' thoughts, 
    whether the others are alive or not.  that's probably true, but i 
    wouldn't rule out nightmares coming from something we ate.
    
    the thought-forms, people, plots, in your dreams may be as much you as
    they are the items they represent; that is, the "bitch" in yourself, the
    "protestor of weddings" in yourself, etc.
    
    
    momma sounds like a ham.  sounds like she always needs to be right,
    because someone had abused her for being wrong.  sounds like she will
    continue to blame others for everything she, herself, has felt guilty 
    doing or thinking.    
    
    i think you said something about moving near her due to reasons beyond
    your control.  you have the power to control anything.  

    
    	That's the attitude, Tia! Just concentrate on your relationship
    with your future husband and how he defends you from MOMMA. I hope
    you've also given him consideration of the possibility of having to
    take in your sister's children. To become an instant stepuncle to
    these kids will be a big change in his life too. They're your
    family, but moving them into a newly married and newly relocated
    household is a mutual marriage decision.
    	MOMMA watches all the talk shows, huh? You guys want to try to work
    this all out on Jenny Jones or Rikki Lake? Bad idea, I don't want to
    trivialize this situation. Just let everyong know that your household
    comes before "family peace" and MOMMA's problems should be solved by
    her taking on some self-responsibility.  BillM

    Actually I once suggested that aur situation would be a great Oprah
    topic but my fiance was quick to let me know that he would NEVER do it.
    As far as having the power to control everything...I woke up and
    smelled the coffee brewing along time ago on that one. Yes I do have
    the power to make the decisions that effect my life but others also
    have some influence to.  The fact is I can not control the state
    government and if they say that I have to be a resident of the state to
    keep my niece and nephews from becoming wards of the court then I have
    the control to make the decision as to how I will handle the situation.
    I can move back there, get the kids, but I'm living near MOMMA or I can
    say forget it, have a nervous breakdown from the guilt of abandoning my
    family, but not have to live near MOMMA. Neither choice seems very
    appealling to me.
    
    Oh yeah...my fiance was in on the possibility from the start and
    actually wants to stay home with them if we do adopt them.  I think the
    stay-at-home part of his attitude comes from not ever having to stay
    home alone and take care of a five-year-old, a four-year-old, and a
    nine-month-old but his heart is in the right place.

    Kath,
    
    I just re-read your first note and I am somewhat confused. Since MOMMA
    has made it clear that things must go her way in order for her to
    behave like a normal adult I would have to repress my thoughts,
    feelings, and self-respect so as not to say or do something that she
    does not like.  How can repress how I am possibly have a good effect on
    my relationship? If anything I would expect to become more resentful of her
    attitude and of my fiance for letting such behavior continue. I truly
    believe that if I had not stood up to her ( and if my fiance had not
    also) that would not be togather today. Please explain what you ment.
    
    Tia

    
    I think that the core of Tia's problem is not the matter of adapting
    to a new family, or creating a relationship with a new relative.  The
    central part of this problem is the issue of dealing with an abuser.
    
    Her boyfriend's mother is clearly both physically and emotionally
    abusive, and her family is unwilling to acknowledge it.  Marrying
    a man in this situation is not joing a family -- it's moving into a
    war zone.  This woman has declared emphatically that she owns and
    controls her son, and that she will do all she can to destroy his
    marriage.  Telling Tia that she is the person responsible for her
    relationship with this woman, and that she will get back what she gives
    indicates a fundamental (and fortunate) ignorance of abusive people and
    how they operate.  Tia is only one of the people responsible for her
    relations with her husband-to-be's family -- the others are her
    boyfriend, his mother and the other family members!  They must also
    contribute.
    
    Tia, I would suggest as strongly as possible that, BEFORE you marry,
    you talk to someone in the mental health field who specializes in
    working with abusers.  And take your boyfriend with you.  It is
    extremely difficult for a person who grew up under the control of an
    abusive parent to cope with them.  He and you will need to get advice about
    the best ways to handle his mother, and lay out a plan of action before
    the marriage.  (I can tell you from experience that setting absolute
    limits on an abuser's behavior, and enforcing them to the letter, will work
    but you must both be committed to doing it, and you must always back 
    each other up.)  His family will also need to understand what you are
    doing and why.  
    
    If you takcle this problem and deal with it before you marry, I think
    you will have the wedding day you want -- and the marriage.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Mary
      
     
    
    
    

    Hey everyone,
    
    I am moving back to Michigan on the 27th of this month. I really
    appreciate all of your opinions and I will consider them all in dealing
    with the "MOMMA". I wish you all well.
    
    Tia