Conference hydra::dejavu

    Maybe he's going to have a Quantum Leap.....:)  just kidding.....
    
    :), danielle

    >Although I'm curious as to what a medical doctor might tell him. 

    It could be a form of epilepsy, temporal lobe -  also known as
    psychomotor epilepsy, produces symptoms which include those you
    describe. Perhaps a visit to the doctor is called for.

    Jamie.

    re: .2,
    	That's true, it could possibly be a form of epilepsy.
    	Temporal lobe abnormalities have sometimes
    	been implicated in this sort of experience.  Researchers
    	in the past have been able to sometimes trigger out of body
    	type experiences, and reportedly even experiences distinctly 
    	resembling popularly reported _alien_abductions_ by electromagnetic 
    	stimulation of the brain in this general area.
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd
    

    Theey've been able to explain even alien abductions?  Interesting...an
    awful lot of people in the world with brain-wave activity that is
    shorted out...
    
    funny, ever since my anyeurism I've had an abnormal eeg, but nothing
    ever happened to me...
    
    it would be nice to explain it away with medicine, but that aside, what
    supernatural cause could be at the bottom of it?
    
    I'm curious what your friend's doctor tells him?
    
    

>    Theey've been able to explain even alien abductions?  Interesting...an
>    awful lot of people in the world with brain-wave activity that is
>    shorted out...
    
    Maybe, but that's not anything like what I said.  First of all, 
    electro-chemical activity in the brain isn't at all constant, it is always 
    fluctuating.  It fluctuates with mood, thought patterns, external
    stimuli, and so on, in ways that no gross surface measurement (like an
    EEG) can yet accurately track.   Your EEG abnormalities don't
    necessarily have anything at all to do with the kinds of abnormalities
    we were referring to.   
    
    'Brain-wave activity shorted out' implies to me some kind of massive
    change, like seen in grand mal epilepsy, which is not neccessarily
    the case.   Small fluctuations are often confined to a small region
    of the brain and may have very limited effects.  The regions of
    activity in the brain are distinguished chemically even more finely than
    they are electrically, which is largely responsible for this
    locallization of effect (ordinarily).
    
    Secondly, just because an experience could be triggered by temporal lobe 
    storms or externally by electrical means doesn't tell us all that much
    about the significance or the experience itself or other causal
    factors.  The point that Jamie made, and I agreed with, was that
    it is known to potentially be symptomatic of epileptic or other 
    kinds of abnormalities, at least in some cases.  It's not a 
    'medical explanation,' it's a medical *description*, there's a big
    difference !  Neurologists don't in their professional capacity
    don't generally investigate or care about extraterrestrial activities.
    
    Many psychological models of alien abduction nowadays tend to avoid 
    focusing on whether people are actually being abducted, which can't yet 
    be determined for certain in most cases, take them at face value,
    and focus on the effects and precursors of the experience itself.
    These seem to have some significance.  
    
    There are some tentative background and personality commonalities between 
    people who experience certain kinds of extraordinary experience, 
    including alien abduction.  There might turn out to be neural 
    commonalities as well.  Who knows.
    
    If that turns out to be true, it still doesn't completely rule out that 
    extraterrestrials are involved , and simply favoring people with those 
    commonalities for some reason.  But it does tell us more about the
    effect that the experience has on people.
    
    What's a supernatural cause, anyway ?
    Are extraterrestrials somehow intrinsically unnatural ?  
    I wonder if they'd agree with that.  ;-)
    
    					kind regards,
    
    					todd

    todd:
    
    If the activities fluctuate to the poin tthat no gross surface
    measurement can track it accurately, how is it that doctors associate
    it with epilepsy?  And why don't they investigate non-scientific
    reasons for it?  Do they search for a medical symptom, whatever,
    because they don't want to think what the other would mean?
    
    You asked if extraterrestrials were unnatural.  Well, if you think of
    it in the sense that it is not somethign that occurs naturally to
    humans in general, then I'd say so.  A natural occurrence, at least to
    me, is simply something that is normal to happen to humans, like losing
    your baby teeth.  Whether you are Russian, Chinese, whatever, whether
    you are black, white, oriental, whatever, there are certain things that
    are normal.
    
    I think things that happen to individuals outside that "norm" are
    unnatural, but not necessarily ABnormal or bad.  
    
    I think they fall under the catagory of phenomenon because they are
    difficult for certain people to conceptualize or explain.
    
    I was trying to make a point that there are an awful lot of people
    (since there are so many who have claimed to be abducted) who have some
    sort of common "difference" (I won't say abnormality, although most
    people don't seem to have it) in their brains that may either cause
    them to think they were abducted, or that would attract the aliens were
    it to be real.
    
    My jury is still out on the idea.  I don't believe or disbelieve it...
    I just want proof more than hypnosis of someone...
    
    if there were medical implications that brain activity and these
    incidents are related, then that would allude to disproof...
    
    

From:  "The Kundalini Experience", by Lee Sannella, M.D., p.101

Nonphysiological Phenomena

Out-Of-Body Experiences

Out-of-body experiences (OBEs) involve the subjective feeling of leaving
the physical body either as a formless conscious identity or in the form
of a supraphysical counterpart ("etheric double" or "astral body," etc.). 

This phenomenon has come to the attention of the medical establishment 
through the large number of patients who have reported having had this 
experience during anesthesia or while being otherwise unconscious.  
Medicine treats out-of-body experiences as hallucinations or delusions.

Attempts have been made, however, by parapsychologists to establish the 
objective nature of these experiences.  There is some evidence that OBEs 
can be at least partially objective.  This calls in question the current 
Western model of the relationship between brain and consciousness.  As in 
single seeing, the language used to describe OBEs is so typical that we 
may think of these experiences as distinct from other states of divided 
consciousness.

There are many anecdotal accounts of this experience.  An interesting one 
is that given by Joyce MacIver (1983).  She has had numerous OBEs, all 
triggered by her Sufi practice of relaxation and meditation.  Of special 
interest is her following observation:

	"Soon, usually in a matter of five or ten minutes...I would 
	 see the great banks of clouds sweep down and separate, roll 
	 back and then sweep down again in different formations and 
 	 colors and separate again, always leaving the path at the 
	 center...  Simutaneously a feeling of warmth and movement 
	 would start up from the bottom of my spinal column, rising, 
	 growing warmer as it moved up, on up toward my shoulder 
	 blades, accompanied by flashes of heat coming up over my 
	 skin - until arms, legs, hands and back, and lately abdomen, 
	 sometimes felt uncomfortably warm.  The pusher, as I called 
	 this spinal crawler, seemed to meet with some block before 
	 it could get to my neck.  No matter.  Each time I did the 
	 exercise it seemed to strike out harder and harder and 
	 lately, toward the end of the sixth week, I noticed flashes 
	 of light, seemingly in the room and near my body, beyond the 
	 Private Theatre, appearing in my closed eyelids." (pp. 87-88)

As I wrote in an appendix to Joyce MacIver's book, "It is very clear to 
me that her journeys into the hidden levels of reality had a positive, 
healing and revelatory effect on her life...This conclusion is frequently 
countered with the argument that such experiences are only possible if 
you believe in them.  To this argument I answer yes, such experiences are 
only possible if you believe in them and may in fact be created by that 
belief.  This answer does not diminish the value of the experience, 
instead it leaves open and unrestricted our definition of human 
potential and provides unrestricted horizons for the depth and scope of 
spiritual growth."

For further data on the OBE phenomenon the works by Robert Monroe, Sylvan 
J. Muldoon, and Robert Crookall can be recommended.

    
    Re.0
    
    You might also look at topic 1561 in this conference.
    
    Cindy

    The question was asked what a medical doctor would make of the symptoms
    described in the basenote. I checked up and they fall within the
    symptoms of one form of epilepsy. I did not state that people who claim
    to have been abducted by aliens had epilepsy, nor for that matter did
    the symptoms described in the basenote refer to abduction by aliens.

    So I do not know where that rathole came from, nor can I see any
    relevance to it and the questions asked in the basenote. I would
    therefore suggest that another topic be started to discuss this point.

    Jamie.

    re: .9,
    	Sorry, the rathole came from my response.  I obviously added more
    	confusion than clarity !  The summary is that paresthesias
    	and other odd sensory experience may or may not also be indicative
    	of a medical pathology, but in any case there are very frequently 
    	_physiological_correlates_, whether they represent illness or not,
        contrary to what radical mind-body dualists
    	and supernaturalists would have us believe.   And the correlates
    	are themselves sometimes very useful to know about.
    
    	The alien abduction thing was just a very loosely connected piece of 
    	trivia I happened to remember at the time, sorry it caused confusion.	
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    Marcos,
    
    Maybe some psi got freaked out by the alien abduction thing and
    inadvertently triggered a reaction in a lot of other people... 
    but.... have you seen any evidence in (what we laughingly call)
    reality that supports the theory that this government (or any other)
    has any control over anyone's mind except in their dreams and
    research grant proposals?  I haven't... 

VAXRIO::MARCOS

>My intent was not to draw accusations nor rathole this topic. I just wanted to
>point out that "the alien abduction thing" is not so trivial as some people
>claim and apparently is spreading to alarming proportions. As to what it really
>is is anybody's guess.

    ...maybe some group psychic break developing from the extreme stress
    of living in modern society.
    
    
>"Evidence" is a very strong word but UFOS 181 has 202 references and a vast 
>bibliography. Did you read it all? 

    That's not evidence though, Marcos... we've gotten those million line
    conspiracy/alarmist notes coming over the net for years...
    
>If not here's something else. A fact.
>
>The man in question was "an Air Force veteran" from "Long Island" [home of the
>infamous project PHOENIX for mind control]. The medical examiner's autopsy of 
>the victim revealed that "pieces of metal, like the prongs of a kitchen fork, 
>were embedded, as if implanted, in a calloused hole in the skin behind his left
>ear". The man claimed that  "someone had inserted a transmitter in his head 
>and was thereafter tormenting him mentally."

    Nope... that's not a 'fact'... that's just more words on a terminal
    screen.  
    
>The implant was REAL. Who put it there is the question. 
    
   Oh come on, Marcos... how do you know the implant was real or the guy
    was real or any of that was real?
    
>We hear and hear and hear and end up trying to "arachnid" things.

    Huh?  What do spiders have to do with it?
    
    >	Article from "The Newsday Magazine", March 31, 1991 (from a 
    >	Long Island newspaper).
    >
    >	A Lone Death By The Side Of The Road - by Ed Lowe
    >
   
    Maybe Bill got into a fight with someone and got stabbed with a fork.

    Marcos,
    
    If this government knew anything at all about mind control, do you
    think they'd have used tanks and chemicals on a bunch of religious
    extremists in Waco Texas?  

         
VAXRIO::MARCOS                    
        
>I never said it was. I inserted a "but" in my statement. I meant that although
>that paper could not be taken as "evidence" (because evidence is a pretty
>strong statement) the paper had plenty of references and a vast bibliography.
>
>Did it read it all?????

    Yep... I read it... I wasn't very impressed though.
    
    I mean... they take a few simple cases of psi leakage and turn it into
    a big black evil conspiracy thing... some people make a big deal out of
    everything. 
    
>What do you thing it's needed to say that a thing is real or a fact?

    Me personally?   
    
    Well... to be honest with you... if I haven't experienced it myself
    then I probably wouldn't believe it... 
    
    Come to think of it... even if I *have* experienced it myself, I 
    probably wouldn't believe the slant that someone else puts on it.
    
    Actually... I don't believe nor disbelieve much of anything... one
    way or another...
    
>Arachnic is a psychological tendency that some people have "to tie things
>together" as a spider.

    Oh.. that's interesting... I do that..
                                             

    True enough... that's why i don't bother reading them anymore, I guess.

    
    True enough... that's probably why I don't bother reading them much 
    anymore.

    ... course... I don't disbelieve much of anything either...