Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    Oh good heavens!
         
    Cindy

    I think I hear my mother calling me. :-)

    I would personally welcome a comprehensive project and, as a
    taxpayer, would not object to having some of my $$$ go towards
    funding.  The figure I have seen in here is $50M, or roughly
    seven percent the cost of one B2 bomber.
    
    Joel
    

    (re: 1515.100)
    
    Still nothing of substance, though you have managed to add
    stuff like "stupid and well-intentioned", "dweebs", "Just-Say-No
    Hotline" tattoos, "abject contempt for stool pigeons and
    busybodies" and etc.  
    
    Very easy to forget this one, Mary, as you have done nothing
    more than make vague and unsupported scurrilous charges...
    
    Joel
    

    IMHO

    I suspect that DEC, like any large corporation, whether or not they are
    defense related, is watched by the intelligence agencies.  This
    probably includes planted agents.  My guess is that these are not
    agents like you probably think of them -- they are probably almost
    completely untrained and have never had anything but the briefest
    contact with whichever organization they work for.

    I would envision someone analagous to a news organization "stringer".
    I.e., someone who is paid a small fee to report anything interesting
    that they happen to come across during their normal work for DEC.

    It is unlikely that any would happen to read this notes file, or if
    they did that they would find much to report on (perhaps this
    discussion).  If there is a large defense/intelligence project in
    psychic "warfare" I strenuously doubt that the ordinary agents in
    the field -- even higher level ones than I think are likely to be
    inside DEC -- would have any real knowledge about it.

    Furthermore, if there is such a project, there is nothing much in this
    file to interest them.  There is nothing here which is not in hundreds
    of more public forums.  Of course, there is some original thinking
    going on here, a great sense of community, and many opportunities for
    future growth, but only the first would be of any interest, and it is
    no more original than the thinking to be found in the hundreds of other
    places.

    Now the question is, is there such a "psychic warfare project."  I
    think that the answer is almost certainly a qualified no.  There is
    good reason to believe that people in various government agencies --
    both defense and intelligence, as well as others -- have, at various
    times, launched projects concerning "applied psychic phenomenon" --
    what I like to call, broadly speaking, para-engineering.

    Some of these projects have been of appreciable size relative to the
    tiny field of parapsychology (though not relative to virtually any
    other field of science you can think of).  Most have not been.  There
    is no real evidence to suggest that these are not independent
    initiatives, and a fair amount of circumstantial evidence which
    suggests that they are.  In other words, it really does look like
    there is no single, large-scale project underway in the US to develop
    psychic weapons or psychic survelance technology.  What there appears
    to be instead is an occasional individual with some combination of
    belief, will and resources to, at least for a time, get a small
    project underway.

    Most of these individual projects which have come to light, one way or
    another, have been naive -- ignorant of the results of
    parapsychological research, and determined to repeat error which were
    discovered 50 years ago.

    Of course, all this could be an amazingly clever cover for a real
    project ... but I doubt it.  Those of us who cannot rely on just
    "knowing" things, have to say that the only substance behind the
    frequent claims of large CIA/DOD/etc projects seems to point more
    convincingly to many independent uncoordinated (and generally
    incompetent) projects.

    $50,000,000?  Seems very high to me, but lets just say its true.  This
    level of spending over, say, a 20 year period would be pocket change
    to the agencies we are talking about.  If their funding is no higher
    than that, then we could say without question that they do not take
    this very seriously.  With that kind of budget, they would have better
    things to spend their money on than monitoring groups like DEJAVU.

					Topher

    (P.S. Now, if I were an agent, "stringer agent" or otherwise, would I
    have written that note?  Of course, I was discounting the possibility
    so that would be in keeping with my supposed disinformation
    responsibility.  On the other hand, I have just drawn attention to
    myself in a way that is going to make anyone who suspects a
    disinformation campaign suspect me -- which would be weakening my
    cover.  Ah! ... But since I have so obviously drawn attention to myself
    as a possible disinformation agent that no one would believe that
    a real disinformation agent would have so acted, so my cover would be
    safe.  And I could even confuse things more by writing a postscript
    like this one to confuse the issue even more and further divert
    attention :-))

    Topher,
    
    A few more from you like that postscript and we'll find a
    government job for you - as the VP's speechwriter!  ;^)
    
    Joel
    

    I think the biggest fears with the government running research is that
    the people and results will be used for oppression, rather than
    enlightenment.  The government has a history of wanting military
    applications to their research, and most of the people they would use
    for testing are opposed to military approaches.
    
    Beth

Re the thought of government psychic projects:

Extending this past "classic" parapsychology [Topher: language is imprecise;
symbols can be restrictive, and "parapsychology" might not mean to everybody
a domain that might include Voudoun ceremonies, Chieromancy, or Radiasthesia,
I'm extending thisa to include everrything that might qualify as "paranormal],
such studies could provide various arms of the Federal government with knowledge,
resulting in additional capabilities.  Such input could be used, if it worked,
defensively or even offensively.

Thus, there's some motivation to look at even the most dubious claims, as long 
as they're not patently absurd.  Even if they seem almost so:

For example: suppose someone handed you an old brass oil lamp.  further suppose
that person said, "This nis the genuine lamp of Alladin.  Just rub it and a
genie will appear and grant you three wishes.

Such a claim would be so farfetched to elicit a chuckle.  But, with the lamp
in your hands, would you dismiss it _totally_ out of hand without at least
giving the lamp a rub?   [My opinion is if you dod so, you'd have a mind sealed
shut and would beb the least likely candidate to do any serious research in 
anything.  In fact, come to think of it, such a scenario would make a good
spot test for research candidates.]

However, given the potential return, an intelligence and/or defense organization
would be remiss if its members didn't investigate such things at least somewhat.

The thing to keep in mind, though, is that "investigate" requires both resources
and communications.  The first is relatively easy (though the level of effort
might be quite low: if a session with Madam Zhazha, the Fortuneteller, is $20
per half hour, the cost of investigating that branch of futuretelling might
stay relatively low).  The second is morew difficult, considering the hier-
archies that security clearance levels impose.  Thus, unlike more "open"
research, there might be a lot of duplication.

As to intensive spying on things like DEJAVU notes, it's possible, but unlikely
on the basis of return on investmant.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

For what it's worth:

A former-DEC employee that I dated briefly had a friend who also worked for
DEC and his friend's sole job was to monitor all of the notesfiles and make
reports of what was being discussed, especially if it was deemed "sensitive"
material either for DEC or for the government.  

Hopefully this department got "the package" a long time ago.....  

Linda

    I've got the impression that when Mary Stanley and Talligai have
    mentioned in the past that we are being observed, they meant by other
    cultures out in the solar system, not necessarily by our own govt.
    
    If that is so maybe they are just watching humankind in general and not
    this specific notes file.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Karin

    Well I will be truthful and admit that I love feeding a good going
    paranoia, especially one like this. I mean our ramblings must provide
    the current Soviet government with a blessed distraction, what with
    them having nothing better to do with themselves at the moment.

    However my attention is drawn to the Dec European telephone directory,
    there within the first few pages is a map of Easynet and on it I find
    that it requires at least two satellite links to connect me to this
    notefile.

    Both of these links can easily be monitored and recorded, thus as I
    read this file anyone with the correct equipment can see what I read.

    BTW with the Soviet Union evaporating as we watch, who is going to be
    nominated as the next bogey man?

    Jamie.

    re: last (who's going to be the next bogeyman)
    
    Gee Jamie,
    
    There are so many to choose from.  Maybe some mideast countries could 
    regroup.  And, of course there's always China.  Or, maybe for a change,
    we could start on some interplanetary dynamics.
    
    Mary ;-)
    
    BTW, in an earlier response someone wrote something about how if the
    government wanted to study psychic phenomena, why would they do it by
    monitoring these notes...they would just get a bunch of psychics and
    study them.  I'm curious about one thing (seriously ;-)  How would you
    go about doing that?  Advertise in the papers?  I can see it now...
    
    "Help Wanted for government research project.  Clairvoyants,
    telepaths, please apply.  Send resume to...."

    Well they could probably pick up some by hanging around healthfood
    shops they seem to go there a lot.

    Jamie.

    re: .12
    
    Well, they kind of do advertise, but not specifically for psychics. 
    Many medical or other institutes have government grants to study
    various things.  If looking for a person with a skill, what is done is
    a broad test to find people with the skill, then ask them to progress
    to other tests.  Some of the broad base tests are advertised, though
    not likely in a regular newspaper or magazine.  These tests usually
    offer money for time, and the desperate are usually the ones who
    respond.
    
    Beth

    Well, ... it's conceivable that someone with wild talent might 
    unconsciously use it to keep him/her self from desperate times.
    The method of searching for people may ... by itself... eliminate
    those who are being sought out from the pool of applicants.
    	..... just a thought.... 
    
    The net displays wild talent ... even if the person him/her self
    is unaware... the data is there to be examined.

RE .12 (Mary)

>    "Help Wanted for government research project.  Clairvoyants,
>    telepaths, please apply.  Send resume to...."

May I suggest the following text?

"Help wanted for government research project. Clairvoyants, telepaths,
 please apply. I you know the right address NOW, you're qualified. Send
 your business card to that address."

Arie

Re .16 (Arie):

You missed the point.  Those who already know who's looking and are interested
don't need an ad.  That's why nobody runs any. ;-)

Steve Kallis, Jr.

Shoot!

I got the address yesterday evening, and now you say there are no vacancies
anymore!?!?

Arie

    They saw you coming!

    Jamie.

    I knew you were going to say that. :-)