Conference hydra::dejavu

Hi,
	Is posting the address of such hated persons in a public conference a 
	good idea? It could perhaps generate more hate-mail from others reading
	this conference than "love-mail"? 

	Just a thought... although the original idea is a nice one!

								- JIM CAD* 

    How on earth can you tell someone you've never met, and truthfully
    dislike, that you love them? Whatever your motives, which I confess are
    completely beyond me, it surely can acheive nothing since they will not
    believe it anyway. Given the above, said assertation of love can carry
    no weight.
    
    Laurie.

    I think thats great Cindy,
    	
    		Personally I work on a smaller scale, but on a regular
    	basis, it keeps me more honest ;-).
    An example is : my neighbors really annoy me, in fact somedays they
    I feel downright angry with them. So, I make sure I give them 
    some vegetables from my garden, recently I've been shoveling thier
    side of the walk when I shovel mine, even though they are perfectly
    capable of shoveling it themselves. When I can, and my 1st impulse is
    to do something nasty or ignore someone who irritates me, I try to say
    wait, what can I do really nice, to diffuse this situation. Sometimes
    it works and changes things, sometimes it doesn't , I keep trying,
    sometimes I end up ignoring em, sometimes it really annoy's them ;-),
    My intent is always for good will and a smile.
    
    
    Merry, Merry
    Terry

    I think that I must go along with Laurie on this one, I'm not very good
    at lying and I have a strong aversion to doing it.

    Jamie.

The love referred to by .0 is probably more of a love of mankind;  saying to
these people who act to cause negative emotions towards them are still a part
of the whole that is humanity, and, as christians profess, love thy neighbor.
The love is unconditional, no matter what there actions, they are still a part
of the humanity for which Cindy (and myself and others) has love.  This love
is for ALL the parts, no matter how negative they may be.  That is how you can
love someone who inspires hate.  That is why Cindy can be truthful when telling
them she has love for them.

Or am I off the mark, Cindy? :-)

Beth

    
    Although the intent is a noble one, I find myself in the up to know
    unheard of position of agreeing with Laurie and Jamie. I'm not sure
    that I want to express love to beings of whom I do not approve, and,
    moreover, who may take these expressions of love as signs of approval
    or support for whatever their agendas may be.
    
    I, instead have decided to commit "random kindness and senseless acts
    of beauty" (noted elsewhere). In so doing, I may benefit someone who
    does not deserve it, but may also benefit many who do......
    
    I guess I'm not as enlightened as you, maybe next life :^)
    
    
    Marilyn

               
    Re.5
    
    Yes, Beth, that's correct.
    
    To all - there is a difference between 'being' and 'doing'.  Just 
    because they 'are', is reason enough to extend love to them.  We may 
    not agree with what they 'do', however.
    
    The power of love to counteract their hate is the most powerful force
    we have available to change this world for the better.  For example, it
    was hate that *ultimately* was the force behind the erecting of the 
    Berlin Wall.  Love brought it down.  And so on.
    
    Cindy

This unconditional love is something which very few people are capable
of giving, and apparently-sincere intention and effort are not
sufficient. If you *are* capable of doing this, then you are aware of
it, and you do it all the time, anyway, and don't need suggestions or
reminders. If, on the other hand, you find the proposal in .0 to be a
good idea, then you are *not* one of the people capable of giving this
unconditional, altruistic love. In that case, any attempt would be as
Ms Brown describes: insincere at best, and even potentially destructive.

To imagine that one is doing good is not the same thing as actually
doing good, and may, in fact, be doing harm.

	re.-1    Amen, Mike!

	Merry Christmas

	8-)	Mikki

    
    Re.8
    
    Mike,
    
    God showers unconditional, altruistic Love on us all the time.
    
    However, occasionally a physical manifestation in the form of an 
    avatar shows up just to give us tangible representation/reminder 
    of that Love nonetheless.
    
    In the case of Amnesty Int'l letters, it's a wonderful idea to send
    unconditional, altruistic love in the direction of both the percecutors
    and the prisoners to make the situation less volatile (and I do believe
    it does work), however a followup reminder in the form of a letter 
    seems to have proven positive impact as well.  
    
    Cindy

>    In the case of Amnesty Int'l letters, it's a wonderful idea to send
>    unconditional, altruistic love in the direction of both the percecutors
>    and the prisoners to make the situation less volatile (and I do believe
>    it does work), however a followup reminder in the form of a letter 
>    seems to have proven positive impact as well.

  The giving of god-love can take many forms, and can involve sending a
  letter, not just "broadcasting on the astral plane". Its impact is
  always positive. Without getting theological, yes, you're right that a
  letter which is not necessarily a manifestation of this perfect love
  can have a positive impact in some form, too. It could have negative
  impact, too though, depending on the motivation of the sender.

  Now I see that my reply may be interpreted to be critical of the base
  note (and, in one way, it is). But I should point out that the note
  itself has a direct positive effect: it causes one to recognize that
  the most hated people are still people with feelings -- somewhere in
  there. If it results in no letters to such people, its positive effect
  is not diminished. The note benefits the reader directly. Whether it
  benefits the hated people directly (from letters sent) is not certain.

  So I apologize for failing to mention, in my criticism, the more
  important direct positive effect of the base note.

    Having read in .11 that messages can be sent as reliably on the astral
    plane as by the more conventional postal system, I think that next year
    it might be a lot cheaper to send astral plane messages than Christmas
    cards.

    Jamie.

> it might be a lot cheaper to send astral plane messages

Hardly. There's a subscription fee which could cost you an arm and a leg.

    Yes but how many messages are you allowed to send?

    Jamie.

    
    Thanks Mike.  Yes, if one does not feel this love in one's heart, 
    then sending a card would be rather meaningless.
    
    To everyone: 
    
    At this point, I guess what would be most helpful to us would be 
    a list of the most well known living hated people in society 
    today that you can think of.  Either post them here, or send them 
    to us directly.  Addresses would be helpful too.   
    
    The list in .0 began with Leona Helmsley, Pamela Smart, Imelda 
    Marcos, ..... {help us to fill in more names please}.
    
    Cindy

    Hi Cindy,
    
    I think you idea in the base note is very good.
    
    I have listed some candidates for your letter/card writing campaign
    below:
    
    Nancy Reagan
    Charles Keating
    The current head of state for the People's Republic of China
    John Sununu
    Manuel Noriega
    Jesse Jackson
    Ted Kennedy
    Anita Hill, Law Professor
    Clarence Thomas, Supreme Court Justice
    Mario Cuomo
    PeeWee Herman
    William Kennedy Smith
    
    
    (oops, now you can tell I watch TV news and read newspapers!)
    
    
    Hang in there Cindy.  I love your style.  You are a wonderful Light in
    this world, even if people don't always see it!
    
    In Light and Love,
    
    Bill
    
    
    PS:  Have a meaningful, happy holiday season!

>>    Hang in there Cindy.  I love your style.  You are a wonderful Light in
>>    this world, even if people don't always see it!
    
	Here, here!  I second that Cindy

	hugs, Mikki

    Yes, Cindy, I agree with the two previous.  Especially since I went
    home and thought about it ... but the idea of sending cards to David
    Duke and Jeffrey Dahmler (2 more candidates for your list) really
    turned my stomach.
    
    But then I started thinking about other peopole in the news, the ones
    who get excessive bashing from the press -- and so I sent a card to Dan
    & Marilyn Quayle :-)  (so if I get a call from the Secret Service
    you'll hear about it!)
    
    Happy Holidays to all,
    Ginny

    
    Thank you all.  (;^)  But it was really Rama's idea.
    
    See you again on the 2nd.
    
    Love to you,
    
    Cindy

        <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 367.2                Love and the Christmas Spirit                   2 of 2
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Peace: the Final Frontier"        30 lines  18-DEC-1991 22:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classifications or groupings of persons most frequently perceived
as contemptible, disgraceful, shiftless, perverse, bitchy, whiney,
pitiful and/or lost:

	o  Welfare or ADC recipients

	o  The overweight, especially overweight women

	o  Gays, lesbians, bisexuals

	o  Outspoken women

	o  Americans who refuse to pledge allegiance to the flag

	o  The elderly, especially those on a fixed income

	o  Ambitious and/or aggressive women

	o  Pacifists, war resisters

	o  Satanists

	o  Whistleblowers

	o  The chronically ill

	o  Secular humanists


					Richard

	o	Roseanne Barr Arnold, especially since her stylization of the
		national anthem.  She's also an overweight, outspoken, and
		ambitious woman (see list in .20).

	o	Jane Fonda, who can't seem to be able to escape her image as
		a traitor.

	o	Lynden LeRouche

	o	Charles Manson

	o	Richard Nixon

	o	Rev. Sun Myung Moon


						Peace,
						Richard

    How about extending Love in a positive way to those Babies and children
    of countries like Albania. They are the ones that need Loving. Humanity
    has much to answer for does it not?.
    
    Can anyone really stand up and say that they "love" someone who has
    caused suffering to another. Are we only really satisfying our own
    conscience with what has been suggested by this note?.
    
    I would if I could Love all others but I do find this a difficult
    concept to get into my heart with somethings we do.
    
    Dave.
    

    Dave, I understand what you are feeling.  However, I believe that the 
    people that we hate the most are most often the ones that need love the 
    most.  What drove them to behave horribly was the lack of love in their
    lives and their lack of self love.
    
    We all hold the potential to become the most vile of people.  Given the
    right (or, rather, *wrong*) circumstances for a long enough time, there 
    is not one among us who would not ultimately break.  (I have no doubt
    that some here will protest this.  I would say to them, however, that
    a "holier than thou" attitude immediately suggests impure motives and,
    therefore, impure love).  The people who have committed terrible crimes
    have had terrible crimes committed against them, too.  They have become
    society's scapegoats, so that the "good" people can feel ok.  They are a 
    manifestation of the lack of love, or distorted love, from which we all 
    suffer but which we deny and insist is outside of ourselves.
    
    One problem I see with this project is that many of the people that
    have been listed are not the people most in need of love.  It reads
    too much like a celebrity hit list.  It also is missing Saddam Hussein. 
    And how about the head dudes in China, you know, the ones who ordered 
    the army to drive their tanks over the students who sought freedom. 
    And the heads of various regimes in South America.
    
    And, yes, the babies and children in Albania (and Appalachia, and the
    homeless families, and everywhere else) need and are as deserving of
    our love -- not to mention shelter and food -- as anyone else.  
    
    Furthermore, I'm not sure that any one of us here is pure enough or
    healthy enough to give the love needed by the really hated ones.
    
    Mary  

	re. -1 
	

			Hi Mary, and "Merry Christmas".   
	I wanted to say, just one thing - (your response was GReat!) and 
	that is - when you come to realize you are "apart of it ALL" you
	stop separating 'them' and 'us'.  WE ARE THEM... 

		so lets love us...and them..

		B*)..oh well - Merry Christmas to all of us

	\')

	Mikki

    I'm sorry, but I feel that telling someone I cannot stand, whose very
    way of life is alien to everything I believe in, that I "love" them, is
    hypocritical, and a downright lie. Hypocrisy and lying are alien to the
    things *I* believe in, and I wouldn't happily do it even for a friend,
    never mind someone who made my skin crawl. Not to mention the fact
    that, by supporting them in this way, you lend support to their cause
    and their beliefs.
    
    I'm afraid I simply cannot understand what it is you are trying to
    acheive by this lie.
    
    Laurie.

    Laurie .25,
    
    I agree with you that to tell someone you love them when you don't is 
    superficial at best, and a lie at worst.  I think that the person who 
    is able to do this without hypocrisy is one who has wrestled with 
    their own dark side, their own inherent potential for evil, and 
    through this has been able to integrate it (or are in the continual 
    process of integrating it :-) ) into their overall personality, in a 
    way that does not harm themselves or others.  They grant the "dark
    side," if you will, of themselves a dignity equal to that which they 
    have for the "light side."  I have found the following to be very 
    instructive, fwiw...
    
    	"If it were all so simple!  If only there were evil people
    	 somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were
    	 necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and
    	 destroy them.  But the line dividing good and evil cuts
    	 through the heart of every human being.  And who is willing
    	 to destroy a piece of their own heart?"
    
    		-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
    
    Each of us carries the potentiality for a Hitler or Hussein or Marcos 
    (as well as a Schweitzer or Mother Teresa) inside us.  One of the 
    things that can be acheived by extending love to an undersirable 
    individual is that, in effect, the person is also extending love,
    and acceptance, to their _own_ dark side.  It is _extremely_ beneficial, 
    imo, for one to realize that in reaching out to extend love to 
    "undersirable" people, in reality, one is also reaching _in_ to show 
    love and acceptance to the undersirable qualities that lurk in the 
    shadows of their own personality.  
    
    (Much healing can and does occur when one acknowledges her/his 
    capacity for evil and seeks to accept it, integrate it, and express 
    it appropriately, rather than engage in futile attempts to destroy it, 
    imo.)
    
    Karen

    
	Re. -1  You mean as in this lovely poem someone put here?

		If one person holds hatred toward another,
		then to that degree humanity itself is at war,
		and the potentail for war is present for everyone,
		We are all in this together.

		When a single person transcends the differences,
		recognizes the unity, and extends the bounds of  
		human awareness, then to that degree humanity itself is free,
		and the potential for freedom is present for everyone;

		Herein lies the hope for humanity.

		
		Happy New Year, Karen, and everyone

	Meredith

    Yeah Meredith, that's the ticket! 
    
    :-)
    
    Happy hollydays,
    
    Kb

    Laurie .25,
    
    	Having a fairly good handle on the the basenote authors'
    intentions, I'd say that no one here was being invited to act
    out of hypocrisy.  I'd say that the invitation here was extended
    to whomever felt moved to accept it.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    Roughly paraphrased from the Tao Te Ching:
    
      "And the fool, upon hearing the Truth, just laughed.
       If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be Tao."
    
    Cindy

    
    Oops!  One correction to .36:
    
        "And the fool, upon hearing of the *TAO*, just laughed."
    
    Cindy

         
    Re.42
    
    Laurie,
    
>   In this particular topic, as in most others (except those where I have
>   made my views plain), I am completely sincere. I truly do not
>   understand what you are trying to do, I truly do not understand your
>   motives and I truly do not understand what you are trying to acheive.
    
    Then, back to the topic at hand, skipping over the digression...
    
    Rama Karedla contacted me directly before Christmas asking if I could
    think of people who are recipients of collective hate (paraphrased),
    along with their addresses.  Beyond the list he had prepared, I really
    couldn't think of any, and came up with the idea of posting a request
    here to see if anybody else could come up with names.  Then he, and
    perhaps I (time permitting) would use the list to send out the cards to
    the people on the list.  
    
    Then the idea of others perhaps wanting to get involved and send cards
    out too came up, and that also became part of .0 toward the end.
    
    However, rather than anyone posting names, it turned into a rather
    strange philosophical reflective discourse topic and the original
    request got lost...that being having the readers here simply suggest 
    names.
    
    You're not required to do anything, say anything, or even reply.  
    
    You may not have been participating long enough to remember when I used
    to post Amnesty International letters here (there is a topic on them
    somewhere that I began several years ago), so this kind of idea -
    sending cards and letters to try and make the world a better place for
    all - is not something new for me.  Rama knew this when he sent me the
    initial request.
    
    Our motives?  To ultimately further the cause of peace on the planet,
    knowing that this kind of peace can only come about when people
    understand and feel that they are loved, in spite of what they have 
    done.  Perhaps it is selfish, I don't know.  Although I'm not a
    Christian per se, there is the story of Christ coming to the prostitute
    who was about to be stoned for her sins by the collective community,
    and instead he loved her enough - and she felt it enough - that she
    was completely changed by it.  While at the same time, the collective
    hate focused on her by the mob did absolutely nothing for her.
    
    Cindy

re.-1

    
>>    You're not required to do anything, say anything, or even reply.  

	Hi Cindy, 

		exactly...

re: others

	I have no idea what's going on....???!!!!

	%^|....confused, but happy,

	mikki

    Cindy,  your note has helped me clarify some of the problems I see with
    sending mail to some of the names on the current list.
    
    You want to send people messages showing that you love them *in spite
    of what they have done.*  This assumes that *they believe* they have done 
    wrong.  The idea is that if they see that they are loved in spite of 
    their behavior, they will love themselves and behave more lovingly.  
    However, *if they don't believe they have done wrong,*  then the message 
    may well boomerang or, even worse, reinforce their unloving behavior.  
    I have seen this happen repeatedly, for example within my own family.  
    Some people have built up such impervious defense systems that they can 
    justify any behavior toward anyone.   Happily, as one manager of mine
    used to like to quote "The mill of life grinds very slow, but it grinds
    exceedingly fine."  Only when life has ground the shell off their
    hearts can love act as a catalyst for their healing.  However, properly
    phrased, such a message might be able to work its way in.  Perhaps, in
    some cases, you could preface the message by reminding them gently of
    their "badness."  Although it might work best as a postscript.
    
    You mentioned in your last note the would-be stoning of Mary Magdalene. 
    Perhaps this shows how messages can be confused.  You believe that
    Jesus' love for a prostitute saved the prostitute from her self-hatred.  
    I believe that Jesus' love for her saved the crowd from their own
    self-hatred, which they projected onto her by declaring her behavior
    (earning her living in the only way she could) a sin and then trying to
    expiate their own sins by sacrificing her.  The issue was
    self-righteousness -- well, I may cheat for a few pennies now and then,
    but at least I'm not a <fill in worse scum than you>.  That thinking 
    needs replacement with the old saying, "there, but for the grace of god, go
    I."  (With noone every quite sure what the grace was or how to go about
    acquiring some.  oh, well ;-)
    
    Mary

    Hello Cindy and Mary,
    
    Thanks for your views in recent notes.  I wanted to comment on the story
    about Jesus and the woman who was nearly stoned for her adultry by a
    judging crowd.  There were a few more things that happened that have
    not been mentioned.
    
    Jesus interceded for the woman, looked at the crowd and announced, "Let
    he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone...".  That caused
    the crowd to stop their plans to do the stoning.  Then Jesus knelt down
    in the sand and began to write with his finger in the sand.  It was
    shortly after that that the crowd dispersed.  Why?  Well some Bible
    scholars and theologans believe that while Jesus was in human form he
    still had some manifestations of Divine ability.  So the
    interpretations I have heard of this are that Jesus, with his divine
    abilities could look directly into the hearts of the men who were
    about to stone the woman.  In this interpretation, some think that once
    the crowd had stopped their attempts to stone her, when Jesus knelt
    down and began writing with his finger in the sand, he was actually
    writing the names of the people in the crowd and their worst sins, so
    these could be placed in public display as they had publically exposed
    the sins of the woman they were about to stone.  Many feel it was this
    listing action which caused great embarassment and subsequent dispersal
    of the crowd.  Then he turns to the woman in love, after having
    prevented her stoning and says, "Go and sin no more...".
    
    I thought you two and some other readers in this conference might be
    interested in this interpretation of the same story.
    
    Bill

  Bruce is quite right. This conference exists to consider such "fringe"
  topics, and expecting discussion here to be "in the mainstream" or
  "normative" would be silly, if not downright unreasonable. The way
  some people talk, stuff like the existence of God is "on the fringe".
  Needless to say, while that skeptical view may be popular in major
  Western cities, it hardly reflects the norm, neither for Western
  society, nor for the world in general.

    Wearing my moderator hat...

    This thread of discussion has been borderline for some time, to say the
    least.  A noter has contacted me to say that they felt offended by what
    they perceived (reasonably, IMHO) as name calling.  I have therefore
    set most of the previous notes hidden.  I have been fairly ruthless
    about it -- just about anything that seemed to run in the sub-thread
    which started with .30.  Anyone who wishes a reclassification (either
    unhiding a note that I hid, or also hiding one that I let through)
    should contact me or one of the other moderators via mail.  Because of
    the number of notes/posters involved I will not follow the usual policy
    and contact individually each person whose note I set to be hidden.

    In general, folks, these issues are better handled "off-line" either
    through the auspices of one of the moderators or directly with the
    poster.  In public forums misunderstandings can too easily multiply,
    people (perhaps those on "both sides") can feel ganged up on, and
    people on the sidelines can become unwillingly involved too easily.

    And folks, generally our moderation policy is to keep hands-off unless
    someone complains.  If any note really offends you (not just bothers
    but offends) do not just wait for us to act -- let us or the poster
    know (generally people are quite willing to withdraw or rewrite notes
    if they are politely told that something in it offends someone).

    I appologize to anyone who feels offended either by the (now hidden)
    notes or by the necessity of hiding notes.

					Topher

    	 
    	"Perhaps everything terrible is in
    	 its deepest being something
    	 that needs our love."
    
    		-- Rainer Maria Rilke

    re: Cindy
    
         Just out of curiosity, do you extend these loving wishes to
    those close to you or only to those that are far away?  That is,
    do you extend these kinds of greetings to those who have abused
    you?  To parents, especially unkind parents, to the shadow, to
    the negative ego?  How far does the embrace go?  Can you really
    embrace all negativity?  I'm not making a personal comment; I'm
    simply asking if those who make these statements consider all
    aspects and are they also willing to carry the principles to the
    furthest extent possible.
    
    Frederick
    

    There are two schools of thought: one says changes of attitude
    will change behavior; the other says that changes of behavior
    will change attitudes.
    
    I suspect both are right.
    
    I suggest that the immobility which might prevent either is a kind
    of Hell; an emotional and spiritual imprisonment of self.
    
    Richard

    Frederick,  you asked a question that I was wondering myself.  I think
    that it is much easier to send these greetings to people far removed
    from us.  When I thought about that, I came back to my same dilemma. 
    You mention parents that may have abused us.  I know in my heart that I
    have forgiven mine.  However, I also know that if I send them greetings
    or open my heart to them, that I will be further abused.  In close
    relationships, many times the people that need healing the most simply
    refuse it.  It is easier for them to continue the old patterns and try
    to drag their "co-dependents" off the wagon with them.  And when you're
    outnumbered by 2 parents plus siblings, that's a lot of weight pulling
    you down.
    
    Mary

    re: .65 (Mary)
    
          Good points, but what is important to remember is that
    change is a four step process...you emphasized the first three
    (recognition, acknowledgement, and *forgiveness*) but don't 
    discount the fourth--CHANGE.  Changing does not mean going back
    to old patterns, forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting.  Sounds
    like your change is well-formed...you are now free to do what
    *you* want.  
    
    Frederick
      

    
    Yes, Frederick, I do.
    
    Cindy

                                       
    Re.68
    
    Mary,
    
    I began this note with good intentions.  And now it has come to this. 
    
    Although I did mention my divorce several years ago in this conference,
    I would appreciate it that if in the future you would ask me such 
    questions offline directly.  
    
    I realize that my not answering this question directly may imply that 
    I have not (forgiven my ex).  If it does, then believe what you will.  
    However I already answered the more general question that Frederick 
    posed a few notes ago, and therefore you can safely assume that, by 
    default, the answer includes my ex as well.
    
    Cindy

    
    I've set this note to writelock. If anyone would like to continue 
    this topic line, please create a new note.
    
    If you have any names or suggestions pertaining to .0, feel free to 
    contact either Rama or me offline.
    
    Thank you to those of you who have been of assistance here, in other
    conferences, and to us offline directly.
    
    Cindy