Conference hydra::dejavu

    A fairly ill-omened name, Ro.  The myth that is most usually told --
    called classically "The Rape of Persephone" -- makes of Persephone a
    rather sad victim.  Kidnapped by Hades (aka Pluto) to be his Queen of
    the Dead.  Her mother, Cerce, attempts to rescue her.  In one rather
    late (classical period) version of the story she partially succeeds and
    Persephone is allowed to spend half the year on Earth instead of below
    it (your basic springtime myth).  This shows that Disney didn't invent
    sticking a happy ending on a tragic tale.  The happy ending version is
    the version usually told today.  The "real" version, however, has Cerce
    failing completely and Persephone becomes fully the co-ruler of the
    dark realm -- second in fearsomeness only to her husband (who was so
    terrifying that people generally avoided using his name and substituted
    replacements like Pluto -- The Rich One).

				    Topher

    Thanks Topher for the info.  I ended up doing a search in here for all
    the references to Persephone (some in Tarot, some in Jung topics). 
    Since I've been doing some work with Jungian approach to dreaming and
    archetypes, I think I'll view her as my own 'shadow' side emerging.
    Not as an 'evil' figure, but as suppressed aspects of my spirit which
    aren't necessarily to be viewed as 'dark' just areas that have been in
    denial.  
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Ro with the firey fast little car!  ;')
    
    

    Name nits:  Persephone's mother was Ceres in Latin (as in "cereal"; she 
    was a grain goddess), not Cerce; her Greek name was Demeter. 
    Persephone's Latin name was Proserpina.
    
    I know a couple of minor myths involving Persphone.  Aphrodite had a
    mortal or demi-mortal lover named Adonis, who died in a hunting
    accident.  In one version of the story, he died because Persephone
    wanted him down in the underworld, as her own lover.  As I recall,
    Aphrodite complained to her nephew Zeus, who adjudicated custody --
    Adonis spent half his time in the underworld with Persephone and the
    other half with Aphrodite, thus making Adonis himself a seasonal deity,
    like Persephone in the happy-ending version of her own main myth.
    
    In the myth of Eros and Psyche, Aphrodite plays a cross between a bad
    fairy and a termagent mother-in-law and sends her hapless daughter-in-
    law Psyche a series of impossible-seeming tasks.  One, the last, I
    think, is to descend to the underworld and beg a boxful of beauty from
    Persephone for Aphrodite. (Coals to Newcastle, one would think.)
    
    I think, though I am far from sure, that the Alexandrians identified
    her with Isis as Queen of the Dead.
    
    You might want to consider naming your car "Susie" or something.
    
    Earl Wajeberg

    re: (A car named) Persephone,
    
    Sort of a classical 'Christine,'  eh ?
    
    I like it, Ro, I can just see you blazing across the sky in your
    flaming chariot.  :-)
    
    							todd

           
    Re.1
    
    Topher,
    
    Your reference to Kali - is that the goddess in India lore?  
    
    If so, I have an explanation of Kali's symbolism online somewhere 
    that's interesting and would be happy to enter it in here.
    
    Cindy

RE: .3 (Earl)

>    Name nits:  Persephone's mother was Ceres in Latin (as in "cereal"; she 
>    was a grain goddess), not Cerce; her Greek name was Demeter. 
>    Persephone's Latin name was Proserpina.

    Whoops! <red face>  Absolutely right Earl.  I knew that didn't look
    right and I kept thinking I was spelling it wrong.  Cerce was, of
    course, the evil sorceress who appeared in various Greek myths and
    hero tales (including the Odyssey).

					Topher

RE: .2 (Ro)

>    Not as an 'evil' figure, but as suppressed aspects of my spirit which
>    aren't necessarily to be viewed as 'dark' just areas that have been in
>    denial.

    Persephone fits that perfectly.  She is certainly not to be considered
    evil -- mysterious and dangerous, but just.  This is my association
    with "dark".  I did not mean to imply that Persephone was evil.  In
    darkness evil can flourish but not everything, or even most things, in
    the realm of darkness should be considered evil.

					    Topher

   I was under the impression that the car named itself, so it's not a case
   of the basenoter (sorry, I forgot your name) naming the car as much as
   the car "presenting" its name.

   My present car "named" itself "Melanie."  She was rather insistent about
   it.  The salesman told me her color was "sand."  This is a rather
   ambiguous color description, as sand comes in many colors.  It doesn't
   look sandy to me.  Anyway, she rather indignantly told me that she was
   melon colored and that her name was Melanie.  "Fine," I said, very
   surprised by her intensity.  "Okay by me."


   							Terza

RE: .5 (Cindy)

    Yes, I was refering to the Hindu goddess.  The analogy is only very
    rough, though -- I was trying to communicate Persephone's dire nature.
    One analogy which seems appropos is that Kali (in variously named
    aspects) is very clearly the female side of a dual male/female
    deity -- Shiva.  This is somewhat the feel of Persephone/Hades --
    unlike the other two rulers of the Universe in Greek mythology (no one
    would think of Hecate as a female aspect to Zeus -- she was very much
    a different "person").

    A major difference, though is that Kali is the goddess of destruction
    of all kinds, and is generally pictured as bloodthirsty.  Persephone
    is a goddess only of death, not of violence or destruction in general,
    and she did not revel in cruelty or death (nor shrink from it).

    What you have on Kali might be interesting for comparison -- but Kali
    and Persephone were/are distinctly different myths.

					Topher

    
From: "The Essense Of Self-Realization - the Wisdom of Yogananda, by 
                                         J.Donald Walter, p.147-148

"One thing I cannot appreciate in the Hindu religion," said a Christian 
severely, "is its plethora of gods."

"There are many," agreed Yogananda.  "Each, however, represents an 
attempt to remind us of God in one of His innumerable aspects.  They are 
abstractions - a way of saying, 'No human being can really understand 
what God *is*, but here, at least, is something that He *does*.'"

"Take, for example, the image of the goddess Kali.  This s a good case 
in point, because, out of all Hindu images, Kali has been the most 
misunderstood by Western minds."

"Kali stands naked.  Her right foot is placed on the chest of Her 
prostrate husband.  Her hair streams out, disheveled, behind Her.  A 
garland of human heads adorns Her neck.  In one of four hands She 
brandishes a sword; in another, a severed head.  Her tongue, usually 
painted a bright red, lolls out as though in blood-lust."

At this point the Christian shuddered.  Yogananda grinned roguishly.

"If we thought that this image depicted Kali as She is," he continued, 
"I grant you, it might awaken devotion in very few devotees!  However,
the purpose of that image is to describe certain universal functions of 
the Divine in Nature."

"Kali represents Mother Nature.  She is Aum, the cosmic vibration.  In 
Aum everything exists - all matter, all energy, and the thoughts of all 
conscious beings.  Hence, Her garland of heads, to show that She is 
invisibly present in all minds.

"The play of life and death expresses Her activity in Nature: creation, 
preservation, and destruction.  Hence the sword, the head, and a third 
hand extended, bestowing life.

"Her energy is onmipresent; hence Her streaming hair, representing 
energy.  

"Shiva, Her husband, represents God in His vibrationless state, beyond 
creation.  Thus, He is depicted as supine.

"Kali's tongue is protruding not in blood-lust as most people believe, 
but because in India, when a person makes a mistake, he sticks out his 
tongue.  In the West, don't you express embarrassment somewhat 
similarly?  You put your hands to your mouth.

"Kali is depicted as dancing all over creation.  This dance represents 
the movement of cosmic vibration, in which all things exist.  When 
Kali's foot touches the breast of the Infinite, however, She puts her 
tongue out as if to say, 'Oh, oh, I've gone to far!'  For at the touch 
of the Infinite Spirit, all vibration ceases.

"Kali's fourth hand is raised in blessing on those who seek, not Her 
gifts, but liberation from this endless play of 'maya' or delusion.

"Those who feel themselves attracted to Nature's outward manifestations 
must continue the endless round of life and death, through incarnation 
after incarnation.  Those devotees, however, who deeply long for freedom 
from the cosmic play worship God as the indwelling Self.  Through 
meditation, they merge in the infinite Aum.  And from oneness with Aum 
they pass beyond creation, to unite their consciousness with God, 
timeless, and Eternal Bliss.

"The statues of Kali are not intended to depict the Divine Mother as She 
looks, but simply to display Her functions in the aspect of Mother 
Nature.

"The Divine Mother, is, of course, without form, though we may say also 
that Her body is the entire universe, with its infinity of suns and 
moons.  She can also appear to the devotee in human form, however.  When 
She does, She is enshrined in supernal beauty.

"All the images of gods in India are symbolic.  We must look beyond 
their shapes to the hidden meanings they represent."

    RE: Basenote,
    
                    The myth of Persephone has a lot to say to Many
    women...IMHO.  Her rape and decending into hell gives a graphic
    description of our society's thoughts on women.  And yet her 
    coming back out after her mother made a deal with Pluto gives rise to
    hope.  She became the Sun.  
    
    
    Dave

    Yes, Dave, I agree, an archetype for the collective consciousness of
    American (or maybe all) women today perhaps.
    
    Re: Terza.  Yup, I feel the car named itself because the idea of naming
    the car and the name itself, Persephone, popped into my head and I had
    no knowledge of who/what Persephone was.
    
    Ro
    

    The perspective that speaks most clearly to me on the Persephone story
    is that of our need to explore our own inner Underworld, or to put it
    another way, to engage the shadow parts of ourselves.  Most of the time
    we do not do this willingly, so a figure from the Underworld "kidnaps"
    us, forcing us to make this journey into the darkened parts of ourselves.
    
    I believe the rape of Persephone in this sense symbolically relates to 
    the need for unity between the Shadow and the ego, and if we don't
    willingly "make love" with our Shadow it will force itself upon us.   
    
    Karen

    OK, I dug out my Mythic Tarot deck and book. It is based on the Greek
    Myths and here is what it has to say on Persephone:
    
    Persephone is the High Priestess card.
    
    the card of the High Priestess portrays a slender, etherial woman with
    pale skin, with long black hair and dark eyes, dressed in a simple
    white gown. on her head is a golden crown. In her right hand she holds
    a pomegranate, split open to show it's multitude of seeds. In her left
    hand a bunch of white Narcissi trail to the ground. On either side of
    the stairway on which she stands, is a pillar; the left one is black,
    the white one white. Behind her, at the top of the staircase, a doorway
    opens onto a rich green landscape which appears in thhe card of the
    Empress.
    
    The pomegranate is both the fruit of the dead and of conjugal love
    because of it's many seeds. thus Persephone's hiden world is fertile
    and full of undeveloped creative potential.
    
    The black and white pillars reflect the duality contained in the
    underworld. Both creative potentials and destructive impulses are
    contained in the darkness of the unconcious.
    
    The Narcissus, which Persephone picked when Hades abducted her, ws
    associated with the dead because of it's ghastly color and it's annual
    emergence from the winter earth.
    
    
    Here we meet Persephone, queen of the underworld, daughter of the Earth
    Mother, Demeter and guardian of the secrets of the dead. We have
    already seen, in the card of the Empress, how, according to myth,
    Hades, lord of the underworld, was overwhelmed with desire for the
    maiden while she wandered in the fields picking flowers, and rose up
    out of the earth to abduct her. When he had brought her to his dark
    abode, he offered her a pomegranate, which she ate. Having partaken of
    the fruit of the dead, she was bound to him forever.
    
    Persephone ruled over the underworld with her husband for three monnths
    of the year. Although the remaining nine months were spent in the
    daylight world with her mother, Demeter, she could never speak of the
    secrets she had learned in the land of the dead. The realm of Hades,
    full of mysteries and riches, was ringed around by the terrible river
    Styx, over which no man or woman could cross without the permission of
    Hades himself; although Hermes, messenger of the gods and guide of
    souls, could usher through those exceptionl heroes who had gained the
    god's consent. Even the souls of the dead could not cross without
    paying a coin to Charon, the old ferryman who rowed the boat of passage
    across the Styx, for at the gateway to Hade's realm crouched the
    terrifying three-headed dog Cerberus who devoured any trespasser,
    living or dead, who did not respect the laws of the invisible realm.
    Thus, through eating the pomegranate, Persephone left behing her
    innocent girlhood, and became guardian of this shadowy realm and
    custodian of it's secrets.
    
    On and inner level, Persephone, The High Priestess, is an image of that
    link with the mysterious inner world to which depth psychology has
    given the name, "the unconcious". It is as though, beneath and beyond
    the ordinary daylight world which we believe to be reality, lies
    another, hidden world, full or riches and potentials, which we cannot
    penetrate without the consent of it's invisible rulers. This world
    contains our undeveloped potentials as well as the darker, more
    primitive facets of the personality. It also holds the secret of the
    destiny of the individual, which gestates in the darkness until the
    time is ripe for manifestation. Persephone, the High Priestess, is and
    embodiment of that part of us which knows the secrets of the inner
    world. But she can only be dimly sensed by waking conciousness, and
    appears through fleeting fragments of dreams, or through those strange
    coincidences which make us begin to wonder whether there might be some
    hidden pattern at work in our lives.
    
    Persephone is a seductive and fascinating figure, but she does not
    speak of her secrets. In the same way the night-world of the
    unconcious, glimpsed through dreams and fantasies and intuitions, is
    also seductive and fascinating, but when we try to grasp it and
    "master" it for our own purposes, it remains mute and slides away. The
    dark world of Persephone provides only shadowy glimpses of patterns and
    movements at work within the invidual, which require patience and the
    passage of time before they can be brought into the light of day. The
    myth of Persephone emphasizes the cyclical motion of time, portrayiong
    a mysterious rythym, a constant coming and going of something. The
    seeds of change and new potentials wait silently in the womb of the
    underworld before they are given over to the care of the Earth Mother
    and brought to birth in the material world. Persephone, the High
    Priestess, is an image of that natural law at work within the depths of
    the soul which governs the unfoldment of destiny from an invisible
    source, and which is revealed only through fleeing intuition and the
    night-world of dreams.
    
    On a divinatory level, the appearance of the High Priestess in a spread
    augurs the heightening of the powers of intuition, and implies that
    there willo be an encounter of some kind with the inner world which
    Persephone rules. the individual may be drawn inexplicably to this
    world through an interest in the occult or the esoteric, or through the
    effects of a powerful dream, or the uuncanny sense that "something" is
    at work one's life. Thus the Fool, having learned something of his
    physical nature and needs and his place in the world through his
    earthly parents, the Empress and the Emperor, now enters the
    night-world and comes, often with confusion and bewilderment, to that
    silent figure who embodies Mother on another deeper and subtler level -
    the womb of the unconcious in which the secret of his real purpose and
    the pattern of his destiny are contained.
    
    
    Well, that's what the book said. Maybe Roey just has a hot, red car.
    :-)
    
    
    PJ 

    Thanks Karen, that is what I was trying to imply - you just did it more
    eloquently (as always).  ;')
    
    And thanks PJ for typing all that in.  I appreciate your taking the
    time to do that on your busy schedule.
    
    Ro (and Persephone thanks you too!)
    

    
    re .8 - a brief digression from Persephone and the underworld - 
    
    Terza: As I began to read, I thought - hmmm, another dark-named vehicle,
    since the name Melanie actually means "the dark-complexioned one" in
    Greek. Surprised to find that your car is actually melony in colour,
    but I too, feel that we can sometimes hear vehicles 'call out' their 
    names to us. 
    
    My Volkswagen is Tiziano, after the Venetian artist, since its red is 
    that burnished russet that one often finds in his work. The name came
    before I found the page in the owner's manual that lists my car's colour 
    as Titian Red, so obviously someone else heard the call of the hue...
    
    Gloria

    My dependable '66 Chevy Belaire was "Old Blue."  I guess my mythic 
    consciousness isn't very well developed.  :-)
    							todd

    re: .16 (Glowormia)
    
         Titian red, eh?  Hmmmm...the mind boggles...
    
         I never name my cars...I seem to let others do it for me.
    One of my cars (that at least two of those in here have seen  ;-) )
    was "affectionately" called "Road Warrior"---you have to see it
    to understand.  At least it's better than "Road Kill."  
    
    Frederick
    

RE: .9 (Me)

>    unlike the other two rulers of the Universe in Greek mythology (no one
>    would think of Hecate as a female aspect to Zeus -- she was very much
>    a different "person").

    I did it again.  I meant, of course, Hera, who was Zeus' wife, rather
    than Hecate.  Perhaps my subconscious is trying to tell me something,
    though damn if I know what.  Hecate was the goddess of sorcery and
    magic.  Cerce was probably a preistess of Hecate (given her multiple
    appearences in Greek mythology, she may not have been intended as
    a particular person but as an office such as chief priestess of
    Hecate).  Hecate aided in the search for Persephone and is the one
    who discovered her in the underworld.

				    Topher

    .19,
    
    > I did it again.
    
    Geesh Topher, would u get yer myths together, fer Mt. Olympus' sake?!
    
    :-)                                                            
    
    Karen 

    
    
    The color of my car is Misty Dawn....I call her Misty.  Brings up
    images of "The Mists of Avalon" whenever I think of it.
    
    Carole

    Neat Carole - although we're still reading Mists of Avalon (as you know
    *someone* is reading it to me ;')  ) so I'm not sure if it quite fits,
    but PJ's description of Persephone from the Tarot cards reminded me of
    Morgaine.
    
    Ro
    

    ro, that's interesting, because the High Priestess card in the Merlin
    Tarot refers to Morgaine. I'll have to dig that one up. As youu know
    that deck is very special for me. :-) 
    
    Hmm, I'd better get the Tarot of the Old path card also. The High
    Priestess is the card on the box cover and the book. the I run out of
    Tarot decks that I own.
    
    PJ

   Hi Gloria,

   I didn't know the meaning of Melanie, although it makes sense.  I'll have
   to think about it...

   Tiziano, that's neat!


   							Terza

   P.S.-What's the difference between anthropomorphizing an object and
   projecting unknown parts of ourselves onto it?  Does it matter?

    
    Terza:
    
    Since I'm not sure what you mean when you say "projecting unknown parts
    of ourselves onto an object" I can't compare that to anthropomorphosis,
    which I'm familiar with on literary and anthropological terms. But I'm
    interested and curious, so please explain...
    
    gloria

    The earth is dark.  Winter is dark.  Greece was an agricultural land. 
    Its mythology strongly resonated to the farmers of Greece.
    
    Persephone represented the seed that enters the ground in autumn and
    sprouts (3 months later) in spring.  In one version, she does not
    emerge from Hades.  Here, the sprouting wheat and ripe wheat are
    represented by different deities.  In another version, she does emerge,
    and represents the planting and sprouting phases.  Demeter commonly
    represents the harvest phase.
    
    Many traditional societies in Eastern Europe used rape (implying 
    abduction) symbolism to describe marriage.  That is, the bride is
    removed from her parents' home by the groom.  Some have a mock
    abduction ceremony prior to the marriage.  In this sense, Persephone's
    rape is actually a marriage.
    
    The use of rape in Greek myths is complex, reflecting the invasion of
    the indigenous people, who appear to have been matriarchal, by the
    patriarchal tribes from the plains to the northeast.
    
    The myth of Persephone and Demeter was integral to the Eleusinian
    mysteries.  Their culmination was probably the display of a sheaf of
    harvested wheat.  The mysteries probably related the mystery of the
    seasons - a seed (looking dead) from this year's wheat is planted in
    the winter ground and miraculously sprouts a new wheat plant several
    months later.  They probably also equated this with human spiritual
    death and rebirth. 
    
    Even today, Greek women make a special bread of ground meal and
    pomegranate seeds to take to the cemetary.  Remember Persephone held a
    pomegranate in her hand.  In Middle Eastern mythology, the pomegranate
    represents both fruitfulness (many seeds) and blood, relating it to
    death.
    
    There are many more layers to explore here, but this just gives you a
    taste.  I highly recommend Robert Graves' books on Greek mythology if
    you would like to dig back beyond the classical Greek era.
    
    Certainly I would not view Persephone as negative or evil, nor as
    simply a symbol of the oppression of women.  She is multifaceted and
    rather complex.  She also must be viewed in relation to the other gods
    and goddesses.
    

    Oh by the way, Persephone is similar to the Hanged Man in the Tarot
    deck.  In some decks he is depicted with his head dangling in a hole in
    the ground.  
    
    If you research Persephone further, be sure to look up Dionysius.  He
    is the god who is killed, with lots of blood, and is reborn.  In one
    sense, he is her male counterpart.