Conference hydra::dejavu

Sure, I really enjoyed the Castenada series myself.  When I got to "The Eagle's
Gift", I went back and reread everything from "The Teachings of Don Juan" on up
just to refamiliarize myself.  These books had the greatest impact on my
esoteric outlook.  I don't know if they're true or not either but that doesn't
negate the enjoyment I got from them.

		Dave

re: tonal and nagual

I meant to reply to this sooner and was reminded by your sign in note.  Anyway,
it is my understanding that tonal refers to anything in this physical world. 
Nagual is the unknown or things outside of this world.  I'll have to go back to
the book to refresh my memory of Don Juan's explaination.

		Dave

Thanks for your response Dave. I had also forgotten to reply to this note. I
talked to someone by phone about it and the answers were quite similar to what
you wrote.
	tonal - thing in the physical world that attention is focused on
	nagual - all of the other possibilities there are.
		 
I am fascinated with Carlos "seeing" people as "luminous eggs". How is 
this done? I know that they used the drugs on him first because of his 
sturborness. Also what is meant by the concept of non-doing? I think it
has something to do with not pre-conceiving?

    re: .4
    
>>> what is meant by the concept of non-doing? I think it has something to
>>> do with not pre-conceiving?
    
    
    Doing is the process of focusing the will to assemble a physical
    reality.  The natural laws of the physical reality are a direct
    consequence of the "doing" of all of the lumious beings who assemble in
    it.
    
    The process of "not-doing" is the defocusing of the will from a
    physical reality and results in a shift (usually subtle) in the
    assemblage point.  This shift in the assemblage point is referred to as
    "stopping the world" in Casteneda's books. When this partial detachment
    from the reality occurs, the laws of the reality are suspended directly
    in proportion to the "size" of the shift.
    
    
>>> I am fascinated with Carlos "seeing" people as "luminous eggs". How is
>>> this done?
    
    Luminous eggs are seen by doing the "seeing" technique exactly as
    described in "Tales of Power". As a hint: the are not "egg" shaped.
    
    
    

Thanks for your answer. As I continue to read, I just keep on generating more
and more questions. I am about 3/4 of the way thru THe Eagle's Gift and I all
confused. I could follow about half the book but now I am lost. Carlos seems
to be dreaming and remembering back to when he met the Silvio Manuel and other
members of the Nagual's party. I don't understand this. Why would he remember
now and not back then(when it happened) and out it in his earlier books? Does
it have something to do with the right side/left side teachings? Also, what is
meant by dreaming in this context? It doesn't seem to be the kind of dreaming 
I am used to. He seems to not be doing it when he is sleeping.

Sam

    I have read his books many times over. I recommend that you read all
    the books through the last one, "Power of Silence." Power of Silence is
    more clear. Carlos was sorting a lot of things out for himself in the
    earlier books, although there is a lot of useful information in them if
    you can side step Carlos' own obsessions and focus on the messages from
    don Juan, etc..
    
    Also, try reading "Hands of Light" by Barbara Brennen for information
    on the luminous cocoon - aura. Her new book coming out in the fall -
    "Light Emerging" - talks of levels beyond the aura: the hara line -
    ie. the level of intention; and the core star - ie. the level of
    localized individuated god or essence. In my opinion, the aura is the
    level for mastering awareness and the hara line is the level for
    mastering intent.
    
    I believe the nagual and the tonal are used to describe the nature of
    our self identity. We tend to define ourselves with our "inventory of
    the mind." The nagual is a way of pointing to reality beyond our
    rational/linear mind and inventory, that is available to us when we
    learn to silence the mind (internal dialogue) and go beyond our
    self-definitions. It is the un-named reality.
    
    I got the impression, from Power of Silence, that their might be 2
    more books to cover the remaining "abstract cores." I also heard a
    rumor that Carlos was on a plane to South America that crashed. Any
    substance to these rumors?
    
    Wayne

    re: .7 (Wayne)
    
    The luminous egg and the aura are two different layers, not the same
    thing.  The aura is actually a maifestation of the "dreaming body" in
    Casteneda's terminology.
    
    Kevin

    Kevin (.8),
    
    I agree with Wayne's terminology - the whole 7? layers being the aura.
    The 'dreaming body' I would suspect is the astral body.
    
    Ro
    

    
    
    Or the etheric body.  I was never quite sure what it was when he
    referred to his 'double' actually doing things and taking action.
    
    Carole

You people have lost me in the last few notes. I am a beginer in this area.
Can someone explain auras? What is the 'dreaming body'? How is a luminous
egg different than an aura? What is maent by crossing the eyes in reference 
to 'Seeing'?

Sam

    re .9, .10
    
    The statement made in .8 is based upon my apprenticeship in Warrior
    traditions that used the same terminology as Carlos. 
    
    As part of my apprenticeship, I rode the web and explored the layers of
    the body, on a detailed basis, and I carefully noted the
    interconnections and the order in which they occur.  The statements
    which I made in .8 are correct based upon the terminology of the
    Southwestern traditions in which Carlos trained. The etherial body and
    the astral body are not the luminous egg as alluded to in .9 and .10. 
    I have seen all three, and they are different.
    
    To avoid getting into a rathole, I will be happy to discuss the
    difference, offline, with anyone who has direct experience seeing the
    luminous egg and differs with my opinion.

    
    RE: .12
    
    Hi there,
    
    My .10 was only a suggestion.  I don't know what the luminous egg
    is in relation to our subtle bodies.  If you know, please share it
    here.  Can you tell us what the luminous egg is?  Can you tell us
    what the "double" is?  Do they have *any* relationship to the astral
    body or any of the other subtle bodies?
    
    Thanks,
    Carole
    

    RE: 12
    
    I, too, would be VERY interested in whatever information you could
    share
    regarding this process.  Did you have a guide - (maybe you discussed
    that and I missed it), is this something we can do by ourselves?  I've
    only managed to do lucid dreaming from reading his books.
    
    Would REALLY appreciate some pointers from someone whose had 
    actual experience!
    
    Thanks!
    
    Mary
    

    re: .13 & .14 (Mary & Carole, I think?)
    
    The process of "seeing" these layers and precisely defining them was
    one of the last steps that I had to do for my benefactor. This all
    occurred as part of a 5 year apprenticeship which I completed in
    November of 1989, in a tradition which is simply called "Warriorship".
    
    My benefactor was N'dolka, a Warrior from the Tucson area.  He was
    awakened by Bees Koon (Phillip Cassedore), the late spiritual leader of
    the San Carlos Tineh (Apache), and by Don Felice, the warrior trainer
    of the Aymura Indians of South America.
    
    Learning the layers of the body is something that one can practice
    alone.  However, it is not the important part of the path.  The
    important part of the path, just as it was in Carlos' case, is to
    become "human" by stopping personal indulgence.  The "seeing" of the
    layers is simply one of a series of empowerment activities that a
    student undertakes.  It is a "parlor trick" for lack of a better
    description.
    
    If you are interested in the things that I studied, I can be reached
    offline at the above mail address.  If you are interested, you can
    reach N'dolka at the following:
    
    N'dolka
    c/o Warriorship
    Box 11801
    Tucson, Az.
    
    I suggest you reference my name (Tagliato) and this notes conference in
    your letter to him.  It will help him to know that he can get in touch
    with me if he has any questions on the things we have discussed in this
    note.
    
    To the rest of the readers... Sorry for the divergence from the topic
    at hand!
    
    Y'elan,
    Kevin
    
    p.s.  all of the usual dislaimers apply... I do not profit in any way
    (except personal spiritual growth) from any association with the above
    organization, and the address above is provided solely for the
    information of the readers of this conference, etc. etc. etc.

   .re .8, .11 Hi Kevin.

   If you read the complete description of the human energy field - HEF -
   (aura) in Barbara Brennan's book, I think it could qualify as the luminous
   cocoon per Carlos Castanada's descriptions, although I admit I am
   speculating. In Barbara's book there is a description, of the 7 layers of
   the HEF. The outer layer (7th) looks like an egg shape, almost with a skin
   about 1/2 inch thick. The astral body would be one layer, 4th layer, of the
   HEF and would correspond to the dreaming body or astral body.

   Seeing, as I understand it, would correspond to High Sense Perception in
   Barbara's book. My belief is that if Barbara Brennan is somewhat scientific
   in her approach, ie. tries to be objective about what she sees and knows,
   then she will come up with similar results as other serious spiritual
   disciplines (.vs. religions). Hence I feel comfortable in equating the two,
   but I would prefer to be able to see for myself. I am particularly
   fascinated with the "idea" of the assemblage point and as of yet, have not
   see a clear corollary in other traditions (other than "states of mind").

   My own practice has not focused that much on the HEF. ZEN tends to down
   play most phenomenon and visions and focus on clearing your mind. That is
   also why I feel Zen, in comparison, which focuses almost exclusively on the
   hara point, corresponds to the hara line that Barbara Brennan talks about
   in her soon-to-be-release new book. The hara line - the level of intention
   - is a level (dimension) deeper than the HEF and no longer at the level of
   personality. At least, that is my understanding. According to Barbara, most
   Americans have their hara lines bent and disconnected from the hara point
   (place of power 1-2 inches below the navel) and the seat of spiritual
   longing (just above the heart chakra). They have lost their spiritual
   purpose and tend to discredit most true spiritual activities. (They are in
   spiritual pain.) I believe, and again I am speculating, that reconnecting
   with intent (Castanada) is the same as realigning the hara line (Brennan).
   Barbara said that people she has observed who do serious spiritual practice
   tend to have a straight and connected hara line.

   I am always interested in spiritual paths. Carlos Castanada's books have
   resonated with me long before Zen did. I prefer a path that can integrate
   as much as possible. I have seen very good teachers try to discredit
   another's path (especially within Zen and Christianity - the two I have had
   the most exposure to). Maybe they had good reasons, I don't know. Who is to
   say what is right for an individual - power decides right? All we do is
   learn to acquiesce. At some point you have to believe in your own
   connection.

   Any info you can give, off-line or on-line I would greatly appreciate. I am
   most interested in practical experience .vs. technical knowledge.

   Thanks, 
   Wayne   

    re: .16 (Wayne)
    
    
>>> If you read the complete description of the human energy field - HEF -
>>> (aura) in Barbara Brennan's book, I think it could qualify as the
>>> luminous cocoon per Carlos Castanada's descriptions...
    
    I have read her book and studied it for comparison. In my experience
    and in the terminaolgy of S/W Indian Warriorship, they are different.
    
    
>>> My belief is that if Barbara Brennan is somewhat scientific in her
>>> approach, ie. tries to be objective about what she sees and knows, then
>>> she will come up with similar results as other serious spiritual
>>> disciplines 
    
    Agreed.  In fact the pictures she uses and most of the text agree with
    my experience (which occurred before I read the book.  
    
    
>>> I am particularly fascinated with the "idea" of the assemblage point
>>> and as of yet, have not see a clear corollary in other traditions 
    
    The assemblage point is a literal physical point of focus in the
    luminous egg.  It is clearly releated to a space-time intersection in
    modern physics, particularly superstring theory.
    
    
>>> most Americans have their hara lines bent and disconnected from the
>>> hara point (place of power 1-2 inches below the navel) and the seat of
>>> spiritual longing (just above the heart chakra). They have lost their
>>> spiritual purpose and tend to discredit most true spiritual activities. 
    
    Yes, or to put it in Warriorship terms, they have lost the direct
    connection to God.

    I think we found it again though.
    
    Mary

    re: .18
    
    If you are referring to the connection with God, and to most Americans,
    I disagree based upon the observable evidence as defined by my
    tradition.
    
    We are all part of God, but not all people are connected back to God.
    In fact most are not!
    
    Y'elan
    Kevin

    I'm not familiar with your tradition, Kevin... but you may be right
    that not all Americans are connected back to God yet...  but a link
    has been made... and from that link shall grow a whole new reality.
    
    From one little ethernet shall many clusters grow :-).
    
    God loves the American people and all of humanity... I know that to 
    be true... and they will know it too in time... as soon as they
    wake up to whom and what they truly are... as soon as they find their
    place and purpose in this mystery we call existence.
    
    Mary