Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    
    This subject,I feel,relates to ALL. I,as a world citizen,am expressing
    deep concerns and beliefs here. I know this topic could go into many
    different directions,and,it is my desire that,discussion would be
    around the general idea,and,not specific details about how it could be
    done,or,problems,etc. The idea,the desire,the need,the humanity of it
    all,is what I see a need to express. If there is enough people who feel
    the same,it could be the beginning of something great! I believe our
    survival,and,that of the Earths,depend upon it! There just needs to be
    enough movement from the People! What is your feelings about the
    idea,and,do you believe it is possible?
    
    Peace,
    
    Michael
    

    I know it is possible Michael. .... though (as usual) the way is
    fraught with danger.  Thats never stopped us before.  I say we go for
    it.
    
    Mary Stanley

    Dear Friends,
    
    	I humbly implore you to have a thughtful look at 457.19 through
    457.24.
    
           			Regards,
    				  Ron

    And in any case, my best wishes to the newly
    re-united Germany.

    
    
    Yes,the unification of Germany is a good move in the right direction.
    
    There is a lot of independant groups with a connection to the process
    
    of World Unification,what needs to happen is the pulling together of 
    
    these units,as one. It must be a movement,and,not a new "organization",
    
    "group",etc. Although religous training and beliefs can be a foundation
    
    for the moral laws,it cannot become a "religous",movement,since,it will
    
    include ALL,whether you believe in GOD,or,a specific Diety,or not,will
    
    not bear on the overall objective. It must be free of all
    
    bias,prejudice, (a TALL order),and,must respect the individual.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .5, Michael,
    
>It must be a movement,and,not a new "organization",
>    "group",etc. Although religous training and beliefs can be a foundation
>    for the moral laws,it cannot become a "religous",movement,since,it will
>    include ALL,whether you believe in GOD,or,a specific Diety,or not,will
>    not bear on the overall objective. 
    
    I think this is an excellent point.  From my own experience, there does
    not seem to be a *necessity* for all beliefs to be in common in order to 
    form a durable, effective working relationship.  That might help, but
    I don't think it should be a sticking point.
    
    	The only beliefs that seem to be essential to have in common
    are a belief that the other side can be trusted in some degree to
    honor their committments, and a belief that there is a mutually
    acceptable solution somewhere to be found.   
    
    Most problems seem to stem from intolerance to other views, and weak, 
    untrusting working relationships between world leaders, sometimes 
    amplified and supported by cultural patterns, rather than from differences 
    in views or religious ideas themselves.  IMO, they are just used as 
    (powerful) symbols for the mistrust that already exists.   
    
    The same with common economic systems, they facilitate the transfer of 
    trust by permitting the more direct transfer of value.
    
    And for some reason, not intending to refer to any idea in particular,
    I tend to have an initial strong distrust reaction for propositions 
    that seek to have everyone share the same religious or philosophical 
    beliefs, as beautiful as the sentiment might be, as that is historically 
    a common way to gain control of large numbers of people for the benefit 
    of a few, and, I propose, is not neccessary to ensure world peace and
    efficient world trade, and is even potentially detrimental to the human 
    spirit, which thrives on the tension of conflict.
    
    	kindest regards,
    
    	>Todd>

    I agree Todd

    
    
    Todd,
    
       You hit on another good point around trust,the gaining of power,
    
    Money,the whole competitive structure itself is detrimental to the
    
    achievement of the goal. If it is to work,We will have to stop
    
    competing,and,start cooperating,sharing ideas,resources. In the kind
    
    of World where this exists,we will have no need for money,which defeats
    
    the need for beating the other guy down,obtaining power,which leads to
    
    the goal of obtaining money. Just think of it,all the computer
    
    companies working together,to improve the World Community! What a 
    
    powerfull tool for good. Just think,we could grow plenty of food for
    
    the whole World,get the machines out of the showrooms,and,into the
    
    fields. Full employment,no debts,solving the invironmental problems,
    
    free education,medical treatment,etc,etc,etc........What a nice place
    
    to LIVE!
    
    
    
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

  re .4 (John)

Today there is one big party in all of Germany.

I am happy for it!  

May this set an example for the world.

Deutschland, Du liegst mir am Herzen
Paul 

    
    Paul,
    
      It must be a terrific feeling,whats happening there! It is a great
    
    example,and,if it can be done on that scale,then it can on a grander
    
    one as well! Unite for Germans,unite for all!
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    It will happen! Look at all the changes that have been going on in
    Europe over the last years ... 
    
    Keine Mauern mehr, no walls anywhere !!!
    
    Karin

    What I've been thinking as I've read this note and
    its replies is that this integration is happening and
    is more-or-less unstopable.

    The world *is* waking up to its connectedness.

    But like all sleepers, we are a bit stiff, our eyes
    are bleary and maybe even we're a bit hung over from
    a bit of overindulgence.

    I'm not sure that another group is needed - just keep
    working on yourself and your relation to god/universe and
    things will inevitably work out.

    John D.

	It seems to me that both working on ourselves and together
   is needed to build this new world of peace, conscience and
   happiness for all beings.

	It will happen ... we have the tools

	Love, Rita.

    
    
    The root of much evil,is money. We've heard that before,right? Yes,but
    it is so true. Money,power,corrupts. We continue to do things to each
    other over such foolish reasons. You see it every day in the news.
    Monetary systems must cease to exist,if,we are going to survive. The
    aggressive nature of Men,must be overcome. We must see more and more
    women in top positions all over the world. It can no longer be a mans
    world,the true peacemakers and compassioned people are for the most
    part,female. There are men who are also,but,not near as much as the
    women of this world. We must elect women to high office,if things are
    to change for the better. We must work towards disarmament,worldwide,
    and,focus on human issues. God is getting pretty tired of us continuing
    to do the same things to each other,and,nature. If it wasnt for the
    good of this world,he would have destroyed it a long time
    ago,and,started fresh. It doesnt matter to God how you get involved,as
    long as its to help your sisters and brothers to have a better life. He
    needs our help. He needs us to stop focusing on self,and,turn to help
    those who need us. He wants us to stop arguing about him,and,start
    doing what He asked us to do. All people of the World know Him in their
    hearts,if they stop to feel it. His message has been heard through-out
    the Earth,reguardless of your belief system. He wants us to stop using
    His name to justify ourselves,and,get on with his work. 
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    RE: <<< Note 1369.14 by DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE >>>
    
    
    >The root of much evil,is money. We've heard that before,right? Yes,but
    >it is so true. Money,power,corrupts. 

    Money and power are tools for humans to use as to how they see fit
    (i.e. free-will choice).  Humans corrupt, not tools...

    I think the big problem is that people are not taking personal 
    responsibility for their actions, are not acting instead of re-acting,
    and are not following the Golden Rule.

    I'm really tired of how people are blaming everything and everyone but 
    themselves for their actions, and just wanted to mention this....

    Linda

    >        ... as long as its to help your sisters and brothers to have a
    >        better life...
    >    ... All people of the World know Him in their
    >    hearts,if they stop to feel it. His message has been heard through-out
    >    the Earth,reguardless of your belief system. 
    
    Nicely said !   Seems more and more true every day, for some reason.
    
    >Todd>

    
    
    Linda,
    
        I do agree with what you say about free will,and,the golden rule.
    We all have the freedom to choose. I just believe,that,Money,and,power
    are tied somewhat together,and,that,its misuse,is directly linked to
    much of the suffering in the World. Now,what would happen if all the
    money was useless? An interesting subject to ponder on. Todd,thanks for
    the kind words. It does start with each one of us,thats how a seed can
    become a tree,an oak of fine stature. Each one of us can fertilize that
    seed by spreading the word.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .15 (Linda)
    
         I, too, agree with you.
    
    Frederick
    

    Re.15 - Linda, I concur.
    
    Re.18 - Frederick, are you practicing the receiving with gratitude
    lesson this week?  (;^)  (;^)
    
    Cindy-roo

    
    
    
    Yes,I agree we have free will,but,we also have laws. I also agree that
    it isnt the money thats the problem,just as I believe its not the
    Alcohol,or the drugs,or,the race tracks,etc...When the misuse of any of
    these are harmful to others,then,there must be something done.Many
    thousands die because the money doesnt get to those who need it. There
    is so many examples of people suffering needlessly,I say get rig of
    the monetary systems,and,work to create a better World for EVERYONE,not
    just a small group.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: Get rid of the monetary systems
    
    I'm not sure I understand this proposal, or how it promotes world
    equity.  Money seems to just be a medium of exchange, a symbol of how much 
    we value something.  
    I value your car or your services X amount, and show you by giving you 
    that much of the symbolic value to buy it, so you can then give
    someone else that much symbolic value for something else.
    
    If there is no monetary system, then how do we exchange value ?
    
    Even primitive cultures use some kind of symbolic value, although
    in a small group, there is more trust and agreement as to what the
    value is (someone's "blood money" may become valueless if they
    are cast out of the group, and someone else may be given "credit"
    for their needs, based on their character and potential value).
    That doesn't seem the same as getting rid of monetary systems,
    in fact it seems to argue for a more sophisticated type of
    monetary system, or am I missing the point ?
    
    	kind regards,
    
    	>Todd>

   RE: getting rid of monetary systems...


   I think you have to keep in mind what money actually is.  All money is
   is a physical representation of energy expediture.  To buy something with
   money is an energy-for-energy exchange.

   Linda

    We could barter and trade.... like we used to.  
    It would eliminate much of the abuses that spring from the monetary
    systems and get rid of the unpleasant side effects.
    Money has assumed too much importance to humanity.  It is considered 
    to be more important than life now.  In that light, it serves as a 
    threat to humanity.
    
    Mary

    
    Monetary systems is what makes one person
    poor,hungry,destitute,and,another rich,full,and,living in luxury.
    Monetary systems,from the beginning,was a poor method of exchange.
    There was a time when people exchanged things,like animals,for,other
    things. Imagine,if you will,no money. If I was sick,I would go to a
    hospital for treatment,no charge. If I needed a place to live,I would
    choose a location approved of by the oversee council,get what I needed
    to build(construction industry),get a house built,no charge. Food,there
    would be plenty of food,since farmers could grow all they want,without
    worrying about crop failure or too low prices. They would have the best
    equipment. There is so many more examples,you see,no one would be left
    out,we would truly be working for each other,not against each other.
    You really have to think hard about this concept,since,there would be
    no money value on it. Yea,some people would have to give up some so
    that others could have a better life. The structure of government would
    change drasticly,I mean,we would have so many more people to choose
    from,not just those who have money. Also,we wouldnt be fighting with
    our neighbor,but working together. We wouldnt have to worry about how
    to balance budgets,there wouldnt be any! We would have to spend our
    time serving each other. What a concept! Of course,there would have to
    be an organization in place to manage all this,a grand council,with
    many smaller councils made up of citizens,to manage the local level.
    There is so many possibilities. Everyone would be required to work
    according to their abilities. Just think of it. Why should anyone in
    the world not have the same quality of life,as we do,only because they
    have no money,I say it is a crime against our own sisters and brothers,
    which we should not accept. Money systems are terribly mismanaged,and,
    corrupt,biased,and,oppressing to the core,it is time to rid ourselves
    of that.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Note 1369.24
DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE
    
Lets think about a variation on that Mike.  There are a few weak spots.
    
    If you were sick, you would go to a healer, not a hospital.  Hospitals 
    today exist to make a profit.  Healers exist to heal... and in return
    you would chop wood or help to build something or give food that
    you've grown or gathered.
    
    If you need a place to live, you could find one, cut down the materials
    to build it, and just build it yourself.
    
    Food could be grown hydroponicly in huge greenhouses.  Easy to maintain
    and better for the environment.  Everyone could grow their own.
    
    Take it easy on the grand councils... thats how the trouble usually 
    starts.  And no requirements to work either.  People naturally
    gravitate towards creating what interests them.  That is an individual
    choice.
    
    I doubt if existing systems can be modified... but perhaps we can start
    over again in a whole new way.  No politicians this time, no lawyers,
    no bankers, no businessmen...just craftsmen, ..... gee... its beginning to
    sound like heaven. :-)
    
    Mary

re: Mike and Mary

I would suggest that money is not the problem. Doing away with money
will solve nothing. The love of money and the love of power which
often accompanies those with excess money are the real problems here. 
There are also those in the barter systems of the world who lack
honesty. People need to be fixed; not the process. Until people
change, it's not likely that replacing one system with another will
make much difference.... You can't put a bandaid on a gaping wound
and expect the bleeding to stop.

FWIW

Dan
    

    Gee Dan, you weren't involved with deregulating the Savings and Loans
    were you? :-)
    
    If the process brings out the worst in people, than the process should
    be changed.
    
    There may also be those in barter system who lack honesty... but they
    are individuals dealing with individuals.  They will learn the hard
    way.  
    
    Monetary systems create huge impersonal institutions and eliminate
    personal community contact.  Therefore, if you are big enough, you
    can cheat your whole community and they will never even know who you
    are and they will never be able to retaliate by refusing to do 
    business with you.
    
    Monetary systems create the huge institutions that are at the core
    of most of the problems of modern man.
    
    And unless you've found a way to fix people, perhaps fixing systems would 
    be a more sensible approach.  At least, it seems that way to me.
    
    Mary

    
    
    I think a lot could be fixed by illiminating the money aspect. I really
    think bartering directly is not too good. I would do my share to help
    others,according to my abilities,which would be my responsibility to
    the community of the World. Councils made up of honest,sincere people
    whose only interest is to help others,would be very desireable,to
    manage the community. I'll continue this later,duty calls..
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Note 1369.28
DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE
        
    >I really think bartering directly is not too good. 
    
    Why not Mike?
    
    >I would do my share to help
    >others,according to my abilities,which would be my responsibility to
    >the community of the World. Councils made up of honest,sincere people
    >whose only interest is to help others,would be very desireable,to
    >manage the community.
    
    It has been my experience that honest, sincere people whose only
    interest is to help others do not join councils.  They help others
    as best they can through the course of their daily lives.
    
    And even if there were honest, sincere people interested in helping
    others on the original council... who would be on it in twenty years,
    or fifty years, or a hundred years?  The same old power junkies...
    thats who!
    
    You do what you are able to do, or do what you want to do... but no
    more community management.
    
    I will not support any more power structures Mike.  Humans are
    individuals, made to function independently, and they really do not 
    require management.
    
    Dreams of world councils can turn out to be totalitarian nightmares.
    
    We can take care of ourselves... we do right now.  
    But neither we (as individuals) nor this or any planet can support any more
    huge institutions who care more for power and money than for the well 
    being of the Earth and humanity.
    
    Only idiots make the same mistakes over and over again.
    
    mary

Mike and Mary,

I certainly agree that the pursuit of world peace is a worthy endeavor.
I also believe that this will not happen until the individuals who
make up the populations of the worlds's countries decide to make this
a reality. IMHO the problem once again is not systems; its the people
who are involved in the systems. When people themselves change, they
are then more likely to effect change in others. As far as the Savings
and Loans go, they also are made up of individuals...some crooked ones
at that. I don't feel that the world economic system (dollars) is by
any means perfect, but I don't feel that trading chickens for goats is
going to be an improvement. Money was introduced to provide a convenience
to those who would trade. I think I'd rather carry twenty dollars in my
pocket than carrying 3 chickens around my neck :-) Systems can be designed,
built,replaced and torn down, but no system will ever prove worthwhile
until those involved truly have the interests of the people they intend
to serve; at heart. Personal accountability and responsibility are
necessary ingredients if we all are to solve the many difficult problems
that face the world today.

In Peace,

Dan

    

    
    
    To have no management would be chaos,Mary! It would be the same as the
    wild,wild,west again,surely. There must be management,by,honest people.
    I dont believe that the honest people wouldnt join,I think the
    opposite. I feel I am an honest person and I would do my part to make
    things better. I dont have the money or trickery to run for
    office,and,I dont think I could deal with all the underhand dealings
    going on. The system breeds problems. Do you really think people would
    still obey laws like paying taxes,or,you cant rob your neighbor,if
    there was no laws? Laws must be in place so that people are forced to
    follow the rules,so as to protect those of us who do. There are laws in
    heaven,and,responsibilities. Without them is anarchy. Do you really
    think most humans are ready for total freedom? No way! 
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Note 1369.30                 
CSG002::MCLAUGHLIN 

Dan,

People are the way they are.  The only way to solve problems is to
first see the problem as it is.

The systems are not run by the populations of the world's countries.
They are run by certain types of particular individuals.  The systems
encourage and protect that kind of selected individuals.  The systems
themselves are the problem.

You seem to be saying that nothing can be done until people change.
Thats not true Dan.

Money was introduced to provide a convenience to those who would trade...
but its gotten way, way out of hand.  And I understand your reticence to
carry chickens around your neck :-)... but I'm also sure that you understand
that a different kind of society wouldn't require you to carry anything at
all.

>Systems can be designed,
>built,replaced and torn down, but no system will ever prove worthwhile
>until those involved truly have the interests of the people they intend
>to serve; at heart. Personal accountability and responsibility are
>necessary ingredients if we all are to solve the many difficult problems
>that face the world today.

You cast judgment on many, many systems that haven't been tried yet. :-)
I disagree that "no system will ever prove worthwhile until those involved
truly have the interest of the people they intend to serve at heart".
The key words here (to me) are "those involved".   A system that is constructed
in such a manner that there is no "those involved" ... which really means
those in charge, or those in control. or the same old power junkies.... 
has an excellent chance of proving itself worthwhile.

I agree that personal accountability and responsibility are necessary,
but let me strongly state that with personal accountability and responsibility
comes freedom... if the individual is to be held accountable and responsible
then the individual must be free to make his own decisions and choices.
    
You cannot legislate personal accountability or responsibility ... no matter
how hard you try, no matter how many prisons you build, no matter how many
police or laws you have.  Personal accountability and responsibility are
acquired through the human experience with wisdom that comes from the pain
of making mistakes.

These systems have failed us.  Why recreate them?

Mary

    
    What does chaos mean to you Mike?
    
    Chaos is the natural pattern of life as it grows and changes.  Chaos
    has patterns of its own... the Strange Attractor.  The pattern of
    chaos is the pattern of life itself.
    
    There was nothing wrong with the wild, wild west you know. :-)
    There were fewer murders than in our cities today and you were
    safer in Dodge City than in New York or Los Angeles today.
    
    I don't doubt your honesty Mike.  But you are not immortal and any
    system we had the opportunity to design must be built to last.
    One cannot design a system with existing holes in it... ones that
    you know will lead to the same old problems.
    
        
    >Do you really think people would
    >still obey laws like paying taxes,or,you cant rob your neighbor,if
    >there was no laws? Laws must be in place so that people are forced to
    >follow the rules,so as to protect those of us who do. There are laws in
    >heaven,and,responsibilities. Without them is anarchy. Do you really
    >think most humans are ready for total freedom? No way! 
    
Why would we need taxes?  You wouldn't even consider robbing your neighbor
    if he were armed and prepared to defend himself... now would you?
    Laws limit us... they hold us back.  We don't need laws in place and
    we don't need to invent rules for other people to follow.  You must
    protect yourself and... in case you haven't noticed... thats pretty
    much what happens already in today's society.  
    
    There are NO laws in heaven and anarchy is merely another word for letting
    go and letting God. 
    
    Yes Mike.  I think most humans are ready for total freedom.  Further,
    I think it is merely an illusion that we don't have total freedom right
    now.  
    
    Rules only seem to benefit their makers.
    
    Mary

        I would rather barter for three of your daughters than a whole
    barnyard of your animals...;-)   Motivation is important to a society
    that you envision.  I don't think what you (Mike or Mary) describe
    motivates me.  I agree more with Dan and Linda who are basically saying
    that money is "innocent."  Your so-called freedom to carry weapons and
    do whatever is not what I consider responsible.  We have created a
    system with lots of problems...but problems are not necessarily solved
    by throwing everything away.  Perhaps working on a global monetary
    exchange system rather than simply one country versus another is one
    way to grease the wheels.  Putting checks and balances in to prevent
    too much buying power is another.  
        I don't know...just that what both you, Mary and Mike, are saying
    seems to strike me as a poor motivator.
    
    Frederick
    

Mary,

I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure that what you heard was really what I meant.


:-) :-) :-)

Dan
    

    I tend to lean more toward Fred's view, also.   A medium of exchange
    has no intrinsic evil, and does have a lot of intrinsic convenience that
    makes our quality of lives higher than in any barter-based society.
    
    From a sociological perspective, the closest in modern times we
    have come to "chaos" was after the breakdown of the old Roman power
    structure.  I wasn't around in the early middle ages, but from what I hear,
    it wasn't all that pleasant, and people still polarized into
    the very rich and the very poor.   The medium of exchange just
    changed, that's all.  Even with the problems today and the romantic
    images of Camelot, I still prefer to be alive today.
    
    Also, humans are not pure spirit nor purely altruistic (yet), and
    (IMHO) have behavior patterns that require enforcement by group norms. 
    The fact that these norms and their enforcement is imperfect is not
    a strong argument for their dissolution, IMO.
    
    	warm regards,
    
    	>Todd>

    
    
    Mary,
    
        I see chaos as the lack of controls,that is to say,everyone for
    themself,meaning that it would be like throwing corn into a chicken
    house,everyone scrambling around without anything to manage it. 
        I was using the tax example in the context of todays society,not
    the one I invision,that would be without taxes. 
        Fredrick,I understand your point around motivation,I too,thought
    about that in relation to the system I describe. Money and power
    certainly IS very motivating,but,I believe,is a negative one. I believe
    people would be motivated by the desire to maintain a system where
    there was a much better life available,I mean,if I had the opportunity
    to be happier,more secure,more free,I think that would motivate me a
    lot to participate.
       We dont need a money system,we need a NEED system,based on serving
    others. The money system serves yourself,then others,if you decide to
    do that. The NEED system serves others first,which in turn will end up
    serving you in a very positive way. There would be a prioritized need
    list,ex;food,clothing,housing,recreation,luxuries...etc. Each person in
    the community would be provided for. Each one would contribute to the
    community,and,in turn,to others. It would be managed by honest,sincere,
    leaders whos job is to make sure each and every member would be
    recognized,and,no one would be left out. 
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Mike,
    	You might be interested in the writings of the (18+th) century
    political philosopher Rousseau, if you come across a book of political
    philosophy.  He also felt very strongly about the possibility of 
    benevolent leadership and the triumph of human spirit in running the 
    world.   He makes a very good case in some places.
    
    	kind regards,
    	>Todd>

    What we need... what I wish I could conjure up somehow... is other
    places to go.... other worlds... other planets.
    
    We are so different... all of us ... from the shores of Africa to the
    coast of Canada.  In many ways, we've evolved in totally different
    directions.   
    
    Speaking for myself only... I really don't want to live like this
    anymore.  I want to go away... somewhere else... where things can be
    different.  Where life has a chance.  Where people like me... of like
    mind and inclination... can go off and start all over in a new and
    different way.  Where we could treasure the planet and each other.
    Where we could find value in things that are real... things that
    matter.  Where we could create.
    
    If I could accomplish just one thing by virtue of my existence... it
    would be this. 
    
    Mary Stanley

Re 39.

Mary, what you're suggesting - if I understand you correctly - is walking
away from this life/earth. That only might solve the problem for you alone,
if its not part of your karma and not for the rest of the world.
Nobody can change the world as a whole but imho everybody should try to start
within his/her area of influence, no matter how small.

Good luck!							Hans.

    Not just me, but for anyone who wanted what I want and who was of like
    mind and inclination.  Who cared about the planet and each other.  Who
    wasn't into power and money but rather life and creativity.
    
    There is nothing to solve for the rest of the world... they don't
    even consider the problems that I see to be problems at all.  They like 
    things the way they are.  They care about their possessions and their
    lifestyle and their own things.  Not that thats bad... its just 
    so very different.  
    
    How does a society that cares so little about its children and its
    environment, and so much about war and money survive?  It can't... and
    I'm truly afraid it won't.
    
    If I can't figure a way out of here...and fast... nothing will survive... 
    not the planet, not humanity... nothing at all.  
    
    There has to be a way.
              

    
    Mary,
    
       I can understand what you are saying,I too,have had those thoughts.
    Only thing is there is no other place to go. Our history is filled with
    examples of people wanting the same thing and migrating somewhere else
    hoping for a better life. We have run out of places to go,so,the only
    other recource is to try to change where we are at,which,seems so
    unsurmountable as to discourage even the attempt. We have the
    technology to link the whole World together,the real problem to
    overcome is getting the majority to agree. There are some positive
    signs,but,the current leaders in the World are far from being on the
    same wavelenght. Perhaps a major writing campaign to major leaders and
    the U.N. would start the idea going in the right places.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: Mary and Mike
    
         I agree that this world is screwed up in lots of ways.  I also
    agree that if we continue in the way of the past that it will
    end...poorly.  So much so that I have written words to this effect in
    here in DEJAVU several times.  Remember the words, "die to the past"? 
    That is precisely what this is in regards to.  Just pointing out the doom 
    and gloom of it will go nowhere, however, except to have a negative
    impact on those who hear the words, vis a vis, those who read about it
    or hear others talk about it.  I also think that you deserve credit
    for offering up ideas, thoughts, visions, etc. of what you'd like
    and perhaps even of how to get there.  But where we disagree most
    sharply, however, is in the implementation.  I agree with (Hans.)
    who says that it must first start from within.  I disagree with Mike
    when he takes on the traditional religious (Christian) view of starting
    with others in the hopes of eventually getting back to poor martyred
    me.  I agree with those who say that they are sick of it and "this" is
    what *they* are doing about it.  I like it when they say they have
    their own private meditations looking for help and seeking answers.  I
    like it when they say that in realizing that the world is a direct
    reflection of whatever is going on within themselves emotionally that
    they, in taking full responsibility, have dedicated themselves to
    resolving their own (negative) emotional issues FIRST!  How many times
    in here (and elsewhere) have we discussed the concept/belief/reality
    that "out there" is really "in here"?  To keep on insisting that
    "them's bad" and ignoring what is going on within isn't going to make
    it happen.  This is not "dying to the past" but rather it's the same
    old blame/shame/domination game.  You really want to change the world?
    Change yourself.  Period.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Fredrick,
    
        Perhaps,in your belief system,starting by helping others is a
    Christian viewpoint,which I dont dispute. I only dispute that it is
    ONLY Christian. It is not just a Christian viewpoint,which perhaps for
    you,links it to religion. I see it as a moral viewpoint,and,not
    connected to any eastablished religion. 
        Its easy to say "start with within yourself",thats great,but,I dont
    see how it cannot be connected to an action. If I "start in myself" and
    decide that I will no longer pay taxes to support war,but,instead will
    use my money for humanitarian aid,that would take an action,which would
    surely cause a reaction by the IRS,which would prevent me from doing it
    without severe penalties,and,most likely discourage me. On the other
    hand if I could get the law changed somehow so I could do with it as I
    will,that would be more positive,and,would allow many more people to
    speak out in that way,without fear of punishment. Either way would
    require a definet action "outside".
         It would be interesting to know what people would do if they had
    the choice on their income taxes what their money was spent for.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Note 1369.42                 
DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE                                 

Then.... I'll have to create a place and a way to get there.
.... and I will Mike... I will.

    Yes,Mary,someday you may be in a position to do just that,create your
    utopia,on some different World,and,you might have a lot of supporters
    to help make it work. 
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .40-something...Mike
    
         Okay on the religions, etc.
    
         To use your example, though...have you looked inside yourself to
    see what it is you don't like about taxes and to see what fears/angers/
    hurts/etc. you have around them?  Have you reached to the depth of your
    soul or self to see what beliefs you hold about them?  Have you
    explored why they exist in your reality and what conflict you have over
    them?  Have you looked at whatever payoffs you may be holding in
    regards to the righteousness of your feelings about them?  Have you
    looked at your own dark law or negative personal myth or negative 
    global myth to see how taxes relate to them?  Have you stood back
    and done the self-examination necessary in order to understand the 
    blockages you hold which keep those taxes from being the positive
    influence they might otherwise be?
         Now then, Mike, using this example, assuming you have done all
    the above and that you have reached some definitive conclusions, what
    have you done about it?  That is, not in changing the taxes, but in
    changing yourself?  What have you done to eliminate your blockages or
    to avoid taking the payoffs or to unravel your dark law?  What have you
    done to change your beliefs or attitudes in regards to the taxes?  Have
    you entered your sub-conscious mind *even once* and set about changing
    the beliefs residing therein?  Have you tried to replace one set of
    beliefs with another?  Used affirmations?  Have you explored the 
    "negative" emotions you hold about taxes and realized that there are
    other more helpful ways to "vent" or express your emotions?
         I believe you simply don't understand what I'm talking about.  I
    believe you still hold onto the view of them versus me.  I believe that
    even if you can grasp what I'm talking about and even to the extent
    that you might believe me, that you won't do it...either out of
    laziness or fear or stubbornness, etc.  So, in your reality, nothing
    will change...everything will continue as it is, most likely.  
         Understand one thing...I am *not* saying don't lend a hand, don't
    extend yourself to others, etc.  That would not only be totally 
    self-centered, but likely it have very severe personal impact.  What 
    I'm saying is that to blindly help others or to try to get it/them
    to "change" isn't going to work.  That one of the first steps
    (depending on immediacy of the situation) is to look very long and
    hard within yourself, no matter how scary or unpleasant or boring
    or whatever it is that looks like, and discover whatever it is that
    is within regarding the issue at hand.  Then, and only then, can
    you go about in the releasing/forgiving process and follow it up with
    a decision to change and then doing it.  After that, the issue you
    held will no longer exist.  Either it will diminish to a point of
    irrelevance or it will cease to be.  This is the function of reality.
    So, get out of the superficiality of the illusion into the full
    understanding of self and much of what you confront will no longer
    be there.
        Are you understanding any of this?
    
    Frederick
     

    
    
    Yes,Fredrick,I have thought and looked inside myself on these questions
    since a small child. I spent many hours in the woods at the
    homestead,by myself,exploring life and why I am who I am,and,what path
    I would choose in life. I have beliefs that I have decided I dont need
    to change,and,I accept the emotions that go with these beliefs. My
    expression of these beliefs,to me,is acceptable. I am not trying to
    change anyone,only expressing myself,in hopes that they might change
    themself by exploring what I have to say. I believe what I want is very
    difficult. I believe my motivation is out of caring,for my sisters and
    brothers,which is a very emotional part of my being. I know what I dont
    like,and,why. I am searching for ways to express it in a positive
    way. I believe,that,by expressing my beliefs,that,I will find others
    who will have the same or similar views,and,if enough,we can change
    things for the better.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .48 (Mike)
    
         Thank you.  And I certainly commend you for the positive signs
    and the positive decisions.  I can only add, however, that if you
    see negativity in the world, then there is negativity still within
    you.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .47, Frederick,
    
    I like your comments here very much.  How did you come to understand
    this self-discovery process ?
    
    >Todd>

    
    Fredrick,
    
        I agree,there is still negativity within me,which I recognize.
    I however,feel,that dispite that,I can,and want,to contribute positive
    things to the World around me,in so doing still work on myself.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .51 (Mike)
    
          ...way to go, Mike!
    
    re: .50 (Todd)
    
         Thanks.  There are so many notes in here now that I wouldn't
    expect anyone to find mine particularly, but there are some in here
    that reveal much of what you ask.  I'll send you mail.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    
    Paul,
    
       Thats just what does happen,so,there isnt much choice,since we only
    have one planet,we better do something about it. I know in various
    places in this conference there are addresses of different governments
    around the World. I was thinking about having a note with just
    addresses of governments around the world,and,the U.N. I am wondering
    if this would be appropriate here and if there is already a note on
    this. Could someone help? Moderators? 
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Hi Frederick,
    
    I don't always agree with what you say or sometimes your waying of
    saying it, but I found myself nodding in full agreement with (.43 and
    .47) - right on!!!  I also feel what Mike is feeling and have found
    myself taking action in creating world peace in various ways, both on
    my own and by joining groups.  But the biggest step, I've taken was
    discovering how to find inner peace and it has reflected in the world
    around me.
    
    Roey
    

    
	Michael,

	I feel that you are really linked with the Spirit of your name,
    just express it freely.

	Writing to the governments ... why not ! 

	For France where I live, I think that our government is very concerned
    by peace already.

        In general, it seems to me that we could start working on what already
    exists and improve both ourselves and the systems to go to ... what we know
    in our heart is that is so difficult to express in words that sometimes
    it seems that we have different points of views. I think that we all
    have the same jewels in the heart.
	
	Rita.
    

    
    RITA,
    
       Hello,thank-you for the encouragement. I believe,in our
    hearts,that,we are all the same,and,want the same basic things for
    us,and, our family. The World Community is an extended family. We are
    no longer isolated from each other. There has been great strides in the
    past few years,and,I feel now is the time to begin to think about and
    work towards World Unity. I again will ask if there is no
    objections,that,we have a note on addresses to world governments. I
    think we need to write to them,and,the United Nations to see if a spark
    can be struck. I would hope that anyone who has imformation will
    participate. I will wait a couple of days before initiating it.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Michael, just an idea that popped up:  Why not sending a letter to 
    government (correcty addressed) and at the same time sending five
    letters to friends you trust each containing a sample copy of the
    letter you wrote and asking them to do the same?  
    
    There already is a world community, and everybody is doing their part
    by waking up to who they are.  All that is necessary will manifest.
    The change needs to take place in consciousness to be truly effective.
    The best thing I feel I can do to participate is helping other people
    raise their consciousness.  
    
    Paul

    
    
    Paul,
    
        Thats a good idea,and,I agree,that,getting people to work towards a
    unity of the World by spreading the word,is worth doing. In some
    cases,thats all we can do,in others,we can do more. I dont think
    everybody is doing their part,that is why those who are,need to help
    those who arnt,become more aware and more involved. I am planning,at
    this point to start a new note tomorrow,as I stated earlier,if there is
    no problems about it. I have had some feedback,and,havnt seen anything
    that would prevent me from doing it. 
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

Maybe this got said, but I can't wait through 30 replies to write this response:

The barter system worked when our products were necessities and not mass
produced.  But now, our products are many, many more, and mass produced.  The
guy who works putting TV's together is going to get "paid" how?  With TVs?  How
does he take them home and trade them to others simply?  So instead, his
employer gives him a slip of paper (in our society, money), that represents 
the equivalent value of TVs, and he goes to merchants who accept this 
representation.

The basics to a monetary system are not wrong.  It's all the addons and abuses
that HUMANITY has created (interest on loans, for example).

Beth

    
    Computers would be a big part of a non-monetary,non barter system.
    World-wide links would be established to run the logistics of the
    system. The basic needs would be taken care of first. There may be a
    bigger need to have farmers than say,radio assy plants. The only
    difference would be,the work would be distributed according to need.
    People would work less hours,and,more people would work,full
    employment. You would need to do your share to contribute to the
    community. Each mini community would be linked to others,by
    computer,and,would expand,layer,by layer,until the network would be
    World-wide. 
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Hi Michael,

    your aims are good, but...

    Firstly, your proposed system sounds rather like
    communism. Have you read 'Animal Farm'? Communism
    is a *great* system for getting you off the first
    few rungs of the physical existence ladder - but
    it generates inertia and inefficiency and a feeling
    of powerlessness after that. Nobody likes shovelling
    shit - but it needs doing. People don't do those
    messy jobs out of respect for others (even if they
    out to). Capitalism works much better in this respect,
    but it's still not perfect. So, let the 'new' system evolve
    itself - it will, don't worry.

    Secondly, we are all wading around in reality and
    haven't found the 'utopia switch' so there has to
    be some first step. That step is on you and your
    surroundings. Not some mythical entity called a
    government.  Talk more, communicate more, link people
    together. When enough people want to change - it'll
    happen - you can't force it.

    Why do the cells in the body cooperate? Because it
    suits them. At some stage in the past some of the
    constituents of those cells found it suited them better
    to cooperate. Soon, it will become apparent to the
    human(cell)s of this planet(body) that cooperation suits them
    best. Lets call it Gaia-conciousness.

    It's coming.
    But you can't impose it.
    You can help it along though.
    
John D.

    re -1
    I agree with you John.  I like the idea of Gaia consciousness.
    
    But-
>    Why do the cells in the body cooperate? Because it
>    suits them. At some stage in the past some of the
>    constituents of those cells found it suited them better
>    to cooperate. Soon, it will become apparent to the
    
    The cells in *your* body maybe!! ;^)
    (I guess I'm just going through puberty all over again...)
    
    Pablo 

    
    I do agree,John,that it is coming,but,I want to help it
    along,and,because If we dont push it,we wont make it in time. The
    Invironment is deteriating too fast to just slide along and wait for it
    to happen. People must take action on this. I know people wont want to
    change,especially if they are having a great life,but,a lot of people
    are not having it good. It will take a lot to change peoples atitude
    from "ME",to "US",so,its really important to start now. My system is
    definitly not communism,since,there is no monetary/power system to
    corrupt,its simply a people governing themselves in a controlled
    manner. Those who have responsibility in the local community is
    directly accountable to the people in that community. We may have to do
    jobs that we dont particularly like,but,that kind of work would be
    minimal to each individual,and,like you say,someone has to do
    it,but,you would rather have someone else do it? Who? There again,its
    the "ME" thinking again. Want to solve the budget problem? Dont have
    one! Besides the World is close to an economic collapse right
    now,just,look whats happening around you. The banks,Insurance
    companies,our own government and all the other governments in trouble
    financially. Our own people are way in debt,companies are folding left
    and right,bankruptcy,forclosures,a general slide. Lets open our
    eyes,and,stop trying to deny it.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Note 1369.64
    DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE
    
    Don't worry about there not being enough time Mike.  We are being given
    time.  
    
    Change happens in all different kinds of ways.... and things have a 
    way of working out.  The environment is being cared for until we come
    to our senses.  The world economy is changing... taking on a different
    form and face ... but economic interactions between humans will still
    be around.  
    
    Perhaps you can't see it but... things are definitely getting better
    and not worse.  People are waking up all over and coming to their
    senses.  The old destructive power sources are disintegrating.  New
    ones will form in time.
    
    We must have some faith in humanity.  Humans are quite remarkable
    creatures.  They alone can evaluate their actions and adjust them 
    accordingly.  
    
    "Picture a bright, blue ball just spinning, spinning free... dizzy with
    possibilities."
    
    Everythings going to be just fine.
    
    Mary

    
    
    MARY,
    
      I guess I dont see what you see. I think its a matter of perspective.
    If we were to talk of hope,it would make a difference who we talked
    to,the well off person with good invironment,a home to live
    in,food,or,the mother of a child dieing of starvation in Africa,no
    place to live,no food,terrible unsanitary conditions. Its gone on long
    enough! How can we just sit back and say "everything will be fine",when
    its obvious that it isnt. Its that kind of attitude that prevents
    things from getting better. Is our company just sitting back,nope! I
    cannot either. There is a time for every purpose,now is the time,before
    we get to the point of no return!
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    I saw what you see awhile ago...  the farsight.  I felt as you felt and
    I sought out a way to change things.  I found the way Mike... the
    navigators always find the way... we have to, it's our purpose.
    Keep doing what you do best and keep working on implementing your
    dream. 
    
    But don't worry so much... everything will be fine.  I promise.

    
    
    I Dont worry that much,I grieve. It hurts to see what is happening to
    my sisters and brothers,and,I can do so little,but,humanity can do so
    much! That is why we need to push this,because it will take a massive
    effort on the part of millions. We need help,our overseer needs our
    help to make our planet worth keeping.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    I have a t-shirt with a drawing of the crop symbols on it and words
    from a Grateful Dead song written underneath.... 'help on the way'. :-)
    
    You'd be surprised at how simple life can be... at how easily
    complicated problems can be washed away with a new rain.
    
    Believe it or not ... (and I know it's hard to believe) we are over the
    hump already.  Patterns are in place already for a whole new world.
    Guess a couple million years of evolution wins again.
    Watch the show Mike... here comes the good part.
    Or... as the Grateful Dead say,... things are gonna get stranger, lets
    get on with the show.
    
    Mary

    Re: .64, Michael.

    Mmm. What seems to me to be a problem here is
    that you are failing to discriminate between
    your version of Utopia and where we are and what
    we can do now. Suppose I buy into your vision of
    the future. What to do now to get there?

    In my opinion it is not efficient to try and
    change a government in the ways you suggest.
    Instead, work on yourself and those around you.
    This might work on an obvious level - you
    become head of a powerful organization and then
    'do' things. Or you may 'convert' the future
    president. But I believe there is a more
    subtle effect here - sufficient awareness by
    sufficient people. Then things will change
    very quickly.

    And I think that it *will* be alright, as
    Mary says. Just keep working at it, and
    holding where you want to get to in your
    attention.
    
John D.

    
    John,
    
       I agree that my ultimate vision is a long way off,and,yes,we have to
    start somewhere that is a reasonable beginning. We have a long ways to
    go. I believe the spreading of the idea is a start,writing to
    governments through-out the world,working with the United
    Nations,writing and talking to our representatives,supporting other
    groups and organizations,churchs,who are doing things to achieve
    equality,lessening suffering in the World. There are many things we can
    do to help us get there,but,we shouldnt take it lightly.
    
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    
    Examples(IMO),of,money misuse:
    
        The Sultan of Brunei,one of the worlds richest men,reportedly spent
    $950,000 on his nephews ninth birthday party.
    
        Lotteries: Millions of dollars per week spent to win lotteries. 
    
        Churches spend millions of dollars to build fancy Temples,buildings.
    
    
        Rich people are richer,poor are poorer (look at the stats).
    
        Military spending in the Billions,all around the World. Even now,
        we are falling into deeper debt every day,sitting around in Saudi
        Arabia.
    
    
        I see so many reasons to get rid of a system that is
        corrupt and diseased.
    
        
    
        Peace
        Michael
    

    Re.72
    
    Michael,
    
    I believe that we should work on transforming the monetary system and
    focusing it on the greater good.  For every example you cite in .72,
    there are corresponding ones which do focus in on using money for
    positive purposes.
    
    Even with the list itself, the money went *somewhere*.  Perhaps it
    ended up in the hands of people who could really use it...such as
    servants at the Sultan's nephew's party, or perhaps in the shops where
    the gifts, decorations, and so forth, were purchased.  To bring this
    one step closer to home, if I were to purchase a second coat to wear 
    (one for informal wear vs. formal wear), would you then state (iyho) 
    that I am misusing money?  How would you determine this?  Who shall say
    who is misuing money and when?
    
    Doing away with the money will not change those people who abuse the
    system - the underlying attitudes will still be there, only I believe
    the abuse will follow through to whatever system is put into place.  
    
    Therefore, should we abolish the system, or shall we try to address the
    more basic of the problems?  I believe we should transform, not
    abolish, in this instance.
    
    Cindy

    
    
    Cindy,
    
      I do understand your points,only I look at it in a different way. You
    see,in my mind,the existance,and,value, put on money,creates a
    system,which is detrimental to the poor,uneducated,meek,of the world.
    It is a power structure,which is fed by the greed and corruption in the
    world. Even though,through many help organizations,money is put to a
    good positive use in many instances,its misuse,which to me is those who
    control and have the major part of the money in their
    posession,outweighs the other by a large margin. We should have a
    system that works on need,not greed. IMO,the only reason we have people
    in the world hungry is because of our economic system,which says,if you
    make too much food,the price drops,you cant get the money you
    need,and,you will fail,so,you make less food,and,people go hungry. What
    would happen if we planted all the land available,without worrying
    about the economics? We would solve the hunger problem,IMO. So,you
    see,the economic system is bad,and,should be abolished. If we had a non
    monetary system,everyone would have the same opportunity for the
    pursuit of happiness,why should you or I have a place to live and
    another not,simply because the other person doesnt have the money? Can
    we deny our sisters and brothers happiness because they dont have as
    much money as we? The pursuit of riches and power has always denied the
    people their right to have a good life. In Gods eyes,we are equal in
    spirit,and,none of his children should be denied their opportunity to
    live and grow for the good of the whole. When we deny our sisters and
    brothers,we deny ourselves.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
     

    Re: .72
    
>        I see so many reasons to get rid of a system that is
>        corrupt and diseased.

    There are a lot of people out there who *like* using
    money (for good/bad reasons). How do you intend to impose
    your solution?

    Start instead with something achievable. Stop using money
    yourself, perhaps. Or work to create a small community
    which doesn't use money. Or investigate all the attempts
    people have made in the past to create this kind of
    society.

    Sometime soon there will be the possibility of creating
    a 'moneyless' society, which exchanges 'credits' electronically.
    Do we want that? Is that any different?
    
John D.

    
    
    Exchange credits? Nope,same as money,just a different name,and,less
    handling. Well,I dont think it can be imposed,but,I think the collapse
    of the system,will make it necessary. I realize its a biiiiiiig
    step,and,there will have to be smaller steps to get there,but,it is
    good to keep in mind the ultimate goal so as to not loose site of it.
    
    As far as myself not using money,or,setting up a cummunity,not possible
    at the present time,with current system in place. The current system
    must break down sufficiently to push people to try a new one,thats when
    the opportunity will present itself. With the current problems,and,the
    direction we are going,it may not be that far in the future. We are
    already falling faster than I inticipated,and,I didnt act fast enough
    to change my financial situation,and,so,I am riding the wave with
    everyone else.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Thought this was a good place to add this, as it has very much to do with
    World Community.  Be warned -- it's *long*
    
    
     ---------

    
The Recovery of Participating Consciousness by
Morris Berman 

An excerpt from his book The Reenchantment of the World, Cornell 
University Press, 1981

    "The issues raised in this book are so important to an 
     understanding of our times that I strongly recommend
     reading the entire text."
     Willis B. Harman, President, Institute of Noetic Sciences


    The view of nature which predominated in the West down to the 
eve of the Scientific Revolution was that of an enchanted world.  
Rocks, trees, rivers, and clouds were all seen as wondrous and 
alive, and human beings felt at home in this environment.  The 
cosmos, in short, was a place of belonging.  A member of this 
cosmos was not an alienated observer of it but a direct 
participant in its drama.  His personal destiny was bound up with 
its destiny, and this relationship gave meaning to his life.  
This type of consciousness--"participating 
consciousness"--involves merger, or identification with one's 
surroundings, and bespeaks a psychic wholeness that has long 
since passed from the scene.  The world, riddled with purpose, is 
fully meaningful.  Fact and value are identical:  "What do I 
know?" and "How should I live?" are in fact the same question.

    The story of the modern epoch, at least on the level of mind, 
is one of progressive disenchantment.  From the sixteenth century 
onward, mind has been progressively expunged from the phenomenal 
world.  At least in theory, the reference points for all 
scientific explanation are matter and motion--what historians of 
science refer to as the "mechanical philosophy".  Developments 
that have thrown this world view into question--quantum 
mechanics, for example, or certain types of contemporary 
ecological research--have not made any significant dent in the 
dominant mode of thinking.  That mode can best be described as 
disenchantment, non-participation, for it insists on a rigid 
distinction between observer and the observed.

    Scientific consciousness is alienated consciousness: there is 
no ecstatic merger with nature, but rather total separation from 
it.  Subject and object are always seen in opposition to each 
other.  Everything is an object, alien, not-me; and I am 
ultimately an object too, an alienated "thing" in a world of 
other, equally meaningless things.  The cosmos cares nothing for 
me, and I do not really feel a sense of belonging to it.  What I 
feel, in fact, is a sickness in the soul.

    Translated into everyday life, what does this disenchantment 
mean?  Jobs are stupefying, relationships vapid and transient, 
the arena of politics absurd.  In the vacuum created by the 
collapse of traditional values, we have evangelical revivals; 
retreat into oblivion through drugs and television; and a 
desperate search for therapy as millions of Americans try to 
reconstruct their lives amidst a pervasive feeling of anomie and 
cultural disintegration.

    We are NOT witnessing some sort of peculiar twist in the 
fortunes of postwar Europe and America, an aberration tied to 
such late-twentieth-century problems as inflation, loss of 
empire, pollution, and the like.  Rather, we are witnessing the 
inevitable outcome of a logic that is several centuries old, 
being played out in our lifetime.  It is not that science is the 
cause of our predicament.  The scientific world view is, however, 
INTEGRAL to modernity, mass society, and to the alienation just 
described.

   What will serve to stabilize things today is fairly obscure; 
but it is a major premise of this book that because 
disenchantment is intrinsic to the scientific world view, the 
modern epoch contained, from its inception, an inherent 
instability that severely limited its ability to sustain itself 
for more than a few centuries.

    *********************************************************
    * For more than 99 percent of human history, the world  *
    * was enchanted and man saw himself as an integral part *
    * of it.  The complete reversal of this perception in a *
    * mere four hundred years or so has destroyed the con-  *
    * tinuity of the human experience and the integrity of  *
    * the human psyche.  It has very nearly wrecked the     *
    * the planet as well.  The only hope, it seems, lies in *
    * the reenchantment of the world.                       *
    *********************************************************

    Here, then, is the crux of the modern dilemma.  We cannot go 
back to alchemy and animism--at least that does not seem likely;
but the apparent alternative is the grim, scientistic, totally
controlled world of nuclear reactors, microprocessors, guided 
missiles, and genetic engineering--a world that is virtually upon 
us already.  SOME type of holistic, or participating, 
consciousness and a corresponding socio-political formation will 
have to emerge if we are to survive as a species.  At this point, 
it is not at all evident what this change will involve; but the 
implication is that a way of life is slowly coming into being 
which will be vastly different from the epoch that has so deeply 
colored, in fact created, the details of our lives.

Reassessing the Medieval World View

The hallmark of modern  consciousness is that is recognizes no 
element of mind in the so-called inert objects that surround us.
The whole materialist position, in fact, assumes the existence of 
a world "out there" independent of human thought, which is "in 
here".  And it also assumes that the Earth, excepting certain 
slow evolutionary changes, has been roughly the same for 
millennia, while the people on that Earth have regarded the 
unchanging phenomena around them in different ways at different 
times.

    According to modern science, the further back in time we go, 
the more erroneous are men's conceptions of the world.  Our own 
knowledge, on this schema, is of course not perfect, but we are 
rapidly eliminating the remaining errors that do exist, and shall 
gradually arrive at a fully accurate understanding of nature, 
free of animistic or metaphysical presuppositions.

    Modern consciousness thus regards the thinking of previous 
ages not simply as other legitimate forms of consciousness, but 
as misguided world views that we have happily outgrown.  It holds 
that the men and women of those times THOUGHT they understood 
nature, but without our scientific sophistication their beliefs 
could not help but be childish and animistic.  The "maturation" 
of the human intellect over the ages, particularly in this 
century, has (so the argument goes) almost completely corrected 
this accretion of superstition and muddled thinking.

    One of the goals of this book is to demonstrate that IT IS 
THIS ATTITUDE, RATHER THAN ANIMISM, WHICH IS MISGUIDED.  We fail 
to notice this misguidedness because of our contemporary 
inability to enter into the world view of premodern man.  Because 
the scientific attitude is OUR consciousness, it is nearly 
impossible to abandon, even momentarily.  Indeed, doing so is 
usually regarded as prima facie evidence for insanity.  Nor does 
the intellectual recognition of the relativity of our own 
consciousness serve, by itself, to place us at the center of a 
different consciousness.  In short, it is very difficult to form 
a reliable impression of the consciousness of premodern society.

    We must try to see science as a thought system adequate to a 
certain historical epoch, and attempt to separate ourselves from 
the common impression that it is some sort of absolute, 
transcultural truth.

    When the obvious objection is raised that the mechanical 
world view must be true because it demonstrably works so well (in 
inventing technologies, and sending man to the moon), one can 
only reply that the animistic world view, which lasted for 
millennia, also worked fully for its believers.  In other words, 
our ancestors constructed reality in a way that typically 
produced verifiable results.  If another break in consciousness 
of the same magnitude, as that represented by the Scientific 
Revolution, were to occur, those on the other side of that 
watershed might conclude that our epistemology somehow 
"projected" mechanism onto nature.

    In fact, if the criterion for judging an epistemology is going 
to be efficacy, we can only note that our own world view has 
pragmatic anomalies that are as extensive as those of either the 
Aristotelian world view or a magical world view.  We are not, for 
example, able by means of the current paradigm to explain 
psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, psychic healing, or a 
host of other "paranormal" phenomena.  Indeed there is no way, 
on a pragmatic basis, to judge objectivistic science 
epistemologically superior to the participative medieval view.  
In fact, in terms of providing for a comprehensible world, the 
earlier view of participation might even win out.

Signs of Reenchantment

    One of the first signs of a radical shift in the assumptions 
underlying science came with quantum physics.  Two concepts are 
absolutely essential to the epistemology of classical (including 
relativistic) physics.  The first is the notion that all reality 
is ultimately describable in terms of matter and motion; that the 
positions and momentum of elementary particles comprise the basic 
reality of the phenomenal world.  The second point is that ours 
is a nonparticipating consciousness: the phenomena of the world 
remain the same whether or not we are present to observe them.

   But the major philosophical implication of quantum physics is 
that there is no such thing as an independent observer.  Our 
consciousness, our behavior, is part of every experiment, and 
there is no clear boundary between subject and object.  We are 
sensuous participants in the very world we seek to describe.

   Thus quantum physics offers us at least a glimpse of a new 
participating consciousness, one that is not a simple reversion to 
naive animism.  As we consider the implications of quantum 
physics, it becomes quite clear that a most significant 
alteration of our scientific world view would follow from the 
deliberate inclusion in our scientific thinking of the awareness 
that we participate in reality.

    Historically, we have been limited to a choice of two 
possibilities.  One either asserted the existence of a 
disembodied intellect, as we have done since the Scientific 
Revolution; or one argued (contrary to what we manifestly 
perceive with our present consciousness) that stones, houses, 
clouds, trees, are alive and possess an indwelling spirit--as 
people had earlier perceived.  As we shall see below, a third 
possibility emerges.

A Possible Form of the New Holism

    The problem may be restated as follows.  We stand at the 
crossroads in the evolution of Western consciousness.  One fork 
retains all the assumptions of the Industrial Revolution and 
would lead us to salvation through science and technology; in 
short, it holds that the very paradigm that got us into trouble 
can somehow get us out.  Its proponents, East as well as West, 
view an expanding economy, increased urbanization, and cultural 
homogeneity on a Western model as both good and inevitable.  The 
other fork leads to a future that is as yet somewhat obscure.  
Its advocates often seem to be an amorphous mass of Luddites, 
ecologists, regional separatists, steady-state economists, 
mystics, occultists, and pastoral romantics.  Their goal seems to 
be the preservation or resuscitation of such things as the 
natural environment, regional culture, archaic modes of thought, 
organic community structures, and highly decentralized political 
autonomy.

    The first fork leads to a blind alley or a Brave New World.  
The second, on the other hand, often appears to be a naive 
attempt to turn around and go back whence we came; to return to 
the safety of a feudal age now gone by.  But a crucial 
distinction must be kept in mind: recapturing a reality is not 
the same thing as returning to it.

    The real difficulty, of course, is discovering how to 
recapture this wisdom in a mature form.  The synthesis provided 
by the early work of the cultural anthropologist Gregory Bateson 
is perhaps the most fully articulated holistic scientific view 
available today; one that is both scientific and based on 
unconscious, tacit knowing (Steps to an Ecology of Mind; New 
York: Ballantine, 1972).  For Bateson, Mind (which also includes 
value) becomes a concrete reality and a working scientific 
concept.  The resulting merger of fact and value represents an 
enormous challenge to the human spirit, not merely a calming of 
its fears.  Bateson's work represents a recovery of the 
alchemical world view in a credible, scientific form.  It turns 
the conscious/unconscious dialectic into a creative method for 
investigating reality.  At the very least, it indicates some of 
the salient characteristics of the emerging but not yet visible 
postmodern world view.

    To Bateson, Mind is regarded as being immanent in the 
arrangement and behavior of phenomena (rather than inherent in 
matter itself).  We are not separate from the things around 
us--yet this is not interpreted in a "primitive" or premodern 
sense.  

    Bateson's holistic view is in direct contrast with secular 
humanism, the Renaissance tradition of individual achievement and 
mastery over nature.  That sort of arrogance is completely 
unscientific in his extended sense of science.  This holistic 
view includes the important lessons of myths, the wisdom of 
"primitives", and the archaic algorithms of the heart.  It is not 
opposed to the scientific intellect, but only to the inability of 
that world view to locate itself in a larger context.

A Liberating Political Vision

A shift in epistemology has implications not only for the 
individual, but for all of society.  In a holistic viewpoint in 
general, and in Bateson's work in particular, the uniting of fact 
and value means that to explicate epistemology is to explicate 
ethics, and thus, unavoidably, politics.  We are dealing with 
both a liberatory epistemology and a liberatory political vision.

    One of the most obvious characteristics of a future "planetary 
culture" in this liberating vision is the straightforward revival 
and elaboration of analogue methods of expression.  Such a 
culture will be dreamier and more sensual than ours.  The inner 
psychic landscape of dreams, body language, art, dance, fantasy, 
and myth will be seen as legitimate forms of knowledge, playing a 
large part in our attempt to understand and live in the world.  
There will be a strong shift in medical practice toward popular 
and natural healing; an avoidance of drugs and chemical 
manipulation; and a near merger with ecology and psychology, 
since it will be recognized that most disease is a response to a 
disturbed physical and emotional environment.  The body will be 
seen as part of culture; birth and death will be regarded as 
natural processes; and there will be a greater awareness of 
ourselves as animals.  In a reversal of recent trends, there will 
be a revival of the extended family, with the elderly mixed in 
with the very young, and their wisdom being a continuing part of 
cultural life.

    There will be a shift in the ideal of personality, from the 
ego to the Self, and the interaction of the self with other 
selves.  The result will be an emphasis on community rather than 
competition, on individuation rather than individualism, and an 
end to the false-self and role-playing that have so badly 
desacralized human relationships.  Power will be the equivalent 
to centeredness, inner authority, and not the ability to make 
others do what you want them to.

    The future culture will have a greater tolerance for the 
strange, the nonhuman, for diversity of all sorts, both within 
the personality and without.  The ideal will be the many-aspect 
person of kaleidoscopic traits, with a greater fluidity of 
interests, working and living arrangements, and sexual and social 
roles.  The principle of diversity will require the preservation 
of endangered species and endangered cultures, as factors that 
enlarge the gene pool of possibilities and thereby make life more 
stable, durable, and interesting.

    Politically, there will be a strong emphasis on 
decentralization, with institutions tending toward small-scale 
and subject to local control.  Political structures will tend 
toward being regional and autonomous.  Mass production will yield 
to craftsmanship; agribusiness to small, organic, labor-intensive 
farming; and nuclear power plants and other centralized energy 
sources to renewable energy options appropriate to their own 
regions.

    The economy will be steady-state, a mixture of small-scale 
socialism, capitalism, and direct barter.  This will be a 
"conserver" society, with nothing wasted, and a great emphasis on 
regional self-sufficiency.  There will be little interest in 
profit  as an end in itself.  The posture toward others, and 
toward natural resources, will be one of harmony rather than one 
of exploitation or acquisition.

    Such a planetary culture would erase our temporary feeling of 
homelessness, and the sense that our personal reality is at odds 
with the official reality.  The universe will once again be felt 
as nurturing and benevolent.  Meaning will no longer be something 
that must be found and imposed on an absurd universe; it will be 
given, and men and women will have a feeling of cosmic 
connectedness, of belonging to a larger pattern.

Recovery of Holism

    How are we going to get there?  From the present vantage 
point, the vision of a future in which men and women have control 
over their own destinies, and in which ego-consciousness is more 
reasonably situated in a larger context of Mind, seems utopian in 
the extreme.  Yet the only alternative is suicide.  Western 
industrial society has reached the limits of its old-paradigm 
learning, and much of it now is in the midst of the social 
analogue of either madness or creativity--that is, re-creation.

    One of the most effective agents of this set of changes is 
the decay of advanced industrial society itself.  The conserver 
society will not come about because of voluntary effort, but 
because the planet simply cannot support the world of 
ever-expanding Gross National Product.  We may choose to make a 
virtue out of what has been called "Buddhist economics", but we
shall have to return to a steady-state economy whether we like it 
or not.  Social change is also being generated by millions of 
individuals who have no interest in change per se, but have 
effectively undertaken an "inner migration" toward self-renewal.

    Holistic society is coming upon us from a variety of sources 
that cut across the traditional left-right axis.  Feminism, 
ecology, ethnicity, and transcendentalism (spiritual renewal), 
which ostensibly have nothing in common politically, appear to be 
converging toward a common goal.  These holistic movements do not 
represent a single social class, nor can they even be analyzed in 
such terms, for BY AND LARGE THEY REPRESENT THE REPRESSED 
"SHADOWS" OF INDUSTRIAL CIVILIZATION: THE FEMININE, THE 
WILDERNESS, THE CHILD, THE BODY, THE CREATIVE MIND AND HEART, THE 
OCCULT, AND THE CULTURES OF THE RURAL PERIPHERIES.  If there is 
any bond among the elements of this "counterculture", it is the 
notion of RECOVERY.  Their goal is recovery of our bodies, our 
health, our sexuality, our natural environment, our archaic 
traditions, our unconscious mind, our rootedness in the land, our 
sense of community and connectedness to one another.  What they 
advocate is the direct attempt to get back from the past what we 
lost during the past four centuries: the attempt to recover our 
future.

   To sum up then, the past four centuries have witnessed a 
progressive rise in the mechanistic idea  that we can know the 
natural world only by distancing ourselves from it.  This idea 
essentially destroyed the animistic, holistic tradition that 
preceded it, which viewed human beings as participants in the 
cosmos rather than as isolated observers of it.  Changing our 
current situation will require more than a revolution in our 
epistemology; but there is no doubt that such a revolution, which 
would include a major shift in values, will have to take place.  
It is very likely that the new world view which is emerging will 
be more ecological than animistic.  But whatever its exact 
parameters, it will be grounded, philosophically and 
experientially, in the intimate connection between human beings 
and nature.

    re: .77,
    	Thanks for entering all that in.  There are some very
    powerful ideas in there.
    	Todd

    
    
    Well,
    
    
       Just a few comments,and,to vent some frustration. I had really hoped
    that the elections would be a message to those officials we choose to
    represent us. I hoped that people were upset enough to make some
    wholesale changes in our government. Well,it didnt happen,at least to
    any degree that would be real effective. I guess people arnt't quite
    ready for change. I was hoping for many changes,and ,more women in
    office. This example really emphasizes the BIG job ahead to make any
    kind of Global changes neccessary for our survival. It is disappointing
    to me to see all that is going on inthe World. Major problems to
    overcome before unity is achievable: 1.Massive oppression of
    women,minorities,races. 2.increased racial hatred,apartied,isolation.
    3.massive control and power of Men over women(women need to increase
    their efforts to overcome traditional roles of being the weaker and
    controlled,as well as children. ) 4.corrupt monetary systems
    (economic collapse on a world scale is neccessary,to awaken people to
    the falsity of the system) 5. power hungry,militaristic
    governments,and,the society that breeds them(where the man is the
    dictator of the family,and,women,and,children are brought up to be
    robots,which will succumb to commands,orders,corporal
    punishment,violence,in the family) We have a long ways to go,and,I am
    discouraged today,sad. I will put my efforts into awareness of world
    leaders,writing my ideas to them. In this way,a seed planted and
    nourished would produce the greater good,than if it were given on a
    smaller scale,not to say that I wont talk up my ideas to anyone who
    will listen,but,want to influence as many as might be possible. I
    encourage you to do the same,as much as possible. I have hope amidst
    great odds,that,eventually,that,enough of the people will come out of
    the dark ages,into the light,to make it a better World.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Dear Michael,
    
    Don't dispair, there is hope!!!  Much is going on beneath the surface,
    all is not as bleak as it may appear and the situation is turning around.
    
    Namasthe,
    
    Ro
    

    Yes Michael... its the direction that is important and... at least to
    me.. this election showed indications of a real change of attitude.
    The signs are subtle but they are there.. todays dripping faucet
    becomes tomorrow's deluge.
    
    Take heart.
    
    Mary

    Ditto Michael.  We are trim-tabbing our way to a better world.  One of
    the interesting results from this past election (across the country) is
    that many incumbants who "won" only did so by the slimmest of
    margins.  Some only received 51% - 57% of the vote.  And many of these
    incumbants were running against relative new-comers, unknowns, and/or
    grossly under-financed opponents. 
    
    The message is clear.  People are no longer willing to settle for
    the status quo.
    
    Peace & blessings to you Michael,
    
    Karen

    
    Another positive sign from the 1990 election is voter turnout. In
    Massachusetts, over 85% (I believe that was the final figure) of 
    the electorate voted; this kind of turnout is likely in a presidential
    election year, but in so-called "off-years" far fewer voters usually to
    go the polls. 
    
    Perhaps people are indeed realising that each vote, like each personal
    statement of commitment to a principle, does count. 
    
    gloria
    
     

    
    Thank you all for your positive comments and concern. I guess its a
    feeling a lot of people are having after seeing a goal not
    reached,especially with such small margins. But,you know,if the people
    of this country cannot make changes then how can we expect changes in
    other countries,whose people are repressed,especially
    women,and,children? Fighting never achieves what we want,because,there
    is usually a winner and a loser. This doesnt work,we all have needs
    that need to be met together. The bullies need to be removed,and,in
    their place,peacemakers. A BIG ORDER!
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Re .77
    
    I'm glad the article does not advocate a simple about-face and return
    to an animistic world view, but it still paints what I consider an
    over-rosy picture of the animistic world.  A world in which all things
    are alive is not necessarily a world full of friendly neighbors.  It
    also contains enemies.  If you dig into folklore, you soon find all
    manner of cautionary and scarifying tales about the fays and other
    nature spirits.
    
    Also, it seems to me that our problems spring less from a faulty world-
    view than from greed and a lust to dominate.  Those drives found
    expression in the animistic world, and I don't see that anything
    prevents them from finding expression in a "re-enchanted" world.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    In a re-enchanted world Earl... we can turn them into toads. :-)
    
    Mary

    I dont think man has learned much from history. We continue the same
    path of destruction,oppression,greed for power. Its like a train out of
    control,the only thing that will stop it,is a massive obstruction,which
    may eventually appear. 
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .85, Earl,
    
    I didn't get the impression that the article it was suggesting that 
    everything was benevolent in a "re-enchanted world."  Only that
    things could be perceived more for what they are in our subjective
    reality, rather than trying to continuously build some kind of
    abstract, objective truth out of patterns outside ourselves.
    
    My interpretation was more of a fundamental linguistic nature than a 
    mushy unreasonably optimistic one requiring a wet blanket...
    
    I thought it was suggesting that our concepts should re-incorporate 
    valuation within them, rather than being abstract and intellectual.  
    I may have missed something, but it didn't seem that only positive 
    valuation was being suggested.  There could be fears, anger, hate, lust,
    greed, etc. incorporated into the worldview just as well, however
    they would be taken for what they are, subjective sensations in our 
    personal world, and not some abstract notion of evil vs. good on the
    outside.
    
    In fact, my first impression is that the interpretation that the article
    was proposing a purely rosy world, just because it suggests a form
    of animism, may be an example of the very maladaptive worldview that it 
    was speaking out against :-) ...   IMO, it contains its own wet blanket,
    but it sees the wet blanket for what it is, an object with
    certain qualities that our senses can perceive, and which can, in
    a "re-enchanted" world, be understood without making it an abstract
    concept that destroys someone's motivation or hope.
    
    	Also, we can turn them into toads :-)
    
    	kind regards,
    
    	Todd

    re: .87,
    	
    It's so unfortunate that the worst damage is often done by the
    tribulations in the world to the people who have the most potential
    to contribute to their resolution.
    
    In his "Outline, A Short History of the World," H.G. Wells
    predicts in his last chapter that mankind will find peace
    through the League of Nations and a World Government.
    
    In a later edition, Wells' postscript adds :
    
    	"Since [1940] a tremendous series of events has forced upon the
    	intelligent observer the realization that the human story has
    	already come to an end and that Homo Sapiens, as he has been
    	pleased to call himself, is in his present form played out."
    
    ALl his life, Wells had interpreted history as the story of man as
    a perfectly benevolent, creative natural being which sometimes came
    to negative influence by the restrictions imposed on him by
    society.   Hitler, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima changed his entire
    view of man and disillusioned him about our basic nature.  
    
    It is interesting to note that Wells' history of man considers
    it the story of creativity and growth, whereas most other
    historians see our timeline as a series of one war after
    another and the struggle of man to dominate man.  
    
    Some have suggested that his disillusionment was also influenced
    by the failure of the world to take his inventions and ideas
    seriously.
    
    kind regards,
    
    	Todd

    
    While there is a tremendous amount of pain and suffering in the world,
    there is also a lot of good that is happening, albeit very quietly.
    
    I suspect that the people participating in these kinds of activities
    are not in politics (elected office, anyway).
    
    Cindy

Note 1369.89
DWOVAX::STARK
    
Todd, 
    
    To me the key phrase in Wells' quote is "that Homo Sapiens, as he has 
    been pleased to call himself, is in his present form played out."
    
    I suggest that it is time for homo sapien (as he has been pleased to
    call himself) to alter his form... to adapt to a more demanding and 
    dangerous environment... to evolve.  
    
    He must make a conscious choice to direct his own evolution in such a 
    manner as to save himself, his species, his planet, and reality itself.
    
    
    Mary
   

                                                          By

                 BE HIS CHILDREN                          MICHAEL H. PUSHARD
                                                          RFD #2 BOX 3980
                                                          NEWPORT,ME 04953
                                                          NOVEMBER 20TH,1990
           SEE THE CHILDREN,HOW THEY SAY                 

           WHAT WE WANT,IS TO PRAY                    

           THAT WE CAN,STAY AWAY

           FROM THE KILLING,OF TODAY

             LET ME SAY,IF I MAY

             FROM A CHILD IS OUR WAY

           SEEK THE PEACE OF A MOUNTAIN

           FOLLOW THE PATH OF LOVE
 
           DO WHAT YOU CAN TO SPREAD ITS MESSAGE

           AND REMEMBER,IT CAN BE DONE

           
           TAKE THE TIME,LOOK AROUND YOU

           SEE WHATS HAPPENING,HERE TODAY

           WHAT WE NEED,TO COME TOGETHER

           UNITY IS THE WAY

             ASK THE CHILDREN,IF YOU WILL

             FROM A CHILD WILL BE THE WAY

           TURN TO HIM,THAT LOVES AND GUIDES YOU

           FOR THE MESSAGE OF OUR AGE

           BE HIS CHILDREN,PLANT HIS GARDEN

           SHARE HIS LOVE,FROM TODAY
    
    
       I am going to be leaving Digital in a month,and,would like to thank
    you all for the fellowship in this conference. It has been a very good
    experience for me. The song above is one I wrote by inspiration,to be
    used for the promotion of peace and unity in the World. Use it for that
    purpose. If you would like to have the music for it,write to me,I have
    made a recording of it. I will use it for only the purpose in which it
    was written,no personal gain will be had. You may make copies and
    distribute them for cost or free. Anything in reguards to
    copywrite,please write me,for,I have exclusive writes to this. I hope
    you will continue this note in my absense,and,help the cause. God bless
    you all,we may meet again some day. Any well wishes please send off
    line,thank-you.
    
    Peace
    Michael