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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

1600.0. "astrology" by --UnknownUser-- () Tue Jan 07 1992 10:45

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1600.5A BEGINNER IN THIS STUFF!CSSE::PPARKERFri Jan 10 1992 16:2611
    This is an interesting subject for me because I am signing up for a
    course in learning to make, read or whatever, your own astrological
    chart.  It is for eight weeks one night a week for two hours and I
    couldn't imagine why you needed all that time just to learn how to
    work with your own chart.  Now I'm beginning to wonder if its enough
    time!!
    
    More later.
    
    Pat
    
1600.7RUBY::PAY$FRETTSthe body never liesSat Jan 11 1992 15:0212
    
    Pat,
    
    Astrology is an extremely complex subject, and I have found that I am
    still learning after 12 years of serious study and many prior years of
    interest.  I know that I'll continue learning through this life as
    well.
    
    You have to start somewhere, and an 8-week/2hour class sounds good.
    Enjoy your journey - it's endlessly fascinating!
    
    Carole  
1600.8It's true for me, so far.SWAM1::DOTHARD_STPLAYTOESun Jan 12 1992 15:1222
    re basenote
    
>    Now just to whet your appetite: look at your natal Sun. What degree
>    is it in? Subtract that number from 30. That is [should be] the age
<    when you went through some sort of change. The next trumatic phase
<    should occur 30 years later. What sign was it in? and what sign did
    
    This is heavy.  I've never heard of this formula, but it means
    something to me.  My natal Sun was in 22 degrees of Taurus when I was
    born, if I subtract 22 from 30 I get 8.  Now prior to this note I've
    always told people how I was baptised when I was 8, and this is the
    truth.  It is one of the most significant moments in MY life.  
    
    And guess what?  I'll be 38 this April 22!  So this is the year of my
    next phase.  Only problem I have with your formula, however, is that
    you call this next phase "traumatic".  The first one wasn't traumatic,
    why must this one be?  Would it be better to say "significant" than
    "traumatic"?  Or is "traumatic" (trouble) to be expected?  I'm not
    worried about "traumatic", I'll handle it...do you understand what I'm
    saying?
    
    Playtoe
1600.11PointerTNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicMon Jan 13 1992 12:368
    
    Re.10
    
    Wal,
    
    You might check over in the VAXWRK::INDIA conference.
    
    Cindy
1600.13DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyThu Jan 16 1992 16:288
Re: .12

Well, wal, .12 started out simple enough, but then you started in with this
"house system" stuff.  How would I, almost completely ignorant of astrology,
figure out which house system I want my chart in?????

Thanks,
Beth
1600.15HOCUS::FERGUSONWe might be laughing a bit too loudThu Jan 16 1992 18:4515
    >the best way to get to know what's really going on in your life at the
    >present moment would be to have 13 lunar returns done, read a good
    >solar/lunar return book, and then see what jives.
    
    There you go, talking dirty again :-).  Let's see, 13 X $3 X (number of
    interested parties)... are you *sure* you have no financial interest in
    this?  ;-)
    
    Beth -- the address looks like its not far from the office here.  I'm
    going to try and pop in there during lunch tomorrow and see if I can
    find someone there who can answer some questions about the differences
    between the different House systems, or at least recommend a book.  If
    you have any specific questions you want asked, let me know.
    
    Ginny
1600.16DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyThu Jan 16 1992 20:4316
No specific questions at this time, Ginny, but thanks.  I'm sort of getting
interested in a round about way:  NERO (a live role play group) developed its
own astrological signs (mostly just changed the names from western astrology),
and one of the members makes charts for in-game events.  She also makes them
for the people.  When my son was born, she did a real chart for him, and then
did one for his in-game persona.  The in-game chart she interpreted (e.g.
described the skill tendencies he would have), but with the real one, all she
did was list what the individual symbols are interpreted as.  I have sort of
guessed that they describe Stephen's personality, but I am most likely way off
base on my interpretation (it seems to imply he may be a selfish, friendly,
hedonistic, enterprising bastard ;-).  I guess some day I will have time to
put towards learning another skill.

Thanks,
Beth
1600.17SWAM1::DOTHARD_STPLAYTOEThu Jan 16 1992 21:0614
    RE: 9
    
    I confirm that the following has been the case.  And all those who know
    me in other files (ie Soapbox, UFOS, Christian Perspective, and most of
    all Blacknotes) will verify this!
    
>    your taurus sun progressed to gemini, therefore you "became" more
>    intellectual & communicative. your next progression should be into
    
    So two out of two is batting 100 for you.  It remains to be seen if
    'home, marriage and beauty shall be my focus for the next 30
    years...anyway it sounds good, I hope all goes as
    
    
1600.18PLAYER::BROWNLAnd another bag for the lightbulb..Fri Jan 17 1992 07:1421
1600.19RUBY::PAY$FRETTSSpirit inspires/Will experiencesFri Jan 17 1992 10:0517
    
    Playtoe,
    
    I am also a solar Taurean and have been experiencing my sun progressed
    to Gemini for the past 28 years.  In two years the sun will progress to
    Cancer.  One insight someone gave me recently was that I could well
    find my 'true' home finally, which is relevant for me as I've felt 
    very much orphaned through my life and never totally comfortable and
    safe in the places that I've lived.
    
    
    Laurie,
    
    Have there been any subjects that you've learned where you have not
    started out reading about the topic first?
    
    Carole
1600.20HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveFri Jan 17 1992 10:258
    Re .19
    
    >Have there been any subjects that you've learned where you have not
    >started out reading about the topic first?
    
    Life?
    
    Jamie.
1600.21RUBY::PAY$FRETTSSpirit inspires/Will experiencesFri Jan 17 1992 10:274
    
    Who asked you, Jamie?  ;^)
    
    Carole
1600.22PLAYER::BROWNLAnd another bag for the lightbulb..Fri Jan 17 1992 10:5812
    For me to believe anything I read in a book, in the text-book or
    reference sense, I expect some kind of proof, or reference to a source
    of proof, to back that statement up. Barring, of course, knowledge that
    is supposed to have been obtained prior to reading said book, and which
    has been assumed by the author.
    
    To illustrate; for instance, if I were to read in a book that making
    love on a Wednesday, with the curtains open by the light of a full
    moon, and standing up, will guarantee a super-intelligent child, before
    believing it, I would expect to see some proof of this statement.
    
    Laurie.
1600.26You provide the entertainment; I'll bring popcornWR1FOR::WARD_FRMaking life a mystical adventureFri Jan 17 1992 11:316
    re: .22 (Laurie)
    
         Mind if I watch?
    
    Frederick
    
1600.27PLAYER::BROWNLAnd another bag for the lightbulb..Fri Jan 17 1992 11:375
    RE: .26
    
    HeeHee
    
    Could you afford it?
1600.28DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyFri Jan 17 1992 14:5020
(I've not read past .18 yet)

Laurie,

If only one book were necessary to explain/describe facts, then there would 
only be ONE physics book, one math book, etc.  Just because it requires
several books DOES NOT mean it is not factual.

However, I understand your point.  I seem see two parts to astrology: the 
mathematics of the astronomical part, and the subjective analysis of the results
of the mathematics.  I don't question the mathematical aspect.  But, as I feel
with any "predictive" tool, it CAN'T show what WILL/MUST be, only what is LIKELY
to be.  Even though I do Tarot reading/predictions, I will be among the first
to tell you (or anyone) that any predictions are NOT 100% accurate.  They can
only tell what is most likely/probable to occur, but can be easily invalidated
by humanity's exercise of Free Will (oh how humanity can be truly random at
times).

Beth
1600.29The more we learn, the more there is to learn.COMICS::BELLLeaving just a memoryFri Jan 17 1992 15:2032
  
  Re .28 (Beth)
  
  > ... any predictions are NOT 100% accurate. 
  > They can only tell what is most likely/probable to occur, but can be easily
  > invalidated by humanity's exercise of Free Will (oh how humanity can be
  > truly random at times).
  
  Why random as opposed to chaotic ? ie., why assume that it is totally
  unpredictable - each point unrelated to the next - rather than simply
  part of a more complex sequence that requires knowledge of the initial
  conditions as well as the pattern/equation ?  With a human, you are
  dealing with an incredible number of environment variables and a slight
  oversight or miscalculation would lead to a prediction being widely off-
  course regardless of the accuracy of the rest of the operation.
  
  My bet ?
  
  1) When computers/models/people reach the point of being able to
     understand and predict the action of a complex system for more than a
     few iterations (eg., detail of weather systems, turbulence, many-body
     interaction) then the underlying patterns of human life will also become
     recognisable and understandable.
  
  2) The degree to which the eventual predictive methods will coincide with
     those used in Tarot/Astrology/Numerology/whatever will be of the same
     order as that of [for example] "traditional remedies" to those of 
     "modern medicine" at any particular point in time.
  
  Both of the above are IMHO / IMHE (E=Experience) / IMHU (U=Understanding).
  
  Frank
1600.30The 'Self' vs. the 'Cell' in studyDWOVAX::STARKA life of cautious abandonFri Jan 17 1992 16:0730
    re: physics vs. astrology texts
    
    	A closer analogy than physics might be psychology,
    	since most interpretations of Astrology contain a personality
    	model (usually the same basic model, as far as I've ever seen).
    
    	There are multiple schools of psychology, even within one
    	general branch of the subject.
    	
    	Laurie, the place where you're 'wrong' about Astrology, in my
    	opinion from what I've read so far here, is that you seem to believe 
    	that people who use it are neccessarily expecting to generate exact
    	predictions of future events, or distinctly identifiable behavioral 
    	patterns which can be reduced to existing well-established models, 
    	which is not from my experience the case with psychological models in
    	general.  They often resemble each other, but often cannot be
    	reduced to terms of each other without losing information.
    
    	The bottom line is that if you think a study with a highly subjective
    	component is worthless, then Astrology certainly fits easily
    	into that category.  Along with much of modern psychology, of course.
    	Especially the existential and humanistic lines, which are very
    	much intended to be subjective and personal in nature.
    
    	I don't share your value perspective, but I agree with your
    	conclusions based on that perspective.   
    
    							kind regards,
    
    							todd
1600.31HOCUS::FERGUSONWe might be laughing a bit too loudFri Jan 17 1992 20:2926
    I went over to the New York Astrology Center at lunchtime (nice place -
    it looks more like a library reading room than a bookstore).  The
    manager suggested two books to learn more about different house
    systems:
    
    Houses of the Horoscope by Bill Herbst (ISBN 0-917086-98-8)
    
    Horoscope Calculation by James A. Eshelman 
    
    I didn't buy the second one so I don't have an ISBN.  It appears to be
    a very mathematical book about how to derive the house positions in the
    different systems, but I didn't feel like brushing up on my algebra.
    
    The one I did buy looks like a primer for interpreting houses.  The
    stuff I've seen flipping through looks pretty straightforward and the
    author stresses that astrology is not an exact science, but an
    intuitive study of personality (of the astrologer as well as the person
    whose chart is being read).
    
    Now, can anybody recommend a basic astrology book?  This one is to be
    used in conjuction with a good basic book, of which the author feels
    there's already a glut on the market.
    
    Ginny
    
    
1600.32RUBY::PAY$FRETTSSpirit inspires/Will experiencesSun Jan 19 1992 21:5911
    
    Ginny,
    
    I like Steven Forrest's book "The Inner Sky".  The follow-up book
    "The Changing Sky" is also very good but more for the intermediate
    student.  Hands' "Horoscope Symbols" is very informative.  Sakoian's
    "The Astrologer's Handbook" gives a basic definition of the many
    aspects to a chart.  That would be a good start.
    
    role
    
1600.33HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 20 1992 08:4210
    Re .23

    >No, you are not wrong. Astrology is like religion: you have to try a
    >lot of "them" before you find one that you like. Likewise, you have to
    >read a LOT of books before you seperate the wheat from the chaffe.
    
    On what do you base your assumption that there is any wheat present in
    the chaff?

    Jamie.
1600.35HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 20 1992 12:168
    Wal you seem to have missed the point.
    
    You sort out what you assume is the wheat from the chaff, how do you
    know what you are left with is wheat and not chaff. You seem to use
    only subjective means of judgment and not objective. A sort of "if it
    feels right to me then it is wheat, if it doesn't then it is chaff."
    
    Jamie.
1600.37HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 20 1992 13:2110
    Again you missed my point.

    It seems that you approach astrology with the assumption that at least
    one of the systems must be valid. 

    Have you any basis for this assumption?

    Or is it possible that all they systems may be useless?

    Jamie.
1600.39HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveTue Jan 21 1992 12:2814
    Well wal I'm not sure if you are deliberately evading the question or
    are in some way incapable of understanding what I'm asking.

    To put it in its simplest form. You arrive at the subject of astrology
    with a preconceived assumption that one or more of the systems must
    work. 

    Why?

    Should your starting point not be some of these systems are false
    therefore there is a possibility that all of them are false. And then
    work up from there.

    Jamie.
1600.42Whee-tease, (Wheat-ties), we-tease Jamie...MISERY::WARD_FRMaking life a mystical adventureTue Jan 21 1992 15:058
    re: .41 (Wal)
    
         Maybe we can pitch in and by him some Chaff-stick for his
    lips.  
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
    
1600.43DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyTue Jan 21 1992 16:4530
(going back to Jamie's question [paraphrasing] of whether there is any wheat
amongst the astrology chaff)

In astrology, and many other divination methods (and psychic) phenomenon, there 
has been insufficient/inadequate scientific evaluation to allow for a truly
objective means of seperating wheat from chaff (IMHO).  Hence, wal, and many
others of us, have relied on subjective evaluation to find the wheat.

In some ways, this places astrology in with art; one can objectively measure
an artist's ability to reproduce a scene (realistic art) or convey a message 
(if everyone has the same "reaction" to the art object), but there are aspects
to artistry that are purely subjective.  Is an artist bad just because you
do not like the medium he uses to work in?

Psychology has attempted to define (objectively) ways to "predict" behavior
with the various personality models.  Psychic's use different methods to 
define/predict personality models.  Is one set any more accurate than the
other (I personally doubt it).

So although a field such as psychology can be accepted as "scientific", 
para-psychology does not seem to be.  Yet each explores similar things (the 
workings of the mind, and how our environment affects it), just with 
different tools.

(Medical science is only just beginning to accept that previously scorned
home remedies really do work, because medical science is only just now learning
enough about human anatomy to understand why they work).

Beth
1600.44Astrology is not part of parapsychology.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperTue Jan 21 1992 16:5714
    Just to clarify a bit.  Parapsychology, which studies principally ESP
    and PK, but not astrology (though it may provide an alternate
    explanation for the successes of some astrologers).  Parapsychology has
    produced objective evidence for such phenomenon which would be
    considered adequate (many, many times over) for less controversial
    hypotheses (according even to its staunchest knowledgable critics).
    The argument made by its critics is that its prior unliklihood requires
    that evidential standards much, much higher than is conventionally
    applied to ordinary hypotheses such as the non-absolute nature of
    space and time.  Correctly or incorrectly (a matter of philosophy of
    science) parapsychology is not part of mainstream science because of
    subjective rather than objective factors.

					Topher
1600.45Rubbush! - he criedWELLIN::NISBETDisarm yourself bombWed Jan 22 1992 10:4122
    Some years ago I went along to a lunchtime seminar given by Professor
    Forest, Chair of Parapsychology at the University of Edinburgh.

    If anything, I felt that he demonstrated an objectivity which is often
    lacking in other 'scientific' disciplines such as psychology. Since
    charlatans and hoaxers are undeniably behind many supposedly paranormal
    phenomena, Prof. Forest and his gang spent a great deal of time
    talking, analysing and documenting the work of the conmen. By
    eliminating the conmen, the phenomena left can be subjected to further
    scrutiny.

    90% of what I read in this conference, is in my opinion, baloney. Since
    this conference is here to discuss the paranormal, then it should be
    open to disbelievers, cynics, critics and anyone interested in the
    paranormal for whatever reason. 

    This reply is not addressed to anyone in particular. Indeed, I'm not
    even sure what it is doing in this topic.

    Dougie
    

1600.46Correction to -.1WELLIN::NISBETDisarm yourself bombWed Jan 22 1992 15:179
    He is, off course, Professor Morris, Of the Keostler chair of
    Parasychology.
    
    Thanks Topher,
    
    Dougie
    
    PS: I also spelt Rubbish wrong. I spelt it in Scottish.
    
1600.47rubbush...ZENDIA::LARUGoin' to GracelandWed Jan 22 1992 15:209
1600.49Rhetoric AlertWELLIN::NISBETDisarm yourself bombThu Jan 23 1992 12:3386
   <<< Note 1600.48 by HAMER::MONTALVO "dwaji -- i like the sound of that" >>>
                         -< hachet job on astrology? >-

    
0-+>    90% of what I read in this conference, is in my opinion, baloney.
    
0-+>	By eliminating the conmen, the phenomena left can be subjected to 
    	further scrutiny.
    
    	Who shall do the scrutinizing? 
    
Who indeed. The department of parasychology are just as entitled to
study the paranormal as anyone else. 

	And are you willing to accept the opinions of others so readily? 
        
Some people I do, yes.

        Will you let your car mechanic operate on your body?
    
No. Where is all this leading, as a matter of interest? Am I walking
into some sort of intellectual trap? I haven't actually read your note
yet, so I'm going into this blind :-} 
    
    	Dougie, i would like to know about YOUR experiences. 

Would you indeed. Perhaps I haven't had any. Is this relevant?

	My contention to the former statement is that so very few people are
	willing to share their experiences! So many are willing to
	condemn without	having any experience to backup their statements.
	Intellectualism	will always attack 4th body experiences.
    
I have to say that I see little condemnation from the critics in this
conference. I see a lot of questions, a lot of interest, and a fair
bit of cynicism. All other subjects seem to be able to survive this;
so why not the paranormal? In case you misunderstand my intention, I
am not condemning anything in this conference; but I do think most of
it is baloney. There is not a contradiction here.

    	As to astrology, has someone gone through "it" to invalidate it's
    	claims? 

I don't know. Have they? In case you haven't guessed yet, I hate
rhetoric.

        [ ... ]

    My question is, when something traumatic happens in someone's life,
    what will that person do??? When some experience outside HIS/HER norm
    expires, what will that person do???
    
    Jung, Adler, and Freud are not going to help when you lose your job,
    house, or spouse. Nor is your guru going to be of much help.
    
    And if 90% is iyo rubbish, the why waste time and life? If anyone is
    at all enlightened then he should be sharing. Can anyone change anyone
    else's mind? NO. No. No. Never. 
    
I'm beginning to lose the thread a bit here. 90% of this conference is
probably indeed rubbish in my opinion. However, that makes it none the
less interesting. One can be interested in a subject without being a
participant. 

    One can not change others.
    
I'm not so sure about that.

    One can only change oneself.
    
    There is no path to truth, or to GOD.
    
    One must hatchet through the forest of life. ALONE.
    
    astrology is just ONE of my hachets. i also carry rope, fire, food,
    a knife, a saw, etc. {no, i didn't forget the toilet paper.
    smart-alecks  :-) }.

Fair enough. I was interested in Astrology some years ago. I read
about it, tried it, and decided that it was daft. This does not mean I
have lost any interest in it.

      -not-so-tough-wal
    
Dougie

1600.50some clarification please ?DWOVAX::STARKA life of cautious abandonThu Jan 23 1992 15:2313
    re: .48, wal,
    
>	Intellectualism
>    	will always attack 4th body experiences.
    
    	Are you saying that rationalists will always attack
    	mystical explanations, and deny the significance of 4th body
    	experiences ?   That's sort of a definition, isn't it ?
    	I'm not quite clear on what you were trying to say, could you
    	please clarify ?   Do you think that Astrology is dependent 
    	upon specific types of mystical experience for its proper application ?
    
    							todd
1600.53IMHO, too harsh a judgement.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperThu Jan 23 1992 16:4233
    There are different criteria for judging truth/validity/utility
    which people use.  For example there has recently been a criteria
    conflict in another thread concerning the relevance of the placebo
    effect.  To some, that a phenomenon can be explained by the placebo
    effect means that it isn't real.  To others that the phenomenon might
    work by the (not fully understood) mechanism of the placebo effect
    is irrelevant -- if it works it works.  Something which is not
    objectively true may still work, or be inspirational, or make one feel
    good, or help you pick up chicks/hunks, or make the world seem more
    secure and orderly, or whatever.

    I am, of course, firmly wedded to my own criteria for "judging" truth.
    But included in that personal criteria happens to be enough
    "relativism" to recognize that what I consider baloney is baloney
    only relative to my (obviously superior :-)) criteria for recognizing
    baloney.  What is unquestionably baloney from my viewpoint really
    is *not* baloney from anothers.

    What does this mean.  To say that 90% of the stuff in this conference
    is baloney, goes too far (IMHO) even with an IMHO tacked on.  Why?
    Because it implies that some things (other than luncheon meat) really
    are intrinsically baloney and the subjective factors (Humble Opinions)
    come into the issue in making the judgement as to whether or not
    something actually falls into that class.

    Better to say that "90% of the stuff in this conference is baloney to
    me".

    Anyway, that's how it seems to me from my perspective.  (Besides
    according to Sturgeon's Law -- "95% of anything is crap" -- only
    90% baloney is ahead of the game).

				    Topher
1600.54Silly Salami and other local denizensDWOVAX::STARKA life of cautious abandonThu Jan 23 1992 17:1117
>    Better to say that "90% of the stuff in this conference is baloney to
>    me".
>
>    Anyway, that's how it seems to me from my perspective.  (Besides
>    according to Sturgeon's Law -- "95% of anything is crap" -- only
>    90% baloney is ahead of the game).
    
    So 95% is crap and 90% is baloney.  How much of the 5% non-crap
    is also non-baloney ?  How much of the 10% non-baloney is also
    non-crap ?   How much is crappy baloney ?  Should be on sale 
    this week !
    
    Speaking of crappy baloney, anybody catch any of that show on U.S. TV 
    hosted by Bill Bixby on the mystery of missing Elvis ?   What an embarrasing
    culture I live in.  :*)
    
    							todd
1600.55er, um, yeah - right! (i think)WELLIN::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Thu Jan 23 1992 17:2230
             <<< Note 1600.53 by CADSYS::COOPER "Topher Cooper" >>>
                       -< IMHO, too harsh a judgement. >-

    [ ... ]

    What does this mean.  To say that 90% of the stuff in this conference
    is baloney, goes too far (IMHO) even with an IMHO tacked on.  
    
But it is what I think, it's my opinion, and I expressed it as such.

    Why?
    Because it implies that some things (other than luncheon meat) really
    are intrinsically baloney and the subjective factors (Humble Opinions)
    come into the issue in making the judgement as to whether or not
    something actually falls into that class.

I don't understand.

    Better to say that "90% of the stuff in this conference is baloney to
    me".

Well, yes. It's the same thing, isn't it?
                                         
    [ ... ]

				    Topher

Dougie, who's head is beginning to nip a bit.


1600.56Hyeeeaahh Hyeeeaaaa - Order orderWELLIN::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Thu Jan 23 1992 17:3246
            <<< Note 1600.52 by AKOFIN::WATSON "Some like it not" >>>
                                     -< ? >-


 >I
 >am not condemning anything in this conference; but I do think most of
 >it is baloney. There is not a contradiction here.

 You walk into a resturant, take a look at the menu, maybe you order something,
 and then upon leaving proclaim that, though you aren't condemning anything in
 that resturant, you still think most of the food is baloney.

 No contradiction?

None whatsoever. 

 >Fair enough. I was interested in Astrology some years ago. I read
 >about it, tried it, and decided that it was daft. This does not mean I
 >have lost any interest in it.

 It's good that you read about it and tried it, but why maintain interest in
 something you consider daft?

 Cliff

Goody! Analogy time...

I am fascinated by the people in government who run the country in which I
live. I think that many of the politicians are rather unpleasant people,
and when I watch the House of Commons debates on TV, I don't know whether
to laugh or cry. I am, however, deeply interested in many things discussed,
whether or not they are relevant to me directly.

Where that analogy breaks down regarding this conference, is that I don't
like most politicians, whereas I have no reason to and indeed do not
dislike anyone in this conference.  People can believe anything they want,
(my wife is a Roman Catholic - I think religion is completely silly, and I
love Roberta to bits), but if they start waving it in front of other
peoples noses, then people from all sorts of backgrounds and attitudes are
likely to be interested. 

Cheers m'dears,

Dougie

     
1600.57Subtle but important distinction.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperThu Jan 23 1992 17:5720
RE: .55 (Dougie, who's head is beginning to nip a bit.)

>But it is what I think, it's my opinion, and I expressed it as such.

    Of course, and I was expressing *my* opinion by disagreeing with you --
    or rather with what you said.

>Well, yes. It's the same thing, isn't it?

    Not at all.  My version expressed a judgement as to the value of 90% of
    the stuff in the conference *to you*.  Your version expressed your
    judgement ("Humble Opinion") as to the value of 90% of the stuff in the
    conference for everybody (i.e., its absolute or intrinsic value).

    From your posts, I kinda suspect that the former is what you really
    intended to convey -- which is why I brought it up.  Your further
    postings reinforce that suspicion.  What you said came across, at least
    to me, as a criticism of others for their beliefs.

					    Topher
1600.58HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveFri Jan 24 1992 12:0637
    Re .40

    >instead of my trying to defend my position -- please tell me what YOU
    >use, and why? is it so easy to defend your position? what difference
    >does it make? if you feel that all systems are false then they are 
    >false and I can't change your mind. if you think they are all valid,
    >then they are, and again, I can not change your mind.

    When I was 12 I went to secondary school and started to learn science
    and mathematics. In these subjects the teachers made some, for me then,
    pretty wild claims. They justified these claims with experiments and
    proofs. We were regularly expected to challenge these. Occasionally
    they would deliberately try to sneak one past us by giving us an old,
    apparently valid, theory and see if we would swallow it, they never
    succeeded.

    The result of this is I am incapable of accepting anything as a fact
    without some form of back up. Thus I approach astrology with the view
    that it is all bunkum. To test the validity of this, over the years I
    found several people who profess to be competent in astrology and ask
    them to run predictions on me and two others who are total strangers to
    them.

    They regularly get some of the past on me correct but never get
    anywhere the truth on the other two. Given the fact that they know me
    and know nothing of the other pair, this is to be expected.

    The predictions for the future tend to be in the "catch all" variety,
    that is they are so vague that one of several conditions could be
    construed as a correct outcome.

    In general they do not exceed what could be covered by chance.

    Thus I assume that if there is any wheat present it is in very small
    quantities and very well hidden in a mountain of chaff.

    Jamie.
1600.59Snaking through life.....SWAM1::MILLS_MATo Thine own self be TrueFri Jan 24 1992 15:4820
    
    Re. -1 Jamie,
    
    >The result of this is I am incapable of accepting anything as fact
    without some form of backup.
    
    I read your "Snake" entry in the notesfile you referenced last week.
    Aside from being a very interesting narrative (you have a terrific
    style of writing) I was very intrigued by The Weird part. I won't spoil
    it for those who are interested but have yet to read it. However,
    since I must assume that you have not been able to duplicate that
    experience through experimentation, do you not consider it as fact that
    it occurred? Given that you don't rely on experience to back up
    reality, how do you account for your Snake experience?
    
    If this would rathole this particular note too much, this reply may be
    moved to another note of its own.
    
    
    Marilyn
1600.60The Anderson TapesWELCLU::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Fri Jan 24 1992 16:295
    What I find strange is the way that no matter how obscure a conference
    one selects, Jamie has already been there. Now that IS wierd.
    
    Dougie
    
1600.61SWAM1::DOTHARD_STPLAYTOEFri Jan 24 1992 21:2256
    
    There are several types of Astrology.  Prognostication, or Future
    Telling, has always been a skeptical science.  The fact is, there's no
    grounds for it's accuracy.  The Procession of the Equinoxes is a 25000
    year cycle, during which the stars are never in the same position. 
    They planets may be the same but the age would've changed.  It's,
    therefore, impossible to say with any exactitude what will be.
    
    Natal Astrology, is another story.  It analyses actual positions at
    one's birth.   It is based upon years of comparisons.  I accept it as a
    valid study, but it's finding only account for 1/3 of our personality. 
    The other 1/3 is the elemental influence of being in the flesh, or our
    nature, the stars can't change that fact.  The other 1/3 consists of
    our acculturated learning, or the influences that society places upon
    us.  Combine all three and you get the sum total of what God has placed
    upon you...God created the world/environment/stars, set us in a place/a
    specific world/elemental body, and did so at a specific time/cultural
    experience.
    
    Some question the validity of the idea that radiation from stars effect
    our personality...I no longer question this reality.  It is a
    scientific fact that our atmosphere has a finite number of atoms and
    molecules in it (until the ozone hole developed anyway), however that
    the nature of those atoms and molecules change as our planet comes into
    proximity of different stars...one group is pushed out as the new
    pushes in, call it the "cusp" effect.  
    
    The ancients identified the constellations of the zodiac.  Moreso, they
    pointed out specific stars in each constellation, stars which modern
    science has found to represent certain powerful radiations.  
    
    All I'm saying is that the monthly changing of signs is supported as a
    valid conception.
    
    We, humans, being made up of 80% water or so, only have to look at the
    effect of the Moon on the tides to perceive the possibility of stars
    influencing our personality.  The Moon is only reflecting the light of
    the sun.  It is also known by science, that of the particles of energy
    from stars that DO penetrate our atmosphere, some lodge in matter, the
    earth our bodies, our brains, others can move right through the whole
    earth and leave out on the other side.  
    
    Now, the real idea of Natal Astrology is borne on the fact that a new
    born babe upon it's first breath, takes it's deepest breath and in the
    intake causes particles to lodge the deepest in the brain, or in the
    soul.  This event is the beginning of the earthly cycles for that
    individual.  Also, from that point on, no particles will make a more
    deeper impression on the children.  Thus, the initial breath intake
    forms the foundation of the individual's personality, from which the
    person always expresses and never questions, it is the self which we
    all take for granted.
    
    Astrology, from the Natal standpoint, is verified as a valid science in
    the bible, I mean didn't the wise men say "We saw his star in the sky"!
    
    Playtoe
1600.62HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 27 1992 05:1023
    Re .59

    If you dig through the research papers on cyclosporine you will find a
    few references to massive doses causing hallucinations. At that point
    in my treatment my immune system had to be as inactive as possible and
    cyclosporine level in my blood was very high. I was not in possession of
    that information when I wrote the story, however I did point out that I
    was not exactly rational at the time. 

    Amongst the other nasty side effects of cyclosporine, even in moderate
    doses, is damage to the kidneys and liver. Thus although I might be
    interested in repeating the experiment it would be very dangerous to
    do, as you no doubt remember all my body functions were being carefully
    monitored, I do not have that equipment or for that matter a "clean
    room". 

    The cost would also be several thousand Guilders, as the stuff retails
    at $5 per cc, my maintenance dosage is 2.5 cc per day the dosage used
    during and immediately post op are much higher.

    So curious as I am I must pass on this one.

    Jamie.
1600.63WELLIN::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Mon Jan 27 1992 07:2216
    Re: .62

    From what I understand from your experience, it is irrelevant that you
    were stoned and/or hallucinating. You mentioned the black girl in
    detail, but could not have known in advance about the donor. 

    The drugs and hallucination are irrelevant. It's whether there was
    anyway you could have acquired the information you did before getting
    the news from Harry.

    Sorry to get so personal in an unrelated topic/rathole. I feel you're
    not necessarily applying your usual objectivity to your own experience.
    And I'm not reading all 'that bloody note' again to check my facts.

    Dougie

1600.64HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 27 1992 07:4214
    What I experienced during the op is still not fully explained. The face
    of the black girl on the door after the op however was a hallucination.
    
    From the subjective point they were both equally real to me. If one was
    a hallucination then the other is equally likely to be one. 

    When they operate these days they give you a muscle relaxant and light
    anesthetic, in my case this would be in the early stages. Patients
    often "dream" what they hear going on round about them. One or two
    words from the surgical team would have been all that was needed.

    Terribly mundane I agree but a possible theory.
    
    Jamie.
1600.66HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveMon Jan 27 1992 13:2932
    But wal I have tried it. I have found astrology wanting, Tarot cards
    have fascinated several of my friends who have predicted things that
    sometimes came to pass and sometimes didn't, about equal to random
    chance.

    Palmistry I have also tried and found wanting.

    Facial characteristics would not help as the face that I see in the
    mirror is not mine. It comes from a taking steroids every day and looks
    very different from what I should look like.

    I seriously believe that, as the future has not happened, and there
    are so many uncontrolled factors which influence it, it is impossible
    to do anything more than guess at what will happen.

    Certain things are bound to happen, for example tomorrow the sun will
    warm this side of the planet between certain hours, tides will ebb and
    flow. But expecting detailed analysis of the events of our lives is
    stretching the imagination to the limit.

    Of all the readings, horoscopes, and goodness knows what, that have ever
    been done on me, not one said that I would be very gravely ill and near
    to death. They predicted many things but never that, of course the fact
    that until a few months before I was ill I looked fit and healthy may
    have mislead them.

    On the other hand you seem desperate to cling to any straw that lets
    you think that you can see into the future. Is there any possibility
    that you may be deluding yourself?
                    
    Jamie.
                                    
1600.67trying thingsTNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicMon Jan 27 1992 18:519
    
    Re.66
    
    Jamie,
    
    Given that you've tried all those things, would you be willing - or
    have you already tried - the breathing exercises?
         
    Cindy
1600.69Without checking, who knows the truthESMAIL::ESOMSTrusting in the UniverseMon Jan 27 1992 20:438
    Jamie,
    
    Back to the Snake experience.  I wonder how far you actually
    went to find out if the donor looked like the visions of the
    woman you hallucinated.  Might surprise you to find that they
    might be one and the same.  
    
    Joanne
1600.70HOO78C::ANDERSONHappily excited, bright, attractiveWed Jan 29 1992 06:3441
    Re Cindy, yes I tried and nothing happened. But I must admit that as I
    can see no reason why which of two entrances the air takes on its way
    to my lungs can influence anything, this is to be expected. Your
    nostrils are not even very directional, that is you don't use them like
    your eyes or ears to locate a source. Watch someone trying to find the
    source of a smell and compare it with them listening to detect the
    source of a noise. 
    
    May I inquire if you tried a double blind test with some friends to
    prove your claim, or do you rely on others to prove it false?

    Re .69

    Rightly or wrongly there is a big barrier erected between donor and
    recipient by the medical field. This is done to protect both sides. I
    am unsure how I would react to the nearest and dearest of my donor and
    I am equally uncertain how they would react to me.  

    Before I became a recipient I was also a donor, of both blood and
    sperm. Now the blood caused me no problems, but barrier against me and
    my offspring ever knowingly coming into contact is a wise one. Several
    people have used artificial insemination where the donor and recipient
    knew each other and the result was messy court cases.

    >I wonder how far you actually went to find out if the donor looked
    >like the visions of the woman you hallucinated. 

    In the first place Harry was given the information by accident, a
    colleague viewed him in his professional capacity rather than his
    personal one and thus seriously breached a medical confidence. I did
    later try to find out more, but even with Harry's help, I ran into a
    brick wall.

    >Might surprise you to find that they might be one and the same. 

    I can assure you that it would in no way surprise me. If you have never
    experienced a hallucination you can have no idea just how real they
    seem.

    Jamie.
               
1600.71WELLIN::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Wed Jan 29 1992 12:2016
    >I wonder how far you actually went to find out if the donor looked
    >like the visions of the woman you hallucinated. 

    In the first place Harry was given the information by accident, a
    colleague viewed him in his professional capacity rather than his
    personal one and thus seriously breached a medical confidence. I did
    later try to find out more, but even with Harry's help, I ran into a
    brick wall.
    
Why did Harry try and help you find out who the donor was? It sounds as if
he wasn't behaving very professionaly there. Why would a colleague be
breaching a medical confidence by confiding such information?

Dougie


1600.72HOO78C::ANDERSONTo err is human, but feels divine.Wed Jan 29 1992 13:2022
    Harry received the information from one of the transplant team who knew
    him as a doctor and was discussing the case in a detached professional
    manner, he was unaware, at that point, that there was any connection
    between Harry and the patient, me. He should really have made sure of
    this before discussing it with Harry. Medical ethics are a bit
    difficult when the patient is the nearest and dearest to a doctor.

    I attempted to find out and ran into a stone wall. Harry made discreet
    inquiries and found that they had thought of that too and erected a
    wall there. Had Harry been able to get the information this in itself
    would not have been a breach of ethics, what he then did with the
    information, had he received it, might well have been.

    For example he regularly discusses with me cases which go through his
    hands, but on the few occasions that I actually know the patient he
    clams up tight. There will be the odd one or two of you out there
    wondering about this and perhaps I should point out that most of a
    Pathologists patients are alive, only a small percentage turn up for
    postmortems. 

    Jamie.
          
1600.73WELLIN::NISBETDougie Nisbet@WLO - DTN: 853 4334Wed Jan 29 1992 13:5022
  <<< Note 1600.72 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "To err is human, but feels divine." >>>

    Harry received the information from one of the transplant team who knew
    him as a doctor and was discussing the case in a detached professional
    manner, he was unaware, at that point, that there was any connection
    between Harry and the patient, me. He should really have made sure of
    this before discussing it with Harry. Medical ethics are a bit
    difficult when the patient is the nearest and dearest to a doctor.
    
Two things;

Couldn't Harry asked the Doctor to shut up when he realised the
significance of what was being said?

If you feel that it is the duty of a doctor to check whether a fellow
professional has any connection with a patient, then I think this is an
unrealistic expectation. I doubt whether it happens much in practice.
Whether or not it should is a moot point.

Dougie


1600.74HOO78C::ANDERSONTo err is human, but feels divine.Wed Jan 29 1992 13:5916
    >Couldn't Harry asked the Doctor to shut up when he realised the
    >significance of what was being said?

    As I was in a very bad state at the time and they were in real danger
    of losing me I don't really think that Harry's mind was working in its
    normal detached professional manner. Anyway by the time he had the
    information it was already too late.

    As I pointed out medical ethics become very tricky when you have a
    Doctor who is closely involved with the patient. That is on of the
    reasons doctors tend to avoid treating their friends.

    I think that they tend to work it out on a case by case basis as best
    they can.
                               
    Jamie.
1600.75heavy breathing, etc.TNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicWed Jan 29 1992 19:4714
                                        
    Re.70
    
    Jamie,
    
    It's hard to do a double blind test when determining relative states of
    consciousness.  The breath pops me into different states of awareness,
    and it's a repeatable event too. I guess my friends could watch the 
    resulting expressions on my face or something.  (;^) 
    
    However, I'm sure you were referring to some other kind of result that
    you can measure...what was it again?
    
    Cindy
1600.76HOO78C::ANDERSONTo err is human, but feels divine.Thu Jan 30 1992 05:0514
    Re .75
    
    Cindy, it is impossible to do a double blind test with just one subject.
    
    However I have already explained how this whole issue could be easily
    settled. But as it would most likely prove that there is no difference
    which nostril you breath through, they are most unlikely to try it.

    They will continue to come up with more of the vague, hazy tests like
    they have performed so far which prove nothing, while carefully avoiding
    any sort of test that may prove them wrong. Sadly it is an oft repeated
    pattern.

    Jamie.
1600.77assumptions assumptionsTNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicThu Jan 30 1992 14:2914
                                                                       
    Re.76
    
    Jamie,
    
    You assume so much.  You haven't even contacted any of the people to
    see if they would participate in such an experiment.  If you contact
    them and then they refuse, then your point would hold some validity. 
    But you won't...why is that?  
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. I'm happy to participate, btw, if you'll fund it and make
        arrangements.  Now you have at least one willing subject.  (;^)
1600.78ESMAIL::ESOMSTrusting in the UniverseThu Jan 30 1992 15:0310
    .74
    
    Jamie,
    
    Since Harry did know the doctor involved, you could assume
    the donor came from the area.  Just check newspapers to see
    who died.  Often pictures accompany the death notice.  No
    need to contact the family.
    
    Joanne Peachwall
1600.79HOO78C::ANDERSONTo err is human, but feels divine.Fri Jan 31 1992 05:2912
    The doctor who was speaking to Harry was one of the local transplant
    team and did not know any details about the donor other than those
    which accompanied the organ. The heart came from Germany (then west
    Germany) which has a population of some 61 million. Also the donor had
    been kept alive on a life support machine for a period unknown to me.

    I suppose that I could read all the death notices for that country for
    the few days round the 11 of January, I am unsure of the custom in
    Germany but in Holland and the UK pictures of the deceased seldom, if
    ever, are included in the death notice so it wouldn't help.

    Jamie.
1600.80RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticTue Feb 11 1992 11:1273
    
    
    One of the national astrological organizations (NCGR - National
    Council for Geocosmic Research) provides a four-level testing
    program for certification of astrologers.  I am entering the list
    of topics for each test level, for those who are interested.  I
    hope to take Level I and II tests this year.
    
    Level I
    -------
    . Simplified Astronomy - solar system, planetary cycles, the ecliptic,
      eclipses and lunations, seasons and solstices.
    . Principles of Calculation - how to read an ephemeris and tables of
      houses, formula for calculating house cusps, explanation of different
      kinds to times (sidereal, clock, longitudinal), factors within the
      chart that might help determine its accuracy.
    . Natal Calculation.
    . Planets - including dignities, debilities and retrograde motion.
    . Signs - including elements, modes and polarities.
    . Houses.
    . Derived Houses.
    . Patterns and Hemisphere Emphasis.
    . Planets in Houses.
    . Aspects.
    . Major Configurations.
    . Delineation of Natal Charts.
    
    
    Level II
    --------
    . Planets - review meaning and cycles of planets; mutual reception,
      final dispositor, decanates, antiscia.
    . Minor Aspects - including parallels and contraparallels.
    . Transits.
    . Progressions.
    . Lunar and Planetary Phases.
    . Fixed Stars.
    . Mundane - including Ingress charts, Eclipses, Lunations and
      Planetary conjunctions.
    . Asteroids and Chiron.
    . House Systems.
    . Astronomy - including spherical coodinate systems, declinations,
      the meridian, planetary nodes, etc.
    . Level II Math - progressions including the Adjusted Calculation
      Date, Vertex, Equatorial Ascendant, Solar Arc Direction,
      Declineations, Antiscia.
    
    Level III
    ---------
    . 360 degree Dial.
    . 90 degree Dial.
    . Mundane Astrology - political astrology, astro-seismology, etc.
    . Synastry - chart comparison, synastry and the 90 degree dial,
      composite charts, etc.  Solar returns.
    . Horary Astrology.
    . Electional Astrology.
    . History of Astrology.
    . Level III Math - calculation of solar returns, calculation of
      composite chart.
    
    Level IV
    --------
    . Rectification.
    . Basics of Statistical Research.
    . Basics of General Research.
    . Applied Statistical Research - a look at actual projects.
    . Applied General Research - a look at actual projects.
    . Consulting.
    
    
    
    
    Carole
1600.81?DWOVAX::STARKan eagle, to the seaTue Feb 11 1992 12:106
    Hi Carole, 
    	Are there different occupations or activities associated with
    the different levels of training in this ?   _Geocosmic_research_
    seemes to imply a lot.
    
    							todd
1600.82ATSE::FLAHERTYThat's enough for me...Tue Feb 11 1992 13:257
    Carole,
    
    Thanks for that info on levels, very interesting.  Best wishes as you
    take your exams...know you'll pass with flying colors.
    
    Roey
    
1600.83RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticTue Feb 11 1992 13:4223
    
    
    Thanks Roey! ;^)
    
    
    Todd, the testing process requires a person to pass all four testing
    levels before the organization will certify you.  It is really an
    intense test!  There are some astrologers who feel that the testing
    should be split apart so that those interested in counseling would
    focus on those aspects that apply to their work, or those interested
    in mundane or research projects would focus on those pieces, etc.
    In my case, I do not plan to do astrological research so it is really
    a waste of time for me to study up on those topics and take the test.
    It won't reflect my ability to do the type of astrology that I want
    to do.  But NCGR is a highly respected organization and passing these
    tests carries some weight in the astrological community.  They provide
    a study guide and present classes specifically focused on the testing
    program at their yearly conferences.
    
    I can give you the address if you are interested in finding out more
    about the organization.
    
    Carole
1600.84RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticTue Feb 11 1992 13:4510
    
    Todd, I just realized that you asked a different question than I 
    anwered!  These project test plans are eating away at my brain! %^(
    
    I assume that most members of NCGR are astrologers, as their 
    literature and conferences deal with astrology most of the time.
    But what they do is cover a lot of astrological territory.  Many of
    the more respected astrological researchers are members of NCGR.
    
    Carole
1600.85What does 'astrological territory' cover ?DWOVAX::STARKan eagle, to the seaTue Feb 11 1992 14:2814
    re: .83,.84,
    	Thanks, Carole.  The questions related to both of your
    responses.  Your detailed description of the levels made me
    think that these certified people must have a variety of uses
    for their learnings.  I was wondering what kind of applications
    'astrological territory' tends to cover.  
    
    I'm only familiar with the most popular ones like newspaper horoscopes and
    phone lines and the ads in various magazines offering to
    interpret charts.   ANd I tend to think that these may not be the most
    highly prized application of the principles according to the
    perspective of certified Astrologers themselves.
    
    							todd
1600.86&^)ROYALT::NIKOLOFFRuby-JOYTue Feb 11 1992 15:546
	Hello Carole,

	   Just wanted to check-in and say "good luck" and have
fun at it.

	love, Mikki (who wants you to remember you are one of the best!)
1600.87RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticTue Feb 11 1992 16:036
    
    
    Thanks Mikki! 
    
    Love,
    Carole
1600.89OFFSHR::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticThu Mar 05 1992 13:2520
    
    -wal
    
    I'll have to take a look for that book the next time I'm at the
    Unicorn Bookstore.
    
    3 books I would like to recommend are:
    
    	. Jungian Symbolism in Astrology
    
    	. Jungian Synchronicity in Astrological Signs and Ages
    
          These 2 books are authored by Alice O. Howell.  Really
          wonderful books.
    
        . Aspects in Astrology, by Sue Tompkins.  Best aspects book I've
          found.
    
    
    	Carole
1600.91RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticMon Mar 16 1992 19:179
    
    Hi -wal,
    
    Moon in the 8th = problems with father.....hmmmm, I'll have to ponder
    on that one!
    
    I can add a bit from the Jungian books.  Will do so shortly.
    
    Carole
1600.92RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticMon Mar 16 1992 19:3864
    
         A quote from Jung....from Jungian Symbolism in Astrology...    
    
    
    	"We have no symbolic life.  Where do we live symbolically?
    	 Nowhere, except where we participate in the ritual of life.
    	 But who, among many, are really participating in the ritual
         of life?  Very few....
    
         Have you got a corner somewhere in your house where you perform
    	 the rites, as you can see in India?  Even the very simple 
         houses have at least a curtained corner where the members of
    	 the household can lead a symbolic life, where they can make
         their new vows or meditation.  We don't have it.  We have no
         such corner....
    
    	 Only the symbolic life can express the need of the soul - the
    	 daily need of the soul, mind you!  And because people have no
    	 such thing, they can never step out of this mill - this awful,
    	 grinding, banal life in which they are "nothing but"...and that
    	 is the reason why people are neurotic....Life is too rational,
    	 there is no symbolic existence in which I am something else, in
    	 which I am fulfilling my role, as one of the actors in the divine
    	 drama of life."
    
    
    						Carl Jung
    						Collected Works
    
    
    From Alice Howell's "Jungian Symbolism in Astrology"....
    
    
    Alice writes the book in the form of letters to a friend and is
    sharing about symbols and glyphs, in particular the symbol of the Sun...
    
    "I have tried to introduce a number of images which cluster around and
     amplify the solar process associated with the Life-Light-Love aspect
     of the ongoing creating Spirit.  Naturally, such a process was from
     the beginning divine and is no less divine for being in us.
    
     Here again we can miss the point by taking these images literally,
     seeing God only as Father, and Christ only as his "only begotten Son."
     How else could one express and imply the love existing between God
     and this extension of himself which we all are except in terms of a
     family?  But the real implication in terms of 'process' is that this
     divine Light-Life is in each of us but we don't 'comprehend' it, we
     are not conscious of it.  Yet we live and love by this Light and
     stand to see it in each other.  For Hindus it is called Atman; for
     Christian mystics, the Christ Within; for Sufis, the Divine Guest;
     and for Jung, it is safe to say, the Self.
    
     So I assign you, dearest friend, on your birthday to find a quiet
     spot and therein to meditate with body, mind, and soul on this
     mystery of Spirit, which clothed itself so beautifully when it
     incarnated in you.  Feel it beating in your heart, know the many
     ways it passes through you physically, mentally, and emotionally
     leading you always to greater understanding and deeper awe at the
     wonder and mystery of being.
    
     God dwells in you as You."
    
    
     Carole
1600.94RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticWed Mar 18 1992 11:4667
    
    RE: 1600.93 

    Hi -wally,
    
    Here's some feedback on what you entered from the Hilarion book...
    
    >ascendant:
    >saggittarius:
    >often delays marriage or causes there to be more than one marriage-like
    >relationship.
    
    This could relate to the description of true Sagittarius being freedom
    loving and needing to seek out new experiences.  I know a few Sagittarius
    rising people who have married young, but all have divorced.  One is
    remarried.

    >m.c.:
    >virgo:
    >the soul has at least one extremely important lesson to learn in this
    >life. the key is saturn, by house and/or sign. this planet will
    >designate a learning area of utmost importance to the soul.
    
    Hmmm....this is interesting.  I have felt for awhile that Saturn is a
    much more natural fit as ruler of Virgo than Mercury is.  Saturn is
    known as the teacher of the zodiac, though the lessons are not always
    easy.  Learning to acknowledge, own and work with our Saturnian lessons
    can be a life-long journey.

    >aspects:
    >when saturn is aspecting the SUN, there will always be a problem with
    >the person in dealing with one of the parental figures. same for the 
    >moon.
    
    Generally, the Sun represents the father figure and the Moon represents
    the Mother figure.  Saturn can represent any person of authority in the
    life.

    >SUN in fourth house:
    >one of the parents will have a dominant influence on him, and this will
    >produce "programs" in the subconscious which leads to problems in
    >adulthood. there is a tendency to cling to that which has outworn its
    >usefulness or appropriateness. 
    
    The 4th and 10th houses are the parental axis.  The Sun represents our
    essential being, and it's position and aspects to it can tell us something
    about our early childhood.  The 4th house is the home environment, but 
    also represents the past, our history, and the deepest part of ourselves.
    Dwelling on the past would not be surprising with Sun in the 4th.

    >Moon in eighth house:
    >an absence of the ability to feel love.
    
    Hmmm....I'll have to think about this.  The 8th house represents our
    intimate relationships, among other things, and the Moon represents our 
    feeling, emotional natures.  Not sure where the 'absence' comes from.

    >sun in scorpio:
    >killed himself as an act of aonement for some act which he regarded as
    >horrible and detestable.
    
    Well, the Sun represents the 'self' and Scorpio can indicate an urge
    to transform (death/rebirth), so I guess one could come up with a
    story such as the above....however, I wouldn't.


    Carole    
1600.96DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyWed Mar 18 1992 18:2410
>a Virgo ascendant person

Meaning someone whose sign is Virgo?  If so, that sounds kind familiar (being
lent "powers" or gifts.  There have been times, when doing something, that I
suddenly feel that others are lending me their energy, all without my asking.
And the positive emotional support that comes with the gifts is awesome.  But
not all my powers are borrowed ;-)

Beth
1600.97Having a Grand Trine, wish you were here!MRKTNG::MILLETTWed Mar 18 1992 18:518
    I hope this is the right place to find out about a
    Grand Trine in my natal horoscope. I'm Libra
    October 13, '47, 5:25 a.m. New Jersey.  The guy who did the casting said he
    had only seen 3 of these in his career - but didn't give much in the
    way of useful details.  What does this portend? 
    
    Can anyone explain?
    
1600.98RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticWed Mar 18 1992 19:0124
    RE: .95 -wal
    
    
    >this book says that a Virgo ascendant person has been "loaned" certain
    >gifts from other spirits which in this present incarnation it would
    >need to survive and grow. it is a gift because of some meritous act.
    
    Generally Virgo is seen as having a strong sense of duty and a desire
    to serve, so the idea of the person having done a meritous act fits in
    with the archetype.
    
    >therefore the karma-planet, saturn would therefore be important.
    
    Yes, however everyone has Saturn in their chart, plus karma could be
    reflected by any of the other placements in the chart.
    
    >as to the scorpio person: the book says that an Aries person died in
    >a past incarnation by being couragous; that a pisces committed suicide
    >because it couldn't cope. 
    
    These are very standard, general definitions of these signs.
    
    
    Carole    
1600.99RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticWed Mar 18 1992 19:0410
    
    Hi Beth,
    
    The Virgo Ascendant is different than Virgo Sun.  The ascendant is the
    sign that was on the horizon at the time and location where you were
    born.  It is the energy with which you greet the world....your persona
    or mask.  Your physical appearance can also be influenced by the 
    ascendant (or rising) sign.
    
    Carole
1600.101GUCCI::SMILLERWed Mar 18 1992 19:136
    i have a grand water trine (not sure which houses).
    i am a scorpio, my rising sign is sagitarius (sp). Born 10-31-65 at
    9:55 a.m.
    
    shannon
    
1600.102HOCUS::FERGUSONlive it off the wallWed Mar 18 1992 21:206
    I have a grand fire trine.  While a lot of things in m life can be
    attributed to "luck", I don't think my life runs smoothly.  
    
    Can you explain why you interpret a grand trine that way?
    
    Ginny
1600.106RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticThu Mar 19 1992 14:1715
    
    Hi wal....why do you have the Ascendant in Libra and then the 1st
    house cusp in Scorpio?  This is rather confusing, as the Ascendant
    and 1st house cusp are one and the same.
    
    Regarding grand trines, they are not common but are also not rare.
    Trines in general indicate that the energy between the planets involved
    (or planet/angle) flows easily and freely.  What needs to be looked
    at are the specific planets/angles, the sign they are in, the elements
    involved, and the house placements.  Having a grand trine does not 
    negate the other factors as reflected in the chart, which might contain
    some of the hard angles, i.e. squares, oppositions, some conjunctions,
    etc.
    
    Carole
1600.109triple thanks!MRKTNG::MILLETTThu Mar 19 1992 16:367
    Since my grand trine query (.97) was the object of a lot of your time 
    and effort I would like to thank you for your knowledge and generosity. 
    
    
    
    JuST AS I Am
    
1600.111GUCCI::SMILLERThu Mar 19 1992 18:577
    Wal-
    
    thanks! I'll check tonight on my chart and let you know tomorrow where
    the trine is.
    
    shannon
    
1600.112RUBY::PAY$FRETTSWill,not Spirit,is magneticThu Mar 19 1992 19:156
    
    RE: .108
    
    yes, I agree, wal.
    
    Carole
1600.113GUCCI::SMILLERFri Mar 20 1992 18:3612
    Wal-
    
    My grand water trine is in houses 3,7 and 10.Saturn(3), Jupiter(7) Sun
    (10)/Pisces, cancer, scorpio.
    My ascendant is 19 degrees sag.
    
    I don't understand alot of the things she wrote on my chart, as it has
    been 7 years since it was read and I've forgotten alot.
    
    
    shannon
    
1600.118thanks wal!GUCCI::SMILLERMon Mar 23 1992 18:527
    Wal-
    
    Very interesting, thank you.  I tend to agree with what you interpreted
    jupiter/cancer in the 7th house.  Maybe dedicated in the 10th house
    also.
    
    shannon
1600.119HOCUS::FERGUSONBring back Closed SystemsTue Mar 24 1992 00:1011
    Wal, 
    
    My question was based on the statement you made in .100.  I don't
    expect my life to go smoothly but I was curious why you would say that
    a grand trine indicated that.  
    
    The ruler of the ascendant is the moon, which is in the trine.  I can't
    answer the rest of your questions because I haven't decided which house
    system to do my chart in yet.
    
    Ginny
1600.123HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEADGUCCI::SMILLERTue Mar 24 1992 15:2211
    Wal-
    
    I enjoyed that very much!! I'd say that 99% of what you said is correct
    (at least it's how I see myself).
    I have an older brother and two younger sisters.  I don't feel like
    there are any limitations-we are all very close and get along
    wonderfully, altho' that was not the case as children!
    
    
    Thanks,
    shannon
1600.124GUCCI::SMILLERTue Mar 24 1992 17:576
    Wal-
     A co-worker of mine read over your last entry and wondered if you
    could tell anything about her.  Her birthday is 3-9-63.
    
    thanks
    shannon
1600.125MAGEE::FRETTSif u want to heal u have to *feel*Wed Mar 25 1992 12:3610
    
    RE: .121 -wal
    
    Gauquelin's research showed that the 3rd,6th,9th, and 12th houses are
    very stong influences.  People I know very well (myself included ;^))
    have heavily populated 12th houses that effect their lives very
    stongly.
    
    
    Carole
1600.126RUBY::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistWed Mar 25 1992 14:2810
    
    RE: .121 -wal
    
    Gauquelin's research showed that the 3rd,6th,9th, and 12th houses are
    very strong influences.  People I know very well (myself included ;^))
    have heavily populated 12th houses that effect their lives very
    powerfully.
    
    
    Carole
1600.128MY CHARTGUCCI::SMILLERWed Mar 25 1992 14:4524
    Wal-
    
    I don't have a planet in every house.  The following is from my chart,
    read May 8,1985.
    
    1st house-Venus and Mars in sagittarius.
    2nd house-Moon in aquarius.
    3rd house-Saturn in pisces.(retrograde)
    4th house-empty
    5th house-empty
    6th house-empty
    7th house-Jupiter in cancer.(retrograde)
    8th house-empty
    9th house-Pluto and Uranus in virgo.
    10th house-Sun in scorpio.
    11th house-Mercury and Neptune in scorpio.
    12th house-empty
    
    Sun is squared to moon.Both Venus and Mars are squared to both pluto
    and uranus. Mars is squared to saturn.
    
    
    shannon
    
1600.129Gauquelin *didn'* use houses...WBC::BAKERJoy and fierceness...Wed Mar 25 1992 15:4027
re: 1600.124

	3-9-1963 -- Pisces people are known far and wide for
	the delight they take in torturing small animals...

	Just kidding...  ;-}

re: 1600.125 
MAGEE::FRETTS 

    
>    Gauquelin's research showed that the 3rd,6th,9th, and 12th houses are
>    very stong influences.  

	No, you're misrepresenting his research.  Gauqelin did NOT use
	astrological houses; he used the position of the planet relative
	to the local horizon and the local midheaven.  His planetary data
	were all taken from tables of rising-times of the planets.  Because
	of the way house-cusps are calculated in many house-systems, a
	planet's declination could very easily move it into a neighboring
	house (depending on which house-system you used).  The only way to
	find out a planet in one of Gauquelin's sensitive areas is to project
	that planet's position into the altitude/azimuth frame.

	You can't do it with house-cusps.

	-Art
1600.130RUBY::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistWed Mar 25 1992 16:0711
    
    Art,
    
    Perhaps you are right about Gauquelin.  My exposure to Gauquelin's
    work was through an astrological research conference where his
    findings were related to the house positions of planets.  If you
    were to look at a person's birth chart, according to Gauquelin's
    work, the planets in the 9th and 12th houses in particular, and also
    the 3rd and 6th were the most impactful.
    
    Carole
1600.131Homeless or homely?31294::WARD_FRMaking life a mystical adventureWed Mar 25 1992 16:377
    re: .130 (Carole)
    
         And if they don't have activity in certain houses, does this
    make someone homeless?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
1600.132RUBY::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistWed Mar 25 1992 19:278
    
    RE: .131
    
    Hi Frederick!
    
    Neither, thank goodness! ;^)
    
    Carole
1600.135GUCCI::SMILLERThu Mar 26 1992 13:1614
    Wal-
    
    It's not really a "T" since saturn is off to the side, more like an
    "L":-)
    
    Alot of interesting ideas which I can see in myself.
    
    I do put alot of emphasis on appearing "sexy", maybe since I was a late
    bloomer and need the attention(especially from males)
    
    some interesting insights, Wal.
    
    thanks
    shannon
1600.136WBC::BAKERJoy and fierceness...Thu Mar 26 1992 15:2542
re: 1600.130 
RUBY::PAY$FRETTS 
    
>    ........................................My exposure to Gauquelin's
>    work was through an astrological research conference where his
>    findings were related to the house positions of planets.  

	Unless the person doing the presentation recast all of Gauquelin's
	data into some house-system, and then recalculated all the statistics,
	*and* got similar levels of significance -- there is no justification
	for relating Gauquelin's work to the house positions of planets.

>    ..........................................................If you
>    were to look at a person's birth chart, according to Gauquelin's
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    work, the planets in the 9th and 12th houses in particular, and also
     ^^^^
>    the 3rd and 6th were the most impactful.

	No, that's the part that isn't true !  NOT according to Gauquelin's
	work.  In his book, he divided the sky up into twelve sectors WHICH
	DO NOT CORRESPOND TO ANY OF THE STANDARD SYSTEMS OF HOUSE DIVISION.
	What his study showed was that the 9th, 12th, 3rd, and 6th SECTORS
	were powerful locations.  A number of astrologers who apparently 
	didn't read the study carefully (or who just don't know enough
	spherical trig to see the difference) felt justified in saying
	that these twelve SECTORS could be mapped one-to-one onto the
	twelve HOUSES.  (After all, twelve is twelve right ?  NOT !) But
	this is incorrect.  In many cases, the declination of the planet
	(i.e. its celestial latitude referred to the equator) will put
	it in a different SECTOR (in the Gauquelin scheme) from the HOUSE
	it will occupy in traditional astrology.

	Unless you recast your chart into the same framework as Gauquelin
	used for his study, you have no legitimate basis for claiming that
	a particular planet is powerful IN THE SENSE THAT GAUQUELIN USED.
	
	If you like, I can post the publishing info for Gauquelin's original
	research report.  I have it in my library, and I think it's still
	in print.

	-Art
1600.137how about a quickie forSFCPMO::CABANYAThu Mar 26 1992 15:455
11-3-47, denver co, 8:23 pm

????


1600.138Who is Gauquelin ?DWOVAX::STARKTo Serve ManThu Mar 26 1992 15:4811
    re: .136, -Art
    
>	If you like, I can post the publishing info for Gauquelin's original
>	research report.  I have it in my library, and I think it's still
>	in print.
    
    Sorry for the sideline comment, but who is Gauquelin, and what exactly
    did he research ?  It sounds like I missed something interesting.  I'd 
    be interested in seeing his report.
    
    							todd
1600.139Gauquelin and CSICOP.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperThu Mar 26 1992 16:5446
    Michel Gauquelin was a French researcher who was skeptical of the
    claims of astrology, and who set out to objectively test its claims.
    He conducted a number of tests most of which were completely negative
    -- for example he discovered that astrologers (at least those he
    consulted) were unable to distinguish model citizens from criminals
    executed for heinious crimes on the basis of their birth information.

    The most important set of experiments he conducted, however, concerned
    people who had shown themselves to be outstanding in one or another
    area of human endeavor (specifically, who had appeared in an
    appropriate volume of Who's Who and met a few other criteria).  He
    toured France (later all of Europe) collecting birth certificates for
    his test and control (ordinary people selected at random) subjects.

    He then cast their horoscopes to see if there was some factor which
    was correlated with outstanding success in various areas of human
    endevour -- business, sports, science and the military (those are the
    categories I remember).  He came up with a big fat zero for planetary/
    lunar/solar positions and aspects against signs.  As far as I know,
    he never tested any tradional house relations.

    He did notice a pattern, however, which he formalized into what he
    initially called "planetary time of day" and later just refered to as
    "sectors".  Basically, he divided the two arcs (above and below) from
    horizon to horizon into twelve "hours".  He noticed that, relative
    to his controls, his outstanding achievers tended to have excesses or
    deficiencies of certain planets (different planets for different
    professions) in the "dawn" and "noon" hours.

    He has since expanded his database greatly and the relationships
    continue to hold.  A number of skeptics and skeptical organizations
    have attempted to shoot his results down.  Several have managed to
    raise questions, none of which survived for long.  In large part
    Gauquelin's work was the impetous for the formation of CSICOP.  Later,
    they targeted Gauquelin's work as a worth research project.  They
    succeeded in replicating his results, so they changed the success
    criteria and announced that they had successfully "debunked" the
    "Mars effect" (the particular effect studied -- "a marked tendency for
    champion athletes to be born when the planet Mars has either risen over
    the horizon or passed its upper culmination").  There was a lot of
    protest and many defections from CSICOP as a result.  The CSICOP people
    deny that any such thing "really" happened, though the evidence is
    clearcut.  Soon after, CSICOP announced that CSICOP wouldn't do any
    more research -- despite that having been one of its prime charters.

				    Topher
1600.140FascinatingDWOVAX::STARKTo Serve ManThu Mar 26 1992 17:484
    re: .139 (Gauquelin and CSICOP), Topher,
    
    Thank you !
    		todd
1600.141RUBY::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistFri Mar 27 1992 11:5114
    
    Art,
    
    I can only relate what my experience at the conference was.  By the
    way, the presenter was Gauquelin's wife, Francoise.  Almost all the
    astrological house systems arrive at the same midheaven and the ascendant
    positions.  The ascendant is the horizon line and the midheaven is the
    point directly above.  These are the cusps of the first and tenth
    houses, and their opposite points - the nadir and the descendant - are
    the fourth and seventh houses.  It can easily translate to these house
    placements.  I can't get into astronomical arguments with you, as I'm
    no astronomy expert.
    
    Carole
1600.143Neophyte Astrologer Needs Good BookYOSMTE::CANTONI_MIWed Apr 01 1992 21:4212
    Can anybody out there recommend a *GOOD* and easily comprehensible book
    on astrology for a *beginner*.  I'm very new to this notesfile and
    astrology (don't really know anything except that I'm a Taurus).  I'm
    more interested in past lives right now; Wal's note (a few back) that
    referenced past incarnations caught my attention.
    
    If anybody out there would like to do my chart (not *extremely*
    detailed) for fun, I was born 21 April 1963 between 5am and 6am (I
    forget the exact time 8^) in Mountain View, CA.
    
    Thanks in advance!
    --Michelle
1600.144RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/physics+metaphysicsThu Apr 02 1992 12:277
    
    Hi Michelle,
    
    I would recommend Steven Forrest's "The Inner Sky" as a good beginner's
    text.
    
    Carole
1600.146Thank YouYOSMTE::CANTONI_MIThu Apr 02 1992 23:513
    Thanks, Carole & Wal!  I'll look 8^) into those.
    
    --Michelle
1600.1482 Mt. Views in CA???!CAPITN::CANTONI_MIFri Apr 03 1992 20:334
    I had no idea!  I'm from the Santa Clara County one.  8^)
    
    --Michelle
    
1600.151RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsMon Apr 06 1992 13:129
    
    
    RE: .149 -wal
    
    If we were to look at a chart 3-dimensionally, we would have east,
    west, above (MC), below (Nadir).....and then north and south points,
    which are not reflected in a 2-dimensional chart.
    
    Carole
1600.154RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsMon Apr 06 1992 16:5217
    
    Hi -wal,
    
    In your .150 your refer to the MC as south and the nadir as north.
    They should be switched, and in actuality are really above and
    below.  That was what my .151 was addressing.
    
    I don't know about the headboard thing.  It could be an interesting
    research study.  I hear that the practice of Feng-shui (an Oriental
    study and practice of placemaking) is very effective and can tie
    in with astrology, but I don't know the specific of the link.  I
    would like to study more about Feng-shui and try it in my home.
    It deals with different segments of a room or home or grounds and
    how they relate to your life.  Placement of furniture is very
    important.
    
    Carole
1600.155interconnectednessATSE::FLAHERTYWings of fire: Percie and meMon Apr 06 1992 17:5711
    Hi Carole,
    
    My SO has been studying a bit about Feng Shui and has a couple of books
    on the subject.  He uses it in relationship to healing the earth.  ;')
    There is a workshop being offered at Interface this spring/summer, if
    you are interested.
    
    FWIW.
    
    Ro
    
1600.156RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsMon Apr 06 1992 20:265
    
    Thanks Ro.  I'll have to take a closer look at my Interface catalog.
    I missed that one! :^{
    
    Carole
1600.157Huh?YOSMTE::CANTONI_MIMon Apr 06 1992 21:1016
    re: .150
     -wal
    
      I'm afraid I don't understand.  What does sun 01 Taurus with Libra
    rising signify?  Re: what happened at age 29 -- I'm not yet 29 (~2wks
    to go).  I'm completely confused by your note.  :^)
    
    Re: Feng Shui
    
    I've read a little about this.  I even have a book on it, but I don't
    remember that many specifics.  I do know that you should not point your
    feet out the door when placing your bed; it has something to do with
    funerals and coffins being carried out the door that way.
    
    --Michelle
    
1600.15929TNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicWed Apr 08 1992 19:3819
                                  
    Michelle,
    
    About age 29...perhaps totally unrelated to this note string...
    
    In my many readings, and indeed in my own life, age 29 is a major
    turning point.  It's when I had my initial 'aha', now identified as a
    shakti-kundalini awakening.  Many, many other people, including people 
    like Krishnamurti as stated in his Notebook (obtained from India) that
    age 29 he began his 'process', along with statistics that appear at the 
    end of one of I.Bentov's books (either "Stalking The Wild Pendulum" or 
    "The Cosmic Book" with Mirtala, his wife) there is a listing of people 
    who have also undergone similar experiences, and the experiences are
    listed.  [How's that for a long sentence!]
    
    So it might indeed prove to be a very interesting and accelerated
    spiritual growth year for you!
    
    Cindy 
1600.160What did she say to mean...?YOSMTE::CANTONI_MIWed Apr 08 1992 21:1028
    re: a couple regarding my upcoming 29th birthday
    
    That's interesting!  I had a thought last night (no comments, please
    :^) that perhaps just reading these replies has initiated something for
    me this year.  I may be a bit more optimistic, looking forward to
    "something" (perhaps in the way of spiritual awakening).  In a related
    train of thought (excuse me if I create a rathole here), I recently
    attended church with my sister.  I don't think it was a particular
    denomination, but it was very upbeat with a lot of singing.  The
    atmosphere was almost more of a self-improvement/inspirational-seminar
    type thing.  I had a very difficult time accepting "Christianity" but I
    listened to the "sermon" and sang a little.  The strange thing is that
    a few days later I got the customary (for that church) letter from the
    pastor saying that he and the church are available for me and that God
    loves me.  I guess that's normal, but I got the distinct impression
    that he knew I was having trouble accepting Jesus, and my letter was
    very different from the one my sister received.
    
    Anyway, it's weird because I never used to have this much trouble with
    accepting Jesus and Christianity in a formal-church sense, and I don't 
    have any trouble with the idea/fact of God/a god.
    
    There's a lot more to what I'm feeling but I'm having trouble
    expressing it, and right now I'm confusing myself!
    
    Thank you all for your replies!
    --Michelle
    
1600.161ah...deja vuTNPUBS::PAINTERlet there be musicWed Apr 08 1992 22:0014
    
    Re.160
    
    Michelle,
    
    Yes, that sounds about right.  Have fun!  (;^)
    
    You might want to take a look at note #457 in this conference.
    
    The book "Autobiography Of A Yogi" by Yogananda also makes for
    excellent reading about these things, particularly when it comes to
    putting Christianity, Jesus, etc. into a more global perspective.
    
    Cindy
1600.162RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsThu Apr 09 1992 12:1720
    
    Hi Michelle,
    
    -wal's reference to your turning 29 as being significant is because
    of a progression of your Sun into the next zodiacal sign.  What most
    astrologers look at is the Saturn return, which occurs at the age
    of 28-29.  Saturn is returning to the same place it was at the time of
    your birth.  It is a time when you will be looking at all the
    constructs of your life and seeing what works and what doesn't.  
    Relationships may end and new ones begin.  You may move your home.
    You may change jobs.  Your ego is being renovated! ;^)  It is
    said to be *the* major maturation cycle.  The more aware a person is
    of the process that is occurring (the need to let go of those things
    that are no longer supportive to your growth), the less painful this
    time will be.
    
    Wishing you a healthy and strengthening Saturn return!
    
    Hugs,
    Carole
1600.163DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyThu Apr 09 1992 16:586
Re: Saturn return.

Would that explain why the years following (ages 30 through ???) seem a little 
slow or bogged down (in comparison to the years of ages 28-29)?

Beth
1600.164RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsThu Apr 09 1992 17:1915
    
    Hi Beth,
    
    I don't know that what you describe would be a general outcome but
    could be for some people, particularly if the time leading up to
    and during the Saturn return is one of upheaval!  Things can seem a
    bit tame in comparison ;^).  Actually it would be important to look
    at a persons's chart and see where the Saturn return occurs and what
    else is going on.  For myself, the years prior to and during my
    Saturn return were incredibly stressful.  The following few years in
    comparison were no where near as stressful but were eye-opening in
    that I was doing things so differently.  I had a great time in my
    early 30's.
    
    Carole
1600.165RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsThu Apr 09 1992 17:217
    
    also.....
    
    If only I had known about the Saturn return when I was going through
    it.  I think the stress level would have been much less.
    
    Carole
1600.166DSSDEV::GRIFFINPractice random kindness and senseless acts of beautyThu Apr 09 1992 18:494
    I never had a chart done for myself. Birthdate 9/17/59, Somerville, NJ,
    USA, morning (sunrise or shortly thereafter).  Any takers?
    
    Beth
1600.167Okay...YOSMTE::CANTONI_MIThu Apr 09 1992 21:4112
    re: .161
    
    Thanks, Carole!  I understand better now.  Come to think of it, the
    past two years of my life have been very "full."  I've done alot and
    I've gone through many changes (sometimes very stressful) of residence
    and jobs.  I'm currently working for a temporary agency and will soon
    start my third job (all for DEC but in different locations) in a year. 
    I'm currently trying to go back to school to prepare for a career
    change.  So...I guess I fit the profile.
    
    Thanks again,
    --Michelle  
1600.168RUBY::PAY$FRETTSUranus+Neptune/the new physicsTue Apr 14 1992 14:1528
    
    -wal, what's happened to all of your notes?
    
    
    In reference to my .154, I would like to clarify something.  If you
    look at a 2-dimensional chart, the directions go like this:
    
    
                                 Midheaven (South)
    
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
        Ascendant (East)  _____________________________  Descendant (West)
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
                                   Nadir (North)
    
    
        So, -wal's description is accurate, except that the Midheaven
        and Nadir in a 3-dimensions chart would be points above and below,
        giving the chart 6 points rather than 4.
    
    
        Carole
    
                                  
1600.169SFCPMO::CABANYATue Apr 14 1992 16:296
I've been corresponding with Wal via mail and he told me he wasn't going to
be reading DEJAVU anymore, don't know if thats just 'for awhile' or 'forever'.

I'll miss his notes!!

mary
1600.170ATSE::FLAHERTYWings of fire: Percie and meTue Apr 14 1992 17:158
    mary,
    
    Did he say why?  Hope he wasn't offended by anything said here.
    
    Have enjoyed his notes as well...
    
    Ro
    
1600.171Looking for MeaningTIGEMS::POTTERTue Apr 14 1992 20:476
    Can anyone give me an interpretation for Venus in Aquarius in
    the 8th house?
    
    Thanks for any info.
    
    R-
1600.172SFCPMO::CABANYAWed Apr 15 1992 15:585
Ro, not sure why he got out.  I didn't save his original message and don't
remember quite why he decided to leave.  I don't think he was upset with anyone
in particular...

mary
1600.173Epitath to the WalsterDWOVAX::STARKManifold destinyWed Apr 15 1992 19:218
    re: .172, Mary C.,
    	Yes, I'd be surprised if the Walster left with hard feelings.
    	From the conversations I had with him in mail he seemed very
    	gracious and good natured in response to most of the 
    	DEJAVU exchanges.  He seems like an interesting person, and I valued 
    	his entries.   Rest in ... wherever ... Walster.  
    
    								todd
1600.174re. .171TIGEMS::FIOREFri Apr 17 1992 15:4912
    re. .171
    
    Since I am a contractor here at DEC, and do not have my own account,
    I've been using the accounts of a couple of the people I work with
    in order to get into Dejavu.  I did get an off-line reply at this
    other person's account but she didn't understand what it was all about.
    It's all straightened out now.  I do thank you for the reply.
    
    The reason I asked the question:  I had heard it was a very ominous
    positioning.  It is in a friend's chart.
    
    R-
1600.175OFFSHR::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistFri Apr 17 1992 17:007
    
    RE: .171-.174
    
    R-   where did you hear that Venus in Aquarius in the 8th is an
    'ominous position'?  In what context was it meant?
    
    Carole
1600.176re .171TIGEMS::FIOREFri Apr 17 1992 17:342
    I had read in some astrology article about it being ominous to a
    partner, could imply death, depending on your interpretation.
1600.177OFFSHR::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistFri Apr 17 1992 19:185
    
    Yikes! ;^)  I'll write something up on this and enter it next week.
    You are right - interpretations vary.
    
    Carole
1600.178re .177SMEGIT::FIOREFri Apr 17 1992 20:015
    Thanks, Carole.
    
    Should be interesting.
    
    R-
1600.179OFFSHR::PAY$FRETTSa visionary activistThu Apr 23 1992 15:0542
    	Here are some definitions of Venus in Aquarius and Venus in
    	the 8th House.  I want to say that, imo, the interpretation
    	of this position implying death of a partner is sensationalistic,
    	to say the least.  *All* of us are going to die someday.  Geesh.
    	Nothing like getting people upset for nothing.  
    
    
	Venus is Aquarius
	=================

	This placement usually indicates someone who is well liked and
	has many friends.  There can be an usual quality to the person
	and their approach to relationships is somewhat detached and
	impersonal.  They don't necessarily follow the traditional rules
	regarding relationships.  They follow their own truth.  They have
	concern for humanity at large and are interested in fairness for
	everyone.  Friendship is very important to them.  They need
	freedom within a relationship and do not like possessiveness.
	Their artistics tastes will run to the unusual.  They can be
	highly intuitive.

	Venus in the 8th
	================

	There is a lot of caring about others.  This position favors
	business partnerships.  This can be a very seductive placement
	with the ability of making the partner feel less inhibited.
	There will be a keen interest in the mysteries of life and those
	things that are 'hidden'.


	
  What needs to be kept in mind is that the rest of the chart needs to
  be read to see how the 8th house Venus in Aquarius fits in.  What are
  the aspects to Venus?  Where do Taurus and Libra fall in the chart?
  Then there are transits and progressions to consider.  Don't jump to
    conclusions based on one interpretation of one placement.
    
    
    Carole
  
	
1600.180YOSMTE::WILKES_ELThu Apr 23 1992 15:2612
    Hello,
    
    I'm very new to the Notes file and have a question concerning
    astrology.  Several years ago I had my chart done and was told that I
    had both a T square and a grand trine in this chart.  I didn't quite
    understand the implications at the time and have not had the
    opportunity to question it since.  Can you help me with this? 
    Specifically I would like to know what each term (T-Square; Grand
    Trine) means and what the significance of both being in a chart
    implies.
    
    Ellen
1600.181re .179SMEGIT::POTTERThu Apr 23 1992 16:176
    Carole,
    
    Thank you for the descriptions.  They do seem to apply to this person.
    Also puts my mind at ease.
    
    R-
1600.182half an answer!!POBOX::SEIBERTRPerkyThu May 28 1992 20:5023
    Re: -2, the person who asked about a Grand Trine and a T-square,
    I will attempt to answer at least half of your question!!  I'm about
    half way through my first astrology class and we just discussed Trines.
    I'm not sure if this holds true for a "Grand" Trine, but I imagine its
    pretty close.
    
    When there is a Trine in a chart it means that the best sides of what
    ever planets and signs are involved are expressing themselves.  The
    energies from each complement each other and energy flows harmoniously. 
    A trine is a good thing to have in a chart, however, because this area
    of you life is so effortless it can tend to make you lazy in that area.
    
    What exactly this means to your individual case is totally dependent on
    where and what is involved.
    
    We haven't gone over T-squares yet, but I imagine its coming up.  We've
    already discussed regular squares!!
    
    While I'm in here, I like to let you know I really enjoy reading this
    file!!
    
    Renee
    
1600.183Saturn RetrogradeSQM::HARQUAILDrive Sane, save wildlifeFri May 29 1992 12:2313
    
    	Anyone care to put in some info on the effect of upcoming
    	Saturn retrograde? I'm curious as Saturn currently is
    	in my house of career. I read it will be retrograde till october.
    	I know it is a powerful slow moving planet, that has a parental
    	type influence on things. It seems to me sometimes retrograde
    	motion breaks illusions, sometimes it creates illusion. Somtimes
    	it is an opportunity, sometimes negative sometimes positive and
    	so on. So what would the influnce of retrograde Saturn be?
    
    
    Thanks
    Marilyn
1600.184RUBY::PAY$FRETTSFri May 29 1992 15:5512
    
    Hi Marilyn,
    
    In very general terms, you may find old, career related issues
    coming back to be addressed.  Or some changes/moves may be delayed.
    Saturn tends to limit and delay anyway, but a retrograde enhances
    those qualities.  It could be a good opportunity for you to review
    potential career changes and decisions....what is working for you 
    and what isn't.
    
    
    Carole
1600.185SQM::HARQUAILDrive Sane, save wildlifeMon Jun 01 1992 12:176
    Thanks!
    		Very much Carole.
    
    Thats exactly what I was looking for.
    
    Marilyn
1600.186Solar/Lunar EclipseVIRTUE::HARQUAILMagic HappensTue May 10 1994 12:5132
    
    Gee, I was the last to write in this note before?
    Well got another question, if anyone is interested
    	in providing a general interpertation.
    It's regarding the eclipse, both solar and lunar.
    
    Thanks to Todd Dolliver and his Astro watch reports I've 
    suscribed to  the Mountain Astrologer, and though I am interested
    in and follow astrology, I still don't quite understand how to
    interpert things.  I have my Birth Chart, and have a had
    interpertations done at different times. These eclipses appear
    as they should be rather significant to me?
    
    According to the Mountain Astrologer this eclipse should effect
    wherever 19 degress taurus hits your chart. THese are eclipses are
    also occuring with the Sun in Taurus.
     My sun is in Taurus and my ascendant is in Taurus in the 12th House. 
    and it says under longitudes 3 degrees and 1. 
    Then 19 degrees Taurus 18  in mercury (I guess
    this would be the hit? communication?) the 20 degress tau 44 tail.
    SO this is and overwhelming amount of Taurus to figure out what to
    read about! It also looks alittle ominus, I will say life has been
    too busy since Feb!
    So would anyone be kind enough to give me an overview of the situation,
    or what I'd be specifically interested in reading about to understand
    Whats going on?
    
    Course I'd also be interested too in what others see as a world 
    interpertation of this astroligical event.
    
    Thanks
    Marilyn
1600.187WRKSYS::MACKAY_EMon Mar 04 1996 12:239
    
    Could someone please explain to me the effect or influence of Pluto?
    I am a Scorpio and Pluto is starting a new 10+ year cycle. What does
    that really mean?
    
    
    Thanks for any pointers,
    Eva
    
1600.188WMOIS::CONNELLStory does that to us.Mon Mar 04 1996 21:5616
    Eva, I'm still going through all my notes on Pluto and Scorpio. (and
    everything else I've been taught in my classes. still ongoing) Trying
    to get them out of my own shorthand (No relation to real shorthand :-))
    and into my A1 account in some semblance of what I was taught.
    
    I do remember Carol telling us that Pluto leaving Scorpio is good for
    Scorps right now and it's a good time for making money. So go for the
    riches. I know this isn't to detailed, but I believe it means that it's
    time for Scorpios to become successful in their endeavors right now.
    
    That's a little bit of it. I hope other, nore trained individuals can
    elaborate or even refute this if I've got it wrong.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    
1600.189WRKSYS::MACKAY_ETue Mar 05 1996 12:155
    
    Thanks. 
    
    
    Eva
1600.190Jupiter and UranusBATVX0::SMITH_MMartin Smith, Evry (F). - 858 4896.Wed Mar 06 1996 05:598
    For info on "Jupiter's Movement Into Capricorn" and "Uranus' Transit 
    Through Aquarius" you might want to look at:

    http://www.sun-angel.com/emporium/visions/jupiter.html
    and 
    http://www.sun-angel.com/emporium/visions/uranus.html

    [assuming you can access the WWW]