Conference hydra::dejavu

    An interesting one that happens regularly to me, Jamie is apparently a
    female name in the USA.

    When this happens I find that most males are bloody condescending. They
    appear to think that, as I am female, I must be totally technically
    incompetent, to the extent that I could not figure out which end of a
    screwdriver to hold on to.

    I usually get a surprising number of sexual offers, much more than I
    get in real life.

    Were I really female I would probably be in prison for strangling a
    male.                                

    Jamie.

    It's hard for people to communicate ... regardless of gender, I think.

I am male, and have written under a female pseudonym at various times
and places to see what would happen. I can confirm what Jamie has said
about people of both sexes being condescending, but also often
sincerely more considerate. I would highly recommend, if you're female,
to try the inverse sometime for what will surely be a fascinating experience.

We shouldn't be surprised that this occurs, but we should examine
exactly what does occur, and ask ourselves why. Maybe we'll learn something.

    That would require setting up false user accounts under different
    names, wouldn't it, Mike?  You'd need system privileges or cooperation
    to do that. 

    Re .4
    
    >That would require setting up false user accounts under different
    >names, wouldn't it, Mike?  You'd need system privileges or cooperation
    >to do that. 
    
    Oh no Mary, just an account that does not link itself to the writer is
    sufficient.
    
    Sue.

    It's against corporate policy to note under an account like that, sue.

I wasn't referring to doing this on Digital's network, which would
indeed be against company policy.

    Oh... just wondered.. you guys have private network access accounts,
    don't you.  I've been meaning to sign up for one but... 

> you guys have private network access accounts,
> don't you.

Not to continue the digression, but what's a private network access account?

    An access to the usenet that is privately paid for and not through the
    company.

    Without a doubt people communicate different via written material when
    they think the author is female.  
    
    Working in sales I deal a lot with Japanese males.  I get a much
    bettter response to my letters when I sign it J. Smith instead of
    signing it Jane Smith.

    Re: .11
    
    Excellent comment and example!
    
    Now, do you think it could be possible that a guy might ALLOW people to
    think he is female, by signing his notes with a name that most of us
    are accustomed to thinking is female, while actually writing notes that
    makes "her" appear as one really tough woman.  You see, it is my
    impression that this happens, and that it is rather deceiptful for that
    person to allow people to keep thinking that they are female when they
    are in reality not.
    
    For instance, I have a good friend named Robin Rowe.  Robin is a 34
    year old male who is a software developer in the northwest.  To
    alleviate any confusion, Robin has been know to insist on everything
    being addressed to him as "Mr. Robin Rowe", because he got tired of
    people who didn't know him thinking he was a woman.
    
    I understand your experiences of getting different responses from
    Japanese men if they think you are a woman.  In THAT society, they have
    three forms of spoken grammer, male to male, female to female, and
    neutral.  It is a terrible social impropriety to speak male grammer to
    another male if you are a woman.  So there, in the spoken word, the
    differences are very distinct, and there is a big emphasis pllaced on
    being proper in your communication.
    
    Just some more thoughts on this.
    
    
    Bill

    i saw once on TV a story about a man (i think it was on current
    affairs) where he talked on the phone pretending he was a woman
    and making his voice sound like one, the thing is he was on
    one of those 900 number where dudes call and pay $4.99 a minute
    to talk to woman not knowing there talking to a man all the time.

    they asked for their money back when this was found out, but they
    did not get it either.

    \nasser

    .1

    Jamie, i had no idea you were a dude all this time !

    i thought you were a she not a he because of your name !

    one cant really know if the writer is a male of female unless
    they say so or by their name . 

    \nasser

    Why thank you Nasser, however I must confess to not being 100% male.
    (That should keep him nicely confused for a while.)

    Re other networks.

    There are several which you can privately subscribe to, I use
    CompuServe myself, like this network it had "forums" or notefiles.

    Also present on networks are role playing games, Multi User Dungeons or
    MUDs. In there you may choose your character's attributes, one of which
    is gender. Again I notice that males are condescending to what appears
    to be female players. Yup I'm one of the nasty ones who plays several
    characters some of which are female. You can get almost any male to
    assist you if he thinks you are a female and you are prepared to
    inflate his ego a bit.

    Now as to people noting and deliberately impersonating a female, I doubt
    if there is much of that done, outside the occasional joke. 

    For the record I have had a total of three males make a serious effort
    to chat me up because they perceived that I was a female from my notes.
    Which is strange as I never thought my noting style was feminine or even
    ladylike. One got as far as phoning me on the DTN, as I half expected
    it was him I answered using my lower register, poor lad nearly died.

    Jamie.
                                             

    FWIW it's not against PP&P to use an account such as that Sue used in a
    previous note. The policy insists that the individual behind the
    account be identifiable. A simple mail to the system manager can easily
    accomplish that.
    
    An interesting topic Bill, it's nice to see you back here after all
    this time. I find the interactions between men and men, men and women,
    and women and women fascinating. Yes, I believe you're right, people do
    jump to conclusions, and they do indeed behave differently according to
    the gender of the person to whom they are speaking. I'm somewhat
    curious as to what this has to do with the "charter" of DEJAVU.
    
    Laurie.

    Re .6
    
    Very well, chastised I shall return to my read only status.
    
    Sue

    re: <<< Note 1780.17 by HLFS00::NICE_MON_LOG >>>
    
    	Well, at least you're a NICE Mon Log.  We've had some nasty 
    	ones in the past, eh ?  
    
    	s'Gotta be some local statute against impersonating a network
    	protocol, though.  :-)
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd

    I wasn't refering to you personally, Sue.  

    I don't believe it! Someone got their fur ruffled in here and neither
    Laurie or I are to blame.

    Jamie.

    Jamie, you must be slipping! ;-)
    
    Don't ever stop though. I love reading your notes. Even the
    controversial ones. I actually agree with you most of the time. I just
    can't argue points as well as you.
    
    Love,
    
    Y

    
    Given that names like Jamie and Laurie are given to males in Scotland
    and certain other British territories, and that these names are also
    given to females in the U.S.A., American noters in this and other 
    notesfiles may (have) become confused. But names like Pat, Chris, 
    Meredith, and Robin can elicit the same confused response. 
    
    For those of you outside the U.S., there's currently a running skit on
    a TV humour show, "Saturday Night Live", whose character, Pat, is both
    visually and verbally androgynous. The humour comes in both the
    confusion of those around her/him, and their attempts to discover Pat's
    gender. Pat makes many people on and off the show uneasy, I hear.
    
    I've been interested for some time in the ways in which cultural
    definitions - and stereotypes - are manifested in the written word.
    What makes a writer's style masculine or feminine? And how do novelists
    successfully convey gender in first-person narratives of characters who
    don't share their gender? Writers speak of accessing experiences with
    women, or sometimes of callling forth the feminine aspects of their own
    psyches, but when one thinks of men who have created women in
    literature and given them voice, what has made those characters
    believably, plausibly women? There's a desultory discussion of this topic
    currently underway in the BOOKS notesfile.
    
    Obviously, I'm not even addressing sexual preference here, which may in
    some people's minds add another set of nuances to be perceived in 
    written communication. Although for one immediate example, I must say 
    that I would be hard-pressed to infer your sexual orientation from your
    writing style, Jamie. And I'd be interested in seeing a communication 
    (other than an overt statement of gender made to confuse an opponent) that
    you'd use in a game to persuade another player that you were a
    defenseless female (this term is my distillation of your description.) 
    
    A fascinating subject...
    
    
    gloria 

    .-1

    ok, i believed that Jamie was a dude, but no way hossay you mean
    that Laurie is a dude too !?

    is this true? because Laurie lives in Scotland with this name she is
    actually then a he not a she ?

    i think if i go and live in Scotland i'll become a very confused dude.

    \nasser

    
    Oops - left out a phrase in the third paragraph, which should read
    "cultural definitions - and stereotypes - of gender and sexuality..."
    
    
    Sorry...
    gb

    Sorry Nasser but Laurie is 100% male and the father of three.

    Re .22

    As I said in the role playing games you can choose all your character's
    attributes, within the limitations of the game, amongst these are your
    physical appearance as well as your gender. So if you wish to look like
    a slim young female, or a large hairy male, the choice is yours and what
    you choose is what all the other players see. BTW they are not your
    opponents.

    Now, as usual, simple observation tells you a lot about your fellow
    players. Those who do not have English as their first language are
    easily spotted. Americans and British can quickly separated by the
    difference in spelling, mind you if you say to someone, "Oh you're an
    American/British!" they always seem surprised. But working out the
    gender of the person controlling the character is sometimes much more
    difficult.

    For some strange reason male faking female in much more common that the
    other way round. It is also much easier to fool someone of you own
    gender than fool someone of the gender that you are playing. However if
    you really pay attention you can spot the fakes most times.

    Now to get a male player to assist you if he sees you as a female is
    really childishly simple. You simply stroke his ego, appear to be at a
    loss, bow to his superior knowledge, praise his every move and he is
    eating out of your hand. Makes you ashamed to be male really.

    Jamie.

    RE: .23
    
    Nasser, I do not hail from Scotland, nor I believe do any of my
    antecedents. I am English, and here in England Laurie is more commonly
    a boy's name than a girl's. It's the dimunitive of Laurence, as is
    Larry. Since Laurence has two spellings, the other being Lawrence,
    Laurie can also be spelt Lawrie, but this is more rare. Other common
    diminutives include Lou, Loz, Lozzer, and Loll.
    
    Laurie.

  Re .-1

>   Laurie can also be spelt Lawrie, but this is more rare. Other common
>   diminutives include Lou, Loz, Lozzer, and Loll.

  Not forgetting the alternative spelling "Pedantic_argumentative_git" ... :-)

  Meanwhile, back on the topic, I'd also agree with the previous comments
  as a result of getting some very interesting comments aimed at "Frankie"
  not to mention a completely different form letter from the same bank when
  it was addressed to Mrs. F. Bell rather than Mr.. 

  With regard to Jamie's comment about being easier to fool the same sex than
  the 'impersonated' one, I think most of that depends on the skill of the
  impersonator [whether verbal, literate or visual] in not raising any suspicion
  in the mind of the 'victim'.

  Frank

    How come you guys learned how these little 'female' tricks and some of
    us females never mastered them?  Hardly seems fair to me... :-)

    By being observant Mary. I just watched what females did when they want
    me to do something for them and repeat the trick later. 

    Jamie.

    
    Interesting conversation going on here. I do believe that the way we
    conceptualize our thoughts for conversation is different between male
    and female. The females are the social beings where as the males are
    more of a single natured individual.
    
    
    I strong feel that with in one's conversation you can indeed find their
    gender influence in their writings and speach patterns.
    
    Males tend to get to the point and the females tend to add items to
    their conversations; for instance, THE SMALL RED CAR-  vs THE CAR.
    
    Any comments?
    

    >Males tend to get to the point and the females tend to add items to
    >their conversations; for instance, THE SMALL RED CAR-  vs THE CAR.

    iam not sure the exact circemenstances (sp?) that lead to the above
    conversation, but i think the reason the woman say the small red car 
    and the man just said the car, is that because the woman sensed what you 
    were wanted to know in your question and she tells the complete 
    information about the car ahead of time before you ask for it , but the 
    dude just sits there waiting until you ask him about the size of the car 
    and  only then he'll say "small", then you have to ask him again about 
    the color of the car, then he'll say "red", which means it will
    take more time and efforst in conversations  with this dude than it did 
    with the woman to get the same amount of informations.
    
    \nasser

    re: .31,
    
>    and the man just said the car, is that because the woman sensed what you 
>    were wanted to know in your question and she tells the complete 
>    information about the car ahead of time before you ask for it , but the 
>    dude just sits there waiting until you ask him about the size of the car 
>    and  only then he'll say "small", then you have to ask him again about 
>    the color of the car, then he'll say "red", which means it will
>    take more time and efforst in conversations  with this dude than it did 
>    with the woman to get the same amount of informations.
    
    	I think this is a legitimate style distinction, but I doubt it's
    	all that strongly gender related.   I have a similar experience
    	speaking to certain native Japanese speakers.  Those few I know often 
    	have a very 'visceral' approach to communication, and use mimimum 
    	verbage, much less than their full English vocabulary.  Even in
    	Japanese, their style is much less verbose than mine.
    
    	A lot is assumed by small gestures, grunts, eye contact, and so on.
    	As opposed to me, a typical argumentative, pedantic git.  ;-)
    	Frequently, we find each other very difficult to read and often
    	mis-answer each other's questions.
    
    	I think it has to do with the degree to which you're willing and 
    	able and tempted to try to guess the other person's intention,
    	need, and current knowledge level earlier rather than later in the 
    	conversation, and what assumptions you make, before it is fully 
    	clarified explicitly.  It's also probably somewhat situational.   
    	I think the better communicators are flexible with respect to this
    	and can change their assumptions on the fly.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    I too have been 'gender mistaken' because of my name .....and the area
    in which it was mistaken. 
    My name is Paula
    My middle name begins with A. 
    When I sign my name I sign it Paula A. Dumart. However My writing is
    far from being as clear as when I type it. The field , other than DEC,
    in which I work is ice hockey. The majority of my mail comes back as
    Paul A. They assume I'm male. I have had to recommunicate wth many
    groups to ensure that they knew I was female and I would not be taking
    my showers with the men.
    However on a few occasions...well more than a few now....I don't
    correct them as I've found I'm taken more seriosly as a male. (They
    do find out that's not a good assumption to have....)
    
    Our perceptions of gender colour our behaviour in my opinion. 

    Re .30

    >Males tend to get to the point and the females tend to add items to
    >their conversations; for instance, THE SMALL RED CAR-  vs THE CAR.
    

    Actually the terms are much more likely to be, "A small red car" vs
    "A Porsche."

    Jamie.

    Perhaps the word "car" was not a good item to pick, however it was done
    to prove a point.
    
    Females  see "things,stuff,items" differently- they notice the color
    and the size of it before the style of the car- ( basically who cares
    as long as it runs and doesn't look like a rust bucket)
    
    Males see "things,stuff, items " differently also- they notice the
    sound of the engine, style of the tires, and if has rust on it- who
    cares!
    
    
    Males and females see the world differntly- and think the way they see
    it. I'm sure they society in which you are brought up in ,ie; culture
    has alot to do with the influences of communications.
    
    In high school we were taught to write our papers then go through it
    again and refine and delete descriptive and flowery words to
    degenderise it.  Just the facts! It was one pictular course that made
    us aware of how we write and see the world- it was not done as a right
    and wrong thing but more of an awareness type exercise.
    
    can you  tell without chcecking elf if my writing is male or female?
    I find it interesting to read  peoples responses that have not signed
    their name and pick out - the "gender style".
    

    You're right about that... all cars look alike to me.. I only notice
    the color and general shape.  My husband and sons can pick out a specific 
    style, make, and model though.

             <<< Note 1780.35 by AIMHI::CHOUINARD "What if....?" >>>
    
    >can you  tell without chcecking elf if my writing is male or female?
    >I find it interesting to read  peoples responses that have not signed
    >their name and pick out - the "gender style".

    ok, i did not check you on elf, but my guess is that you are a..
    
         DUDE !!  

    did i get it right? you want'a know how i knew that? 'cause more
    i find that more dudes than not write in the second person and i felt 
    you are writing in second person, so the chances is that you are a he
    not a she and that where you blew your cover.

    \nasser
     who_wants_to_grow_up_and_be_a_detective_one_day

    OH NASSER!
    
    Don't quit your day job!!!
    
    NO I am not a dude- nor a dudette
    I am female. Some times i tend to write in the 2nd person when trying
    to argue a point of info without shoving down someones throat!!
    
    Although this may not belong here in this note it is somewhat related-
    How about "gender style" phone conversations!!??
    
    I answer an 800 line at DEC and once in a while I do not know "what" I
    am talking to- the name could be either male or female- so I have to
    listen very hard to the conversation and the way the construct their
    conversation and determine the gender from there.  Ever try to have a
    gender neutral conversation and not say - yes sir or yes mame!??
    
    Quite the challange! I have found that males are not so happy to be
    called "mame" so i usually end up saying yes sir- the females tend to
    say - oh I hav a cold- or  I have a deep voice!
    
    So far only 2 people since 5 years have gotten past me with me still
    wondering- is it him or her?? 
    
    Now back to the original conversation- Nasser now that you know the
    gender, do you see the "extra's" I tend to use? I work real hard at not
    using them so that people will not say that my views are slanted.
    I love to read peoples thoughts are try to figure out in my mind what
    they are like.
    
    cc
    

    
    	Sometimes even direct contact is not enough to determine
    	the gender of a person.  One time I was in the waiting 
	room waiting for an oil change on my car, this "person"
    	came in, sat next to me, and started chatting about some
    	local sports club, so I talked back a few times.  By what
    	I saw and heard, I determined that the "person" was a "he";
    	later on, the manager showed up, and the "person" went into
    	the manager's office to discuss some business.
    
    	Some time later, the "person" came back out and left the
    	premises, and a few minutes later the manager came back into 
    	the waiting room and said:  "Where is that girl that was sitting 
    	next to you ?." I was astounded, I could not believe my ears, 
    	the person was a "she", which goes to prove that these days, 
    	sometimes you can never tell, even by direct contact.  
    

    Ever see Pat on Saturday night live? :-)

.35 & .38

Very interesting - I also got it wrong. But for a different reason!

I would have thought using second person would have been more forceful 
and agressive if a point was being argued. However I wonder if men do tend 
to use second person more? As for the extras - is that not more dependent
on the personality and mood of the writer eg verbose, brief & matter of fact,
grouchy, happy etc rather than the gender?

Linda

    Those interested in communication styles and assertiveness might also be
    interested in Elgin's books on psycholingusitics and such,
    especially the 'verbal art of self defense' series.  She talks a lot 
    about the implicit assumptions in various communication styles, and 
    speculates a bit on the psychological dynamics behind it, and various
    social implications.  Her work focuses a bit heavily (for my taste)
    on how people are always manipulating each other by using various
    communication styles, but she does make a number of interesting
    observations and suggestions.  I believe she does in some of the
    volumes address gender-related stylistic tendencies.
    
    								todd