Conference hydra::dejavu

Ariel,

I have dealt with a lot of these kind of things over the last 3 or 4 years. 
Most of these things have origins in childhood, so there are all kinds of 
work you can do to figure them out, re-experience them and then let them go. 
These include inner-child work, 12-step work, cognitive therapy, etc. There 
is one lingering fear patern that I can't seem to get rid of yet totally and 
they tell me that past-life regression is good for this kind of thing. I 
can't seem to get rid of it nomatter what I have tried and people have 
suggested that it may be a past life thing and that I am trying to resolve 
in this lifetime what got me in the last.

Sam

    
    Ariel,
    
    The thought is not only lodged in your mind, but in your body as well.
    
    Psychology works only with the mind, however it does not help you to
    resolve the thought at the body level.  Emotions are stored/stuffed in
    your body.  Even though you work it out logically at the mind level,
    still it will remain with you until it is resolved in the body.
    
    There are many body-centered therapies available today.  Bioenergetics,
    and Hakomi are two of them.  Then there's yoga, coupled with breathing 
    exercises and eventual meditation. 
    
    These may not get at the *exact* thought you want to resolve, however
    as you continue to use yoga or other body-centered therapies to
    consciously work through the body, then you will notice that your
    overall outlook on life to be significantly more bright and you will
    begin to have more control of your thoughts vs. your throughts
    controlling you.  
    
    Essentially, tight parts in your body are places you are resisting or
    holding tension.  As you stretch the muscles slowly and gain
    flexibility, you will gain mental flexibility as well. But it takes 
    work on your part.  These things - body-centered therapies and yoga - 
    are not quick fixes.
    
    Cindy
    

     This happened when I was 7 or 8 years old.I did something BAD.But this 
     thing start to hunt me in my mid 20s untill today.Right now I'm 35 
     years old.So between age 8 and 22 I never had that those thoughts.
     But from 23 untill today,they come and go from my mind.Sometimes are
     months or years that they don't bother me,but then, when they appear
     in my mind they don't want to leave.And is not that I want to think
     about it,is just that come to my mind.
     Thank you all for your good advices.I would like to try the yoga &
     meditation but I need to know a little more about it.Like when to
     do it,if you have to be in a quiet place, by your self or play
     soft music.
     Once again thank you all.
     Ariel

                            -< Go easy on yourself >-


	You could always edit out that part.  Lazaris does a tape on
	'Editing the film'.  Play your life as a movie and edit out
	the parts you don't want.  After all, our parents do that.
	Think of the family dinners, when stories are told - they always
	get changed.

	8-)  Mikki

    I would advise against deliberately suppressing memories. It is much
    wiser to come to terms with them. 

    Jamie.

Yes, Jamie is right on this one. It is much better to work on the issue and 
resolve it than suppress it where it can eat away at you. There are all 
sorts of methods for going back and reliving and resolving experiences. I 
have been working with someone who is using Yoga and Movement bodywork to 
find blocks in my body, find the childhood experience, resolve them and go 
on. So far it has been extremly effective.

     This happened when I was 7 or 8 years old.I did something BAD.But this 

What is BAD? It sounds like religious GUILT. I had tons of stupid Catholic 
guilt for all sorts of things. Who defines these things? I think we need to 
get away from BAD and view things as learning experiences. It may be useful 
to think that you did the best you can with what you had at age 7 or 8. 
Guilt does not serve. It just makes you sick. Working the issue and 
resolving it make more sense.

Sam

    Ariel,
    
    It doesn't matter... 
    
    Everything happens for a reason.
    
    Each mistake we make is a lesson if we allow ourselves to learn from
    the experience... to benefit from it.. 
    
    ***Don't make the same mistakes twice.***
    
    Now forget about it... it's not important anymore.
    
    mary

    
    Ariel,
    
    I can't reach your node for some reason.  If you'd like me to send some
    information on yoga and meditation, send me your preferred mail address
    offline (postage not a problem).
    
    Cindy

    Ariel,
    	I had a similar experience - something BAD I did when 13, pain and
    guilt cominh back even until recently (I'm 23)... constant depressive
    "cloud" because of this. "Good" days were days when I could push that
    cloud away best. 
    	Some further events, (several traumas one after the other) threw me
    into a massive depressive period this year, and I sought help in
    anti-depressants and counselling. The counselling was excellent, after
    many weeks I could actually TELL someone my big secret, actually speak
    of the object of my fear. The relief was intense! I actually was able
    to tell a very, very close friend too... the counsellor help me to
    accept some of the things (as Cliff said) as things done in a cmpletely
    different environment to NOW, and that you can't carry blame for your
    whole life... there are plenty of help agencies available in the UK, I
    don't know about anywhere else - they are there to help, perhaps you
    could go to one of these to "test the water" and get some idea of how
    you can procede to clear this guilt.
    	I feel 300% better these days, it was really worth the effort. The
    only issue of depressive nature that remains is the loss of a lover
    from a very traumatic 2 year relationship. With hope, I can clear that
    too. You can do it as well. People want to help, so accept the offer,
    you will feel so much better.

RE: -1, What a load of crap! :-)

								- JIM CAD*

    walli-john .13,
    
    Actually your "method" has worked for me before on several occasions
    and I've recommended it to others, as well.
    
    :-)
    
    Kb

    re .13 walli-john. I HAVE to try that method. I think you have hit upon
    a fantastic new method for problem resolvment.
    
    I'll let you know how it works out for me. ::-)
    
    PJ

    Works for me!
    
    Also, sometimes I meditate in the shower and allow the water to rinse
    away the negative feelings.  Just let it go and send it down the drain.
    
    Mary

    My husband Dave taught me all of those techniques.  He's pretty smart.

    Here is a simple one that works for me, everytime a bad thought comes n
    our mind count to 10 or say the alphabet to your self, beleive me it
    works, after a while you beleive that it never happened.

Hey, could I "shave" off my bad vibes? :-)

								- JIM CAD*

    
    Re.13
    
    Oh COME ON!!!!
    
    wal (or whoever) - stop deleting your notes.  It's like watching a soap 
    opera and missing a few of the episodes.  I don't get to log in realtime 
    to catch them.
    
    [Preface 'stop' with 'Please']
    
    Cindy
             

RE: .13

Wal,

Just for the record.

My "What a load of crap" *WAS* a joke, the general concensus was that it was
an excellent (if unusual) method to try! Please don't take my mirth as snide
sarcasm - it's just mirth brought about by boring work (I leave in three 
weeks or so and have precious little to do... YYAAAAWWWWNNNN!!!!) :-)

It WAS an excellent idea, I'd like to have seen it stay for the benefit of
future noters...

								- JIM CAD*

     re.25.
     But what about when you are in bed and try to sleep and those
     thought dont let you.
     Ariel

    Learn how to meditate, Ariel... use self-hypnosis to force yourself
    into a trance.  Once you've done it a couple of times, you'll slip
    into it very easily with triggers that you've set up for yourself.
    
    Put on some music, take a hot bath.. lock the doors and learn how to
    do it... then use it when you need to.
    
    There is a certain (not danger really but)... this can become (not
    addictive really but)... anyway... I spent many years in trance.. every
    minute I could that I wasn't working or taking care of the kids... over
    ten years actually..before my focus shifted back to the waking world... 
    
    Try it if you want to.

                                 
    Ariel,
    
    You can try using a Bach Flower Remedy called White Chestnut.  It's 
    a homeopathic remedy specifically made for assisting in stopping
    thoughts.  You can buy them in quite a few health food stores.  
    They've been around for many decades and are quite safe.  If you'd like
    more information, the health food store you find them in should have
    literature available that you can read before trying them out.
    
    In addition to trying meditation, breathing in and out slowly will help
    you to break the thought loop as well.
    
    Cindy

     But what about when you are in bed and try to sleep and those
     thought dont let you.

I think you have been focusing on how to get RID of these rather than trying 
to understand what they may be telling you. I believe that these thoughts 
may be signals to you, trying to get your attention to resolve an issue in 
your life, to heal something that is not healed. Suppression and learning 
all sorts of methods to ignore then won't work. And it shouldn't work. Just 
like illnesses and dis-eases are signals that something is out of balance. 
Enter the Silence and find out what these things are trying to tell you. 
Then work with someone or yourself to resolve the issues and heal.

Sam

    Ariel,
    
    I echo Sam's wise words in .29.  It is the way I view and work with
    issues as they come up for me.  I have found it better in the long run
    to enter into the pain or distress as fully as possible, sometimes by
    myself, sometimes with the assistance of one who's trained to work with
    such issues.  
    
    Many times it is surprising the wisdom that emerges.  And so far, healing 
    has always followed.  
    
    Best wishes,
    
    Kb  

re .29

I agree that suppression of thoughts and emotions does not solve anything.
But I wonder about inappropriate thoughts and emotions - if they _are_ 
inappropriate (and this is accepted) is there any alternative to trying to
ignore them?

Linda

    Re .33

    You are comparing apples and oranges. Suppression of a memory of
    something you have done, or not done is one thing. Suppression of
    thoughts of what you would like to do is another thing altogether.

    Jamie.

Why all the descent into spiritualist methods and ways? .0 is someone asking
for practical help for a problem that they are obviously suffering deeply
from. I am sure they have tried to mentally evade the obtrusive thoughts,
my best advice would be first and foremost, get some friendly, supportive
and completely discreet counselling... with such problems help from without
(from a professional) far surpasses and is faster than striving various
odd methods of help from within.

Although, some of the methods mentioned (e.g. wal's) would be good to stave
off thoughts on a day-to-day basis. I had a similar terrible memory to get
rid of, and I am sure no amount of breathing or meditation would have done the
job as well as a caring, listening, professional ear...

								- JIM CAD*

    Aaaah,
    	I keep forgetting I am usually talking to Americans in DEJAVU,
    where you have to pay for everything! Counselling here is free! There
    are many counselling groups etc. you can go to for nothing, and can
    also be arranged via your normal GP...
    
    	RE: parents punishing, and needing attention - I agree 100%
    That really rings true with the way we hurt ourselves SO OFTEN!
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    Nothing is free here, Jim :-)

    I thought it was the land of the free.
    
    Jamie.

                                                                
    Re.36
    
    wal,
    
    To add to your note somewhat - I feel we have to be truly loved and
    accepted as ourselves first - even for a split second - before we can 
    love ourself, and then others.  That's why those who can love in this
    way can serve to heal humanity at the most fundamental level.
    
    Re.37
    
    Jim,
    
    Yes, counselling is most definitely beneficial, and in times of great
    trauma, or in a situation where there is nobody around to talk to who
    will truly understand, this is by far the best route to take.  However 
    that will only take a person so far.  The mind can only resolve at the 
    mind level.  
    
    Eventually the same emotion that is stuck in the energy body has to be 
    resolved, integrated, and released as well before there is a complete 
    healing, and that's where yoga and the breathing exercises come in.
    
    Cindy

>    I thought it was the land of the free.
    
     :-) ... it used to be, Jamie... now it's the land of the rich.

    We can accept ourselves regardless...

    
    Mary, wal
    
    Although love from the parent(s) is helpful to learn how to love
    yourself, it is NOT necessary.  This is why Support groups get started. 
    These people do not love each other, but they are willing to "be there"
    while you find a way to love yourself.  Yes, somehow we need to be
    shown the example of love so that we can know what to strive for, but
    it does not have to come from our parents.  You can find it in several
    ways; family, religion, strangers.  The crack baby can be healed of the
    damage done by it's mother, the when being determined by society.
    
    Our society is not necessarily a loving one, though many strive to make
    it so.
    
    Re: .0
    
    There is a book called "The New Mood Therapy", which deals with
    depression and negative self-images, and how to consciously modify your
    thoughts so that you have positive emotions and self-image.  The method
    is not as new as the title makes it sound (the book is about 10 years
    old?), but the methods are helpful.  I found that some of the things I
    had been doing for specific circumstances, but it helped me realize it
    could be used for all circumstances.  And it fits with the CYOR ;-)
    
    Beth

    
    wal,
    
    And if we don't get love from our parents, are we forever doomed?
    
    What is your definition of 'parents' anyway?  Purely biological?
    
    Mother Teresa, for her not being a parent, sure makes a lot of people
    on this planet feel loved...
    
    Cindy

    will they be able to accept themselves if they want to?
    
    if you have never known love, how can you love? the pattern was cast at
    birth. and the moulds are all the same.
    

Not true whatsever. Am I doomed because my parents were incapable of showing 
love??? This is a subject very close and dear to me. My parents spent most 
of my childhood beating me (even with 2 by 4's) and verbally abusing me. I 
have spent most of my life hating myself. Am I going to continue to live 
life as a victim? Not by a longshot. I went into 12-step program years ago, 
I went back in groups re-visting those memories and then healing them. And 
now I can certainly tell you that I can and do love myself. It took years of 
work but it can be done. The patern is not cast. They are only thoughts and 
thoughts can always be changed. The point of power is always in the present 
memonet. It is what I am thinking right now that will shape my tommorrow.
	It doesn't matter what my parents did then. It matters what I DO TO 
MYSELF RIGHT NOW. And that's where I have a choice on whether to love myself 
or not. It all starts with me.

Sam

    Sam,
    
    I agree!!!  Thanks for sharing your inspiring story here.
    
    Regards,
    
    Ro Reinke
    

    
    Re Sam,
    
    What a great note! A lot of people are the result of abusive, negative 
    environments and spend the rest of their lives with an "everyone owes
    me" attitude. If more people thought like you and moved on after their
    early life experiences, the world would be a much better place.
    
    
    May the Power continue to be with you,
    
    
    Marilyn

    What a great note! A lot of people are the result of abusive, negative 
    environments and spend the rest of their lives with an "everyone owes
    me" attitude. If more people thought like you and moved on after their
    early life experiences, the world would be a much better place.

Thank you for your very, very kind words and you too Ro!

The above is why I ended up splitting with the Coda movement. Don't get me 
wrong. They do great work and it was the best thing that helped me, but 
there was alot of blame and everyone owes me attitude. The world doesn't owe 
me anything. I owe myself. I didn't want to spend my life blaming and 
bashing my parents, they did the best with what they knew at the time. It 
was time for me to own my own power to change. I could be my own best friend 
- I could love myself. I have that choice.

Sam

    I agree with you too, Sam. :-)

My present girlfriend seems to have a general view of self-hate and sees
herself as a continual failure, these notes have helped me to try and talk
to her about this and to get her to realise that we all have a *choice* how
to react to any situation... I have changed myself very much over the last
year or so, mainly due to going through a personal crisis (or several!) at
one time, and through counselling learning not only to come out of that but
to rid myself of guilt for something I did years ago... I'd like to help
others, and people in DEJAVU certainly help others!

Thanks, guys. :-)

								- JIM CAD*

Re. 45 (Beth)
   There is a book called "The New Mood Therapy", which deals with
    depression and negative self-images, and how to consciously modify your
    thoughts so that you have positive emotions and self-image.  The method
    is not as new as the title makes it sound (the book is about 10 years
    old?), but the methods are helpful.  I found that some of the things I
    had been doing for specific circumstances, but it helped me realize it
    could be used for all circumstances.  And it fits with the CYOR ;-)
    
   
 That book is called Feeling Good - The New Mood Therapy.   It's written by
David Burns. (I just happened to have it on my desk when I read your note !)
Dates from 1980, would you believe.
  I'd like to second the recommendation for the book.   I have found its methods
and reasoning very helpful.   
 
Ronan

BTW the description on back says that the book describes the principles of
cognitive therapy.
Basically, 1) your thoughts determine how you feel
           2) when you recognise thinking (or cognitive) distortions and 
 consciously challenge them from a more healthy, objective perspective, your mood
will improve.

 

 That book is called Feeling Good - The New Mood Therapy.   It's written by
David Burns. (I just happened to have it on my desk when I read your note !)
Dates from 1980, would you believe.
  I'd like to second the recommendation for the book.   I have found its 
methods
and reasoning very helpful.   
 
Ronan

I'm glad someone brought up this book but this was the single biggest 
resource that I used in transforming my negative thought paterns which were 
quite destuctive a few years ago. I used the workbook instead of the book 
with much success.

Sam

    Sam,
    
    Is there an ISBN number on it?
    
    Thanks,
    
    mary

Mary,

I will look it up tonight at home and bring it in tommorrow.

Sam

    Thanks, Sam.

Mary,
  In case Sam can't find it :

 ISBN 0-451-15887-3

Ronan

    Thank you

    
    wal,
    
    Well, that's encouraging.
    
    As for Mother Teresa, I don't believe her mission is to convert people
    to her religion.  She prefers to just give love - reflect the love of
    Christ in her actions - especially with those who are dying - rather 
    than preaching it. 
    
    Cindy

    We are what we are because of our memories, both good and bad.
    
    If you remove a memory, you remove a bit of your self (psyce) and that
    makes you less than you.
    
    I flew with a Pilot, who drank a lot when not flying, he did not know
    why, and he was very unhappy.  
    
    Under Hypnosis it was found that at age of 8 or 10 his mother
    remarried, and his stepfather was an alcholic/abuser.  He used to come
    to this man(then child) and bugger him and leave him bleeding.  The 
    pilot when aware of the problem, no longer had the need to drink
    himself into a stupor to sleep.  He can find peace, now that he knows
    it was not his fault.  Memory is still there, however he is not
    bothered by it, he does not hate, he just had a bad, unhappy childhood.
    
    Dave