Conference hydra::dejavu

Re .0 (Beth):

For some, a "teacher" is a sanity check, not a source of knowledge.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    When the time and place are right, you and your teacher will "find"
    each other.
    
    		Jimbert

Finding the right teacher can be difficult.  After many years of searching I've
finally discovered my teacher.  That teacher is myself.  Others can be helpful
but the best teacher for you is yourself.

		Dave

    >the best teacher for you is yourself
    
    I don't seem to be doing a very good job.  And as others said, the
    teacher is a sanity check.  But, there's not much of that around me
    (my husband is supportive, but claims to be non-believing).  So I have
    strong doubt/fear which prevents further development.  I can't seem to
    find the first step to remove the doubt/fear.  That's were a teacher
    would really be helpful (and one who won't become a disappointment).
    
    ever confused,
    Beth
    
    (and somewhen in a past life, I think I chose to make this life
    confused - arggggh)

    I could (and probably will,) reiterate what was said in the other
    replies. My take is that if you quickly out grow your teachers, then
    you should be able to use that knowledge that you have gained to find
    other resources and new teachers. Ask your teachers if they know of
    other more knowledgeable individuals or groups that can help you to
    grow further. If they won't help, then they are on a control trip. If
    they can't help or really don't know, then they aren't the best. They
    should be able to at least point you towards their teachers.
    
    As Mary said, the best teacher is yourself. As I find myself more and
    more involved with some of the things discussed in here, I find my own
    intuition of what  is right or wrong for me, becomes increasingly
    developed and correct. Of course, I have doubts and fears. We all do.
    Alos, my self esteem is not the highest in the world, but I am working
    on it and as I do, I find more oppurtunities to express myself open up.
    I learn from these oppurtunities and grow. You have to also. I'm glad
    you have support from home. That is a big thing. Even if he describes
    himself as an "unbeliever", he must have the tiniest bit of unsuredness
    in mind. Some little part that says "Well, maybe it is true". If not,
    then he might not support you and might even try to stop you studies.
    Good for him and for you. I pray you find what your looking for.
    
    Love and Light,
    
    PJ

re:         <<< Note 1515.4 by DSSDEV::GRIFFIN "Throw the gnome at it" >>>

>                                               That's were a teacher
>    would really be helpful (and one who won't become a disappointment).

Finding one that's not a disappointment is quite difficult.

		Dave_who's_not_Mary_but_has_lunch_with_her_everyday :-)

        Anything or anyone that one learns from is a teacher, no matter
    the source.  If one is becoming more of who one is, then one is 
    learning.
    
        This game can be played in many, many ways.  As long as you
    are in this physical, illusionary reality, and you choose to use
    this playground as a device to learn from, then you can and will
    find teachers in it.  However, I find it helpful to remember (but
    first recognizing the illusion for what it is and secondly by 
    understanding that everything can be found in the UN-conscious 
    mind) that if there is something you wish to discover or experience,
    that it can be accomplished, *consciously* by exploring that
    very same unconscious mind.  This may not happen instantly (which
    is probably why so many people deny its power) and may require
    practice (lots and lots of things require lots and lots of practive)
    but it *is* entirely doable.
         Within your unconscious mind are all of the greatest teachers
    that have ever existed or can ever exist.  IT is within your power
    to access them, as much of them as you want, and learn from them 
    whatever it is you wish to learn.  
         Willingness...intention and commitment.
    
    Frederick
    

  From my reading of books about sufis, my understanding is that if you
  know how to find a teacher, then you know and you will find one, and
  if you don't, then you won't. It makes me think of the following
  analogy:

  	How can I find a blue dress?

  If you know what "blue" is, and what a dress is, then you will have no
  trouble recognizing one when you encounter it. But if, for example,
  you don't know what "blue" is, then no amount of describing it is
  going to help you find a blue dress. It will be necessary for someone
  who knows to lead you to a blue dress, and say "here, this is a blue
  dress".

  The next question is then: 

  OK, since I probably don't know how to recognize a Teacher, what
  should I do?

  I don't know what the answer to that is. Maybe you should teach people
  what blue dresses are.

    Doubts and fears are things that must be confronted alone.... sooner
    or later.
    
    You're just stalling.
    
    Mary (who-isn't-Dave-but-has-sex-with-him-every-day):-)

    Sometimes merely looking for someone who knows "more" than you
    isn't the answer.  It isn't what a person knows, it's how they've
    applied it to themselves, to others, to life.  If someone knows
    as much about a topic as you, but has applied it in a totally 
    different manner, you both stand to learn a tremendous amount
    from each other.  That amount is depth.  And depth is what in
    the end gives you the courage to jump into the unknown.  
    
    Look at your friends, your husband, your pets if you have any,
    your environment, yourself.  Everything teaches, as long as you 
    are open to listen.    
    
    In the end, no one can help you make that leap but you.  No
    one can say when you are ready but you.  And if you are afraid to
    go now, that says you are not ready, and that is fine.  Understand
    that waiting is not a limitation, but an opportunity.
    
    Good luck in your quest,
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    >You're just stalling.
    
    Yes and no.  Some of my internal investigations seem to indicate that I
    placed a block for a reason, and certain other conditions have to be
    taken care of first.  But I can't seem to figure out what the other
    conditions are (partly because of the block), and haven't placed enough 
    effort into finding them either (which IS the stalling part).  I have
    done readings with Tarot and runes for myself, as well as having others
    do readings for me, and all the ever comes up is that much information
    is to remain a mystery until "it is time to know" (this usually occurs
    during the crisis, not before, and then the knowledge is somehow lost
    again).
    
    Thanks,
    Beth

    But thats true, Beth... everything happens in it's own good time and
    some things happen when you want them to.

Hi, Beth,

	"When the student is ready, the Master will appear...".

	I think it might be helpful for you to sit down and figure out what
you are really looking for  - what do you really mean by a teacher.... Then
once you have figured that part out, put the thought out and ask the Universe
to please help you find the correct person/persons/things that will bring
into your life a teacher that will be for your highest and best.  You'll
be amazed at how this will work out  (it's always worked for myself and for
everyone I know that has done something like the above)....

Linda

    re: .0,
    	Hi Beth,
    
    	Always seemed like an important question to me, too.  I'm glad you
    	fought the urge to delete it.   
    
    	i had three initial thoughts (someone once pointed out to me
    	that teaching parables tend to have three students in them).  :-)
    
    	1.  The emerging Self as teacher / learning from everything
    	I'm initially drawn strongly to Mike's interesting analogy about Blue 
    	Dresses, and to Mary's comment about facing fears.  
    
    	This is to me nearly the same idea as 'when the student is ready,
    	the teacher will appear,' but taken to an extreme, away from the
    	dstinct teacher idea, more toward the Self as teacher.   I think
    	this develops in anyone who thinks for themself to some extent.
    
    	While I agree that (teachers) do seem to appear when and if we are
    	ready to learn, I tend to think that these have the ring of 'words to 
    	those that already know the answer.'
    
    	2.  Role Models
    	I think of this as very important in human learning, on a number
    	of levels, from physical skills to much more ethereal or subtle
    	things.   Selecting a role model is for me a very *intuitive*
    	process, I don't have any conscious guidelines.  People who appear
    	to possess large amounts of some quality I consider missing in myself.
    	But when I think back, it was more a feeling that helped me select
    	them, not something I was specifically looking for that I knew was
    	missing.
    
    	3.  Schools
    	This is even tougher than selecting a teacher.  For the past few
    	years, I've found myself somwehat avoiding formal groups who gather 
    	for learning, because I found that social factors and interpersonal 
    	expectations and feedback loops seem to get in the way of learning.  
    	Those things can provide a stimulus for growth, to some extent, though.
    	
    								todd

    		This topic has emerged at the right time for me because I
    am confused on this. I am confused on what way to go. My holistic
    doctor that I see is also associated with a real good massage school
    that teaches polarity, Chinese medicine, reflexology in combination
    with massage. I started to see this guy for nutrition and now I am
    moving into herbs and have even moved into study of the Carlos Castaneda
    books. I have thought about going into the massage school.
    	Last week he told me that he thinks that I would be an ideal
    candidate for the school because of my knowledge of Recovery, herbs,
    mind-body connection, etc. This is all fine and well but I also go to
    this place in Temple NH called the Essense Center and every Saturday I
    do this Essence Healing work that involves chanting, meditation,
    sharing and intense breath work. So I have a teacher there. Also, I
    have been interested in possibly studying under this Appache Indian.
    It seems like I have too many teachers!
    
    Sam
    

    
1515.15 by BCSE::GENTILE:
    
>   I am confused on what way to go.
    
    :^)
    Reminds one of Mad Hatter & Alice
    A  : Which way shall I go ?
    MH : That depends on where you want to go..
    A  : I don't know where..
    MH : Then it doesn't matter which way you go.
    
>    It seems like I have too many teachers!
    Seems ok.. is there anyone that knows it all ? Maybe you
    need to prune your areas of learning.. that way you wouldn't
    face the problem of too many teachers.
    
    

I've found that my situation is my best teacher but sometimes look for
something more in terms of one other human being (haven't found that
yet but I'm not feeling a real need to yet).

I've also found it best for me to go deeply into one thing rather than
doing a little bit of a lot of different things...

john

    Hi Sam (.15),
    
    There are so many different types of healing/energy/bodywork out there
    that it is easy to become confused in which way to go.  I've been
    studying polarity for the last year but have looked into other types of
    bodywork (Reiki, reflexology etc.).  What has been helpful for me is to
    attend introductory type classes to get a real sense of what the work
    is about, before investing in a full (certified) course.  I've also
    found that when practicing on someone, I tend to incorporate various
    methods using my intuition to apply whatever method is 'needed' by that
    particular person.  
    
    Interface (who are now located in Cambridge) offers a variety of
    workshops that are inexpensive and would allow you to sample different
    therapies without enrolling in a fullterm massage school.  FWIW.
    
    Ro
    

    Hi Beth,
    
    I too am glad you did not delete your note as it presents to me the
    opportunity to learn from the perspectives of those who have replied.
    Nice..
    
    Something that I apply to learning on occasions is to *stop* searching
    from time to time as the very things I am looking for may be trying to
    catch up to me, but I may be moving too fast. ;-)
    
    Also, someone can teach you how to make fine wine, but there comes the
    time when you need to leave the wine that you have made, to mature in
    the cask. 
    
    You may even view your husband and your old teachers to be teaching
    you something at present.
    
    Thanks for sharing...
    
    Brian

    re: .21, Brian,
    
>    from time to time as the very things I am looking for may be trying to
>    catch up to me, but I may be moving too fast. ;-)
    
    Wow.  Ain't that the truth !
    
    								todd

    From all the responses (and thanks for them), I feel that perhaps it is
    time to start "talking" about my experiences in the note file.  I
    suppose I can use this note as my personal questing place ;-)
    
    At the moment, the experience(s) I would like to tell about involve
    "contact" with the dead.  Uh, maybe I should remind folks that I'm a
    born empath (with recall of an incident or two as far back as 1st
    grade).
    
    Some family history - My father's parents were care takers of a
    Catholic cemetary in West Virginia.  Grandma's family took care of it
    before them.
    
    Oft times at night, eyes closed, I "see" this crowd of spirits, dead
    ones.  They seem to be clamoring for my attention.  It is not
    frightening, and I can tell them to "go away".  I suppose if I were to
    be the medium at a seance, it would be a success.
    
    Three of my grandparents have died.  The first one, the grandmother in
    West Virginia, was in a dream shortly after - it was frightening, as
    though she had been used by something evil, but she pointed me to
    relatives to use as models - my mother, an uncle, and an aunt.  When
    the next one died, my mothers father, I was "with" him, in spirit, when
    he died, and, at the funeral I could sense him, and his will to remain
    alive, until the priests finished the ceremony and closed the casket.
    When the other grandfather died, it was happy.  He was over 90, and was
    looking forward to being reunited with his wife.  Three days after the
    funeral, he visited me - I inherited something from him, associated
    with this contact with the dead.
    
    A month after the "inheritance", I went for a walk with my husband
    through a nearby cemetary (I find most cemetaries pleasant and
    interesting - the dates and names).  The place was full of anxiety, 
    and came clamoring to me for "help", all but one within it - this one 
    was a domineering, almost malignant personality, which the other spirits 
    in the cemetary feared.  By accepting to aid them, and tossing my will
    around, the place is quiet again.  But in the process of quieting the
    place (it took several trips with a few sensitive friends to figure out
    most of the pieces), we learned the following: the ground was
    previously sacred Indian ground, some used for burial, others for
    medicine men to gather and do whatever it is they do.  One part of the
    cemetary goes beyond the Indian usage, and is a grove or gateway to
    other things/times.  But it is losing power because it is the lowest
    part of the cemetary, and is being used as the dump for grass cuttings
    and leftover dirt and stones.  There are several power points within
    the cemetary, polarized in different ways - one is vary male, another
    female.  One place is full of children, another is a combination of
    Masons and nuns.  We haven't found the centers of all the points,
    because only the "chosen" can truly find it (the male area, we kept
    trying to find the center, and one day, we walked with another friend,
    and were just walking, and he suddenly broke away, and went right to
    the center - "it was just interesting").  When all the power points are
    mapped, several different patterns can be seen - pentagram, star of
    david, tree of life.  The dark entity is at one of these power points.
    Which leads to another interesting thing about this cemetary.  The dark
    entity is within the city tomb.  The tomb is set into a hillside, so
    only the wall with the doors is really visible.  The pavement in front
    of the doors was laid out in an arc.  Within a circle, that continues
    from the arc, can be seen patterns.  Some of us suspect that the
    patterns match the larger one defined by the points in the cemetary.
    
    I don't need help with this cemetary, I am "in control".  All of the
    entities want my presence, and so can be threatened with my departure
    if they act up.  But what others exist with this "ability", this
    control over the dead who haven't moved on?  This is one of the things
    that makes me question my sanity, yet I didn't learn all of this
    information alone, others, without any prodding, found the same
    information (however, they don't seem to have the same control over the
    cemetary as a whole).
    
    How does one reconcile this with the rest of reality?  I didn't ask for
    power over anything, in fact I'd rather just be able to have power over
    myself, let the rest take care of themselves.
    
    (fighting the urge to delete again)
    Beth

    >But what others exist with this "ability", this
    >control over the dead who haven't moved on?  This is one of the things
    >that makes me question my sanity, yet I didn't learn all of this
    >information alone, others, without any prodding, found the same
    >information (however, they don't seem to have the same control over the
    >cemetary as a whole).
    
    What is "sanity" anyway?  What purpose is there in questioning your own
    sanity?  Whether others can do what you can do or not doesn't really
    matter anyway.  Others cannot paint like Picasso or think like Stephen
    Hawking or write music like Van Morrison..  Different people have
    different abilities in different measures.  Being sane doesn't mean
    being like everyone else or it could be defined as mediocre.  The only
    real difference between us all is our attitudes.
    
>    How does one reconcile this with the rest of reality?  
    
     One doesn't know what the hell 'reality' really is in the first place
    so one is under no pressure to reconcile anything with anything. 
    Reality isn't what it appears to be... we just take it for granted.
    We create it as we go along anyway.  It isn't important to reconcile
    your experiences with reality... not really... It's spinning your
    wheels and needlessly harming yourself.  Instead... try reconciling
    reality to your experiences... it's easier ;-)
    
    >I didn't ask for power over anything, in fact I'd rather just be able 
    >to have power over myself, let the rest take care of themselves.
    
    Yea, well ... we are what we are, Beth.  And everything is the way it
    is for a reason.
    
    Know Thyself comes first... 
    
    Accepting what one finds... what one is ... is the next step, you know?
    
    You worry too much anyway.  Things have a way of taking care of
    themselves most of the time.   It's a lot easier when you stop fighting
    it.  It can be so easy if you let it.
    
    Mary

    re: .24, 
    
    Mary,
    
>    What is "sanity" anyway?  What purpose is there in questioning your own
    
    I think I understand what you mean, Mary.  
    
    There is a point to building a decent compass to guide yourself by, 
    though.  Left without any guidelines at all, free to create everything
    completely for ourselves, were not really free, we're just lost, IMO.
    
    We're likely to create a nightmare for ourselves as readily as a dream.  
    Not everyone has at this very moment of their life the same capacity 
    of self-guidance, (I think).  I'm just speculating here, but I doubt
    that it was just a momentary decision on your part to free yourself
    from what you considered artificial constraints.  I think it was most 
    likely something you built over time, your True Will, with some help in 
    the process.   You know what I mean ?  Or am I off base ?
    
    								todd

Note 1515.25          
DWOVAX::STARK 
    
>    There is a point to building a decent compass to guide yourself by, 
>    though.  Left without any guidelines at all, free to create everything
>    completely for ourselves, were not really free, we're just lost, IMO.
 
    Depends upon where one is going.  Everyone doesn't travel in the same
    direction all the time.  You may see free creation as being lost,
    Todd... but I see it as being free.  But then... one can't be lost if
    one is never found ... as the Grateful Dead would say.  
    Where are you going, Todd?
    
>    We're likely to create a nightmare for ourselves as readily as a dream.  
    
    Some of us already are.  Many of us live in nightmares of our own
    creation.
    Look around you, Todd... read a newspaper... watch tv lately?
    
    It is a nightmare.  IT IS A NIGHTMARE.  
    
    And it's because we refuse to see and admit the TRUTH.
    
    The cannibal who murders 17, boils heads and keeps them in his
    refrigerator.  THATS evil, Todd...  THATS the nightmare.  And it is
    a HUMAN who created it... it's always humans who create it.
    
    The nuclear plant that poisons every living thing around it for miles
    and miles.
    
    The people who battle their neighbors for slights long since forgotten
    ... just because they are different.. just because they have always
    hated each other.
    
    While we run around worrying about how much people weigh and who they
    sleep with and what drugs they might be using, the real nightmare
    grows and grows.
    
    WE ARE DOING IT TO OURSELVES RIGHT NOW... don't you understand that?
    
>    Not everyone has at this very moment of their life the same capacity 
>    of self-guidance, (I think).  I'm just speculating here, but I doubt
>    that it was just a momentary decision on your part to free yourself
>    from what you considered artificial constraints.  I think it was most 
>    likely something you built over time, your True Will, with some help in 
>    the process.   You know what I mean ?  Or am I off base ?
    
     Those of us who seek are always learning and are learning now.  There 
    are no guides in the wilderness... one must find one's own way.  You
    look for help and the wind blows and the birds sing and that becomes 
    all the help you need... all the help you seem to get at any rate.
    I know that I am just beginning my journey.  I know that I have a lot
    to learn.
    
    I never wanted to do it alone.
    
    I always wanted us to do it together... all of us... all of humanity..
    to plan it and to create it together in an intelligent and positive 
    manner.  
    
    But whispering voices, electronic gadgets and hidden eyes do not make 
    a team.
    To do it together, we must trust each other... and we've spent so much
    time using and manipulating each other... rationalizing the truth away.
    
    Every single problem we are experiencing today in every human society 
    is caused by the dissolution of trust.  We cannot survive as a species
    without trusting each other.  We cannot survive as a society without
    trusting each other.  And make no mistake about it, trust is a
    frightening experience at this point for everyone... every single
    person on this planet.
    
    We lie to each other.  We deceive and spy upon each other.  We
    manipulate and seek to control each other.  And in so doing, we further
    chip away at whatever trust is left between us.
    
    If we are to accomplish anything together, we must respect each other
    and trust each other and we are not doing that now.  We must be honest
    and direct and cut through all of the ego driven bullshit that clouds
    our reality.  Because *to see with the minds eye* is to reveal the 
    hypocracy and the deceit and the greed *that is a part of what we are*.  
    
    We must make a conscious choice to put that aside and choose another way.
       
    I just can't see any other way to go.... not for me.
    
    Let me know when you are ready.. and we'll do it together.
    
    Mary

    re: .26, VERGA::STANLEY "... strange trip..."
    
>    Let me know when you are ready.. and we'll do it together.
    
    	I think I'm a lost cause right now, Mary.  I don't even trust my own
    	insights, and I trust mine more than anyone else's.  That's
    	what I mean about needing a compass.   Mine's pretty fancy,
    	but it's going in circles.  Likely to end up pointing just 
    	about anywhere soon.
    
    	re: personal checks from fictional characters
    
    	Oh, I wonder how surprised will be Joel when he realizes that he
    	himself is a fictional character in one of your dreams.  :-)
    	
    	Or vice versa, perhaps ?  Or both !   Cocreation, what a concept.
    
    	And nobody take any personal checks from Woody Allen, or wooden checks
    	from Percy Allen, or wooden nickles from Allen Woodman, or ...
    
    								todd

                                                                       
    Beth,
    
    I have many wonderful teachers in my life, and the most profound
    statement about this whole business of 'teaching' was said by Gurudev
    (Yogi Amrit Desai), the yogi who founded Kripalu Center in western
    Mass.  He said:  
       
         "I am here, not to teach you, but to love you.
          Love itself will teach you."
    
    He also said something like:  I cannot teach you anything you do not
    already know.  I'm merely helping you to remember.
    
    I find that those people who love and accept me as I am are the best
    teachers in life.  Even if they don't understand what I'm talking
    about, at least they are willing to listen anyway, and by being a
    sounding board, I can figure it all out on my own eventually.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Beth,
    
    re: .23
    What you say about the dead does not sound foreign to me at all. It is
    possible however, that the bad spirit you are sensing is the
    sub-conscious creation of the very people it is keeping as prisoners.
    It is possible they may not move on until they realize who the jailer
    really is.
    
    Be carefull not to take too much resposibility on to yourself. You can
    be empathetic and caring, but that is all you can do sometimes. Don't
    try to carry the world on your shoulders and ultimately it is their
    decision to move on, with a little help from their friends. ;-)
    
    Then again, I may be quite wrong.
    
    Brian

    
    RE: .28 Cindy
    
    Yes, this is how I feel about teachers, etc.  As I've said before in
    other contexts, we ourselves bring us to others or to books or to
    experiences.  That does not lessen the role of these things in our
    lives, however, and I for one appreciate the roles all of them have
    played.
    
    Carole
    

    Re: .29
    
    Most of the dead I can ignore - for just as you stated, I won't carry
    their woes with me.  They have to solve their own problems.
    
    In the case of the cemetary, though, there is this sense of prophecy
    that I haven't quite figured out - I was anticipated/hoped for? by the
    residents, for some purpose that caused them to "man" the power points. 
    At best guess, I think they exist to guard the gateway in the grove
    that is being buried (which doesn't close the gateway, but masks it
    emanations and the physical entry points).
    
    This grove is interesting in that it has several entrances.  Each
    entrance appeals to different types of people.  Two of the 4 entrances
    that I can sense have been blocked by dirt and grass.  A third is
    blocked by a fence.  The last will be closed in a year.  It's kind of
    sad to see this place be buried.  I won't have the chance to properly
    explore it before it is all covered.
    
    Beth

Note 1515.27          
DWOVAX::STARK 
    
>    Let me know when you are ready.. and we'll do it together.
    
It was the 'royal we' ;-).
        
>	I think I'm a lost cause right now, Mary.  I don't even trust my own
>    	insights, and I trust mine more than anyone else's.  That's
>    	what I mean about needing a compass.   Mine's pretty fancy,
>    	but it's going in circles.  Likely to end up pointing just 
>    	about anywhere soon.
    
        Everybody appears to be in the process of getting their act
    together at the moment.
    
    Certainly guidelines are needed but guidelines can only be developed
    when contributing members are aware that they are a part of a team.
    
    And working with psi's is different than working with other people
    sometimes, you know?  They know when they are being lied to or 
    deceived or whatever... well... you know...  Trust cannot develop
    in such an atmosphere and individuals cannot function as a team unless
    they share a certain amount of trust.  They must share in the decision
    making process, they cannot be treated like objects.
    
    Can you tell that I've been reading a lot of science fiction lately?
    :-)
    
    Mary
    

    other personal experiences (they don't all deal with the dead ;-)
    
    A friend of mine is a Wiccan priest, and learned "blood" magic (rituals
    that require the caster to bleed a bit).
    
    One night we were assisting another friend, and erected wards about the
    apartment together.  Towards the end of the warding process, the Wiccan
    friend attempted to "seal" the wards with a bit of blood - no matter
    how hard he tried, he could not cut himself.  I checked, it was
    definitely a sharp knife, and he was applying enough pressure to leave
    a pressure dent in his arm, but there was not even a slight scratch in
    his skin.  I knew (in that strange way we have :-) that as long as I
    was involved in the wards, and helping to maintain them, he could not
    cut himself as a part of the ritual.  I didn't try to prevent it, but,
    it happened that way.
    
    So much of what I am involved in seems to be innate ability - no need
    for rituals or channeling devices, just a mind set.  From what I
    understand, the mind set is the important part, and rituals, chants,
    etc., are just ways of inducing it.  Is there more to it than that?
    
    Beth

    re: .33 (Beth)
    
        "...erected wards..."
    
        "...the end of the warding process..."
    
        "...'seal' the wards..."
    
        Hey, this sounds like something I might relate to!
    
    ;-)
    Frederick
    (Ward)
    

    Re: .34   -< An edifice or a concept? >-
    
    Well, I suppose wards would be best explained as energy fields designed
    to keep out specific forms of energy.  You build them with the power of
    your will (ritual helps some people focus the will, and visual the end
    product better).  When two people work to build them, it is stronger, and 
    the sealing is how you make them stay up after you are done concentrating
    on them.  The wards I am accustomed to putting up are NOT permanent, but
    require bolstering from time to time.  Kind of like recharging a
    battery.
    
    Detection of a ward can not as yet (to the best of my knowledge) be
    done with mechanical devices, just as many spiritual experiences cannot
    be measured or captured with mechanical devices.
    
    
    
    
    For myself, I have explained some psionic ability in this way:  it is
    known that the human body functions with electricity of a sort.  It
    generates energy is some way.  The aura is equivalent to the heat
    distortion of air.  Telekinesis is extending the field around yourself
    to manipulate the energy fields around something else (kind of like a
    magnet).  Empathy and telepathy are reading the emotional and mental
    patterns of another's body, like you read the patterns of your own body.
    Empathy and telepathy don't have to be just reading patterns, though. 
    You can modify the patterns in another person, just as you modify the
    patterns in yourself.  Faith healers and other types of psychic
    healers are people capable of manipulating bodily functions (a very
    rough description).  
    
    "Magic" is like these abilities, only you are sensing and manipulating 
    energy patterns on a larger scale.  Hence the ability to create wards
    and affect other peoples realities.
    
    Why doesn't everyone sense these energies and patterns?  For the same
    reason that not everyone can play basketball, or see colors, or sing on
    key: genetics
    
    Beth 

    re: .35 (Beth)
    
        Thanks.
    
        "The wards I am accustomed to putting up are NOT permanent, but require
    bolstering from time to time..."
         Yeah, I know the feeling.  ;-)
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .33
    
    No, Beth... thats about it.  

    	The following seems appropriate re: teachers, it was adapted from 
    	Dan Millman's note at the end of his book "Way of the Peaceful 
    	Warrior". ( I changed a couple of things that refered back to a
    	character in the book, for the sake of readability.)
    
	"A book can inspire, expand perspectives, remind of the truth
	we already know - but real transformation entails a whole life of
	practice.

	The life and practice of the peaceful warrior is action - being
	useful to others. In the eyes of Spirit, little things count. What
	you give, you receive. _Doing_ is understanding. And you can do
	anything when you find the heart for it, and the courage.

	Of course we make mistakes; it's how we learn. We're all in
	training. Life can be difficult; what an opportunity! The Light
	will disturb us when we're comfortable, and comfort us when
	we're disturbed. We turn to Spirit for help when our foundations
	are shaking, only to find that it is Spirit who is shaking them.

	I'm not special; we all have our "teachers". S/He's your higher
	self. So be guided by the best that's within you. In any moment
	you can ask "What would my higher self do?" and you'll know the
	right course. Trust yourself, trust the process that is your
	life, You are the spiritual being you've been waiting for.

	It's said that there's one Journey but many paths. Here's wishing
	you well on your own path, on the Journey without distance we
	travel together."

	Hi Beth,

	A couple of comments taken from your base note and a reply leads me
to suggest a possibility for you.

	From .35 -

	>Why doesn't everyone sense these energies and patterns?  For the same
    	>reason that not everyone can play basketball, or see colors, or sing on
	>key: genetics
     
	I get this "definitive" sense from reading this, in the "This person 
seems very intelligent and certainly sounds like they know what they're talking
about" vein.

	Then from .0 -

	>Yet, each time there comes a point at which I outgrow these teachers.

	I think, "is it any wonder?"

	Sometimes we decieve ourselves and everyone around us with our 
egocentric beliefs about ourselves. Perhaps one of the highest forms of
spirituality is the ability to let down our egocentric belief that we know
*anything* so "definitely", and allow ourselves to instead "be teachable".

	It is egocentric to think that you're "beyond" what anyone, thing
or experience can teach you. Maybe you're highest in spirituality when you
realize that the lowest, smallest, most unlikely source possibly contains
the greatest lesson for you. Humility.

	Hope this helps.

	Joe
    

    RE: .39
    Joe, I guess I need to define outgrow - I don't think that they can no
    longer teach me, but, as I grow from experiencing with them, I
    eventually become dissapointed in them - they "teach" me enough to
    start to see holes in their teaching - for all their knowledge, they
    have insufficient wisdom.  After that point, the relationship
    detiorates.  Either, I question their judgement one to many times,
    which drives them away, or I quit their company.
    
    I do understand that there is something to be learned from everything
    that happens to me and around me.  Before I had ever heard anyone else
    make the statement, I helped myself recover from emotional trauma by
    telling myself that whatever happens, happens for the best - I learn
    from it and improve my life.
    
    Yes there is egocentricity.  It is a reaction to too many years of NOT
    thinking about myself, and being somewhat abused for it (not
    physically, but emotionally and ,uh, mentally, I guess is the right
    word).  I decided it was time to take care of myself, and let other
    take care of themselves, for a while.  This doesn't apply to everyone,
    but to anyone who shows signs of being a user and manipulator.  At
    least one of my teachers was one such person.  I regret that I was
    unable to gain more knowledge from her, but she was one of those that I
    questioned once to often.  If I didn't blindly agree with her, I was
    against her.  I grew enough while her student to not be swayed or
    controlled, and she left in her way (to the extent of not letting me
    know her new address, despite the fact that I see no reason why we
    can't continue as friends - equals).
    
    Granted, each of these teachers has come along just as I needed some
    guidance, however, it would be nice to know that there is one out there
    that will not eventually dissapoint me in a serious way (I know that
    nobody is perfect, if I expected perfection, I would still be single
    ;-).  Honesty, to one self, and others, is important, and yet this is
    the biggest problem most of my "teachers" have had.  The worst one was
    so good at lying, she would even convince herself that anything bad
    that happened to her was in no way even partly her own fault.  I
    suppose you could say she was not very good at integrating her reality
    with the realities of the rest of the population.
    
    
    
    
    
    A conclusion I came to over the weekend was that this is the next step
    - being more vocal about my experiences and skills.  To start to accept
    that part of myself without the fear of being ostracized or penalized
    in some way.
    
    Thanks for all the responses, for the support they give, and the
    thoughts they provoke.
    
    Beth

    Hi Beth,
    
    	Some of your teachers sound familiar, wonder if we know the
    	same people, ;-)
    
    	Just a thought when reading your last reply, I think it 
    	would be very rare to find "one" teacher that after
    	a certain amount of time you wouldn't eventually out grow.
    	The teachers are are on thier own paths, the teacher and
    	yourself are continuing to grow, so will always need 
    	different teachers for diffrent things and the teacher
    	diffrent students, I don't think anyone can take you
    	beyond a level till your ready and already have the answer.
    
    	Much like 1 cookbook, even the most complete, is not complete.
    	You reference many along the way, depending on your skill
    	level of cooking, you never really outgrow the beginner books.
    	But tire of them easily in pursuit of more complicated technique
    	and flavors. Eventually you return to some basics because
    	you tire of complication and yearn for tried and true easy
    	flavors, but when you return to earlier techniques you see
    	them in a diffrent light and have now mastered technique which
    	gives the old dish a diffrent flavor.
    
    	Well not to ramble, maybe it's a bad analogy, but basically
    	you do have all you need to know, teachers, I think just help
    	you see what you know, and basically hold your hand while
    	you realize it. They help you get there a little quicker,
    	but you would have gotten there anyway.
    
    Marilyn

    yep

    One of the most scariest things to happen to me when I was
    chronologically a small child, was seeing the Twilight Zone episode,
    "To Serve Man". Any reference to cook books and pschic phenomena and
    cooking together, brings up images of Ted Cassidy (The Alien on the
    show. Also Lurch) and humans in stew pots. Ahh the things that scar our
    psyches.  :-)
    
    
    PJ

    
    	Gosh PJ sorry to didn't mean to "stir the pot"
    	I used to love the twilight zone, but I don't remember that one.
    
    	Next time, I'll try to use uuhhmm maybe computer programing?
    
    	Naaahhh!
    
    Marilyn

    re: .44 (Marilyn)
    
          Gosh, then *I* might get scared!  Every time I hear the word
    I think of eunuchs, and *that's* scary!
    
    Frederick
    

    CP is fine. I'm not a programer. I'm not even a programper. I am,
    however pro grandparents. sorry to rathole this topic Beth. I get silly
    now and then.
    
    PJ

    
    The problem, as I see it, is that a teacher is presumed to be an expert
    in or at least familiar with the subject matter being 'taught'.  
    
    None of us have much of a clue what we're dealing with here.
    
    Now, you could put together a collection of different masters from
    different disciplines... and they would all show you what they believe
    to be the way... and it would take a lifetime to assimilate all of that
    collective knowledge..  But the essence of what they are all trying to
    show you is very closely related..  
    
    I'm not an American Indian nor a Tibetian Buddhist nor a Sufi nor a 
    Wiccan nor a Christian Mystic... but I see the common bonds between all
    of those disciplines... the 'essence' so to speak.
    
    I think that any really good teacher must also be a student... because 
    no one knows all there is to know and life is a process of continuous
    learning.  I think that any school that was established, would have to
    be more of a research center where the on-going search itself was the 
    objective or purpose and where any achievements were viewed as merely 
    stepping stones along the way of an ongoing journey into the unknown.
    
    Mary

    
    .47
    
    I really like that last paragraph Mary!
    
    
    Carole

    re: 41
    
    "...mastered technique which gives the old dish a different flavor."
    
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Beth,
    
         Maybe what you need is a student...
    
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I must comment that your skills/experiences have sparked a new interest
    within me. I read all of the responses, to your note, and I feel less
    hesitant to respond myself. I have to say it's kind of funny how you
    sometimes overlook important things and get caught up in this game
    called LIFE. (Society tends to manipulate one's mind which leads you
    to believe your wrong when expressing a truly honest opinion or belief.)
    ----Thank You for Dejavu!---- (It's time for a change!)
    What I'm trying to say is, I think it's ***GREAT*** you can share such
    a special part of yourself with us!! Also I want you to know that
    in/outside this notesfile you can count on me for an open mind!
     
    I hope you find that teacher...but did you ever think that teacher
    was yourself looking for a student? (Endless possibilities... huh?) 
    
    Michelle_looking_for_a_teacher 
      -When do we start? ;^)-
    
    :-) In any case, I'm looking forward to reading more stories!! :-)
     :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)   :-)

    
    re: .48
    
    Thanks Carole,
    
    It should be a research center.. a psychic research center... but it 
    should have living quarters where we can stay... 
    
    It should be a place where scientists from a variety of
    different disciplines could come together with psions to figure this
    out.  The physical sciences should be included, the behavioral sciences
    should be included.
    
    It should have psychiatrists to help us to deal with the
    emotional issues that both the psions and the scientists will have to 
    deal with within themselves.  
    
    The psions and the scientists should be considered equal, have equal 
    control over experiments and get paid equal amounts.
    
    The government should fund it.  Government could feed in representatives
    from world governments that present problems of concern to them for us 
    to work on *as experiments* but we must have equal say over which projects 
    we'll take on and which we'll pass by.
    
    It should be a comfortable atmosphere .... large, extensive grounds..
    security provided.  A great big house ... the first floor can be
    devoted to visiting specialists ... a mingling of mystics and
    scientists.. seminars.  
    The whole place should be wired for computers and we should be linked 
    into networks.
    
    It should allow pets.... and music.
    
    ...Loose hierarchy but some kind of administrator... administration... 
    
    Somebody else take care of the details, ok? :-)
    
    Thats what I want.  That is my choice.  
    
    We really have to figure this out.
    
    
    Mary

    
    Re.50 Mary - picky, picky.  (;^)  On the other hand, why not!
    
    Re. more on teachers
    
    I recognized my eternal guru/teacher because of his integrity and his
    humility.  Knowledgewise, I know far more than he will probably ever
    know about certain topics, however when I speak with him, a few of his
    words go a LONG way.  I'm still trying to absorb things he said to me
    several years ago.  Knowledge and wisdom are two very different things. 
    For extending his kindness toward me when I was in need of it, and for
    being such a positive role model in my life, he has my eternal gratitude.
    
    BTW, his name is Dave, he is 54, and he was casuality of the layoffs 
    in Australia.  Your positive energy and thoughts sent in his direction 
    would be most appreciated.  He's taking it as well as can be expected,
    however I'm still in shock...
    
    Cindy

    Yes, Cindy... integrity and humility are very important.  
    
    Ethics and attitude .... ethics and attitude.
    
    We must approach the unknown without preconceived expectations or we
    won't find Truth... we'll only find what we expect to find.
    
    We need open minds and a sincere attitude... we need to want to know 
    the Truth.
    
    Mary

    Michelle,
    
    Hi!!! Fancy finding you here!  I didn't know you read this stuff! 
    Wait, you do NERO, I should have known better.  But none of this
    student/teacher stuff - just friends sharing.
    
    If you want to discuss this stuff whenever we get together, sure.  And
    there will be a few more stories.  Some of them are real personal,
    though, and take even more bravery to enter than the previous stuff.
    
    Thanks,
    Beth
    
    (for those who are wondering, NERO is the New England Roleplaying
    Organization.  Check out SASE::NERO note file if interested :-)

    
    You know... maybe we should scratch that research center idea.  Maybe
    it's not such a good idea anyway.  
    
    We've come this far without funding or the cooperation of science and
    government.  Perhaps a venture like this would just end up putting
    power in the hands of the wrong people.  I mean...it's obvious that
    they don't trust us... perhaps it is because they judge us by their
    own standards... in which case, we must be very careful... far more
    careful then I've been so far.
    
    Maybe it's time to go back to the way things were and forget all
    this...  or dream the dreams inside our own heads... just like always.
    
    If one can will it to happen, perhaps one can will it to stop, or
    perhaps one can will it to hide.
    
      	... but somehow... no matter what... I know it's coming.. and
    soon... very soon...  regardless of what we do one way or another..

    Don't give up too soon, Mary.  There is a place that has many of the
    characteristics you cite--Esalen Institute.  It is not, however, run by
    the "government". It is self-sustaining, though they sometimes get
    foundation money (most recently, from the Rockefellers to re-furbish
    the "Big House" [How'd you know?]) Esalen is open to many different
    points of view, a wide variety of teachers (there is no orthodoxy). It
    is on 100 acres over the Pacific, and offers seekers a chance to
    experience many different points of view.  There is a wonderful
    bookstore, vegetarian and otherwise, healthy, food, natural hot spring
    baths, etc. 
    
    If anyone is interested, you may write Esalen at: Big Sur, California
    93920, and ask for a catalog. The telephone number is (408) 667-3000.
    
    Richard B

    A self-sustaining institute would be preferable anyway... it would
    be unemcumbered by politics.
    
    They'd probably just see me as just another nut though, Richard. :-)

    Or you guys could call my buddies Bob Fasic and Roy Grieshaber,
    who operate "Heartwood", a Healing Arts Institute in 
    Garberville, CA.  
    
    I have no economic affiliation here, I hasten to add.  Bob and
    Roy used to go to Esalen quite regularly.  And then they
    discovered Heartwood and worked out a deal to buy the place.
    They live and work there and love it very much.  I am remiss in
    not having made it there, but that's life.  They have 220 acres
    in a beautiful part of northern California.
    
    Phone number is: 707/923-2021.
    
    Joel
    

    Thanks Joel... 
    
    Mary

    Okay, time for another story.  This is a long one, starting about 7
    years ago.
    
    I had always felt drawn to the south (I grew up in New Jersey, USA).  I
    went to school in West Virginia.  My first job was in the Washington,
    D.C. area.  At that job, I met a fellow from the Atlanta, GA., area. 
    Oddly enough, I seemed to have known him from another time/place, where
    the monsters of our faery tales were real.  So real, that he and I, the
    Lord and Lady of a keep, died defending the walls (magical combat as
    well as physical).  Well, he was only in the D.C. area temporarily, and
    between knowing him, and wanting out of the military contract business,
    I went to Atlanta.  This fellow was interested in psychic phenomenon,
    and considered himself a magician.  He was the first teacher.
    
    Once there, I met and dated another fellow.  He, however, was of the
    opinion that any psionic/psychic abilities/phenomenon were directly
    attributable to Satan.  He tried strongly to keep me from involvement,
    and would not even discuss the possibility of empathy being a genetic
    trait, not a gift from the devil.  He was hypacritical (sp?) in his
    beliefs, because he used abilities of his own.
    
    While the relationship with this fellow was at its strongest, we got
    engaged.  He gave me a ring that he had worn for a LONG time.  This
    ring was made of silver, and was originally a replica of the crown of
    thorns.  He wore it long enough that the rough parts were worn down. 
    The emotional and mental state at the time I received it (he made me
    remove it from his hand) caused more than just the ring to be
    transferred between us (I didn't know it at the time, but he had to
    have).
    
    Time passed (a few months), and an old girlfriend of his moved back
    into the area.  Having met her (via mutual acquaintances), I can say
    that she is manipulative and jealous, and a tease as well (at one
    party, she was coming on to numerous fellows, without him seeing it).
    She must have decided she would have him back, and proceeded to f**k up
    my reality (being newly/barely aware, I didn't realize what happened
    until too late), and manipulate him (via guilt).  Needless to say, the
    engagement was ended.  But during the ending, several things happened.
    
    Before the detioration had gone to far, I had taken the ring, which
    until that time I wore on a chain, and wound yarn around it until I
    could wear it (on the same finger he wore it on).  I didn't realize it
    at the time, but I recognize the sensation now, but I "did" something
    while wrapping the yarn and placing it on my hand - as I put it on, it
    was like putting him on - I had knowledge, as if first hand, of things
    in his life that shaped his personality.  I believe he was aware of
    this event, because he started to fear me.  A little, at first, but
    extremely, by the end.
    
    This breakup hurt, so much so that I gave up eating for about a month. 
    But the pain seemed to speed up the awakening abilities.  One evening,
    sitting alone, crying, I felt as though the tears were blood gathered
    into a cup.  In my mind, I offered this cup to him.  I met resistance,
    and broke through it.  I met denial, and a spirit "from above" (this is
    how I interpreted the location of this other entity) made him take the
    cup and drink from it.  Then, the spirit took the cup away.  After this
    incidence, his fear grew more.
    
    Other things frightened him, like the coincidence of us both being
    at the same place on a Saturday afternoon.  Or my strength through the
    emotional pain (I gave him the space to exercise his free will, never
    demanded of him - he didn't seem to comprehend this kind of love).  Or
    that despite his feeling for the other girl after leaving me, he still
    was strongly attracted to me.  When he finally vocalized what I already
    knew, he also finally asked for the ring back.  I said, "fine, but you
    must remove it from me as I removed it from you".  What I hoped would
    happen was that he would take back the ring and everything connected to
    it (which, by now, included some of me).  But, he sheilded, and only
    took the physical ring.  His mistake.  Leaving the rest behind, and I
    considered some of it as crap, for there were many negative feelings in it 
    that I didn't want to be burdened with.  I suppose the most significant
    thing he left behind however was an energy pattern like the ring, with
    lines extending off from the points of the thorns.  One of the lines
    extends to him, the other to his (now) wife.  
    
    I tried for a long time to get him to take his emotional baggage back,
    and eventually succeeded.  But for a long time after the break up
    (years), I had this "thing" follow me around.  Even after he took the
    baggage back, I can "look" in his direction and know how his life goes. 
    But he chose be become an enemy - he told friends I had tried to
    persuade him with magic, that I was evil.  He even tried to burn out
    whatever it is that enables me to manipulate energy patterns, much to
    his chagrin, for all he did was feed me power, and come to fear me
    more.
    
    I learned much from this breakup - this is where I first told myself
    that whatever happens, happens for the best.  I met my husband because
    of the breakup, and learned more about my capabilities during all the
    assaults on me and my reality.  And I learned that he and I would never
    have lived happily ever after.  But I do know that, in his wife, he got
    what he deserved (and, unfortunately, their marriage has NOT been a
    happy one - I will admit to a kind of satisfaction in this knowledge,
    confirmed by a mutual friend, but I did not wish him ill).  I also was
    tested by that breakup - at one point I could have had him back, by
    taking away his free will, I had the power or would have been "granted"
    the power, if I chose to.  But ethics won out, that and the knowledge
    that I wouldn't have wanted him after getting him that way.
    
    Another thing I realized shortly after the breakup, was that I had
    known him in a previous life also - but the emotions of that life were
    just as this life - honest love on my part, desire and fear on his.  It
    is a cycle between us that he needs to break (I can't improve it other
    than to not deal with him in the first place).  But as long as he
    retains the fear, he will be bound to the cycle.
    
    His fear also taught me this - your fear is what makes you vulnerable. 
    Acknowledging the fear, but not letting it control you, is okay.  But
    once you let it control you, you have lost.  I still have the advantage
    and power of this fellow because of the fear (but hopefully I will
    ignore the temptation it presents, and let him be in his reality).

    This is sort of a continuation.
    
    I stated that I met my husband as a result of the breakup.  And that is
    the best thing that ever happened to me.  I know that he is my true
    "other half".  He was the first and will be the last love of my lives.
    
    Once, while still only dating, a friend had me "look" at him and
    another fellow.  With the second, I saw a possibility.  With my (now)
    husband, I could only see death taking him from me (which was saddening
    at the time, I kept interpreting it as he would die young.  Now I just
    suspect I'll outlive him).  Well, part of the wedding vows is "till
    death do you part".  At the time, I didn't know where our relationship
    was going.
    
    This husband claims not to believe in psionics/psychic phenomenon.  I
    say claims.  I don't believe this statement from him.  Too many times
    have I noticed him manipulating energy fields.  And, once, during an
    emotional moment, while we were deciding on the time to start our
    family, he stated that "they never let us before, but this time it is
    our choice" (referring to having children).
    
    I have seen some things about our future, and some of it involves the
    rest of humanity:  a tragedy will occur, both physical and psychic war. 
    This has been seen by others than myself, and we all feel it will occur
    soon (a few years from now).  I'm not saying it can't be diverted, but
    the probability of it occuring is VERY high right now.
    
    When I first started "seeing" this future, it was grim.  Although we
    succeed, most didn't survive, including my husband.  I would, and my
    "job" in the aftermath would be raising The Children, some mine, some
    belonging to others.  There came a point recently, though, when my 
    husband once admitted to some training, and although the battle is still 
    ahead, the results don't seem so tragic.  The most probable future I 
    "see" shows him still alive, and I still will be looking after many
    children.  Ask my husband point blank, and he will deny having ever
    made such a statement (or any statements of a psychic nature), but ever
    since that admission, there is more hope in my future.
    
    I realize that the futures I see are subject to misinterpretation of
    the information.  And I know that I most likely see only a small part
    of what occurs - most of it is personal to me.  But this global tragedy
    is coming within the next few years (5 at the most).  Two of my friends 
    have felt this, and one talked to a nun who believes the same.  I know
    that this "prediction" is undesirable, but it seems that just willing
    it to not happen won't be enough.  There is someone/thing out there
    that wills this to happen, and it is very strong.  Other things still
    need to occur to reduce the probability of this future.
    
    Thanks to those who have listened.  Entering this stuff is hard, but I
    think it is necessary.  I need feedback from others whose evaluations I
    have respect for (doesn't necessarily mean I agree with them, but other
    viewpoints are helpful).  And this is a note file for psychic
    phenomenon, and third party experiences aren't all that we should be
    discussing.  Talligai, and Mary Stanly, have had the most influence in
    getting me to enter this stuff.
    
    I think I will now go back to work, and ignore the feelings of
    embarressment.
    
    Beth

DSSDEV::GRIFFIN 
    
    I doubt we'll see another physical war, although the possibilities are
    always there.... China is certainly on the road.  But magicians and
    warriors have fought together on this planet since the beginning of
    time.  
    
    There are far more important things happening now.  Don't sweat the
    small stuff.
    
    >But this global tragedy
    >is coming within the next few years (5 at the most).  Two of my friends 
    >have felt this, and one talked to a nun who believes the same.  I know
    >that this "prediction" is undesirable, but it seems that just willing
    >it to not happen won't be enough.  
    
    Why not?
    
    >There is someone/thing out there
    >that wills this to happen, and it is very strong.  
    
    Very strong compared to what.. compared to whom?  
    
    >Other things still
    >need to occur to reduce the probability of this future.
    
    Well, decide what they are and make them happen if you can... if you
    want to.
    
    They say that all the Seer has is his vision, ...but thats not true...
    he also has a choice.
    
    Choose, Beth.  
    
    Just understand that... in so doing, you accept responsibility for your
    choices.  Consider carefully before you choose.
    
    Mary

    DSSDEV::GRIFFIN
    
    You know what, Beth?  I've sometimes thought that if I were ... oh say... 
    maybe a member of a certain government agency perhaps... and I wanted
    to ... oh say... find out how psions did what they did... that I would
    probably approach them in the very way you did (coincidently enough).
    
    I would be so stuck in the old secretive ways of doing things that I
    wouldn't want to be honest with them and just offer them a job or
    something..  Nope,... I'd have to sneak around and try to trick them
    or fool them and then take everything they said and have it analyzed 
    by God (forgive the term) knows how many three-piece suits hiding
    high priced consultants with scientific mindsets who don't have a 
    glimmer of a clue whats going on and probably never will.
    
    You know what though?  It wouldn't take me very long to smarten up...
    but then I'm a quick learner...  or perhaps "ignorant master" is more
    appropriate... I liked that term, Tennant. :-)
    
    Have a nice day.

    >>that this "prediction" is undesirable, but it seems that just willing
    >>it to not happen won't be enough.
    >
    >Why not?
    
    Each of us percieves a reality, and controls our own reality.  However,
    these realities interact, and if one person desires reality one way,
    but 5 desire it another way, it won't totally be what any of them
    pictured (this is my opinion/interpretation of experience).  Which
    leads to:
    
    >>There is someone/thing out there
    >>that wills this to happen, and it is very strong.
    
    >Very strong compared to what.. compared to whom?
    
    Compared to all humanity, I think.  Which is why it is only a
    probability, not a certainty.  If enough changes occur with the rest of
    the population, the probability of this future diminishes, despite what
    this other wills.  Sometime magical combat is no more than a contest of
    wills.  If one will is stronger than another, than his/her reality will
    be more likely or influential, IMO.
    
    >Choose, Beth.
    
    I am not the only one who has to choose.  I have chosen, and those
    around me have chosen also.  But what of the choices of the rest of
    humanity?  And do they even know if they have a choice on this
    matter.  It is easy to manipulate the future of someone when they don't
    know they can control it.  I have done, am doing, what I can to affect
    the future.  But I can't do it alone.  Not yet, anyway ;-)  Aside from
    personal choices, I can but inform others, make them aware also.  As I
    stated before, the probable effects of the conflict are already
    reduced.  The vision has changed, the tragedy is not so drastic.
    
    
    As a Seer, I don't see just the most probable (although it is the
    easiest to see).  I can look down other alternatives, and I try to
    choose the best alternative.  Sometimes it is NOT best to choose an
    alternative free of all conflicts.  The results may be more drastic. 
    This conflict is one of those events that I feel should happen for the
    best of all involved, but which version of the conflict is still to be
    decided (it takes time to research all the possibilities).  Earlier
    visions showed a world so physically devastated that mankind would be
    generations in the recovery.  Now, recovery will be a matter or years
    or decades (I haven't looked enough yet, but am compiling the options).
    
    >you accept responsibility for your choices.
    
    I have always accepted the responsibility for my choices, and promote
    it in others (subtly, though.  I'm not good at being a ram it down the
    throat type).
    
    Beth
    Beth

Note 1515.63          
DSSDEV::GRIFFIN 
    
    
>    Each of us percieves a reality, and controls our own reality.  However,
>    these realities interact, and if one person desires reality one way,
>    but 5 desire it another way, it won't totally be what any of them
>    pictured (this is my opinion/interpretation of experience).  Which
>    leads to:
    
It's not my experience.    
    
>    Compared to all humanity, I think.  Which is why it is only a
>    probability, not a certainty.  If enough changes occur with the rest of
>    the population, the probability of this future diminishes, despite what
>    this other wills.  Sometime magical combat is no more than a contest of
>    wills.  If one will is stronger than another, than his/her reality will
>    be more likely or influential, IMO.
    
Sometimes?  All the time.
    So who'se to say whose will is stronger?  A magickal will isn't like
    an ordinary will, you know... or did you know? :-)    
    
>    I am not the only one who has to choose.  I have chosen, and those
>    around me have chosen also.  But what of the choices of the rest of
>    humanity?  And do they even know if they have a choice on this
>    matter.  
    
    Depends on whether they are awake or not... upon whether they even 
    know.
    
    >It is easy to manipulate the future of someone when they don't
    >know they can control it.  
    
    It's easy even when they do know.
    
    >I have done, am doing, what I can to affect
    >the future.  But I can't do it alone.  Not yet, anyway ;-)  Aside from
    >personal choices, I can but inform others, make them aware also.  As I
    >stated before, the probable effects of the conflict are already
    >reduced.  The vision has changed, the tragedy is not so drastic.
    
    You worry too much.
    
>    As a Seer, I don't see just the most probable (although it is the
>    easiest to see).  I can look down other alternatives, and I try to
>    choose the best alternative.  Sometimes it is NOT best to choose an
>    alternative free of all conflicts.  The results may be more drastic. 
>    This conflict is one of those events that I feel should happen for the
>    best of all involved, 
    
    Why?  Why do you feel that "this conflict is one of those events that
    should happen for the best of all involved"
    
    If it is for the best of all involved... then why not let it happen?
    
    >but which version of the conflict is still to be
    >decided (it takes time to research all the possibilities).  
    
    Not much... scan the time streams.
    
    >Earlier visions showed a world so physically devastated that mankind 
    >would be generations in the recovery.  
    
    Yea... I remember...
    
    >Now, recovery will be a matter or years
    >or decades (I haven't looked enough yet, but am compiling the options).
    
    The stream has been altered already..
    
>    I have always accepted the responsibility for my choices, and promote
>    it in others (subtly, though.  I'm not good at being a ram it down the
>    throat type).
    
     Oh... I don't know about that.  Maybe you just need practice ramming
    it down a few throats. :-)
    
    Mary

    Re: .62
    
    Are you trying to imply something?  What approach are you referring to?
    I'm confused by that reply.
    
    I am just trying to find the best way to incorporate what I am into
    this world, where people will talk about others, but not themselves. 
    People talk about the inconsequential experiences, but not the
    significant stuff (that maybe many need to hear about).
    
    Mary, your openness with your beliefs, and the entries by Talligai and
    other walk-ins, are among the few significant experiences entered in here.
    (not counting the yoga/other disciplines discussed in here - they are
    significant, but are different types of experiences)  They helped me be 
    less paranoid about opening up myself.  On my own, I have
    developed theories about how I do things, and I welcome evaluation so
    that I can find the holes and fix the errors before I do serious
    damange ;-)  I am not associated with any agency, and would be most
    likely to clam up if I thought I was being used.  Are the notes in this
    conference being used???  I would think not, but who knows.  I anyone
    was analyzing my replies, they are not getting any information I am not
    trying to make known to many others as well.
    
    Beth

    re: 61 (Mary)
    
    When you say choose do you mean good vs. evil?
    
    Or do you mean, choose to make a difference vs. watching the world go
    by?
    
    Michelle

    
    
    Hi Beth,
    
    I get feelings about the future also, but I don't see visions such as
    you do.  It's not an easy thing, to see some of the probable futures of
    humanity.  Just wanted you to know that I've read other sources that
    also say that the probabilities are changing for the better, due to the
    efforts being made by groups of people.  Hang in there!
    
    Hugs,
    Carole

    I probalby should clarify the conflict.  I suppose it goes on even now. 
    There is something that humanity needs to overthrow, not just will
    away, in order for humanity to learn the necessary lesson.  Humanity
    has to WANT to overthrow this thing, though, and of course it is not
    without its supporters.  The more people that are alerted/awakened, the
    better, but it's more than that.
    
    As for not having time to look at all the possibilities, well, theres
    work, housework, my child, sleep (a rare commodity when a newborn is in
    the house).  I would like to be able to set aside time to see more
    possibilities and outcomes, but, well, something always seems to come
    up.  I am trying, however, to plan more time for this, as it is
    becoming more important aspect of my life.  I no longer have to focus
    so much energy on my career, so I can work on developing the inner me
    (hence the concern about teachers, too).
    
    Beth                                    

Note 1515.65          
DSSDEV::GRIFFIN 
    
    Every major intelligence agency on the planet monitors these notesfiles
    and they have for awhile.
    
    Sometimes specific people who represent them will come in to antagonize
    or encourage us in certain directions in order to gain information or
    to evaluate response.
    
Note 1515.66          
VIRGO::TENNEY                                         
    
>    When you say choose do you mean good vs. evil?
>    Or do you mean, choose to make a difference vs. watching the world go
>    by?
    
     I mean both actually, Michelle.  We think of evil as an active rather
    than a passive act but it can be either (in my humble opinion).  To
    sit on a river bank and watch a little child wander in, get into
    trouble and drown... while you sit by... idle and aware... is to me
    an evil act.  All you needed to do was reach out your hand to make
    a difference.  
    
    And yet to protect a youngster from the consequences of his own actions
    is to condemn him to repeat that action... in that case... protection is
    not the preferable act.
    
    So when you choose, you must weigh all of the myriad consequence of the
    choice you have made.  You must consider how that choice effects
    everybody concerned and you must consider all of the many different
    ramifications of that choice that will echo throughout reality ....
    because everything is connected and a seemingly insignificant choice
    can have far reaching and long term effects.  You must see and be aware
    of all of those effects.  And that is what is ment by a "conscious
    choice".
    
Note 1515.68          
DSSDEV::GRIFFIN 
    
>    I probalby should clarify the conflict.  I suppose it goes on even now. 
>    There is something that humanity needs to overthrow, not just will
>    away, in order for humanity to learn the necessary lesson.  Humanity
>    has to WANT to overthrow this thing, though, and of course it is not
>    without its supporters.  The more people that are alerted/awakened, the
>    better, but it's more than that.
    
    I know what you're talking about.  Ignorance, greed, selfishness,
    materialism ... these are all tools that are used by some in their
    control of others.  There are those who have certain kinds of
    paranormal abilities who have chosen to use them for their own personal
    advantage... their own personal gain, and not for the benefit of all.
    They have many names ... these people.  We sometimes refer to them as
    the Dark Brotherhood.  They use people, they manipulate them and
    control them and they do it dressed in prominence and respectability.
    They are not all from here and they are not all human.
    
    If humanity can wake up and see the Truth ... of reality and the
    human condition, ... then they will be free of them forever.  But Truth
    isn't something that can be forced on people... people must want to be
    free, they must want to know the Truth, they must accept what they
    find.  It sounds easy, ... but it isn't.
        
>    As for not having time to look at all the possibilities, well, theres
>    work, housework, my child, sleep (a rare commodity when a newborn is in
>    the house).  I would like to be able to set aside time to see more
>    possibilities and outcomes, but, well, something always seems to come
>    up.  I am trying, however, to plan more time for this, as it is
>    becoming more important aspect of my life.  I no longer have to focus
>    so much energy on my career, so I can work on developing the inner me
>    (hence the concern about teachers, too).
    
     You know, Beth ... all you really need is desire.  To want to Know.
     One can think while doing housework and passing through the days
    activities.  Or as Van Morrison says, "listen to the music inside,
    can you hear what it says to you". 
    They can load you down with financial troubles (which are largely
    illusion), they can create a police state to try to breed depression
    and the illusion of hopelessness, they can control your body with laws
    and jails ... but your mind and your heart are your own... and if they
    lead you to the Truth, then you have an infinite amount of choices...
    and those choices can alter reality itself.
    
    You can choose that reality be different... for you.. for everyone.
    
    You can make reality into anything you want it to be.... we all can.
    
    Someday we will shatter reality ... like smashing a diamond... and the
    pieces will scatter and we will, each one of us, live in a world of our
    own creation.  You are a CREATOR.  Choose wisely.  Choose happiness.
    CHOOSE LOVE.
    
    	"Dark star crashes,
      pouring it's light into ashes
         Reason tatters,
      the forces tear loose from the axis
         Searchlight casting
      for faults in the clouds of delusion
         Shall we go
      you and I while we can
    through the transitive nightfall of diamonds
    
         Mirror shatters
      in formless reflections of matter
         Glass hand dissolving
      to ice petal flowers revolving
         Lady in velvet
      recedes in the nights of goodbye
         Shall we go
      you and I while we can 
    through the transitive nightfall of diamonds
    
    					Dark Star by The Grateful Dead
    
    Our Earth has been a Dark Star, Beth... but we are coming into the
    light.
    
    			CHANGE COME OVER
    
    Mary Stanley

re: .69  (Mary)

    
>    Every major intelligence agency on the planet monitors these notesfiles
>    and they have for awhile.
    
>    Sometimes specific people who represent them will come in to antagonize
>    or encourage us in certain directions in order to gain information or
>    to evaluate response.
 
	I'm not sure how to interpret this.  Is this a parody
	or something?  Or are you seriously suggesting that 
	intelligence agencies "monitor" DEC notes conferences?
	And that some noters are in fact crypto agents of these
	organizations?

	Joel

    RE .69,.70
    
    I wouldn't be surprised if there are "intelligence" agents inside DEC -
    we produce a lot of technology, and are of a type to be "subverted"
    (either bought or blackmailed).  There was a time (don't know if it is
    still true) that Russia was VERY HOT for DEC technology.  So there may
    be other country agents present to steal information, there might be
    our country agents to prevent the theft of information.
    
    Extending this, governments and their military are interested in
    psionics, for the wrong reasons (IMO).  Would they think to look here
    for information????  It's a possibility, but not a high probability.  I
    wouldn't dismiss it as being too absurd, though.
    
    For instance, some of us could be results of military experiments: my
    father, while doing his military time, was stationed at Aberdeen
    because he was a chemical engineer.  Who knows what they produced
    there.  My mother worked as a secretary for the scientists there
    working on neurological chemicals.  Their first child was born in the
    base hospital.  My father always jokingly asks my mother if she's sure
    they didn't give her anything "special" (he asks because, of the four of
    us, all girls, the shortest is 5'8", and the tallest is 6' - my parents
    are 5'11 (dad) and 5'6" (mom) - and he does know what was made there ).  
    Odds are, they didn't.  But this was during the 50's, when the 
    government did crap like that.
    
    Personally, I don't believe any of the above scenarios exist in this
    case.  For one, the government doesn't have the patience for
    experiments that require a lifetime to get results ;-)  And thinking
    about the possibilities seems like paranoid behavior to me.
    
    Beth

  It's reasonable to assume that assorted intelligence agencies monitor
  a sampling of our network activity, but it would be a bit egocentric
  to suppose (without substantial evidence) that *this* notesfile is
  being *extensively* monitored.

  If you want to get your phone monitored for the next few years, try
  this:

  dial: 01172+<any seven digits>

  If it rings, it will be ringing somewhere in Moscow. Even if it
  doesn't, you'll get on a list in Washington. 

  The phone book lists international access codes for many countries
  which can be direct-dialled, but not for the Soviet Union, even though
  it's been possible to direct dial many numbers there for quite a few
  years.

  Consider the possibility that the very sequence of characters in this
  reply probably triggered some of the microwave listening devices used
  by intelligence agencies. The fact that you read this message, even
  though you didn't know what was in it in advance, may have gotten you
  on a list. If you were *already* on a list, it's probably time to go
  underground :-). You laugh, but mark my words!

    Put me down as one who does not assume that intelligence
    agencies monitor DEC VAX Notes conferences.
    
    Towards what end?
    
    If they want to find out about DEC technology, price books and
    industry reports and sales brochures and etc. seem to me to
    be much easier (and less expensive) ways to dig out the info.
    
    Why, then, would intelligence agencies care what DECcies say
    about psi phenomena, abortion debates, or whatever?   IMO,
    I do not find the idea particularly plausible.
    
    Joel
    

    
    
>    If they want to find out about DEC technology, price books and
>    industry reports and sales brochures and etc. seem to me to
>    be much easier (and less expensive) ways to dig out the info.
>    
>    Why, then, would intelligence agencies care what DECcies say
>    about psi phenomena, abortion debates, or whatever?   IMO,
>    I do not find the idea particularly plausible.     
    
     ...you missed out agencies from other realities? Dark Brother might be
    watching, (to borrow from G Orwell) :^) :^)
    

    Of course, I have always been a strong supporter of all 
    intelligence agencies and think they have very wonderful
    people doing wonderful things...
    
    Joel
    

    re: .73 (Joel)
    
          I tend to agree.  Sounds too self-important to me.
    It's similar to all the alien abduction stories from which
    the individual says "I was chosen to tell the President..."
    (whatever.)  If an alien wanted to communicate with the 
    President, he/she/it would do so...it certainly wouldn't 
    find Joe Hick out in the boonies to do it for them.
          Nah, this conference is for those who use it and those
    who are amused by it or those who wish to discover particular 
    facets to someone in particular.  I think aliens of the ufo
    variety have more interesting things to do.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .76  (Frederick)
    
    We agree on something?  A first!  
    
    Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast...   ;^)
    
    Joel
    

    
    Then there are the people who can simply read thoughts and needn't
    bother with technology.
    
    Cindy

    re: 78
    
          If one becomes "Awakened" can one learn such a skill?
    
    Michelle

    
    RE: .78 Cindy
    
    I *knew* you were going to say that!!!!
    
    ;^)
    Carole

    :-) ... me too
    
    re Beth
    
    I don't know actually.  

    
    Carole and Mary - heh heh...(;^)
    
    Re.78 - Michelle, I can't read thoughts, so I can't answer your
    question from personal experience.  Can you be more specific in your
    question?  It's probably possible to learn anything, however it depends
    on why you want to learn it.  If it's to use the skill for the greatest
    good, then you will stand a far better chance of learning it, then if
    you are to use it for selfish gains.  
    
    Cindy

    re: .78
    
    Michelle, IMO, most people have psionic/psychic abilities to one degree
    or another, but are unaware for one reason or another.  Awakening helps
    because you become much more aware of many things, including these
    "other" senses.  Some people that aren't awakened may still be aware of 
    their abilities because it is a strong abilitiy (due to genetics, perhaps). 
    For instance, I have memories of empathic episodes from as early as
    first grade.  I wonder how many people use psionic abilities and don't
    even recognize them as such.  Especially in this culture which treats
    it as science fiction and fantasy.  Without feedback, sometimes you
    can't see the results of your efforts (although with guidence, you can
    begin to see more).
    
    Some people also theorize that, with psionics, puberty, all of the
    chemical and emotional changes occurring, brings out latent abilities.  I
    personally have never heard of such a case, but many stories
    use it (the Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Firestarter, and
    Carrie, for example), but it is possible - emotional upheaval can have
    an affect on awareness, and this is from personal experience.  My
    awakening (the major part of it) occurred under fire - emotional stress
    from a breakup, plus psychic assaults at the same time.  I am still
    awakening.
    
    Beth

    We are all still awakening, Beth.
    
    Most of us are "wild talents" ... totally unaware of it, totally
    unconscious of what we are doing.
    
    It's very difficult to learn to control it if you don't get any
    feedback... just like any other skill.  You have to be able to gauge
    your progress by evaluating the results of your efforts.
    
    Mary

    Er, Mary, while we're at it, I am still curious to hear you
    expand upon your statements in .69, to wit:
    
    "Every major intelligence agency on the planet monitors these
    notesfiles and they have for awhile."
    
    			and
    
    "Sometimes specific people who represent them will come in to antagonize
    or encourage us in certain directions in order to gain information or
    to evaluate response."
    
    Now the first statement is clear enough.  You believe that spies
    are spying on us.
    
    As for the second statement, if you believe that "specific people"
    here "represent" them, pray, who are these people?  Surely this is
    a serious offense, isn't it?  Misrepresenting your status to
    Digital, misuse of proprietary information, violations of privacy,
    and so on.  Pretty low down stuff if you ask me, and here you are
    accusing fellow employees, in effect, of being in the pay of
    the CIA or KGB or whatever.
    
    So, I do think it would be appropriate to hear a little more about
    this, so to better be able to evaluate the veracity of these
    claims.
    
    Joel
    
    
    

Note 1515.85          
RIPPLE::GRANT_JO 
    
>    Now the first statement is clear enough.  You believe that spies
>    are spying on us.
    
    Yep... I prefer to think of it as monitoring. :-)
    
>    As for the second statement, if you believe that "specific people"
>    here "represent" them, pray, who are these people?  Surely this is
>    a serious offense, isn't it?  
    
    I don't know of any laws against it but it's sort of like the 500 pound
    canary... I'm certainly not going to be the one to tell him where to 
    perch.
    
    >Pretty low down stuff if you ask me, and here you are
    >accusing fellow employees, in effect, of being in the pay of
    >the CIA or KGB or whatever.
    
    Well, I don't think of it as pretty low down stuff myself... I've grown
    rather fond of them.  They just don't seem to know any other way to
    work... old habits die hard, you know?
    
    >So, I do think it would be appropriate to hear a little more about
    >this, so to better be able to evaluate the veracity of these
    >claims.
    
    Gee,... I think I hear my mother calling me, Joel. :-)
    
    
    Mary

    
    Besides, Joel, if we blew their covers, then they might become useful
    productive contributing members of DEC and society.  Heaven forbid.
    
    *Somebody* has to keep track of the people who do the real work and
    lead real lives.  I mean like, if nobody did, then all heck might break 
    loose. Disorder, disarray, chaos...
    
    And those of us who are on to them would lose one of our main sources
    of amusement. It's kind of like walking around Beacon Hill in Boston,
    watching all the politicians dressed in expensive suits carrying 
    expensive briefcases and looking at their watches trying to look
    important...(;^)  I take all my out-of-town guests there just to see
    that very phenomenon.  And people like Dave Barry and Mark Russell have
    made entire careers on poking fun at such things.
    
    So, mums the word.
    
    Cindy

    re: .86, .87
    
    I see.  In other words, there really isn't any substance
    to these claims, right?
    
    Joel
    

    
    Just lump them in with the crop symbols... 

    By "them" do you refer to the DEC employees who are allegedly
    crypto-intelligence agencies?
    
    If so, why would we lump them in with the patterns in the grain
    fields?
    
    What is at issue there is `why', not `whether.'
    
    What is at issue here is `whether.'
    
    Apples and oranges.
    
    Joel
    

Note 1515.90          
RIPPLE::GRANT_JO 
    
>    By "them" do you refer to the DEC employees who are allegedly
>    crypto-intelligence agencies?
    
     By "them", I refer to "these claims".
     
>    What is at issue there is `why', not `whether.'
 
     Why is obvious, Joel.  The DOD has 50 million dollars to spend on
     paranormal research, and the crop symbols indicate that some very
     strange things are happening on our lovely blue planet.
        
>    What is at issue here is `whether.'
    
     To you maybe... not to anyone with any psionic sensitivity or talent.
        
     Why does it bother you so much that they are watching us, Joel?  Or
     does it bother you that we know it?
    
     Mary

    re: .91 (Mary)
    
    If you call asking for some evidence to back very emphatically
    stated claims to be an overreaction, fine by me.
    
    You say the DOD has 50 million dollars to spend on paranormal
    research.  Is this in fact the case?  Your sources, please.
    I hope it is true.
    
    In the case of the crop designs, no one disputes that there are
    in fact designs in the crops.  The question is how they got
    there.
    
    In the case of spying on DEC VAX Notes conferences by every
    intelligence agency on the planet, aided by DEC employees
    gaining employment by means of fraud and misrepresentation,
    there is very much a question of whether such a situation
    in fact exists.  This question is raised, not only by myself,
    but by others (see earlier replies) not generally associated
    with "skeptical" views.
    
    If I gave any credibility whatsoever to your fantastic claims
    I would react appropriately.  I would present the situation
    to DEC personnel and to Corporate Security management and ask
    that they take immediate action.  But given the lack of any
    credible indication that such violations are taking place,
    I am making the appropriate reaction, namely, asking the 
    claimant to come forth with something to back the claim.
    
    You have yet to give us anything of the sort, so we can perhaps
    move on, and file this under "hastily spoken misstatements
    not meant to be taken literally."
    
    Joel
    

    
    File it under whatever you want, Joel.
    
    But some of us are aware of to whom we speak when we speak in the
    notesfiles.... and we have been for a long time.
    
    Would you prefer we just shut up?  Do you want us to pretend that
    things are different than they are?
    
    Why are you so upset about it anyway?  We have nothing to hide.
    They knew what we were before we did ourselves (some of us) and
    they believed in us when no one else did.  And they care about
    what happens when others care only about themselves.
    I feel better having them around frankly.
    
    Does it screw up the report if the lab rats know they are being
    watched or something?  
    
    What kind of psions would we be if we didn't know?  If you want us
    to follow certain rules, then you have to tell us what they are.  If
    you (the Royal you) want to conduct research in public notesfiles, then
    what comes up will be public information... thats pretty obvious, isn't 
    it?
    
    There is a lot of research money involved... I imagine it breeds a lot of
    competition among the white coats.  
    
    You can go ahead and forget I said it, ... file it under misspoken
    statements and put it aside because I intend to offer no proof ... 
    
    ...but I know and so do some of the others... and don't think for a minute 
    that we don't because we do.
    
    
    Mary

    Re: spies and such
    
    Joel, Mary is referring to a form of personal proof that can not be
    offered because it is based upon the use of psionic abilities (correct,
    Mary?).  Those of us who have knowledge gained in this way KNOW but can
    offer no proof acceptable to those who don't KNOW.  It does not make
    their information false, just unprovable.  Over time, and with
    research, other sources can be found to verify this.  But, if you KNEW
    someone was a spy just because you KNEW, would you take it to
    Personnel and Security?  Would they believe you?  Would you denounce
    them publically and risk a libel or slander suite? (I doubt a court of
    law would accept psionic knowledge as permissable evidence ;-)
    
    Not having been in this note file for as long as some of the others, I
    haven't seen the evidence that Mary has to indicate that we are being
    watched.  I don't discount it entirely, but the probability is not
    exactly high.
    
    And, Joel, methinks thou dost protest too much :-)
    
    Beth

re: .94 (Beth)

	In the present case, the naming of names would be a
	start to providing evidence.  This is an unfalsifiable
	situation only if we take the "who needs evidence?"
	approach.

	And, Beth, I think you protest too little.



re: .93  (Mary)

    
>    File it under whatever you want, Joel.
 
	Hmmmm...
   
>    But some of us are aware of to whom we speak when we speak in the
>    notesfiles.... and we have been for a long time.
 
	Who are "us"?  To whom do you speak?  Name names, please.
   
>    Would you prefer we just shut up?  Do you want us to pretend that
>    things are different than they are?
 
	Who are "we"?  IMO, you already *are* pretending that
	things are different than they are.
   
>    Why are you so upset about it anyway?  We have nothing to hide.
 
	Who says I'm upset?  I think this is fun.

	If you have nothing to hide, then stop hiding.  Name names.

>    They knew what we were before we did ourselves (some of us) and
>    they believed in us when no one else did.  And they care about
>    what happens when others care only about themselves.
>    I feel better having them around frankly.
 
	What "happens" can happen to onseself or to others.

	Again, who are these people?
   
>    Does it screw up the report if the lab rats know they are being
>    watched or something?  
 
	It can.  But are you comparing your role to that of a
	lab rat, i.e., a subject of study?  
   
>    What kind of psions would we be if we didn't know?
  
	Pretty typical, I should think.

>    If you want us
>    to follow certain rules, then you have to tell us what they are.  If
>    you (the Royal you) want to conduct research in public notesfiles, then
>    what comes up will be public information... thats pretty obvious, isn't 
>    it?
 
	If you want rules, you must say what the game is.

	Again, who are the Royal (or even commoner) "you" we are
	discussing here?
   
	BTW - just what *is* it you believe is being studied?
	If you are a psion, what paranormal abilities do you have?
	Come to think of it, since you seem to believe that 
	legitimate paranormal research can be conducted via
	VAX Notes conferences (and for all I know, it can) why
	don't we actually set up some experiments?  Not unprecedented
	in this conference, to be sure.

>    There is a lot of research money involved... I imagine it breeds a lot of
>    competition among the white coats.  
 
	The 50 million?  Again, where are your sources?  And, again,
	I hope it is true.  
   
>    You can go ahead and forget I said it, ... file it under misspoken
>    statements and put it aside because I intend to offer no proof ... 
 
	You intend to repeat the claims and you intend to offer no
	proof.  But if you really believed this, your absolute duty
	would be to report this potentially illegal and quite surely
	unethical activity to the appropriate authorities at DEC.
	While you may not mind being studied by Royal You's I am
	certain that DEC management, in various departments, would
	have some serious problems with such behavior.

	So, please, why not do your DEC duty (this *is* a DEC
	supported resource) and turn the scoundrels in.  They'll
	only get what they deserve.
   
>    ...but I know and so do some of the others... and don't think for a minute 
>    that we don't because we do.
 
	Who are these others?  And, sorry, but unless you give us some
	reason to believe you, we (non-Royal, meant to include those
	in this string who have expressed doubt - we doubters need
	no help from royalty, you see) will think for more than
	a minute that you ... don't ... .

Joel

    Joel,
    
    Since when has the law stopped the DOD from doing anything?  Also,
    since when does a study have to make sense for the DOD or some other
    government agency to do it?
    
    Remember, this is the same DOD that, in the 50's, released toxic gases
    in the subways of NYC and then observed the sickened citizens
    staggering out, so they could study the effects of toxic gases released
    in subways.  (No, I can't remember where I read this, but I remember
    that it was a reputable source.  And I've read of other disclosures
    more recently, of the DOD exposing people to one thing or another --
    without their knowledge or consent -- to study effects for "security
    reasons."  I.E., in case the Soviets or whoever the current bad guy is
    does it.  As if it would make a difference to the victim.  Makes me
    feel a lot better knowing that it was the US gov that poisoned
    me...ha!ha!ha!).
    
    Also remember that this is the same government that is currently
    spending a lot of money to study the methane gas released from farting
    cows!  (I suppose so they can blame the greenhouse effect on cows
    instead of cars and factories, and thereby justify maintaining the status
    quo...)
    
    Also remember that Digital's products are used at the heart of many
    weapons and nuclear power plants.  This makes them (and Digital) a 
    matter of national security.  I hadn't thought about this before, 
    but on reflection, I would be surprised if the government _didn't_ 
    have some undercover people working here.  
    
    I find it hard to believe that they would be monitoring us.  On the
    other hand, they spend a lot more money doing things that seem a lot
    sillier.
    
    Mary                                       

    re: .96 (Mary - the other Mary ;^)  )
    
    I'm not so sure about toxic gases being released into NYC
    subways, but I've no doubt various quasi-secret
    U.S. gov't agencies have done some very unpleasant
    things.
    
    As for what secrets DOD could gain about our products from
    reading DEJAVU is anyone's guess.  My guess is: pretty close
    to zero.
    
    In regards to studies making sense, sure - how much did we spend
    on determining that kids fall off trikes because they turn
    the wheel too sharply?  $150K or something like that?  (it
    was one of Proxmire's Golden Fleece awards)
    
    But it they want to study trikes, they will probably do so
    more effectively studying trikes, rather than DEC VAX Notes
    conferences about trikes, if you know what I mean.
    
    Joel
    

    Trying to get back on the topic:
    
    Re: .41
    
    I understand the idea that one teacher can only take you so far
    because we each follow a different path.  The paths may be
    merged for a while, but ultimately we travel different ways.  However,
    good teachers can help you even when the paths are not joined at that
    time.  I had one like that, but he is in Georgia, and I had to move to
    New Hampshire for my job.
    
    I have seen many references to people who teach healing.  And there was
    the one reference to the Way of the Warrior (or something like that).
    What other types of paths and teachers are out there?  How does one
    connect up with a warrior teacher (which is more what I seek, for
    reasons and choices made with full understanding)?  Is the warrior
    teachings only American Indian, or are there others?
    
    Beth

    Oh, and Re: .97
    
    >As for what secrets DOD could gain about our products from
    >reading DEJAVU is anyone's guess.
    
    I don't think DEJAVU would be used as a source of DEC secrets, but
    perhaps as a source of who might be leaking DEC secrets - do you have
    radical (i.e. "anti-American") ideas, or are you bribable or
    blackmailable.  The US doesn't need to steal our ideas - they buy them
    or claim them ;-).  The monitoring would be under the guise of
    protecting national security.
    
    Now, having found this notesfile, it is possible that the DOD, or other
    US agency (or European, or whatever country, since this is available
    elsewhere), reported the topic back and it was decided to monitor for
    other information as well.  This ignores, of course, that a lot of this
    information is available in many books, or in courses taught by various
    gurus, etc.  But what is not available in these other places is a list
    of people with the skills that may be "useful" to the government ("We
    can apply this pressure here to get so-and-so to do this for us, even
    though normally they would have nothing to do with us") - this assumes
    that governments are very seriously interested in the applications of
    psionics and psychic abilities (not out of the question).
    
    Beth

Note 1515.95          
RIPPLE::GRANT_JO 
    
    I will never, never, never name names because now I have to protect
    them from dweebs who might run to personnel. :-)
 
>	Who are "we"?  IMO, you already *are* pretending that
>	things are different than they are.
    
    Well thats fine for you to say... who knows how things are?
       
>	If you have nothing to hide, then stop hiding.  Name names.

    Never, never, never...  I don't do names although Joel is a nice
    name :-)
    
>	It can.  But are you comparing your role to that of a
>	lab rat, i.e., a subject of study?  
    
    Well it certainly feels that way.
       
>	Pretty typical, I should think.

    Really?  Gee, you know more about this than I do.
    
>	If you want rules, you must say what the game is.

    We seem to be making it up as we go along. :-)
    
>	BTW - just what *is* it you believe is being studied?
>	If you are a psion, what paranormal abilities do you have?
>	Come to think of it, since you seem to believe that 
>	legitimate paranormal research can be conducted via
>	VAX Notes conferences (and for all I know, it can) why
>	don't we actually set up some experiments?  Not unprecedented
>	in this conference, to be sure.

       We ARE conducting experiments... for heaven sake's Joel.. pay 
    attention.
    
>	The 50 million?  Again, where are your sources?  And, again,
>	I hope it is true.  
    
     The USENET actually.... I believe it was in sci.skeptic (interestingly
    enough :-)
       
>	You intend to repeat the claims and you intend to offer no
>	proof.  But if you really believed this, your absolute duty
>	would be to report this potentially illegal and quite surely
>	unethical activity to the appropriate authorities at DEC.
>	While you may not mind being studied by Royal You's I am
>	certain that DEC management, in various departments, would
>	have some serious problems with such behavior.

    Well, I'm not exactly one who is driven by "absolute duty", you know
    what I mean?   I've spent most of my life feeling abject contempt for
    stool pigeons and busybodies who felt it their absolute duty to report
    potentially illegal activity to the appropriate authorities.
    So now I feel as if I should protect them from the stupid and well-
    intentioned .... at least they seem to know what they are doing...
    unlike most of us.
        
>	So, please, why not do your DEC duty (this *is* a DEC
>	supported resource) and turn the scoundrels in.  They'll
>	only get what they deserve.
    
    :-) Oh man... you're a riot! :-)  I'll bet you've got the number of
    the Just-Say-No hotline tatooed on your wrist just in case you spot some
    kid getting high behind the drugstore too, right?
       
    Ok then... think that I don't, Joel. :-)  I retract everything.  Now
    I know why they are so secretive.. too many dweebs in the world (no
    reference to yourself.. I mean the eternal archtype dweeb).

    I made it up, ok?  Just forget it and I will too.
    
    Mary

re: .60 DSSDEV::GRIFFIN 

>    I have seen some things about our future, and some of it involves the
>    rest of humanity:  a tragedy will occur, both physical and psychic war. 
>    This has been seen by others than myself, and we all feel it will occur
>    soon (a few years from now).  
    
	Yeah, the tragedy is we're probably going to have another four
	years under a Republican administration whose idea of an energy
	policy is to inflate your tires...

re .69
VERGA::STANLEY 
    
>    Every major intelligence agency on the planet monitors these notesfiles
>    and they have for awhile.
>    
>    Sometimes specific people who represent them will come in to antagonize
>    or encourage us in certain directions in order to gain information or
>    to evaluate response.

	There's a man I often see wandering around DC, mostly near 
	the White House.  He wears a big sandwich-board sign that
	claims various government agencies are reading our minds 
	with radio waves.  I could probably get you his address 
	if you'd like to compare notes.

	-Art 	(Who, with clipboard in hand, is waiting to evaluate
		 your response.)

    :-)