Conference hydra::dejavu

    I feel a tingling very much like you describe when I meditate and
    sometimes when I'm simply sitting quietly.  Sometimes, too, in a
    "rush."  I believe it is the flow of prana.
    
    Mary

    Hi,
    I've had a similar problem of experiencing "too much energy" whenever I
    have been particularly consistent at meditating, eating right and
    trying to live daily activity consciously.  In years past, I would
    start to feel tingling all over my body, high energy behind and through
    my eyeballs, and a lightness qround my skull that at times felt like my
    brain was open to the air. Pretty soon I'd start to feel very energized
    throughout my body, to the point of being able to work long hours, very
    clear headed. 
    
    However, inevitably, I'd begin experiencing the high energy as tension
    that was too much for my body to handle. Then old the old tapes and
    programs of my mind would start to play and I'd wind up boozing and
    hitting all of the daily addictions which "help" me to go unconscious
    again: tv., junk food, impatience, arrogance etc.
    
    Recently, during an especially "breakthrough" up cycle, I began to feel
    not only tingling in my skull but also in my face. This went on for a
    few weeks, and as I was able to maintain my discipline, I also noticed
    that I began to loose interest in daily work, felt somewhat depressed
    and unmotivated. Sure enough, the old tapes came to the rescue. Had a
    few brews, some Ben and Jerry's and several hours of couch potatoing,
    and voila', back to "normal".
    
    For a long time I have thought that this experience was not unusual for 
    meditators, and that the role of guides (masters, senseis, gurus,
    teachers) is among other things, to help the beginner to work through
    these stages of entry on the journey towards greater understanding of
    oneself, others and the life journey. I therefore support your impulse
    to obtain guidance from your therapist, guide. It is an approach I have
    never thought of, since I never associated medical plan accepting
    therapists (which is all I could afford) with playing this role.
    
    Luz, amor y poder  on your journey within.
    
    Krrll
    

    Just getting into serious meditation myself, I too, have noticed the
    tingling sensation. Although I have meditated before, I have never
    really gotten down on the flow into any particular positions with my
    hands in front of me and in a semi open cupped position. I have never
    experienced the energy flow before either. I figure it is the energy
    finally flowing through me or else I'm doing this wrong and various
    body parts are having their circulation cut off. :-) Seriously, I very
    much think it is the universal energy flowing through you.
    
    PJ

    
    I'll try to remember to enter in some book titles which may help you to
    further understand what's going on.
    
    In the meantime, remember to *breathe* into the experience.  Breathing
    helps to balance and integrate the energy so that you can handle it.
    Breathe in through your nose, filling the bottom of the lungs first,
    then the center, then the top - go about to 2/3rds capacity, then
    exhale through your mouth.  Do this at a relatively slow pace -
    whatever feels right for you.  If you're so inclined, doing yoga will
    also help to balance and integrate the energy.  In place of yoga, do
    light stretching before meditating.
    
    Eventually when I have the time, I'll enter some basic pranayams
    (yogic breathing exercises) into the Kripalu Yoga topic.
    
    Cindy

RE: .2

Krrll,

	Hi, are you linking the periods of "high energy" with an unfounded
	mood of despondency in your Note? I ask since I find very often of
	late (the last few months), I feel as if I am in a dream-like state
	at times, there is an accompanying light-headedness; this feeling may
	occur at any time, even when, say, in a moving car whilst others are
	talking - not a time when you would normally expect to feel in such a
	manner. I feel "detached" from the run-of-the-mill physical world,
	however I should say I do not experience any visual effects at all.
	As you have said, I have also (rather worrying) experienced periods of
	prolonged depression without obvious cause and a general lack of 
	interest and motivation in work. The occurrence of these phases seem
	to be more frequent of late too. Do you believe the two are linked, and
	can you offer any explanation for either?
	I perhaps should mention that I feel drawn to negative/despondent music
	especially at the moment, (hence my present Personal Name)...
	do you think this has a link?
	Any ideas, comments, explanations from others would be appreciated.

								- JIM CAD*

    Jim -1. Are you studying meditation by yourself or are you part of a
    group, or possess a Guide? You may want to seek advice from an
    experienced practitioner as it is easy to wander off 'effect-tripping'
    and lose sight of the objective ? 
    
    -Brian

RE: -1

Hi,
	Strangely enough, I am not actually studying/practicing meditation at
	all! I do however, sometimes practice relaxation but this is only every
	now and again these days. I simply wondered if some of the info in the
	previous note would be relevent to me, since some similar experiences
	were mentioned (although, as I said I have never experienced intense
	effects at all). Some explanation or perhaps guidance as how to further
	progress to "find myself" would help - I have talked at length via
	E-mail with one other DEJAVUer about just the same strange detached
	feeling that I get, however then I did not mention the phases of 
	despondency... and I am still of the opinion that, say, my housemates
	do not experience the same thing, so I wonder whether it is just day-
	dreaming or pure imagination on my part.

								- JIM CAD*

	BTW - being a Piscean I should be one of the more naturally inclined
	      people to have a mind to "extra-ordinary" aspects of life. I
	      thought this could contribute too.

    This was actually a reply to something I saw in 1541.0, but
    I later saw 1563.* and decided to put it in here.
    
    
   1541.0,

-> FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
->
->      Is there any significance to the cricket sound she's been
-> hearing?

   Funny thing, but I don't believe it has anything to do with UFOs
   or Aliens, although I don't have an explanation for it. This is
   because I hear it all the time, and the sound has no spatial or
   temporal location. It is wherever I am, whenever I wish to hear
   it, all around and within me. It is not an objective sound like
   the one that you hear from a radio. Its more like a sound that
   has dispensed with the intermediate instruments of hearing, like
   an imagined piece of music.

   My own shot at explaining this phenomenon is that it is a mental
   activity somewhat like thinking. When I stop thinking, my mind
   isn't actually still, but perceiving the steady cricket sound.
   
   Its quite interesting to find so many entries recently on 'tingling'
   and other things during meditation. What happens, I suspect, is that
   when the 'external sense perceptions' are shut out, the minds activity
   doesn't immediately cease. It takes on a subtle activity in the form
   of heard sounds, seen effulgences, and tactile feelings like tingling.
   (I won't be surprised if somebody says they smelt a sweet scent or 
    felt a sugary taste.)

   The best thing in such cases, by my reckoning, is to continue with
   the meditation until this activity begins to subside and to ignore
   those activities just as one has ignored external impressions. By 
   concentrating on things like sounds or feelings, those things are
   perpetuated just as by thinking more and more, the mind becomes
   restless.

   Jana
    
    
    Re. -1, Jim, it is not essential for one to have been 'practicing
    meditation' to get those feelings. But you might wish to try out
    something as a result of those feelings.
    
    Jana

    
        Re -2,
    
->	BTW - being a Piscean I should be one of the more naturally inclined
->	      people to have a mind to "extra-ordinary" aspects of life. I
->	      thought this could contribute too.
    
        I couldn't help laughing at this one, being a fellow sign-mate. I
        never knew Pisceans could distinguish the 'ordinary' from the 'extra
        ordinary'. 
    
        Jana

    The effects that Jim Cad* describes sound familiar.  I do not meditate,
    although I use breathing alot to relax (slow, deep, controlled).  I get
    sensations similar to the "open skull", high energy, and slight visual 
    displacement, however, I am able to continue with what I am doing.
    
    I have found that when the energy is high, my free form dancing helps -
    the energies are either grounded away or channeled into a goal while
    dancing (I do this consciously).
    
    I have seen partial explanations of what this is, what is happening,
    but could I get a more complete explanation.  I have never really tried
    yoga or meditation (except maybe 5 minutes worth to help relax once in a
    while), yet find that, from several things described in various topics,
    I experience some of the "effects" associated with these things.  I
    don't try to "go for" the effects, but feel that there is a reason why
    I can produce them.  So I would like to understand them better.
    
    Beth  

Books recommended:

1. "Take A Deep Breath!", by Loehr and Migdow

    This book was written by two doctors.  One of the doctors is a resident
    at Kripalu Center.  Excellent.  All of the main yogic breathing 
    exercises are included.

2. "Body Of Light", by Mann and Short

    This book provides references to the energy/etheric body from all of
    the major world religions.  The second section of the book is dedicated
    to exercises to awaken your own energy body (two breathing exercises
    are included).

3. "Stalking The Wild Pendulum", by Itzhak Bentov

    This book talks about the mechanics of consciousness, including the
    holographic theory.  The most valuable section re: meditation tingling
    is one of the appendices.  Several case studies are presented, along
    with a table of 12 cases and their physical and psychological states.

    His book entitled "The Cosmic Book" with Mirtala is also excellent.

4. "Helping People In Spiritual Emergency", by Emma Bradgon

    See the DEJAVU topic on Spiritual Experiences for an excerpt from
    this book.

5. "Pranic Healing", by Sui

    Kind of an advanced book - one for after you've experienced your energy
    body to some degree, however reading through it beforehand might give
    you an intellectual frame of reference for you to work from when you
    do sense your energy body and can begin to work with it.

Cindy

    Tingling? ...what tingling??
    
    8^}

    
    Re.5 and .7
    
    Jim,
    
    The first couple of times I seriously meditated, I had the same problem
    - detachment.  It was weird, so I stopped.  A week or so later, I was
    reading one of my multitude of books, and found out that if this kind
    of thing happens, then one should stop that kind of meditation for a
    while.
    
    A friend at Kripalu then suggested reading "The Miracle Of Mindfulness"
    by Thich Nat ???  (does anyone know his full name - he's the Buddhist
    who worked for peace during the Vietnam war, and was nominated for a
    Nobel Peace Prize by Dr. ML King.)  The approach is to be super
    conscious and aware of every waking action you are in.  It helps to
    'ground' you in this plane of existance, and it helped me immensely.
    
    Additionally, I discovered that I was experiencing a severe lack of
    'grounding', and there are actually exercises you can do to charge your
    hara - the energy center around your navel.  On top of this, I added in
    a yoga asana tape specifically for opening the chakras - particularly
    the lower 3, and I'm doing much better now.  If you'd like information
    about the tapes, let me know.
    
    I find that meditation with my eyes open helps as well.  It's kind of
    unusual, but give it a try - focus in on a point and meditate on that.
    
    The other night I was reading a book called the Vedanta Treatise.  I
    met the author a few weeks ago - a swami who founded the Vedanta School
    in Bombay (I read the INDIA file too...).  Brilliant work - absolutely
    brilliant.  However, I don't know if the work is readily available
    since I bought it while at the session he gave.  One note on meditation
    - it is really the last technique - the finishing touch to put you in
    touch with your true Self - not something you begin with.  Start with
    yoga/exercise, breathing, and mindfulness.  Eventually when you get to
    a state where your thoughts are calm, then try deeper meditation
    (paraphrased from the book from memory).
    
    Cindy

    Jim,
    
    When you say you feel detached from the everyday physical world, do you
    mean this as a physical experience, or emotionally detached from
    day-to-day affairs.  While you should, when meditating, feel a sense of
    "letting go" of daily concerns, you also should, as Cindy mentions, be
    totally aware of what is going on around you.  I was taught the best
    way to handle feelings, sensations, thoughts and other "events" while
    meditating, is to simply take note of them and then let it go.  There
    is no danger and therefore no cause for concern.  Just allow the
    process to happen...it all takes care of itself anyway.
    
    I remember some 22 years ago when I led my high school gym class in
    a guided meditation.  Just as I was leading the class back to everyday
    consciousness, the "class is over" bell rang.  Although people were
    fully aware of the bell, to the astonishment of the gym teacher, noone
    leapt to their feet and ran to the showers.  Even when she walked
    around clapping and yelling it was time to get up, everyone simply
    chose to follow my voice and gently stirred and stretched.  And then
    got up and quietly walked to the locker room with smiles on serene
    faces and eyes shining.
    
    Mary

Hi All,

	Thanks for the replies to my entry. I feel I shall have to dig up
	some more material on this subject to put my "accidental" meditation
	in a more definite and useful direction! I fairly often receive a 
	posting from Thorsons books (which includes the Aquarian Press range)
	so that'll be a good place to start looking...

	Cheers.

								- JIM CAD*

Mary,

	The feeling seems to be somehow physical, I had an extreme "case" whilst
	in the pub recently (of all places). It's worth noting I hadn't drunk
	seventeen pints at the time either :-), just one or two.
	A friend that I had only recently come to know were discussing strange
	experiences, and I had recently been reading a lot of the UFO conspiracy
	material... however I did not know whether to mention this to said new
	friend for fear of him thinking me looney-tunes! He too, had some
	experiences he was not too keen to start talking about straight away, 
	but I convinced him to talk a bit about himself and interests. Strangely
	enough, he eventually came to mentioning the Fatima papers - a series
	of Biblical texts hidden to mankind because they apparently reveal 
	things which we are not ready to know. I was amazed because this is one
	element of the UFO conspiracy, which claims that Pope John Paul I was
	killed because he was going to reveal the texts in a public speech. I
	was amazed because over a period of several days I had encountered
	references to the UFO material time and again. Since he mentioned the
	texts I was off, and explained about the UFO material to him.
	After a period of deep conversation my mind was working feverishly in
	thought but I really began to feel almost as if I was asleep, and I
	ceased to talk... after a while my friend commented on my silence but
	the feeling continued for some time. I really felt as if my surroundings
	were not physical until the "physical-ness" of the beer glass on my 
	table struck me and then I "snapped out of it" - back to normal. I feel
	affected by my screen at work too and spent most of my time in a "daze".
	I must say I do not find the experience displeasurable, indeed it is
	very peaceful, which is why I considered further looking into this area,
	although I had never actually considered meditation until now.
	I'll have to think some more about it...

	Thanks.

								- JIM CAD*

The question of `tingling' during `meditation' really is most interesting. 
It raises so many issues about the different forms of meditation that exist, 
and the various categories of experience that can ensue. 
Here are a few comments.

From experience of inner work with a number of groups in which several 
categories of `meditation' play a major role, I would say that `tingling' can 
have a very different significance in different persons. It can also mean 
something different in the same person at different times.

A central question must always be the psycho-physical point of departure of 
the person having the experience. Meditation can begin from very different 
motives, on the ground of very different emotional and physical states.
Though all may converge eventually, for a long time the motive matters.

When someone reports sensations unusual for them, I always take a great 
interest in their meditation posture. This can be such as to facilitate 
relaxation and flows of various kinds. Alternatively it can cause blockages 
not only to nerve and blood, but also to finer flows which are much more 
susceptible than the mainly physical. There is not one right posture for all
persons, for all occasions - for ever. Exploration is essential. Of course, 
the overall emotional state is absolutely crucial too, especially where there 
are residues of anxiety, expectation, or other, mainly `negative', emotions.
The general physical state is also relevant, including diet, excercise, 
stress, and habits of tension. But hanging over all of these, there is the 
question of sex energy. 

Meditation is concerned, intentionally or not, with the ingestion, flow, 
transformation, and perhaps manifestation, of the finer qualities of energy 
actually or potentially present in human beings. Sex energy is a very fine 
and powerful one, automatically manufactured in us. Its fate is central to 
our psycho-physical harmony. Our inner sexual `climate' cannot help being 
relevant to our experience in meditation. Confident sexual activity produces 
one climate; clear-cut, fully accepted, sexual abstinence another; 
sexual ambiguity and frustration another. I would always take particular note
if a woman was pregnant (this is a very special condition, requiring a very 
specially gentle and caring approach to all form of inner work). I have no 
doubt that an unborn baby whose mother has the inclination to meditate 
receives a very good start in life. I would also take note if a woman had had 
a baby within the previous two years as a woman's psycho-physical condition 
seems to retain the powerful impact of this great generative process much 
longer than one might suppose.

It also important to be clear about a person's range of experience and the 
type of meditation they are practising. It is remarkable how beginners can go
very deep thanks to the innocent capacity to let themselves plunge into the 
unknown within. More experienced persons can be blocked by the inner deposits 
of former experience and new ways must be found of leaving all that behind. 
There are also differences according to whether a meditation is based, for 
example, on a `mantra', `on visualization', on `breating', on `movement' or 
whatever. While using all of these, I most often propose, to those who come 
to me for guidance in this field, to begin with various forms of silent, 
image-free, meditation, very much related to increasingly alert awareness of 
the body and its inner energies.

From all the foregoing, it is evident that `tingling' can be of different 
qualities. It can be a very deep and positive gift. However, since the finest 
energies are experienced very subtly, it is more likely that `tingling' is due 
to finer energy not yet very evenly sensed throughout oneself, nor harmoniously
integrated with one's awareness. This would be typical for beginners.
Still positive, but less profound, there are forms of `tingling' that can be 
the result of various inner readjustments, as if entangled rubber `pipe-cables'
carrying some kind of electrical circuits were sorting themselves out and 
unblocking, or snapping more into their appropriate places. This would be 
typical of a beginner or someone meditating more for therapy than for innner 
growth. Finally, and least interesting, if there has been a significant 
narrowing of attention and shift of consciousness, coupled possibly with 
imperfect attention to posture, there can be various effects from irregular 
breathing or constricted blood flow, and perhaps even pressure on nerves. 
These effects can be encountered in conditions where, for example, some 
kind of hypnotic or trance state has been involved. These are all broad 
possibilities. It is impossible to be more sure without thorough 
person-to-person investigation.

That meditation is often accompanied by sensations of `warmth', `flow',
`heaviness', `tingling', and the like, is a common experiential fact among 
`meditators'. For those who do not meditate, an assurance that these 
experiences are not purely imagined is provided by the fact that in hypnosis 
and meditation there are measurable alterations in nerve activity and blood 
supply mediated by mainly autonomic processes that used to be regarded as 
entirely involuntary. The control of blood flow under hypnosis is a fact. 
Its explanation is by no means clear cut, as can be seen from a serious 
factual book such as `The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing' by E.L.Rossi.
However, the combination of increased awareness and actual changes give very 
definite subjectively experienced `effects'. For me, the important thing is 
neither to dismiss these `effects', not to encourage preoccupation with them 
and thereby foster interest in `effect tripping' (thanks Brian).

In practice, I do not like to use either the physiological `nerve-blood' 
terminology, in relation to meditation, nor the traditional oriental 
`prana-kundalini-chakra' terminology. What matters is the experience itself, 
in the context of the fact that a human being who is more fully awake and 
aware CANNOT HELP having a more continuous and more intimate experience of 
his or her own body.

This awareness includes such experiences as its weight, its breath, its warmth,
its sensitivity, its balance of tension with relaxation, and the subtle 
micro-flows and tranformations taking place in the `life energy' within it. 
The differences between people of different categories of self-awareness 
surely lies partly in the degree to which these inner processes are more 
`structured', and partly in the scope and constancy of that awareness.

In short, I would say that `tingling' during meditation can be a joyfully 
positive confirmation of the gift to me of `life', and confirmation that there 
is a continuing relationship between that gift and its source. At the same time,
`tingling' may be evidence that I am not living harmoniously, so that my 
experience of that `life' is too infrequent, too unfamiliar, and too awkward.

But I am convinced that this situation, like my meditation posture,
my state of relaxation, and my power of attention, can improve.

Yours.      Chris.

Re .16 and earlier.

Hi Jim,

If you had not already noticed, we are often in the same building.
I have `seen' you a number of times and could say some things in relation
to this exchange of notes. However, I respect your privacy and contact is
up to you.

If you think it could be helpful, and that we might be travelling in a 
similar direction, why not inspect me, at your leisure, then make contact
if you like.

Yours     Chris.

    Jim,
    
    Somehow drinking (even just 1 or 2 ;-) and meditating seem to contradict
    each other.  Since alcohol cuts off the supply of oxygen to the brain,
    my guess is that the physical detachment you feel is due to the
    alcohol.  Also, alcohol can cause a kind of tingling sensation on your
    skin, which is not the same as the tingling from meditation.  This
    tingling is a precurser to a numb sensation.
    
    A couple years ago when I had a minor medical ailment that required
    that I remove a gauze "wick" that was stuffed into an abcess, I drank 2
    beers before proceeding.  Didn't feel a thing.  If I'd meditated
    instead, I would have felt every millimeter of that gauze, although
    presumably I would have remained sufficiently calm and serene that the
    pain sensations would have been minimal.  Hah!  Haven't learned to
    trust the process to that degree, yet, so I took the liquid way out!
    ;-)
    
    Mary

    Thanks Chris and Cindy for all that great info. 
    
    Jim I suspect too that when talking to your friend about things that
    you both felt as if they where amazingingly unreal, you may have tripped
    into "the twilight zone" ;-) (I call it thus) and it is a kind of a
    surreal world your mind can enter when your whole structure of
    previously held beliefs/reality is rocked by the acquisition and
    pre-occupation of "mind-boggeling" info or experience. Exactly the
    stuff that Cindy was highlighting in a recent note. 
    
    I have had similar experiences but it dissapears if the experience or
    knowledge can be put into perspective by the mind.
    
    >                                          Hah!  Haven't learned to
    >  trust the process to that degree, yet, so I took the liquid way out!
    
    re Mary. My wife tells the story of the oriental gentleman who would
    attended their Dental clinic. He would order them out of the room for +/-
    5 minutes, meditate and then call them back in to commence the
    treatment, which could be as severe as tooth extraction! No drugs,
    tranquilizers, aneasthetics etc (..cringe...;-) 
    
    	-Brian

    Alcohol can have rather paradoxical effects. Fritz Peters, who was a
    student of Gurdjieff enter an awakened state for the first time when G
    got him very drunk. 
    	Back in my teens I experimented with deep breathing. I would take
    about 10 deep fast breaths, then slow the pace to keep from getting too
    dizzy. After about a hundred breaths my body would tingle all over,
    almost as if it was on fire. Unfortunately, I didn't have any data to
    make it useful. It was really rather unpleasant so I didn't do it more
    than a few times. 
    
    john

    re: .21
    
    Sounds like you were hyperventilating.
    
    Mary

    Oh Jeez.... I'm am forced to come to my own defense.
    
    This is the technique used by the  rebirthing people to induce
    re-experiencing birth trauma. I think that it works by a combination of
    suggestion and overwhelming the defense mechanisms by hyper-energizing
    the nervous system. The rebirthing people say that most people are
    underventilated ie they need more oxygen to fully experience life.
    Instead they take booze etc to cut back on reality even further.
    
    john

    
    John,
    
    You were hyperventilating only if you were actively exhaling (as
    opposed to passively exhaling).
    
    During my own Vivation (rebirth) experience, it took me about 20
    breaths to feel the tingling, and this sensation is quite natural.
    The oxygen feeds the prana in our body and makes the energy body come
    alive.  Whenever I do it, colors in life suddenly become super bright,
    and my awareness of everything increases exponentially.
    
    Cindy

    
    Additional - if you continue to do Vivation/rebirth breathing
    consistantly for an hour, you will experience integration - the body
    brings up old junk stored in it and allows you to feel it.  It can be
    unpleasant, however the secret is to just continue breathing and acting
    as the witness to what is going on  It's the same as doing yoga and
    holding a posture beyond your tolerance limit - when you breathe into
    it, you can experience the unpleasantness and eventually the body
    integrates the unpleasant experience - then it is resolved.  Same thing
    is going on - getting at the stuff stored in your body - except that
    Vivation intensifies the experience due to the rate of breathing.
    
    Cindy

Hi Cindy,

	Fascinating ;-|
		    ^
		    |
	     (raised eyebrow),
	is there further discussion of this elsewhere, or can you explain some
	more about this subject please.

	Cheers.

								- JIM CAD*

    
    Hi Jim,
    
    See topic 1484 - Vivation/Rebirth.  Since I last participated in that
    topic, I've read a few books on both Vivation and rebirth, however have
    not updated the topic with my new insights...the primary one being that
    hyperventilation only occurs when you actively exhale.
    
    Cindy

    NeoReichian Breathwork has become quite the thing among counselors and
    the Recovery Movement.  A spinoff of this, breathwork with music, has
    been popularized by Stanislaus and Christina Grof, who come to Sierra
    Tucson (AZ.) on a regular basis.
    
    I just tingled until I was oxygen-saturated, and then it was just hard
    work.. no emotional breakthroughs.  Though I have witness others that
    got lots out of it.  Like Second Birth Matrix stuff.
    
    karl