T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
1643.1 | Could be lots of things. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Tue Mar 17 1992 19:29 | 17 |
| It's Greek for "knowledge". Almost anything might therefore take such
a name -- from a spiritual discipline or community to a data base.
There were a bunch of religions in what is now the Middle East at
around the beginning of the common era, known as the "Gnostic"
religions. They had as a common thesis that the universe is a trap or
a prison created by an evil deity, for trapping divine sparks of a
great/good deity who is/was far removed from the universe. Escape from
the prison may only be accomplished (generally only at death) by people
who have gained detailed knowledge of the trap (gnosis). Depending on
the specific cult/religion/sect gnosis might be mystical knowledge or
might be intellectual knowledge of the "astral" plane one finds oneself
at upon death. Some (though not most) gnostic religions were
Christian, and emphasis has therefore been made in traditional accounts
of gnosticism as a Christian heresy.
Topher
|
1643.2 | Gnostic Gnowledge | CUPMK::WAJENBERG | Harvey/Dowd in '92 | Wed Mar 18 1992 12:03 | 8 |
| Re .1
As I understood it, modern scholarship was first aware of Gnosticism
only as a collection of Christian heresies, and it was not until recent
decades that people discovered there were plenty of pre- and non-
Christian Gnostic groups. Is this correct?
Earl Wajenberg
|
1643.3 | pointer | TNPUBS::PAINTER | let there be music | Wed Mar 18 1992 13:24 | 7 |
|
Re.0
For some reading on the subject, check out "The Gnostic Gospels" by
Elaine Pagels.
Cindy
|
1643.4 | Just say Gnosis! | VSSCAD::LARU | goin' to graceland | Wed Mar 18 1992 13:37 | 19 |
| From a subscription solicitation:
For the best in contemporary thoughts on ancient questions...
_Gnosis_ is a quarterly journal exploring the
inner traditions of Western culture. Each
thought-provoking issue examines the esoteric
and mystical dimensions of our religious,
native, and folk heritage in an open-minded
and nondagmatic manner.
Published by the Lumen Foundation
POB 14217
San Francisco CA 94114
Currently offering subsciptions:
1 year (4 issues) $18
2 years $36
|
1643.5 | the main idea | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Wed Mar 18 1992 14:49 | 23 |
1643.6 | A gnostic religion vs gnosticism in general. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Wed Mar 18 1992 15:47 | 16 |
1643.7 | Sort of -- but not really. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Wed Mar 18 1992 16:05 | 39 |
| RE: .2 (Earl)
> As I understood it, modern scholarship was first aware of Gnosticism
> only as a collection of Christian heresies, and it was not until recent
> decades that people discovered there were plenty of pre- and non-
> Christian Gnostic groups. Is this correct?
That is not quite my understanding.
Many non-Christian sources existed but were mostly ignored. Gnosticism
was *defined* by Western scholars as a Christian heresy (in fact *the*
Christian heresy which forced what became The Church to get its act
together and create a central authority, decide on what literature was
cannonical, determine that there was such a thing as Christian heresy,
etc.). Other works which did not place those same ideas in a Christian
context were classified as "precursors of gnosticism" or "influenced
by gnosticism."
This became harder to maintain when a large library of gnostic
writings, mostly or all translated into Koptic was discovered in the
1950s. Some of these were Christian writings and some were not, and
you had to get quite deep into many of them until you discovered
whether or not, by the old criteria, they were "gnostic" (Christian) or
not.
Some modern scholars still persist, despite all the evidence to the
contrary, in viewing gnosticism as fundamentally Christian with some
peripheral influence on non-Christian religions thinking. They still
define gnosticism as Christian and deal with the other stuff as
"related movements". This seems to be wholly motivated by a feeling
that since Christian/non-Christian later became an important
distinction in understanding religion, it must be considered a
fundamental distinction at that time as well. I rather suspect that
many Christian gnostics of that period would have felt that they had
more in common with contemporary non-Christian gnostics then with
non-gnostic Christians -- certainly they seemed to be more influenced
by their writings.
Topher
|
1643.8 | HERCOLUBUS | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Wed Mar 18 1992 16:37 | 7 |
|
REP. .6 (topher)
I know that gnosis can be found in every where (i mean knowledge) but i
specifically want to hear more about the gnosis (ancient school or
religion i don't know) which was CHANGED by SAMAEL AUN WEOR by 1940 or
1950 (decade).
|
1643.9 | I'll see if I have anything. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Wed Mar 18 1992 17:52 | 13 |
| RE: .8
I'll see if I can find anything.
At a guess, I'd say that this was either influenced by or was a branch
of Jewish mystical thought. What you say about it has a distinctly
Jewish/Lurian feel to it. The "change" may have involved an explicit
recognition of the gnostic roots of the school, since this had
basically been forgotten until the previously mentioned find of a
Koptic gnostic library refocussed attention on gnostism as a religious
movement distinct from Christianity. The time frame is right.
Topher
|
1643.10 | wake up people | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Mon Mar 23 1992 11:09 | 5 |
| hi, my interest about it is really big... is it so hard to find out
somebody to talk about it????
is this issue problematic?? still waiting....
|
1643.11 | Press SELECT or KP7 to add ... | DWOVAX::STARK | To Serve Man | Mon Mar 23 1992 11:48 | 8 |
| re: .10,
Just a long shot ... did you try asking in GRIM::RELIGION, too ?
Maybe somebody who reads there who doesn't read this conference has a line
on it.
todd
|
1643.12 | excuse me? | TNPUBS::PAINTER | let there be music | Mon Mar 23 1992 14:07 | 11 |
|
Re.10 (Goncalves)
>wake up people
With a comment like that, even if I did know more than I entered a few
notes ago, I probably wouldn't bother to contribute any more.
There are more polite ways of requesting additional information.
Cindy
|
1643.13 | OF COURSE !! | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Mon Mar 23 1992 15:01 | 11 |
1643.14 | | SCARGO::CONNELL | Visualize whirled peas! | Mon Mar 23 1992 15:55 | 12 |
| Claudio, it is obvious from your grammar, that English is not your
primary language. That is not your fault or your problem. I will just
say that "Wake up" in American English (I'm not sure about the Queen's
English) is an idiom for telling someone thay are to stupid or naive to
get the point you are trying to make. Again, as seems obvious, if you
don't speak or write or read English on a continous basis, then you
might not know this.
Beyond that, I will say that I know nothing of information that you are
trying find out.
PJ
|
1643.15 | request | TNPUBS::PAINTER | let there be music | Mon Mar 23 1992 16:07 | 9 |
|
Re.13
Claudio,
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the meaning of your words "wake
up" then. I agree that there are many meanings...
Cindy
|
1643.16 | sorry | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Mon Mar 23 1992 19:37 | 19 |
1643.17 | | CGVAX2::CONNELL | Visualize whirled peas! | Mon Mar 23 1992 19:52 | 12 |
| Again a language barrier. Claudio, you are not stupid, never, ever say
that. I can't be sure, but I believe you primary language is Italian or
Spanish. Saying you're stupid is putting negative feelings onto
yourself and that's something you should never do. (Take it from one
who's been there not to long ago) I would be lucky to be able to say
hello in your language and not have it misconstrued. This is no one's
fault and you are not stupid.
I don't want to rathole this topic, but please never call yourself
stupid. Misinformed or "I donn't understand" might be better.
PJ
|
1643.18 | Re.16 | TNPUBS::PAINTER | let there be music | Mon Mar 23 1992 20:26 | 9 |
|
Claudio,
I, too, am sorry. Clearly we were not using the same definition of the
phrase.
My apologies,
Cindy
|
1643.19 | involvement with Gnostics | PANIC::CHRZANOWSKA | | Tue Mar 24 1992 15:55 | 78 |
| Claudio,
I had some involvement last year with a group of Gnostics following the
teachings of Samael aun Weor.
I live in London (UK) and saw a notice about a talk on Tibetan Buddism
at my local library and went along. The talk was free and very
interesting, and was followed by a number of other talks on things
which were to me totally unrelated but all fascinating, such as
Astrology, the Tarot, the Pyramids, the lost city of Atlantis etc. The
group of people running these were Spanish and spoke broken English but
were nevertheless quite understandable. They kept saying they would
run a course, which we were all invited to attend, and which would be
charged for (#20 a month). After about half a dozen "public" sessions,
the numbers dwindled from about 20 to about 6 and we paid for the
talks. For various personal reasons, I was looking for something
spiritual in my life. Having been brought up as a Catholic, I had
rejected Catholicism at around 16 because of the apalling amount of
hypocrisy I had encountered, and had never subsequently followed any
kind of religion. I was totally fascinated by all this stuff, and
couldn't get enough of it.
They had a couple of books translated from
Spanish written by Samael aun Weor, which I bought and read. The
Gnostics used to talk about destroying your "egos". Egos are bad
things like hate, laziness, lust, anger etc which you are supposed to
get rid off so that you can get in touch with the Divine spark within
you - they called this the "Essence" - the part that is linked with
god.
In July, they started talking about a seminar which they were holding
in August in London. They said this was an annual event taking place
in a different country each year. I decided immediately that I wanted
to go to it. It was to run for 4 days. It was made clear that we
could only go if they felt we were ready, and there was a cost
involved. There was also a play that would be shown at the seminar
which we could take part in and I decided to do this. During the
rehearsals, I began to get some "bad vibes", mainly due to what I
perceived to be an unspoken assumption that we had no other comittments
in our lives, and could turn up for this at a moments notice and spend
hours at a time hanging round. However, all the Gnostics were
absolutely wonderful - very warm, kind, caring etc - you would have to
be odd not to feel a great deal of affection for these people.
When the seminar started, we were not warned beforehand, but you were
not allowed out from 10:00 am until lunch at about 2:00 pm, even to go
to the loo (this is a major problem for me!) There were about 700
people there from all over the world, and we had small radios for
simultaneous translation. The speaker was the "Head" of this movement,
a Spaniard called Ernesto Baron, and I was told his wife Cloris would
also speak. The adulation on their entry surprised and disturbed me,
but when he started speaking, if was worse. The goal was clearly to
make people feel really bad about themselves. We were asked to fill in
questionnaires which I assumed were confidential, but he then read
out selected ones, told people to come up onto the stage, and publicly
humiliated them! The afternoon session went on for about 4 or 5 hours
again without a break.
When I left to go home, I was very uneasy. The next morning some
people did not turn up. We had a "roll call" for all 700 people to see
who had dropped out. I spoke to a woman next to me who was also very
uneasy. She said she'd got involved in something similar when in the
US called EST (at that time I'd never heard of EST and knew nothing
about it). During the morning session, things got worse. People were
invited to come on to the stage and confess their vices to everyone -
which people did - and then the teachers who had been teaching us were
told to do the same, which they did, clearly with a great deal of pain
and tears. I was absolutely devasted. I started to cry and this woman
next to me (who'd told me about EST) held my hand. After about half an
hour she got up and walked out, although they tried to stop her. I
left at lunchtime, and have never been back.
I felt totally betrayed by the people who had told me that this seminar
was "a beautiful thing". I suppose I'll never know whether I did the
right thing by walking out .....!
Krys
|
1643.20 | Public humiliation is not necessary... | 31294::WARD_FR | Making life a mystical adventure | Tue Mar 24 1992 16:18 | 7 |
| re: .19 (Krys)
You did fine.
Frederick
|
1643.21 | You can always get in, but not out. | DWOVAX::STARK | To Serve Man | Tue Mar 24 1992 16:42 | 15 |
| re: .19,
Congratulations on keeping your integrity.
From your description, there was nothing particularly
unique about that group, they followed what seems to me
is a very common pattern of induction and psychological
conditioning within a spiritual framework.
If you decide that was what you wanted, you can always
find groups that will supply it. If not, then
you managed to get away with your mind and emotions intact,
and that's not something everyone can say.
todd
|
1643.22 | YOU DID FINE | PCMV01::GONCALVES | | Wed Mar 25 1992 13:21 | 44
|