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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

1329.0. "Subconscious=Rightbrain?" by HITPS::FALOR (Ken Falor) Fri Aug 03 1990 18:46

	A year or so ago, I was thinking about the Sperry split-brain
	experiments.  As you may know, the trunk of nerves connecting
	the two halves of our brain was cut, which sometime helps
	severe epilepsy.  The side effect is that half the brain
	doesn't know what the other half is doing or thinking.  Sperry's
	experiments showed that the right half is mute, but creative
	and intuitive, and sometimes has opinions opposing the left
	half.  For example, one man found his left hand pushing his
	wife away while his right hand (and consciousness) was embracing
	her (a fairly serious division on opinion, I'd say).

	In another experiment where the subject's hands were out of
	his sight, a key, say, would be put in the left hand.  The
	right would be unable to guess what it was, but would usually
	make a try.  When the key was revealed, the attempt of the
	leftbrain to rationalize why the key was called, say, a pencil,
	was incredible, and suggested that the leftbrain has a unbelievable
	drive to make all things sensible or rational, even if it has to
	believe the impossible and be somewhat "insane" in its perceptions
	of the world, at least that part of the world around the 
	inexplicable event(s).

	I wondered how you'd communicate with the right brain to find
	out more about it and its opinions.  There is even a good
	chance that the right brain is the seat of at least part of
	our subconscious.

	I thought of writing letters, numbers, and commons words and
	phrases on a paper, and using my left and right hands alternatively
	to do the pointing somehow.

	Guess what!  It looks like an Ouija board!

	I've noticed that Topher and a couple others hypothesize that
	you may be communicating with your subconscious with the Ouija.
	That would mean that the subconscious either has contact with
	the spirit world, or it has a tremendous imagination (which
	it does; that's its trademark).  That's why extreme measures
	must be taken in testing against the possibility that your
	subconscious/rightside may have noticed something that you/left
	didn't (in a newspaper etc.) or remembered something you didn't.

	Can we explore this topic a little more here?  What are the
	implications that our subconscious is our rightbrain, and mute.
	Is there a way to communicate with it?  Why should it sometimes
	create(?) a "demon" via the Ouija and torment us with it?

	For this discussion, let's first assume that there is no
	spirit world, at least via this means (rightbrain or ouija)
	and see where it takes us.  Then we can do spirits and esp, 
	which I think will make it much more complicated.

	Is singing a rightbrain phenomena?  Then maybe that's a way
	to communicate.  Some stutterers can sing perfectly clearly
	(there's a famous country singer that stutters badly when
	talking), but some doctors say that singing just forces
	control of the breathing, and also you know what you are
	going to say in a song.

	Say we did have a communication device.  Say it's a kind of
	demystified ouija (do we get demons and spirits because we
	expect them?).  Say singing also works.  Then what?  It may
	be that the rightbrain is quite alien.  It may not think in
	words, though the evidence is strong that it understands them.
	We may ask in words, but it may have to reply some other way.
	How?  By a communication orthogonal to language?  By feeling?
	But is all feeling located in the rightbrain and none in the
	left?  By images?  But the leftbrain can visualize, can't it?
	Or is all image constructed in the right?  You can communicate
	some verbless feelings via art -- for example, I could draw
	a bright colorful abstract, and that would say something vs.
	a dark gloomy abstract, but it would be a feeling without a
	verb or something to indicate whether it is what I feel or
	what I saw once or what I think of you or or or...  Does
	anyone have any art verbs and modifiers?

	What are your thoughts?	

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1329.1Subconscious=left+rightbrain!CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperFri Aug 03 1990 22:27146
    Ken,

    Unfortunately, you have done some first class thinking on the basis of
    a whole series of misconceptions which have been fed you by a pop psych
    press which is more concerned with presenting simplistic messages than
    even vaguely accurate ones.

    Sperry's patients were, quite literally, brain damaged.  That the brain
    can compensate for that extensive damage by developing two more or less
    independent personalities is truly amazing -- but it is not what is
    going on in "normal" people.  That the personalities which developed
    each had certain distinct cognitive deficits provides subtle clues to
    the way that cognition ties into the physical "architecture" of the
    brain.  But it is simply not *directly* relevant to undamaged brains.

    Familiar tasks such as thinking, reading, speaking, understanding
    speech, moving, etc., are done by coordinating the activities of a
    number of lower-level processes.  These lower-level processes
    frequently have specialized areas of the brain where they take place.
    Some of these specialized areas are on the left side and some are on
    the right.  There are, for example, *multiple* speech centers both on
    the right and left brain-hemispheres.  Speech in normal human beings
    involves all of those centers.

    The right brain is not mute, any more than your soft palette is "mute".
    In normal human beings the right brain is an important and active
    component in the production of speech.  In people with the
    corpus-collosum severed, however, it is blocked from access to some
    critical, uncompensatable pieces of cognitive machinery necessary to
    utter speech, and so it *becomes* mute as a result of that brain
    damage.

    The right side and left side are not separate people.  You are both of
    them working together, just like you are the front and back of your
    brains working together.  The right doesn't *help* you-in-the-left, it
    simply is *you*.

    You don't have to communicate with your right brain; you *are* your
    right brain.  It has no existence independent of you; it has no
    thoughts independent of your thoughts -- unless you have had your brain
    split surgically.

    Facile descriptions of the right brain as "intuitive" and the left
    brain as "analytic" have some validity, but shouldn't be taken too far
    (as they almost universally are).  Those descriptions are a loose and
    only partially accurate way of summarizing the difference on the
    average in the functions of the various specialized brain centers on
    the two sides.  But both high-level "intuitive" and "analytic" thinking
    requires both sides of the brain just about equally.

    People trying to sell techniques for tapping intuition make themselves
    sound more "scientific" by saying that they are tapping the "potential
    of the right brain" or some such sales spiel.  They might as well say
    "Now with cleanorresorcibite-7 for a whiter than white wash".  I'm all
    for people learning to use their intuition better (and even more their
    analytic powers better -- most people seem to depend principally *on*
    their intuition without particularly knowing how to use it), but this
    sense of "intuition" has almost nothing to do with left/right brain
    dichotomies.

    I don't know of *anything* by the way, that justifies calling the right
    brain more "creative" than the left -- that is just part of the sales
    pitch of those whose line is that "you" are your left brain and are cut
    off from the "creative" right side and they can help you "get in touch
    with it".  Creativity is a high level function which almost certainly
    involves both sides of the brain, and, independently of that, both high
    level "analytic" and "intuitive" thinking.

    A better term than "intuitive" for summarizing right brain functions --
    the proper antonym for "analytic" -- is "synthetic", except that has
    taken on some completely inappropriate connotations.  "Holistic"
    suffers from a similar problem -- it has come to mean simply "good". 
    Centers in the right brain *tend* to see the forest but not the trees,
    while centers in the left brain *tend* to see the trees but not the
    forest.  Only by working together, moving a task back and forth between
    them, do they get the benefits of both views.

    As for some of your other points --

    People with severe cognitive deficits try to function normally in a
    normal world by compensating for and rationalizing away their deficits.
    Read The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat for many examples.  I don't
    know any reason to suppose that this function is peculiar to the left
    brain.  I rather suspect that given the correct circumstances the left
    brain personality of a split brain patient would be just as quick to
    rationalize.

    I do not hypothesize that the Ouija board operates through unconscious
    movements.  That is a well established scientific theory which was
    proven pretty conclusively by Michael Faraday (among others) well over
    one hundred years ago.  What I do hypothesize, without much conviction,
    is that once in a great while, the Ouija board operates under different
    mechanisms, though to the best of my knowledge this has never been
    observed under controlled conditions which provide any strong reason to
    believe it.

    I am quite sure that the "right brain is the seat for at least part of
    our subconscious".  The rest of it is in the left brain.  Everything
    that I said before about cognitive processes existing via coordination
    between the left and right brain applies to the whole "mind" --
    conscious and subconscious.  Your hypothesis is a reasonable one given
    the misconceptions which you have been flooded with.  The inappropriate
    sense of the word "intuitive" which the "learn to use your right brain"
    promoters have been pushing, refers to subconscious reasoning -- both
    analytic and holistic.  Twenty years ago they would have been saying,
    with more accuracy, "learn to tap the potentials of your subconscious".
    But today the subconscious is "out" and the "right brain" is in, so
    they ascribe its properties to the right brain, leaving your
    consciousness sitting isolated in the left.

    You yourself, by the way, provided an example of subconscious
    functioning in a "left brain" personality.  The rationalization of the
    error is clearly a subconscious function.  The patient was not just
    "making up excuses" to cover up his/her embarrassment at being caught.
    The patient was rationalizing their own behavior in terms to bring it
    out of conflict with their own self-image of a "complete" individual in
    control of themselves.

    Singing uses somewhat different centers than normal speaking does. Some
    of the differences are in the right brain, and some in the left. It
    would seem that the neurological flaw that causes stuttering is (at
    least frequently) in one of those centers side-stepped when singing. 
    Cursing has the same property for stutters, by the way, but this is
    less useful for treatment.  I think the "helps control breathing"
    doctors are just those who object on principle to explaining stuttering
    as anything but a "behavioral" problem.  They seem unable to deal with
    the fact that just controlling the breathing without the singing has
    little effect, except through stress release.

    The right brain in Sperry's experiments frequently communicated with
    words -- it just had to write them, it couldn't get access to the
    *vocal* mechanisms.

    The subconscious, in any case, is *highly* verbal.  Most of the
    subtlety of our verbal behavior comes out of it.  We do not generally,
    consciously construct each sentence by scanning carefully through our
    mental lexicons, choosing each word and plugging it in (if we did, we
    would be conscious of the detailed mechanics of our languages grammar,
    and the linguists wouldn't still be arguing over it).  Rather, we think
    of what we want to say and the right way of saying it pops into our
    mind and out of our mouths -- supplied by the subconscious.

    In any case, keep in mind that the Ouija only communicates with certain
    "aspects" of our subconscious.  There is a lot of room "down there."

					    Topher
1329.2CSC32::GORTMAKERwhatsa Gort?Fri Aug 03 1990 23:1312
It's important to note that the left side of the brain has motor control for
the right side of the body the right having control of the left side.
A person that suffers a stroke of the left side might possibly lose the
motor function on the right side. Speech in this example might also be 
impaired but not from an inability to form the words but an inability
to properly control the vocal chords,tongue,ect. These symptoms have been seen
countless times in stroke patients and confirmed with CAT scans.

I believe there is far more speculation than known facts about which side 
does what and how.

-j
1329.3Right on, Topher!SWAM2::BRADLEY_RIFri Aug 03 1990 23:5312
    re: .1 (Topher's analysis of the Right Brain/Left Brain issue)
    
    Toher's sober review of this issue seems very accurate from my
    understanding of brain functioning. The whole brain is, indeed,
    "you"--the Right brain has no special virtue, and usually works in
    coordination with the "Left" and other brain centers. I do wish his
    analysis was part of the knowledge base of Judges who must rule in
    homicides where "insanity" is plead, as a defense. Is it possible for
    the Corpus Collusum to temporarily become non-functional or impaired,
    so that a person could commit an act, and have no awareness of having
    done so? The answer to that question would have profound implications
    in our criminal justice system.
1329.4CRUISE::CFEUERSTEINWhy is there air?Sat Aug 04 1990 01:244
    Simply put, Topher. I even read the whole thing. I agree with
    what you said. I could not have said it better.
    
    thank you
1329.5Spelling errorCADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperSun Aug 05 1990 13:235
    Before my error propagates any further, the name of the large bundle of
    nerves connecting the left and right brain hemispheres is the "corpus
    callosum".

						Topher
1329.6Ill-legal actsCADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperSun Aug 05 1990 13:4220
RE: .3

    It is quite certain that people can commit acts and not remember them
    later -- or commit acts that they are not aware of as they do them.
    Hypnosis provides a means by which this can be demonstrated pretty much
    at will.  I do not believe that temporary impairment of the corpus
    callosum has much to do with it though.  After all, the right brain
    memories would become available to the left brain, and vice versa,
    after recovery.  This is a function of conscious vs subconscious rather
    than left vs right brain.  Furthermore, I do not think that impaired
    memory of an event has much bearing on proper legal responsibility for
    illegal acts.  One is not responsible for illegal acts because of
    "insanity" in the US if, at the time of the act, either you are
    incapable of understanding that the act is "wrong", or you are utterly
    incapable of not commiting the act.  I think that that is a pretty fair
    principle -- the problem being determining when it applies.  As is
    frequently the case in law, the only available solution is to depend on
    the case by case judgement of the jury or presiding judge.

					    Topher
1329.8Muddied by ideology.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperFri Aug 24 1990 18:2421
    There are consistent differences in how boys/men vs girls/women do on
    such tests as the SAT.  There are those who *insist* that these
    differences *must* be intrinsic/biological and those who *insist* that
    these differences *must* be purely cultural artifacts and training, and
    some who say maybe one maybe the other or maybe a bit of both (wafflers
    every one :-).  Those who believe that these differences are biological
    bolster their case by pointing at the (typical, not absolute)
    differences between men and women in "brain lateralization" and posit
    that these real but subtle gender differences lead to the differences
    in test results.  They haven't demonstrated the connection, but simply
    have stated that it *might* be there.  In any case it is more subtle
    than "using different sides of their brain", but rather in how they
    use and coordinate the two hemispheres.

    As always in such discussions, it is important to keep in mind that
    *both* the gender differences in test scores and physical brain
    lateralization concern *averages* not individuals.  Many girls/women
    are more mathematical than many boys/men, and the same applies to the
    subtle lateralization effects.

					Topher