Conference hydra::dejavu

    To answer the most direct way I know how:  I wish I knew.
    
    If heaven is what many of the fundamentalist Christians say it is I
    think I'd rather miss the glory train.
    
    Actually, I had an NDE as a child.  And I think largely because of that
    experience, I'm really not very concerned about what its like on the
    other side.  I am curious though!
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    I always noticed that everone who had had a NDE never worried ever
    again about dying. I always realised that death was not optional and
    one day I got as near to death as you can and still make it back. Now I
    too no longer have any worries about death. 
    
    As to what happens to you and where you go. Well it would be rotten of
    me to spoil the surprise. 
    
    Jamie.

    Hi,
    
    	I believe that when we die, we remain around the earth for a period
    of about 3 days while we shed the components of our astral body which
    remain attached to our ... "soul" (only word I could think of). During
    this time we may travel to places on the planet at will, and will
    probably take a while to "acclimatise" to our situation.
    	When the remains of the astral body have "dissolved" we are usually
    contacted by a known relative or friend who has died previously to take
    us to the next plane of existence - the Sumerland, where we all exist
    to learn more about ourselves. There is order and society there, just
    as there is on earth, but of course there is non-physical existence.
    	The Sumerland is the "ideal" place we strive for, however some
    people after death will exist in a place which is formed from their own
    preconceptions of what they will see after death, based upon
    materialistic clingings to beliefs and possessions they had on earth...
    but all eventually come to the Sumerland, with help from others who
    actively encourage people.
    	The life cycle is one of birth, learning about a particular aspect
    of ourself - there is always a specific reason why we have chosen each
    life, and using this learning ability to clear our bad psychic
    elements, to become more whole. Then there is death, the existence in
    the Sumerland where we learn again, and finally we will choose when and 
    where to be re-incarnated with a new purpose and lesson to learn.
    	I am sure your sister has now found happiness amongst many other
    good people, and would not wish you to worry about her...
    
    I would heartily recommend a book entitled "What Dreams May Come" by
    Richard Matheson ... this is a novel derived from the author's
    extensive research into life-after-death and tells the story of a man
    who dies in the first two pages, and what happens to him thereafter.
    The book is rather heart-rending in places, but gives a good account of
    what we should expect.
    
    Incidentally the film "Ghost" was loosely based upon this book, as was
    an album by my favourite group, Fields of the Nephilim - hence the
    track Sumerland(What Dreams May Come) :-). The book is something of a
    classic now so you may be able to find it in your local library.
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    
    I like to believe that we go to what I call "heaven".  I believe that
    when a person dies they can still come back and view people (ie. family
    members, friends) and watch over them.  My mom recently died & I told
    my daughter that Gram would be watching over her all the time & if she
    ever wanted to talk to her, all she had to do was start talking and
    Gram would hear her.
    
    I believe that when we are in "heaven" we experience a feeling of total
    happiness all the time.  I believe that "heaven" is a wonderful place
    to exist & we can see our dead relatives & close friends.
    
    Some of the previous notes mention having NDE & no longer being afraid
    of death.  Well, I don't think I ever have had a NDE (although I have
    come close to death on at least 3 occasions), but the only fear I have
    of dying is leaving my family & friends behind.  When my mom was dying
    I did not want her to go for my own selfish reasons --- I would miss
    her dearly (which I do) and my daughter would grow up without a
    grandmother.  My mom was scared about dying & I told her my views on
    "Afterlife" & I think (I hope) I took away some of her fears.
    
    Well those are my beliefs --- anyone else?? . . . .
    
    Debby
    
    

    Hi, Bill.. just got back in here and I'm very sad about your loss.
    
    Re the topic - "It's the wonderers who do all the worrying"
                                                 James Kavanagh
    
    My personal belief is that if I do my job right, there will be 
    enough coherent life energy for the best of me to move on to the 
    next step.  I don't really believe in reincarnation on Earth.  
    The next step ?  I don't know, and I know I haven't the capacity
    to know.  Try explaining electricity to your cat.
    
    best. karl

    Bill -
    
    as for what I believe to be true, it changes everyday, but has a basic
    consistentcy (sp?).
    
    I've started being more truthful about what I feel and believe, so this 
    reply is the result of something that i've been going through
    spiritually. If someone laughs, so be it.
    
    I've tried to make sense of all the theories, but nobody really
    knows,until they die what happens. this was not said with bitterness,
    but with a certain resignation. I don't believe in the traditional view
    of heaven (wings and halos, be good good or you'll go to hell) but in a
    variation of "another place" or dimension where the "soul" (what I
    consider the part of you that talks to yourself, for lack of a better
    word at the moment) goes to continue learning. At this point you have
    certain choices as to where and what you will do until the next time
    that you decide to return to the earth plane as a human being. All
    life, or "entities" are here to learn. Learn what? I don't know at this
    point in my existence. I believe that there is a "spark" in each person
    that makes up what they are. After death, this spark still exists, and
    can contact other sparks, whether living or dead, and can help or guide
    another spark on it's journey.
    
    I don't know if this will help anyone else come to a decision about
    what they feel happens after you pass on, but it's what I believe at
    the moment. It certainly helped me decide what I believe!! 
    
    I don't want to get too wordy, so I will close now. perhaps
    when I learn more, I'll enter again.
    
    
    edh.

Hi Bill,

I hope you read this note with an open mind as this is exactly what I believe
from the depth of my heart. It is of course your perogative to believe this.
What I am telling you is based on the spiritual path I follow and believe in.

This path is based on the Teachings of the Masters who teach us the science of
the soul. That's right it is a science after all. The path of the soul is of
descent and subsequent ascent. Aeons ago, before the beginning of recorded
history, the souls of those who are now on earth descended from their original
home in the highest heavenly region which was the souls' "True Home". In this
purest part of the great Universe of universes, there is only Spriti, Light and
Love; it is the Abode of the Supreme Creator and also, as has been said our
True Home. Below this region lies vast and wonderful realm of the Universal
Mind, the lowest part of which is the so-called astral plane, just above the
physical universe. Souls were sent down to these lower regions to gain
experience and to evolve to a higher condition as a result of their experience. 

After leaving its true home, the soul descended by gradual stages into the
exquisitely beatiful regions of Universal Mind. In order to function and
communicate with other beings there, it was obliged to put on the coverings
of the mind and of the mental and causal body.
When it reached the astral region, the astral body was added; and when it came
down into the physical universe it was necessary to add a material body to
enable it to function in the material world.
 
In this manner soul became covered with veils of material which hampered it and 
decreased its awareness of its Source. In the lower regions, including the
physical universe (of which we are in now), there is a small amount of spirit,
but the force that rules the conditions of existence is the Mind. The powerful
force of mind isolates the soul, holds it captive, and prevents it from going
back to the spiritual regions to which it belongs, keeping it confined in the
regions of mind and matter. 

We are trapped in this gross and materialistic world of unending misery and
pain. To get out of this pain and misery, we have to control the mind and not
be controlled by the mind and find our way back to the Source (that is another 
chapter...I will try to address your point of After life). The Masters teach us
that we have lived life after life in different physical bodies. Both the soul
and the mind keep coming back to reap for what it has sown. (Jesus did say
that..for what you sow...so shall you reap). Throughout  these different lives
we have created karmic debts. In each life we perform good and bad deeds which
are termed are "karmas"..this is the law of cause and effect/ action and
reaction. Newton's law applies to all aspects of life..that is the scientific 
formula. In each life weperform good and bad acts, and these create good and 
bad results. 

So part of our life is predestined actually but while in the physical world,
the individual again creates new karma, some may be paid off during the same
life but any excess will be carried over and added to the individual's stored
account. When the soul leaves the material body (ie when the individual dies)
and passes into the astral world at the time of death, it is assigned to the
part of the astral world where it belongs as a result of its good and bad
karmas. If it has done good, it will spend the time it has earned in one of the
astral heavens, which are far more beautiful than anything to be found in the
physical world. But if it has done evil, the time may be spend in some
sub-astral region, where it may mediate on it wrong doings and suffer the
consequences of its evil acts. Before the soul leaves the astral world for a
new physical birth, it knows just where it will go, who its parents will be,
and what fate has in stroe of it in general. Until the baby is born, the soul
is still aware of the astral world and agrees that this should be its fate due
to the karmas it has committed in the previous life...at the time of birth, it
loses this awareness. 

When a soul is assigned to specific parents and a specific family, it is
because it has karmic debts with the members of that family, including the
brothers and sisters and other family relations. These must be paid off. As we
go through life the people we meet are people to whom we owe something or who
owe something to us. Our destiny is outlined before we enter our present body.
We do have some free will, and we can use it along with our destiny karmas. 

there's more to tell about this topic but I have given you what I know and what
the science teaches me. We meditate because we want to search to lord within.
We find meditation helps us because we attain peace of mind and more focus of
attention...actually we are trying to contact the Divine Source within. that's
where the True Home can be found. But until we do that, we keep coming back to
this world over and over again. 


Well there's just too much to say here...if you are interested, I can tell you
more about the science of the Soul.

regards

Mohan

    RE: -1
    
    Interesting..
    
    Personally, I have no major views at all about "life" after death, so
    I have an open mind here. I actually have no burning desire or need to
    have any particular belief on it either. However, with specific
    relation to .8...
    
    I'm curious as to what all those spare souls did before there were 5
    billion-odd bodies for them to live in. It's only a relatively few years
    since there were only a few hundred thousand bodies on our planet. How
    big can the world population grow before we run out of waiting souls,
    and what happens then?
    
    How does abortion or the untimely death of the host (pregnant mother)
    fit into that?
    
    Laurie.

    re .8 Thanks for keying in all of that... it's most interesting to
    learn how various people percieve this subject...also the other entries
    are most interesting too.
    
    keep it comin ;-)
    
    -Brian

    Re: .8 
    
    Thanks, I found .8 fascinating also.  Your points were well taken.
    
    Bill

    
                    My Thoughts on Death and Afterwards
    
    I believe that there is magic all around us, and that our standard five
    senses cannot perceive it.  I think one of the manifestations of this
    magic is the embodiment of soul in the physical form of a human body.  
    
    So here we all are, limited in this physical body for a time, to learn
    lessons about life and love, some profound, some not so profound.  When
    the time has come for the soul to depart, whether it be because of
    sickness, accident, murder, or just plain giving up, it leaves that
    physical body forever.  This is what the survivors call death because
    to those that remain behind, the body of that person is no longer
    "alive".  Note that without a soul inhabiting this body, that matter
    would never have been alive anyway.
    
    For the soul departing, I believe that God provides a wonderful
    transitional experience.  I believe that God dispatches "angels" to
    accompany the soul to the first of many new destinations.  "Time" as we
    know it becomes very different, and there is a warm, bright Light there
    which bathes everything in Love and Peace.  I believe that the departed
    soul has an opportunity to see a few last glimpses of the outcome of
    their death, and how it affects others.  At that point though, I
    believe that reviewing the days after death, and then a short time
    later, the entire physical life experience, is done with a stonger
    sense, stronger emotions, and no regrets.  
    
    I believe that in this physical form, we have little or no concept of
    what the infinite is, but once we permanently step out of the body of
    this body, we begin to understand the infinite, what God really is, and
    what it's like on the other side.
    
    Although comptemplating death from this side often leads to fear,
    confusion, uncertainty, I believe that once we are through it, it is no
    more painful or frightening than the initial birth experience in this
    world.  
    
    I believe that the God who put it all this together, in the divine
    scheme of things is far more loving and gracious than most of those 
    profess to be close to God can even conceive.  And I believe in God's
    infinite wisdom, every thing is unfolding according to a Plan.  We just
    don't know it all - yet...
    
    One thing is for sure, it's very different after death, than before
    it...
    
    
    Bill

    
    I believe in many things expressed here and combinations therof. 
    First of all I believe in reincarnation.  And I also believe that 
    there are lessons that we each have to learn and we have to do it over
    till we get it right(in other words, you gotta come back till you learn
    all that you have to learn HERE).  After we die we are met by other
    souls who comfort us and teach us about the next plane where we learn
    how to comfort and watch over our loved ones and help the new arrivals
    (recently departed).  When these lessons are learned we proceed to the
    next level of exsistance to learn more until we reach the highest
    level.  Where I believe we become one with the "super consience" or the
    accumulation of all those who have gone before and learned the lessons
    before us.  I believe that this "super consience" is what we (or at
    least what *I*) concider as God.  That is where I want to be
    eventually.  At one with God.  
    
    Someone else mentioned that we often are reincarnated with the same
    souls but not necessarly in the same order(in other words I might 
    the father in one life and the daughter in another) I believe this too.
    In fact I believe that I am not going to come back again(I discussed
    this with my mother long ago, my soul is very old I believe).  Which
    may explain why I have learned so manny HARD lessons about life in the
    28 years I have been here this time.  
    
    Well, at any rate this is what *I* believe.  Anybody else??
                                                               

    I don't know if this will help, I don't even know the original author
    as I have seen it quoted in two novels. But here it is.
    
    Death is nothing at all. It does not count. I have only slipped away
    into the next room. Nothing has happened.

    Everything remains exactly as it was. I am I, and you are you, and the
    old life that we lived so fondly together is untouched, unchanged.
    Whatever we were to each other, that we are still. Call me by the old
    familiar name. Speak of me in the easy way which you always used. Put
    no difference into your tone. Wear no forced air of solemnity or
    sorrow. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes that we enjoyed
    together. Play, smile, think of me, pray for me. Let my name be ever
    the household word that it always was. Let it be spoken without effort,
    without the ghost of a shadow upon it. Life means all that it ever
    meant. It is the same as it ever was. There is absolute and unbroken
    continuity. What is death but a negligible accident? Why should I be
    out of mind because I am out of sight? I am but waiting for you, for an
    interval, somewhere very near, just round the corner. All is well.
    
    Jamie.
                                                                      

        
    In response to Note .14, I'd like to contribute this poetic passage
    from one of my favorite New Age books.  Every time I read it or think
    of it I just go, "Wow!"
    
    Hope DEJAVU readers enjoy this.  (I only hope to be able to write this
    meaningfully and well, one of these days.)
    
    "Consciousness will not be obliterated, for consciousness _is_ the
    universe.  The part of me I know the least, will go on.  These images
    of a winter's night will not be kept in the holograph's heart - the
    rain on the beggars along storefront walls, the feeling of unexplored
    depths, the now-acrid, now sweet obscurity in me, that even my attempt
    to locate and feel radiates as petals of deeper, more devious
    obscurities - a memory of childhood, a fragment of a tune I can't
    place, the cold that wants warm, the tug toward home, all together, all
    making me up at this moment - that will be dashed on rocks harsher than
    either atoms and stars, because atoms and stars are abstractions that
    transform nothing.
    
    "My hope is their hope - that this will all be made into a robe of the
    finest light.  (Don't be fooled into assuming they have given up hope
    or that the rest of us have been spared their fate.)
    
    "I don't need angels or stories through eternity, and I don't expect the
    timeless void of transcendence or a merger with a superconsciousness. 
    I want the obscurity that nothing will touch in the rain."
    
    
    (p. 182, "The Homeless", an essay in "Waiting for the Martian Express"
     by Richard Grossinger, 1989, published by North Atlantic Books) 
    
    
    
    
    Bill
    

    Re: .14
    
    Thanks for that passage!  It is comforting to think that there are
    loved ones on the other side, who will wait the interval of time till
    we join them.
    
    
    Bill

    
    Hi Jamie,
    
    I really liked what you wrote!!  
    
    Thanks 
    shannon

    After our son died two years ago I spent a good deal of energy trying
    to learn as much as I could about what had happened to him. Like any
    parent I wanted to be sure he was okay.
    
    We were very fortunate and had a meeting with George Anderson (there's
    a note about him earlier). This was one of the most incredible
    experiences either I or my wife ever had. We taped it, should anyone
    want to share it.
    
    George has the gift of being able to communicate with folks who have
    passed over, and he talked to several of our family that night,
    including our son. (This sounds strange to some, but I am convinced
    this is true without a doubt). I never did answer my question about
    what happened after Ben died, but I feel very much at peace now about
    where he is - I know he's doing just great.
    
    Pieces that we did learn from this experience:
    
    	- we continue to live with our families in the next stage. Ben
    	  is being cared for by his two great-grandmothers, and is
    	  surrounded by other family.
    	- there are other animals, or animal spirits, in the next stage
    	- we continue learning and growing
    	- in some way we retain some aspect of our physical being
    	- we can be in contact with this world, or be aware of it (e.g.
    	  Ben knew things about our house and our family that had
    	  happened since he died, and he told us he is with us when we're
    	  in need of his being there).
    	- the next stage is one  of love and peace
    
    I look forward to moving into the next stage, when my time comes. It
    will be great to be re-connected with him and the others who have and
    will be moving on from this world between now and then. We have said
    good-bye for a while, but we are still in each others hearts and minds,
    so we are still a part of each other. Until that day we've all got a
    lot of living to do, and a lot of enjoying what we are blessed with
    here and now.
    
    Peace,
    
    Tim
    

    re: 18 (Tim)
    
    	This is a really personal question and I'll understand if you
    don't reply. Are you religious? And if "yes" then what religion, 
    if you don't mind me asking? The reason why I ask is, did you or 
    your wife get the impression what you are currently doing, religious
    wise, is the correct path. Or was the impression that it really 
    doesn't matter... people go onto the next stage/phase/whatever 
    naturally without any religious orientation.
    
    Michelle_becoming_curious.

Re: Last 2...

	Since our thought forms pre-form our existence in the afterlife, and
	since in the Sumerland we model what we want to with our thought, our
	particular religious beliefs are not *that* important, there will be
	whatever particular model we adhere to there for us - this is why in
	NDEs from people of different cultures people see GOD-forms of the 
	"Christian style", Vishnu type GOD-forms, Bhudda (sp?) ... or
	whatever form we expect our GODhead to take ... but I believe that the
	"super-concious" which is presented to us is *the same*, only packaged
	the way we expect to see it!

	All this is, of course, IMHO.

								- JIM CAD*

    re: .20 (Jim)
    
          I would agree.
    
    Frederick
    

    Re: .18
    
    Wow!
    
    Nice Note!  Thanks!
    
    
    Bill                          :-)
    

    re: .19 (Michelle)
    
    Are we religious? Well, we attend an Episcopalian church, absolutely
    believe in a Higher Power, believe in the power of prayer and
    community, but think that man's interpretation of God through his
    religions is flawed (I likethe earlier analogy of explaining
    electricity to cats).
    
    We believe that we were brought to the house we now live in, and have
    lived in for 8 years, as a place to be while we went through Ben's
    illness. I looked for a church/community, and we found on literally in
    our back yard. The community at that church just loved and cared for us
    all during the six years Ben was off and on being treated, and really
    helped us as we dealt with his death. They are such a wonderful and
    loving family - just what we imagine God wants us to be for each other.
    
    We struggle sometimes with how our beliefs jibe with those of the
    church. But we have experienced such powerful love during the past few
    years that we know God absolutely loves us, and we see that none (or
    few) of us will ever really understand his/her plan, and that formal
    religion gives us a mechanism to try to understand - and more
    importantly to love and care for each other.
    
    BTW, our minister, who was there for us in so many ways over the past
    years was killed, along with his wife, last month. It is somehow ironic
    that we had long talks about where Ben might be and our struggles with
    his death, and now he has also passed over. It was as if he were being
    prepared. As with Ben I miss Fr. Jack (Lawton) so much, he was a very
    warm and alive man (and his wife was a wonderful person in her own
    right), but they are both still alive and doing great in the next stage
    - and will be there to greet us when we pass over!
    
    Glad to clarify this if needed. I have been learning a lot from reading
    these notes, as well as reading whatever I can find.
    
    /tim
    

    re: .19 etc.
    
    I may not have made this clear, but I don't think that God/the Higher
    Power cares whether we belong to a formal religion or not, or even if
    we believe in Him/Her. We can't possible understand. BUT what a "good"
    spiritual community can give us is a place to learn, to grow, to care
    for each other, and to love and be loved. And when we do those things
    we are on the right path.
    
    On the journey,
    
    Tim
    

    re -.1 and .18 etc
    
    Thanks for sharing Tim...one comment concerning churches and religions:
    
    Even though a formalised structure is optional and dispensible, I
    believe it is an important lesson for us to be able to accept another
    human being as a messenger... accepting the limitations of an imperfect
    vessel but being attuned to the truth and learning they may activate
    within us...The song...not the singer ;-)
    
    -Brian

	Re: .14

	Thanks for entering that, Jamie, it touched something very
	deep inside me.  If you happen to remember either of the novels
	you found it in, I'd appreciate knowing, either through a reply
	here or directly.  Thanks.

                                           Jean

    re: .14
    
    Yes, thank you Jamie.  I've read that somewhere too, but I can't
    remember where now.
    
    Mary

    As far as I remember it was quoted in "September" by Rosemund Pilcher.
    I also saw it quoted in some other book but I cannot find who the
    original author was.

    Jamie.

    
    This is my hope:  that it will be like coming home.
    
    That I'll see old friends and familiar places, and that I'll be me
    in my entirety; none of this rationing out of myself over time.
    All the colorful pieces of myself that I have discovered along the way
    will now fall neatly into place; into one place at one time.
    
    Sometimes when I see a beautiful sight or feel a wonderful joy
    there is a pain that tugs at my heart because I know this will
    not last, and yet it dawns on me that this beauty and this wonder
    that is touching me has touched me before.  I can only hope that it is
    the way I am at this moment why I cannot grasp it fully without
    knowing the pain of it slipping away.  It's like there is a song in
    my heart I can barely voice for want of not yet knowing all the words,
    yet the song remains, gently leading me on through all the noise, 
    becoming clearer and sweeter and not so unfamiliar as I go.
    
     
    -mark
    
    

    And if you happen to like 6 alarm chili?

    Actually I don't mind dying, but it leaves you so stiff the next morning.

    Jamie.

    Unfortunately the reduction in the immune system caused by AIDS often
    permits all sorts of little nasty organisms to set up shop in the brain
    during the final stages of the disease. Two of my friends went mad at
    the end and were raving before they died. Neither foresaw hell but they
    were no longer much connected with this world.

    I would therefore give little weight to his experience when considering
    what awaits us when we die.

    Jamie.

Re .33 (Richard):

    >    To add a bit, and i never note here [you can thank your favorite
    >pagan household god/goddess/icon for that]. 

You don't have to be a Pagan to note here, Richard.

    >    About a year ago an aquaintance of mine died. I didn't know him
    >well, only through his housemates; all were new age pagan types and
    >he was a wiccan.  ... had to be sedated in his last days. He kept crying
    >out that he was going to rot and burn in eternal hell for his sins.

It would be interesting to hear from someone else who was present just what
he said, and, if possible, why.

    >    Now before the bleedin heart liberals come running out of the
    >woodwork saying "tsk tsk, naughty naughty christains!"..

"Bleedin heart liberals" is a perjorative term.  I say that as one who is by
no means politically liberal.  

    > ........................ My aquaintance came from a atheist/
    >agnostic family, so was not browbeaten by those [to quote card
    >carrying aclu bleedin hearts] by those nasty christians. He was
    >supposedly always a pagan and regulary preached to me about my
    >ignorance in believing in a christian god.

A nit:  I always refer to my faith as Christiasn (capital C) and whom I believe
to be the Creator, I also capitalize.  Another nit:  I doubt there's an
ACLU Bleedin Heart card; in relating any event, it helps ones case to remain as
objective as possible.

    >    Well the housemate said his friends were gonna gather around and
    >try to contact him thru a medium, ouija etc and i just said, leave me
    >out when you do; i don't wanna be within 10000 miles of that kind of
    >stuff.......but curiously! in his last days he kept talking about 
    >burning in hell forever.

Well, though you weouldn't want to be "within 10000 miles" of a Ouija event,
wouldn't you be curious as to what they might have "heard"?  [aside: I have
serious doubts about the reliability of Ouija messages for reasons I've
stated elsewhere in this conference; however, that's a different issue.]

    >    i wonder how many in here might be surprised by where they find
    >themselves; m-self i don't believe in any of the new age stuff often
    >discussed in here as gospel, but this is murca' and if it floats your
    >boat, well!

One of the toughest lessons any of us can learn is to beware pigeonholong others
(or ourselves, for that matter).  Some people here are Pagans; others are 
agnostic; still others are Christian; still others are Hindus; some are Jewish;
some are atheistic.  The point is that there's a multiplicity of beliefs in
this Conference, and not just about religions.

Although I don't usually point this out, the term "New Age," is an umbrella
under which everything from Assyro-Babylonian astrology to Kirlian photography
are lumped; it has less concrete meaning than "Hi-Fi" did in the 1950s.  Anyone
viewing the so-called New Age phenomenon as a monolith is confusing marketing
for philosophies.

Putting aside all of that, and <momentarily> donning my Moderator's hat, I'd say
it's easier to enter into fruitful discussion by minimizing antagonism.  

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Re.36
    
    Hm...
    
    .33 must have been deleted or something.
    
    Looked interesting though.  Who was Richard?
    
    Cindy