Conference hydra::dejavu

    I tend to think that anyone who would willingly be a guinea pig
    for this test is likely to be someone who's been
    plagued by unwanted visions or trances, such as someone suffering
    from schizophrenia.  In other words, it's a self-selected group and the
    data on this will be biased.  People who are living normal lives but
    have occasional psychic visions are unlikely to volunteer.
    
    Sue  

    re: .2, Marcos,
    
>	It's believed that some
>    "visions", "mystic trances" or altered states of consciousness are just
>    a consequence of hallucinogens secreted by the brain itself. 
    
    Thanks for this interesting topic, Marcos.  
    
    I think we should specify where there is technical data and
    observation, though, and where there is clearly interpretation or
    editorial comment.  That's a key to a successful technical
    discussion, IMO.
    
    'We can change A by doing B' does not prove that B causes A, and 
    certainly not that B is the sole significant cause.   
    
    Have you ever heard the old joke about frogs with no legs being
    deaf ?  They don't respond when you ask them to jump.  :*)
    
    Observation :
    	Norepinephrine is given to patients reporting extra-sensory phenomena.
    	Extra-sensory phenomena then are reported to stop.
    
    Conclusion 1 :
    	Endorphins were causing hallucinations, therefore blocking their
    	action causes hallucinations to stop.
    
    Conclusion 2 :
    	Endorphins are neccessary to the reception of telepathic
    	communication, therefore blocking their action causes such
    	communication to stop.   
    
    Conclusion 3 :
    	Endorphins are integral to releasing the information locked in
    	DNA sequences and bringing it into awareness of a subject.
    
    	You see how your working hypothesis shapes your conclusion ?
    	Others trying to learn from your data may often need to separate 
    	it from the conclusion to use it.
    
    	I'm not saying that anyone mentally ill is therefore telepathic :-),
    	but there is actually some evidence that some of the phenomena
    	reported (in Schizophrenia) is related to perception of physical
    	stimulii in ways that are enhanced (physical stimulii that are
    	not perceptible by the majority of the population, such as
    	electric currents and so on.   I think we touched on this topic
    	recently in PSYCHOLOGY, too.
    
    							todd

    I'm quite sure that in the future science will verify most
    psychic experiences, and will come up with numerous impressive
    reasons why psychic experiences occur.  Unfortunately, that will
    be a little late for those who were persecuted in the past for
    being psychic.
    
    Sue

    Marcos,  I really question your objectivity.  Do you know anything
    about the medical history of the subjects studied?  You can't find
    out about psychics by studying schizophrenics.  In other words,
    while some schizophrenics may be psychic, not all psychics are
    schizophrenic.  
    
    Sue
    
    

    re: .9,
    	Interesting point, Sue.  The idea of the biased sample
    	recurs frequently in this field, I think.  I remember an excellent
    	explanation a while back from Steve K. about how split brain
    	experiments (and consequently much of the basis for the ever-popular 
    	left brain/right brain theories) are neccessarily performed on 'Split 
    	Brain Patients,' which is a biased sample not neccessarily with the 
    	same neural functioning as 'Non Split Brain Patients,'  making 
    	extension of some of the results still interesting of course, but less
    	conclusive than might be otherwise assumed.
    
    						kind regards,
    
    						todd

    The more I think about that study the more annoying I think
    it is.  In a feeble sort of way, I consider that I have
    psychic abilities.  They are part of my intelligence, like
    any other sort of ability, and I would never consent to
    seeing if they could be removed.  Would you consent to be a
    guinea pig to see if they could lower your IQ by twenty points?
    Obviously, the people who consented to be tested were not 
    average healthy people who just happened to be psychic.  And
    in the end, what did it prove?  That they could stop hallucinations
    with drugs?  Big deal.  They can also stop logical thought
    processes with the right drugs, or normal emotional reactions.
    

    There is no need to be annoyed.  The problem is in a simple error in
    the interpretation of the results -- in all liklihood, *not* by the
    people who were conducting the tests, who probably did not consider
    themselves as conducting a parapsychology experiment.  This sounds like
    a simple psychopharmocology study on the causes of hallucinations.  I
    should also mention that the procedure described would only have
    temporary effects in any case -- roughly speaking, of the same duration
    of a single shot of morphine in relieving chronic pain.

				    Topher

    ah, thank you, Topher!  I feel much better :-)  Hated thinking
    about all those poor people stumbling around minus their visions.
    
    Sue

    I know, Sue... it would be like suddenly becoming blind and deaf.

    It all seems very irrelevant to me... you can come up with all of the
    physical explanations of how light bounces off the retina and transmits
    electronic messages to the brain too... what difference does it make?
    None as far as I can tell.

  
  Re .15 (Marcos)
  
  > The same way that under danger the adrenal medulla outputs more adrenaline, 
  > certain emotional stimuli may cause the thalamus to output more endorphins
  > causing these visions.
  
  eg., meditation / trance state or even simple release of pressure (a walk in
  the fresh air after too long staring at a screen in the office, "getting away
  from it all") ?  Sounds reasonable ... please continue !
  
  Frank

    Re .5

    >It's known that days before the dissapearence of Krakatoa on august
    >26th 1883, the animals dived in the sea trying to flee to nearby
    >islands. Days before the big flood in Holland in 1961, rats, rabbits
    >and other animals fled to the hills.

    Now Krakatoa was a bit before my time so I cannot make any comment on
    it, however the floods in Holland are a different matter. Apart from
    the historical inaccuracy, it happened in 1953 not 1961, I have just
    spoken to some people who lived through it. They have no recollection
    of animals fleeing. Mind you they might just not have noticed. 

    But they did point out that most of the flooding was on islands and
    only a small part of the flooding was on the mainland. The islands were
    completely swamped. As to the assertion that they, "Fled to the hills".
    Well Holland is not called the low countries for nothing. Large parts
    of it are below sea level and hills just don't happen here. So I feel
    that I must be skeptical on that claim.

    Re .15

    >The point was that "visions" seem to have some relationship to
    >endorphins secreted by the thalamus.

    Nit picking I know, but the endorphins are secreted by the pituitary
    gland. The thalami are two egg shaped masses of grey matter that
    lie deep in the cerebral hemispheres in each side of the forebrain and
    they are relay stations for sensory messages that enter the brain
    before they enter the cortex.
    
    Jamie.

    
    Personally, I think "Science" attacks this matter from the rear.
    
    It is hard for me to believe that the brain just out of the blue begins
    to secrete hormones causing people to hallucinate so conveniently as
    discribed in the basenote.  I mean, the boy was seeking an answer,
    could not his desire (undetectable by scientific equipment) have caused
    him to go into trance and speak with his dead father?  Africans have
    claimed to do this for ages.  The Egyptians built their cosmology based
    on the belief in the "living ancestors".
    
    It seems to me that the hormones the brain may secrete are only
    secondary to the primary objective of revelation and trance and
    communication with those in another dimension.
    
    Sometimes the "altered state" of consciousness happens as a direct
    stimulas of some external source.  But on the same token, it seems
    quite possible that if it can happen at all, if properly understood it
    can be mastered and controlled...this is what the ancient wise have
    claimed to do.
    
    I believe there is a difference between "altered states of
    consciousness" and "hallucinations".  "Hallucinations" are not altered
    conscious states, but merely altered mental imaginations. 
    
    Playtoe

    Re 5
    
    I'm truly amazing that someone would consider animals more advanced
    than humans...animals have "psychic" abilities, humans have some degree
    thereof!
    
    Animals *do not* have psychic abilities IMO.  They operate purely on
    instinct.  They sensed the indications of the impending disaster and
    instinctively split the scene...I don't see "psychic" power in this.
    
    Playtoe

    Science attacks the problem from many directions simultaneously -- this
    is only one line of research.

    Hallucinations are a characteristic of certain altered states of
    consciousness.  The most thouroughly studied one is REM sleep, where we
    call the hallucinations dreams (somewhere in this conference, not too
    long ago, I posted a technical definition of hallucination, and pointed
    out that in the technial sense of the term it does not need to carry
    any negative or pathological connotations).

					Topher

    RE: 21
    
    Hi,
    
    If "dreams" are classified as "hallucinations" you open a can of worms,
    and skew the technical discussion of psychic experience into
    ambiguiety.  I mean if LSD trips are made equal with dreams, and dreams
    can and are interpreted and do sometimes come true, should we then
    expect hallocinations to become reality as well.  I mean can we expect
    that someday, the hallucination of a city in the desert may someday be
    a reality?  
    
    Does science purpose the event of speaking with the dead from the
    perspective of the "trance"?  I mean do they got into trance and seek
    to contact the dead?  I saw "Flatliners"!
    
    Playtoe

    I did not say that they were "equal" nor that they were identical any
    more than saying that both a mouse and a whale are are both mammals
    means that they are equal or identical.  An hallucination is  something
    interpreted as sensory but which is not derived directly from the senses.
    Dreams qualify, as do LSD induced "visions", but mirages do not.

    That some kinds of hallucinations are sometimes, or even always,
    veridical does not mean that we must accept all kinds of hallucinations
    as veridical.  It does encourage us to ask questions such as to what
    extent relative to dreams that LSD hallucinations, or schizophrenic
    hallucinations or whatever have veridical content: never, less often
    but sometimes, about as often, more often or (unlikely) always?

    Science, in the form of psychical research and parapsychology have been
    investigating the question of speaking with the dead through trance for
    over a century.  Results have been mixed -- particularly in connection
    with distinguishing the results from psi phenomenon not involving post
    mortem survival.  Since talent in this seems to vary with from
    individual to individual, most of this work has involved the scientist
    interviewing people with some apparent talent during and after their
    ostensible trance contacts.  Many parapsychologists have, however,
    personally had such experiences, either deliberately or spontaneously.

    I don't know of anyone who has done experiments such as in Flatliners
    -- i.e., deliberately killing themselves with a hope that, with
    preparation they could be revived.  Despite the claims of the movie,
    the only scientific experiment involved revival of the clinically dead.
    The experiences of the students who were killed only represented
    interesting but extremely dangerous personal experiences, not
    scientific experiments.  I kept on saying to myself throughout the
    movie, "if they are going to do this stupid thing in the name of
    'science', why don't they put some trace of science into it, instead
    of playing macho games of seeing who dares to be dead the longest."
    They could have made some attempt, for example, to attempt to correlate
    the length of the "postmortem experience" with the length of time
    brain-dead, vs cardiac-dead, under blind conditions.

					Topher

    re: .26, (chemical messages through the mail),
    
    "Sorry, my dog attacked and ate your collection notice.  You didn't
    happen to use aggression pheromones on it, did you ?"  :*)
    	
    Interesting new form of communication if it catches on.
    
    I noticed that they didn't happen to say what the money smelled like when 
    the intimidated recipients of this chemical message 'scent' it in.
    These messages can work both ways ...
    
    							todd

   I'm not sure I like this.  In fact, I'm sure I don't.

   What about people who are already desperate, on the edge?  Things may not
   be going well for a person who isn't or can't pay his/her bills.  What's
   an aggression pheromone going to provoke?

   Does it have the same effect on women, children, household pets?  Our
   society is too weird as it is without adding more reasons for weirdness.


   							Terza

  
  The way to reply to such junk is to submit a cheque written on toilet
  paper : as long as you word it correctly it is as legal as any that
  you tear out of your cheque book but they might just get the message
  as to what they can do with their bill ...
  
  Hopefully the Post Office rules for sending unpleasant substances via
  mail should trap this : I'd certainly complain if a letter or present
  arrived stinking of their spray-on sweat simply because it happened to
  be next to someone else's bill in the postbag. 
  
  Frank

>  arrived stinking of their spray-on sweat simply because it happened to
>  be next to someone else's bill in the postbag. 
    
    That's a good point.  The poor postpersons will end up with everyone
    else's pheromone rhetoric.  We'll have affectively disordered
    postal workers all over the place.  Hmmmm, judging from the
    statistics on postal workers who have breakdowns, maybe this has
    already been happening ?    Time for another great conspiracy theory,
    I think !!
    
    								todd

    Sooner or later some bright spark is going to try spraying letters with
    sex pheromones which will no doubt make the postman's life more colourful.

    Jamie.

    That's been tried (there was a perfume based on sex pheromones on the
    market for about five minutes) but it was a dismal failure.  It was
    found that
    
    a) all sex pheromones are not created equal - within the same gender
    pheremones differ based on weight, height, muscle ratio, race, &
    several other factors that are usually considered arbitrary physical
    attraction
    
    b) female pheromones, when isolated, have no effect on women
    
    c) male pheromones, when isolated, make men hostile
    
    
    Ginny

I don't recall where I read it, but an experiment had to men
be fully sterilized and deoderized, then they worked out.
One showered and used soap and other "deoderants", the second
just rinsed off.  The two then were placed in a room with 
several women.  The women "preferred" the man with the "natuaral:"
odor (I hate stupid terminal emulatiors!!!).

My description may be inaccurate but efxxxxxxx enough evidence
was found to support the theory that plain old sweat was a 
"turn on".

Beth
           <<< Note 1550.32 by POCUS::FERGUSON "I'm working on it" >>>
                      -< Yeah but not the way you think >-

    That's been tried (there was a perfume based on sex pheromones on the
    market for about five minutes) but it was a dismal failure.  It was
    found that
    
    a) all sex pheromones are not created equal - within the same gender
    pheremones differ based on weight, height, muscle ratio, race, &
    several other factors that are usually considered arbitrary physical
    attraction
    
    b) female pheromones, when isolated, have no effect on women
    
    c) male pheromones, when isolated, make men hostile
    
    
    Ginny

    Re .18
    
    I would like to report that prior to the flooding in the Netherlands
    recently the animal population showed no unusual signs and did not
    flee.
    
    Jamie.
    
    

    
    	Perhaps the animals feared more for their jobs in these '90's than
    the flooding.  they put their intinctive fear behing them and decided
    that they might be replaced by "temp wildlife" afterwards.
    	On a more serious note, we in the States, hear on network news that
    much of the flooding is due to increased agricultural rapid runoff
    drainage and the vast increase in paved urban areas in the Ruhr. Not
    to create a rathole, (hardly anyone's left anyway), is that spin being
    fed on your media?
    
    BillM

    Currently the finger is being pointed at the environmentalists who have
    consistently opposed strengthening the river defences on the grounds
    that they would destroy the natural beauty of the landscape.

    For example one of the major weak spots in the dyke system is near the
    city of Gorinchem. Here dyke maintenance was being held up by the
    environmentalists protecting a strand of trees by a court order. To
    effect the repairs the trees would have been damaged.

    On Wednesday morning the Mayor signed an emergency decree and the trees
    are now history whilst the bulldozers are desperately trying to shore up
    the dyke.

    Plans are now afoot to upgrade the entire river defences before the
    year 2000. I doubt if we will hear a peep out of the environmentalists
    who are now the lowest of the low.
    
    BTW the story of the little Dutch boy who put his finger in the dyke
    and saved his town was written by an American lady who had never
    visited the Netherlands or seen a sea dyke. The story is considered
    hysterically funny by the Dutch. Sea dykes often have 4 lane highways
    running along the top of them. 

    Jamie.

    	
    	Thanks for the local insight. Hope all dykes hold up. News says, 
    "Govt being criticized for beinfg lax on repairs, etc." Not a word
    about environmentalists' impeding repairs.  BillM