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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

1673.0. "Symbolism of Swastika variation" by CARTUN::BERGGREN (heart full of song) Wed May 27 1992 18:27

    A variation of the swastika is found in early native american 
    and oriental cultures.  Does anyone know what it symbolized in 
    those cultures, or how I could find out?  (Pointers to other
    topics or conferences appreciated.)
    
    Thanks very much for any information you may have.
    
    Karen
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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1673.1Good for the Navajo's?WLDWST::WARD_FRCupertino--mystical adventure?Wed May 27 1992 18:287
    re: .0 (Karen)
    
        I remember my best friend in high school (a long time ago  ;-) )
    telling me that it was a Navajo good luck charm.
    
    Frederick
    
1673.2pointerTNPUBS::PAINTERMark Russell for pres.Wed May 27 1992 19:358
    
    Karen,
    
    Check out note 421 in the VAXWRK::INDIA conference.  I'll also look
    through some of my India references at home, along with I.Bentov's 
    books, as I recall he had written something about it in one of them.
    
    Cindy
1673.3CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songWed May 27 1992 19:403
    Thanks Frederick!  I'll check out that note Cindy, thanks!
    
    Kb
1673.4RAVEN1::PINIONHard Drinking Calypso PoetThu May 28 1992 10:1116
    Hi Karen (been a while),
    
         If I remember correctly, the symbol you are talking about is the 
     reverse of what is commonly associated with Nazi Germany.  I can't
    draw very well (:-)) but I think it looks like this:
    
                    ------    |
                         |    |
                     ----|----|
                     |   |
                     |   ------
                     |
    
          ......or is it the other way?
    
                                                          Capt. Scott
1673.5CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songThu May 28 1992 13:3218
    Captain!  So good to see you again!  How's the seas been treatin' ya?
    :-)
    
    The swastika you 'drew' I believe is the symbol for luck, prosperity,
    all in all, (I obtained that information from the note Cindy pointed
    to).  The version Nazi Germany used (according to a dictionary at home)
    is the mirror image.  The upper cross bar points to the right, and the
    left arm points up, instead of down.
    
    I recently came across a deer antler and received inspiration to
    create a bell and deer toe rattle with it.  When I asked what symbol(s)
    might be included, both versions of the swastika appeared.  To me it 
    seems to be a symbol which acknowledges both our "shadow" side and 
    "light" side.  Imo, every human being carries the potential for acts of 
    horror as well as compassion.  Both symbols will remind me of this as 
    I use the rattle in my healing work.
    
    Kb 			
1673.7repliesTNPUBS::PAINTERMark Russell for presThu May 28 1992 15:3524
    
    Re.6
    
    Marcos,
    
    Yes, same fellow.  His two books are:
    
       "Stalking The Wild Pendulum - On The Mechanics Of Consciousness"
       "The Cosmic Book, with Mirtala"
    
    They are fantastic!  I can't recommend them highly enough.  For an
    excerpt from "The Cosmic Book", see note 1571 in this conference.
    It's kind of light reading, but gets the point across.  The first book
    "Pendulum" is a lot more in-depth than the second one (for those who
    enjoy intellectual challenges (;^), and talks about holograms too.
    
    Re.5
    
    Karen,
    
    I found the reference in "The Cosmic Book", but it didn't make it into
    work today, so I'll post it later on.              
    
    Cindy
1673.9Should I worry?FORTY2::CADWALLADERReaping time has come...Thu May 28 1992 16:3933
    Hi,
    
    	One of my favourite groups uses symbols which I find worrying. I am
    not sure whether their use of such symbols is to promote support of
    related groups or as a kind of mimicking opposition. The use of Nazi
    references/speeches/pictures in their work does concern me however,
    since I may be unwittingly supporting such a cause through buying their
    material. Does anyone have any ideas regarding the following symbols:
    
    The "Totemkopf 6" - the Nazi "skull" symbol turned the opposite way to
    that on the Nazi flag, enclosed within a circle and having the number 6
    underneath and to the right of the skull but within the circle.
    
    The "whip-hand" - a studded, gloved hand, holding a curled whip.
    
    Another symbol comprising a circle enclosing a three forked symbol,
    like this \|/
    	       |	(i.e. a knackered crow's foot) :-)
    
    The group literature also uses a small symbol composed of a rough
    series of lines in some kind of roughly square arrangement. If anyone
    wants copies of the band info I have been sent, for study, I can send
    copies by internal post...
    
    The lyrics often imply death/the war/pain etc. e.g. the song title
    Europa: The Gates of Heaven, and the group is called "Death In June".
    
    Much is also made of the German phrases Heilige Tod & Heilige Leben -
    pertaining to the birth & death of Christ...
    
    Comments....	????
    
    								- JIM CAD*
1673.10RAVEN1::PINIONHard Drinking Calypso PoetFri May 29 1992 04:3312
    Hi Karen,
    
        The seas will be good to me this weekend I hope! :-)  I heading out in
    a few hours for a rural expedition on Otter Island just off our coast
    here in South Carolina.  Completely uninhabited...'cept for the local
    wildlife.
    
        The bell & rattle project sounds interesting.  Keep us posted...
    C-ya!
    
                                                          Capt. Scott
                                                      
1673.11HOO78C::ANDERSONAn awfully great adventure!Fri May 29 1992 07:3611
    Until the 1930s the symbol that we now call the swastika did not have
    the horrors of the Nazi party attached to it. Hitler chose it as it was
    an old Roman symbol, the Roman Empire being in his eyes the first
    Reich.

    In fact in the UK there is a WW I war memorial that has swastikas on it.

    There was also the idea that clockwise ones meant good luck and
    anti-clockwise ones (as the Nazi one) meant bad luck. Ironic really.

    Jamie.
1673.12CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songFri May 29 1992 14:225
    Ironic indeed Jamie, thanks.
    
    Kb
    
    p.s. Good winds and fair seas to ya, Captain! 
1673.13from bookTNPUBS::PAINTERMark Russell for presFri May 29 1992 14:4520
                     
    From: "A Cosmic Book", by I.Bentov, p.50
    
    "The [Hebrew] letters of the creative center [letters go here] mean 'to
    hope intensely, to desire.'  They also mean 'will begin.'  Read
    backwards, they become [letters go here in reverse], meaning, in
    essence, 'for life.  Read in both directions they combine into the
    meaning 'desire for life to begin.'  This desire resulted in the
    process of creation, symbolized by the swastika* within the creative
    center, representing a four-dimensional rotating universe.  It is
    interesting to note that if you merge your consciousness with that of
    the Creator, you discover within Him a rotating swastika.  In other
    words, swastika stands for both the Creator and the Creation - they are
    inseparable.
    
    * The swastika is an archetypal symbol used universally by mankind
    since antiquity to express cosmic energy.
    
    Add'l note - the swastika depicted in this book is rotating
    counterclockwise.
1673.14CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songFri May 29 1992 15:083
    Wow!  That's great Cindy!  Many thanks.  
    
    Kb
1673.15Other symbols...FORTY2::CADWALLADERReaping time has come...Fri May 29 1992 15:119
Hi,
	Shall I take that as a "No" about the other symbols? :-)

	Does anyone know of a suitable conference where I would be able to get
further information about these symbols?

	Cheers,

								- JIM CAD*
1673.18Yikes! That's some coincidence... OR IS IT? :-)FORTY2::CADWALLADERReaping time has come...Fri May 29 1992 16:330
1673.19Yes...that is, 'No'TNPUBS::PAINTERMark Russell for presFri May 29 1992 19:297
    
    Jim,
    
    Checked through the book, and no symbols that you described appear in
    it.
         
    Cindy
1673.20Ananda Marga's SwastikaWR1FOR::BOYNTON_CASat May 30 1992 04:2722
    About the swastika....
    
    When I was studying yoga in India in the early '70's with the Ananda
    Marga Yoga Society, we were taught that the swastika was an ancient
    symbol meaning "well being" or "success/victory."  That meaning was
    supposed to be a direct translation of the two sanskrit roots that make
    up the word: "swa" and "asti."
    
    In fact, the symbol of Ananda Marga caused a lot of consternation in
    this country as it incorporated a swastika within a rising sun within a
    "star of David."  The rising sun meant "the dawn of a new age," and the
    two interlocking triangles of the star (one pointing up and one
    pointing down) meant "spiritual elevation" and "physical purity," or
    something like that.
    
    The swastika was also supposed to symbolize the awakening of the
    kundalini, and the direction of the arms was to indicate the "uncoiling
    of the serpent."  Ananda Marga liked to claim that their swastika
    pointed (or the energy flowed) in the opposite direction from Hitler's. 
    At least the cross part is vertical and horizontal, not diagonal.  
    
    Carter
1673.21oops!TNPUBS::PAINTERMark Russell for presMon Jun 01 1992 20:0219
                                              
    Karen,
    
    Correction to the excerpt I entered - there is a swastika diagram on 
    another page in the book, complete with an arrow indicating the spin.  
    It is rotating *clockwise*, even though the ends are in the opposite 
    direction. 
    
                        -----   |
                   |    |       |
                   |    |       v
                   -----------
                        |    |
                        |    |
                   -----
    
    Rotate the figure 45 degrees to match the picture in the book. 
    
    Cindy
1673.22SALSA::MOELLERAli' Boma Ye'Mon Jun 01 1992 23:594
    re .21.. that's the same orientation the National Socialist Party of
    Germany used.
    
    karl
1673.23From what I remember.DNEAST::BERLINGER_MALIFE IN THE ASTRAL PLANETue Jun 16 1992 16:4612
    
    
    re.9
    
               Jim,
    
                  I've seen the "whip-hand"drawing before and think it may
    be referenceing anarchy. the \  |  /  symbol seems to be the inverted 
    peace sign
    popular in the 1960's. It,    \ | /  by the way is the graphic
    representation of the          \|/  semiphore code for the two letters
    N and D  expressing Neuclear    |  Disarmament. 
1673.24Symbol used for Healing...ELMAGO::AWILLETOFri Jun 26 1992 19:5844
    RE: (some-replies-back) about the Navajo Good Luck Charm.
    
    The symbol in Navajo Sand Paintings is called "Whirling Logs", which
    depict four holy logs with dieties standing atop them (heads in
    direction of spin).
    
    Thus:
    
    		 o   o   o   o
    	        -|- -|- -|- -|-  <---dieties
    		 ^   ^   ^   ^
                 ^   ^   ^   ^
    		====================================(+) <--center
    
    		
    
    when displayed in entirety:
    
    
    				|--o
    				|--o
    				|--o
    				|--o
    				|
    				|
    	o o o o			|
    	| | | |			|
    	-----------------------(+)-------------------------
    				|	            | | | |
    				|		    o o o o
    				|
    				|
    			     o--|
    			     o--|
    			     o--|
    			     o--|
    
    
    Thus, the swastika-ish diagram...
    
    Regards,
    
    Anthony
    
1673.25CARTUN::BERGGRENheart full of songFri Jun 26 1992 20:185
    <---
    
    Thanks *very* much Anthony.
    
    Karen
1673.26Another DIJ symbol & Six Comm active again under `Kenaz' bannerFORTY2::CADWALLADERReaping time has come...Mon Jun 29 1992 13:3020
Hi,
	Just a FYI addendum. I noticed the Skull-head symbol on another Death In
June album cover, but this time within a vertically elongated diamond. I bought
a CD of theirs over the weekend, which contained an inlay talking of Kenaz;
primarily a record label, but intending to expand into a whole system of open
days, workshops on Norse Magic etc. in 1992, with limited jewellery and other
nick nacks being offered too. 
When I remember I will post the inlay message about Kenaz, Six Comm etc. (another
group name as well as being a significant phrase- anyone know details?) in a new 
topic (or perhaps in an existing one if I can see a suitable string)...

								- JIM CAD*

Information can be obtained from:

	BCM Kenaz
	London
	WC1N 3XX

(Death In June => BM June, Current93/Nurse With Wound => BM Wound)
1673.27Seen a similar symbol on a poster of mineFORTY2::CADWALLADERReaping time has come...Mon Jul 27 1992 11:2721
RE: .24 ("Whirling logs Healing Symbol")

I thought this looked familiar... over the weekend I found a poster that had
been included with one of my CURRENT93 LPs, in the middle is a pixie type
figure with a whirling logs type symbol on his middle, but not with figures,
merely a small circle, with four straight `spokes', and from each spoke 
(perpendicular to) were crooked lines:

			  |	|~~~
			  | | 	|~~
			  | | | |~
			  ------O------
			       ~| | | |
			      ~~|   | |
			     ~~~|     |

Another group symbol is surely derived from this too, a circle in which are
depicted six or eight (?) whirling scythe heads, again pointing clockwise
(I'm not gonna try to draw this one! :-) )

								- JIM CAD*