Conference hydra::dejavu

    The *presence* in my house, that is until Thursday of last week (I'm
    very grateful to both Lennice and Topher for all of their help), was
    the only continuous spirtual experience that I've ever dealt with.  I
    did have an out of body experience that others, including myself, have
    dismissed over the years as a dream of some sorts.  On my part, really,
    it was more like a denial.  If you deny it long enough it never
    happened *8-).  In the past, if I was ever questioned, I would shrug
    it off as having eaten spicey food and an over active imagination. 
    This is sort of lengthy but here goes:
    
    I had a friend 10 years ago who was very sensitive in many ways.  He
    was able to *feel* things, such as a presence, etc.  My family and I
    lived in a fairly new house not more than 15 years old.  For some
    reason or another he didn't care for something in the house and would
    only visit for short periods of time (that's if he forced himself to
    come over).  At first I thought he was avoiding me and it really hurt
    but after awhile I began to realize a genuine fear of some sort.  He
    knew that something, a situation, was going to explode and he knew that
    this incident would occur with me and another that I would not be able
    to see.  I shrugged it off as joke - How can someone tell this sort of
    thing??  I did believe in other planes, in the spiritual nature, but
    not to the extent of swallowing this!!  I told him his fears were a
    little on the overactive side and if he couldn't find the time to come
    over then not to bother even calling.  Incidently, he did add that this
    *presence* of some sort knew I was sensitive and would be after me.  I 
    never beleived that until Lennice pointed that out to me last week.
    Anyway, one night in the fall (it was sort of cool outside) I had
    finished watching the late news and kneeled on my bed a bit to shut the
    window above me.  I then got up and shut the TV off and then crawled
    back into bed.  In a matter of minutes I noticed the curtains and the 
    shades were being blown as if there was a gush of wind at 65 miles and
    hour, straight out!!  I glanced up and the window was open maybe an
    inch and that's it.  I stared at the curtains for a minute, got up on
    my elbows to make sure th window wasn't open too much and then this
    gush of air came in which made the room cold.  Colder than it was
    outside.  Now I was getting scared.  The next thing I knew was the
    feeling of cold hands, sort of damp, closing around my throat, sort of
    pressing against my throat so I couldn't scream but in a way I could 
    breath tho' not that well.  I tried to scream 'no' but I couldn't get
    it out.  Then I felt light, sort of floating and I looked down to see
    myself pinned on the bed choking.  This all transpired in a matter of
    2 or 3 minutes ... who knows, maybe longer since it felt like an
    eternity.  I finally got strength from somewhere and yelled in a very
    hoarse voice "NO" and I felt it all leave the room in all different
    directions.  Rushing so to speak.  It took me awhile to get off the 
    bed but I finally did. I ran down the stairs and screamed to wake up
    my mom who, consequently, didn't believe me (even tho' after her mother
    died she came to visit her to tell her that she wfelt better and was
    out of pain.  Also, that my mother would be fine and she would be right
    there by her side - well, she said that she must have dreamt all of it.
    Can you believe it!).  
    
    I haven't told many people this, maybe a handful at the most.  I know
    I didn't dream it .... anyone out there have an experience like this
    to tell??
    
    /gail

    /Gail,
    
    Nasty experience!
    
    Did you ever discuss it with your friend?  Did he know why it was after
    you?
    
    How did this affect you afterwards?
    
    Meredith
    

    I had an OBE several years ago during a time when I first began
    to seriously ponder upon the reality of life after death.  I believe
    I recounted it somewhere else in this file a few months ago and I
    don't have the time to enter the details again at this time, but
    suffice to say is that it was precipitated by a pretty strong vibration
    in my solar plexus area as I was falling asleep one evening.  And it
    was absolutely not a dream.
    
    I was impressed with three things in that experience.  One, I
    experienced that *I* could exist outside of my physical body;  Two,
    that I felt perfectly *whole* and complete -- even though I had left 
    my body behind, so to speak, my consciousness felt as though it was 
    not missing any 'parts';  and three I directed my movement and travel 
    with my thoughts.  It was a very pleasurable, exciting, awe-inspiring 
    experience.
    
    It seemed to have happened 'spontaneously', as I was not studying or
    practicing any techniques beforehand.  Other than several occasions of
    lucid dreaming which is somewhat similar, it has not happened since, 
    and I don't care one way or the other if it ever happens again.  I feel 
    the purpose has been served.  I learned a lot from it and as a result, 
    like many other who have experienced OBE's, I don't have a fear of
    death.
    
    If I am supposed to engage in a certain kind of beneficial work which 
    will require astral travel or OBE's then I believe that will become 
    apparent to me.  So far there hasn't been any indication of such a 
    need or purpose.
    
    Karen.*
    

    	Put in a toe, put in the whole body.

    	I already recounted the "drowning" incident in the death-dream
    note, but I also (and only one other person on earth has heard this
    before) "floated" out of my body a few days after some very major
    surgery. Things were not going well for me and the resident was very,
    very concerned. This had surprised me, as although it was the second
    major operation in two months and although I had great complications,
    it had come as a surprise to everyone that things had progressed tot
    his point. 

    	I was in such tremendous pain that I wasn't able to sleep for three
    days following surgery, I was very weak, not eating, being pumped full
    of drugs and fighting a transplant. At one point, I tried to "get away
    from the pain", I found myself "floating" very peacefully above the
    bed. It was so peaceful and so painless that I wanted to stay there but
    (probably due to the previous experience) I realized that I was no
    longer in my body and I became aware that I WANTED to be back in it
    (pain and all). I have no time awareness of how long this took, but
    when I realized that I was back in my body, I KNEW that I was going to
    make it through the surgery and the trauma and my recovery came
    literally by leaps and bounds (no one could understand it).

    	It was only when I was truly on the road to recovery that the
    resident commented that my condition had been very serious following
    surgery.

    	It could have been a dream, it could have been hallucinations, it
    could have been many things. I've spent a lot of time trying to
    "reason" out these out of body experiences. I have no explanation as
    they define my logic. All I know is that they happened.

    	The impact on my life? People (psychics, healers,etc.) ALWAYS tell
    me that I have a very strong spirit and that I am guided by many
    helpful and protective spirits. Some people claim that they feel lots
    of energy around me. (take what you like here and leave the rest). I
    think that it has made me very spiritual (not religious) and I firmly
    believe that I have a reason on earth, I'm just not sure that I know it
    yet.

    To be honest Meredith, I've always been the type of person that was
    never a *true* believer unless it was proven, sort of a Samuel Clemen's 
    type of person *8-)  I was convinced, only for a short period of time, 
    that the incident never occurred.  'There is more to heaven and earth
    than is dreamt of in your philosophy' .... this is so true.  It took a
    long conversation with my friend and others like him to realize that
    something happened in that room and it's okay to talk about it, even 
    tho' I have no idea who it once was or why I was the target.  
    
    In a way it's a little far fetched but I KNOW something happened and I
    KNOW I wasn't asleep.  I KNEW there was a presence of some sort in my
    apartment and there was.  
    
    
    Lennice or Topher,
    
    How do I go about exploring abilities, that is if I have some, in the
    paranormal (or whatever the term may be)???
    
    /gail

I did NOT tell Gail that a "spirit" is after her.  I pointed out to her that 
she is "sensitive", if you want to use that word.  (That's obvious, as she 
heard Celia and felt her presence.)
 
According to my sources and (and my experience has born this out), such intent 
is a "myth" and has no basis in reality.  And my understanding is that even 
if such intent were present, carrying it out isn't possible.  

Folks "not in form" are not much different from folks 
"in form."  In fact, this is part of the reason why there are so-called
"ghosts."  The transition is not a big deal, and sometimes folks don't
notice that they are dead, especially if they are distracted or obsessed
with worrying about something.  Sort of like getting hit on the head -
they are often confused and upset, and not really tracking.  There are
lots of cases where, for instance, someone in a terrible car wreck with
their loved ones strewn around them dead on the highway will be found
wondering around looking for their hat or something equally unlikely.  
Sometimes people who die wind up kind of like that.  MOST people who die
make a very wonderful, peaceful transition, even those who die in horrible 
ways.  In my work with missing persons and related sorts of things, I have
been involved in many cases where people died extremely violent, traumatic
deaths, but their transition was peaceful.  I've encountered "icky"
things, but I've never encountered anything to be afraid of.  

I entered .6 after reading just part of .1, and was very upset to find myself
misquoted on such an important topic.  I don't think Gail is nuts.  But, as
I said before, my understanding is that so-called "ghosts" - i.e., people who
have died and haven't gone on, can't do that sort of thing or even want to.
Regarding the experience Gail recounted in .1, I don't know what that was,
but I don't think it was "someone who died and hasn't gone on."  That's just
my belief, of course.

    
    My MOM had an experience recently very similar to Gails. It was a very
    forceful wind and felt cold. She was not able to move or say anything
    and could only see a shape,but,couldnt make it out.
    
    I made some inquires with my contact Jim on the Ouija,and,found out my
    dad was trying to contact her. He had been upset about some things that
    were happening and wanted to let her know he was aware of them.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    z

When I was 10 I nearly drowned.  As I sank to the bottom of the lake, I didn't 
try to hold my breath as I had no breath to hold.  It seemed like I was just 
breathing water.  I wasn't afraid.  I was aware of loving "people" around me, 
but I didn't really *see* anyone, and I wasn't aware of the presence of anyone 
I knew, like my grampa.  There was a lovely sound, I have described it as music, 
but it wasn't really music - just lovely sound, full and rich, and full of
subtle harmonies.  There was a very bright golden light - it was a "blinding"
light in that I wasn't able to see anything else, but it wasn't painful.  I
felt like I was falling into that light, and it was wonderful.  Words are so
limp, it's hard to describe how great it was.  Peaceful, serene, yet in a way
exhilerating - euphoric is the best word, perhaps.  I don't have any memory
of what happened after that.  Obviously I was "rescued", but no one ever 
described that to me.

For me, the dividing line between "us" (in form) and "them" (not in form) is
very thin.  I have never had the slightest fear of death, even as a small
child.  I have very early memories of talking to "dead people," long before
the drowning incident, most of them were people I didn't know before.  My 
grampa came to see me when he died.  I awoke to find him beside me, and he let 
me know that he came to say goodbye, and that everything was OK, and that we'd 
be together again.  As a child, and later in the work that I do now, I have
"experienced" the deaths of others.  I see, hear, and feel what they felt.
Sometimes it is simultaneous in time, sometimes it is after their death, as 
in the work I do in locating missing persons.  Although some of the deaths,
when viewed from our perspective, were quite awful, the actual transitions I've
experienced have been quite wonderful.  They may be traumatized, emotionally
and physically, *before* they die, but most of them, as they died, 
experienced the peace and serenity, and the euphoria.  Even the ones who were 
horrible people while in form.  They gain an instantaneous understanding that 
death isn't the end.  One guy suddenly realized in quite literally a blinding 
flash that he had really screwed up this life and it was a good thing he was 
cashing in his chips early (he was in his twenties), so he could come back and 
try again.  I never believed in reincarnation until I had that vicarious 
experience.  Since then, there have been several supporting experiences.

The ones who wind up disoriented and upset did not turn towards the light that 
I saw when I drowned.  They turned their attention back to this life, because 
they are worried about someone or something here or because there is something 
or someone they don't want to let go of.  There is a moment of  choice, it
feels very literally like a physical feeling of taking a direction - of facing
towards the light and going into it, or of turning around and going away from
it back towards this life.  I think many near-death experiences are those of
people who choose to come back here, and are able to.  It seems that the ones 
who are stuck in between are the ones who turned around and tried to
come back, but were physically unable to. What they need to do is to turn
back around again, and go to the light.

Through my person and second-hand experiences, I know (inside myself) that 
death is just a transition, that we do have many lives in form, that we have
work to do while we are here, and that we also have work to do when we are
not in form.  My personal and second-hand experiences, and the experiences of
the many people I have talked to who have had near-death experiences, have all 
been very similar to the one described in the base note, and with similar 
results - the knowledge that death is a wonderful experience, and variations
on the themes of personal growth, a feeling that one's life has a purpose, etc.
  

    RE: .1
    
    
    It was never my intention to misquote Lennice in any way.  I was simply
    trying to point out that I have never had an experience, a feeling if
    you will, last for more than 2 or 3 minutes.   
    
    I apologize if I did not make that point clear.
    
    /g.

    When I was 15 my father died. A few months later my boyfriend and
    I were at a party standing on the front lawn and were hit by a drunk
    driver (I was 16 and he was 19). Although I can not recall anything
    specific about that whole night, I get these vague images of floating
    and light and being very happy and peaceful. People who were at
    the party said when they came out to see what had happened neither
    of us were breathing.  Then they said I opened my eyes, got up,
    looked around and passed out.  No one will go into specifics about
    this and I am very interested in seeing if I might be hypnotized
    into remembering exactly what happened. But anyway, my boyfriend
    was dead when the paramedics showed up. The whole time I was in
    the hospital I kept feeling like I wanted to close my eyes and see
    the light again. Also I was getting these images of holding my
    boyfriend's hand and a bright light and my hand slipping from his
    and the funny thing was we were holding hands when we were hit.
      I guess what I learned from this experience is hard to sum up...I
    used to be VERY materialistic (always said I'd only marry someone
    like a lawyer or doctor...I'm now engaged to a construction worker).
    I guess what is most noticeable is that I'm a lot easier to please
    and I think this may be because deep down I believe in "afterlife"
    now (so how important could this life be?). 

Thanks Gail.  All is well.  I just wanted to clarify what I actually said, and
my beliefs on the matter.  In rereading my responses, they sound much harsher
than I intended or than I actually felt - for which I am *very* sorry.  My
only excuse is I'm exhausted and not thinking clearly. 

I was referring to:

<<  ...this *presence* of some sort knew I was sensitive and would be after me.
<<  I never beleived that until Lennice pointed that out to me last week.

I just wanted to clarify that I didn't say I thought any "presences" have ever been
"after you", because I most emphatically don't believe that happens.  (We never
talked about the incident mentioned in .1)  I just pointed out the obvious,
that you are sensitive - as evidenced by your contact with Celia.  Again, I'm
*so* sorry for sounding so cranky!  

z

    Thank you for sharing your experiences.
    
    I'm always lightly touched with a quiet wonder at the powerful effect
    that near-death experiences seem to have on people.  I've also noticed
    (as others have commented on) that near-death experiences are always
    very positive as opposed to out-of-body experiences which can be either
    positive or negative.
    
    But regardless of the type of experience (NDE or OBE), they both seem
    to frequently have a very profound effect on the person experiencing
    them.
    
    Thank you.
    
    Meredith
    

    Re .13
    
    A few months ago, I read Michael Sabom's "Recollections of Death" (I
    think, I'm working from memory on title and author).  According to that
    study, NDEs were *usually* "celestial" but there were a few "infernal"
    ones too.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Re .14 
    
    Can you remember what the "infernal" ones were like, as described in
    the book you mention? I have only heard of the standard NDE's with the
    white light and feeling of peace, etc.
     I'd be interested to read about the other kind......
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Marilyn

    Re .15
    
    As I said, I'm working from memory on this, and my memory is hazy.
    For what it's worth, I recall someone finding himself trapped in a
    dismal, static place full of despairing folk, one of whom urged him to
    get out and stay out if at all possible.  I also recall that, in some
    otherwise positive NDEs, the subject glimpsed what they took to be
    groups of "darkened spirits" trudging about in their gloom.
    
    It's been some time since I read the book I mentioned, and I don't own
    it, but I will try to verify the title and author from "Books In
    Print."
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    Re: .0
    
    I also had what I think was a NDE.  It happened about 25 years ago, 
    which was before it was really talked about.  When I tried to explain
    it to people at the time (when I was about nine years old) everyone 
    dismissed it as my vivid imagination.  But I know it was real.  I
    remember it as clear as day...my Dad drove me and my sisters to the
    dentist.  We would all go at the same time for whatever needed to be
    done.  At the time I was having fillings done.  That was back when
    "gas" was somewhat new I believe, and much different from the way it is
    used today (today it is mixed with oxygen, back then it was straight
    gas).  Because I was having extensive drilling I was given gas and
    novocaine.  What happened is that the gas was applied via mask as
    is done today, but back then there was a small rubber ball on a tube
    to squeeze to bring the gas up to be inhaled through the mask.  I
    remember breathing it in and when I became too relaxed, my hand would
    stop squeezing the ball, and I'd be "out" until it wore off, and I'd
    have to wake up (from the pain) and breathe more.  What they found out
    later was that it was very dangerous to breathe that amount of straight
    gas, and people had many problems because of it.  What I believe
    happened is that I breathed too much because I was nervous about the
    drilling.  I recall blacking out and "waking up" in a long tunnel
    filled with bright red light.  I was aware that my body was there but I
    did not seem to be attached to it.  I could hear my father in the
    waiting room telling the other girls to keep quiet and speaking quietly
    to them, but I couldn't see them.  I felt frightened of leaving him, or
    of him leaving without me, and it seemed like forever before I
    reconnected with my body and blacked out again and "woke up" back in
    the office.  It really seemed like I had left for a long time.  My Dad
    was SO surprised when I rushed out to hug him, as if I hadn't seen him
    for days.
    
    The thing I've always wondered about is why was it red light?  Does
    anyone know if this has any significance?  All of the near death
    stories I've heard about recount memories of a dazzling white light. 
    This was definitely red.  I wasn't really afraid of wherever I was,
    just of leaving my father and sisters.  I think because of my age it
    really didn't have any impact on my life at the time.  But many times
    I've thought about the experience.  Any comments? 
    
    Nancy

    Re.17
    
    Hi Nancy,
    
    Was the red color surreal, or was it a red that you can see in the
    physical world here?
    
    The reason I ask is that a couple of days ago I was reading about
    color in the world beyond the senses and it said that while the colors
    here are beautiful, the colors beyond the senses here are so incredibly
    beautiful that they are beyond description.
    
    Cindy

re last 2:

The color I saw was golden, like sunlight, definitely not white. 
but you are right Cindy, it was almost beyond description. 

Regarding 9 being too young for it to have made a difference in your life,
not at all.  I was 10.  I have worked with many who were younger.  

    Cindy,
    
    I don't know how else to describe this, but to say the red light
    seemed "alive"...many shades of read moving and somewhat pulsating. To
    try to give you a visual image, picture if you've seen photos of the
    suns activity in a closeup.  
    
    Lennice, 
    
    Could you tell me in what way this could have affected a child, and
    what do you mean that you've "worked with many who were younger"?  I
    don't mean to be slow, but I wonder if there is some obvious thing I'm
    missing...what I mean is when you are growing up, all you know is what
    you know, maybe it did effect me but I have nothing to compare it to so
    don't know that it was "different" than other children.  
    
    Anything either of you can impart would be helpful.  If I close my eyes
    now, I can picture it all clearly as if it just happened...it seems
    weird in a way.
    
    Nancy
    

Nancy - system's been down all day, can't answer at length.  I've written
about this somewhere, I thought earlier in this string.  There were 2 notes
going at the same time on the same subject, maybe it was there - anybody
remember the # of the other one?

If you can't find it/want a more detailed answer, ask again - not trying to
brush you off.

z

    re: .9
    
    Lennice,
    
    I read back over this file again, and found your response in .9 - thank
    you.  I had read it before but just re-read it again several times.
    After the near-drowning incident it became evident to you that you had
    powers.  *How* did you know you had them is what I wonder?  I read back
    over the introductions note at the beginning of the conference to see
    if you wrote in, but if you did I must have missed it.  Could you tell
    us in metaphysical terms "what you are"?  Is clairvoyant the term?  
    
    The reason I ask is because I've had several psychic readings and each
    time (by two different people) I was told I have "sensitivities".  I
    did have a very traumatic and difficult childhood, and wonder if this
    has overshadowed the possibility of my being enlightened the way you
    were.  Apologies if I'm not terribly clear on this, it is still
    difficult to look back on this time period.  I have only recently put
    this trauma behind me, and am finally feeling free to search.  I wonder
    how we may have each had a similar experience, with such different
    outcomes....you immediately at age 10 began having some form of psychic
    experiences, while I am just discovering the possibilities 25 years
    later.
    
    Nancy
    

Nancy,

A couple of disclaimers:  I don't think I have any special "powers" - I believe
we all have the ability to "tune in" to more than is commonly believed.  And
it wasn't that I drowned and then *whammo* I was suddenly seeing through walls
and telling the future.  My childhood memories are a little hazy, I'm not sure
the time frame of some things, but I am sure that *some* of my experiences
happened many years before I drowned.  This stuff is usually very subtle, 
we are all constantly perceiving more than we are aware of - it isn't a matter
of "having the power" or "not having the power" , it is a matter of being
*aware* of things when they happen, and then, through awareness, further
refining your ability to be aware. 

A few years ago there was a TV show called "That's Incredible."  I was only
inspired to holler "that's incredible!" twice.  Once was while watching some
guys tie bungi cords around their ankles and jump off the Royal Gorge bridge.
The other time was watching a belly dancer - and *what* a belly dancer.  She
lay on the floor on her back with a roll of quarters lined up across her 
tummy.  She flipped that whole role of quarters over *twice*, neatly, all
edges still touching.  Then she flipped them over one at a time.  THEN she
flipped *every other one*!!!!  Now, I know for a fact that I have the same
basic equipment that she does.  I even learned belly dancing once upon a 
time.  I don't have the *foggiest* idea which muscles to use to flip quarters
like that, or even how to find them.  She must have been incredibly patient -
it had to have been a matter of *refining her awareness* - paying exquisite
attention to her tummy muscles, finding out which muscles did what, and
once she localized the feelings, refining and refining and refining her
awareness of those muscles.   Trust me, what I do isn't nearly that hard.
We can all be quarter flippers - it's a matter of paying attention, refining
our awareness.

z

Addendum:  I'm a little sensitive (pardon the pun) about what I do.  If you
want to we can take this chat offline - send mail to SOKO::ZICKEFOOSE.

Oh Lennice!

I'm not sure whether you were reading this notesfile when *that* discussion
took place, but....



Is a quarter flipper a class lower, or a class higher, than a dingbat?

:-):-)

Arie

Arie,

I do get the feeling that you are referring to a discussion that I missed -
but one it would be good to catch up on... pointers, anyone?

    
    Most definitely higher.
    
    Cindy (a.k.a....well, you know...)

    
    re: .22 Nancy
    
    regarding, traumatic and difficult childhoods ...
    >I did have a very traumatic and difficult childhood, and wonder if this
    >has overshadowed the possibility of my being enlightened the way you
    >were.  
    
    I haven't got any hard statistics to back this up, but my experience
    has been the opposite, that traumatic childhoods bring out 
    'enlightenment'/psychic stuff rather than overshadowing it.
    
    just a thought.
    
    alison
    
    

    I don't think that trauma 'brings out' these attributes. I believe
    that, like serious illness and other major hurdles, these are our
    'dragons' to face up to. Like any self-respecting dragon, they are
    dangerous and, though some survive the battle, others are defeated
    (at least temporarily). The survivors are strengthened by their
    ordeal, and may indeed exhibit signs of that strength in improved
    abilities in many different areas of their life.
    
    Brian
    

     re: .29
    
    hmmmm - bad word choice on my part.  What I meant to say was that
    severe trauma and/or abuse pushs a person to new limits in order
    to survive,  that it is possible that all humans have the potential
    to evolve into psychically oriented beings,  and that the abuse
    causes one to cross that threshold and develop those skills in
    order to survive.
    
    Example,  I as a small child could not physically fight off an
    adult male attacker.  But I could develop a skill to 'sense' when
    it was potentially dangerous to be findable buy the adult male.
    Also, while I as a small child could not physically escape an
    abuse situation by an adult male,  I could develop the skill to
    leave my body, and possibly develop a skill to psychically cause
    the adult enough discomfort that the abuse situation would be stopped.
    
    That's what I meant to say.
    
    alison
    

 re .13 - 15 infernal NDEs


 Raymond A. Moody Jr mentions this in his book THE LIGHT BEYOND.

 to quote from his book.

  "Of all the people studied by the Evergreen researchers, there was only one 
'hellish' NDE, which they define as an NDE that contains fear, panic, or 
anger and may also contain visions of demonic creatures. In that one, a man 
reported that he was ushered into hell by mistake during his 2nd of 3 NDEs. 
His is an enlightening and entertaining interview: "

Respondent: The 2nd experience was different, I went downstairs ! Downstairs 
was dark, people were howling, [there was] fire, they wanted a drink of 
water... Then somebody came to me, I don't know who it was, he pushed me 
aside and said, "you're not coming down here. You're going back upstairs"

Interviewer: Did he actually use those words ?

Respondent: Yeah. "You're going back upstairs. We don't want you down here 
because you're not mean enough."

Interviewer: Did you first experience the blackness and then..

Respondent: Pitch black. First we went down... it was pitch black.

interviewer: Did you go down a tunnel ?

Respondent: It was not a tunnel, more than a tunnel, a great big one. I was 
floating down....There was a man there waiting, he says, "he's not the one."

Interviewer: Could you see the people that were yelling ?

Respondent: I seen a lot of people down there, screaming, howling...

Interviewer: Were they also in clothes ?

Respondent: No, no, no. No clothes at all.

Interviewer: They were nude ?

Respondent: Yeah.

Interviewer: And there were how many, would you guess ?

Respondent: Oh, Christ, you can't count them.

Interviewer: Thousands ?

Respondent: I'd say about, almost a million to me.

Interviewer: Oh really ? And they were all really miserable ?

Respondent: They were miserable and hateful. They were asking me for water. 
They didn't have water.

Interviewer: And there was a presence that was watching over them ?

Respondent: Yes he was there. He had his little horns on...

Interviewer: He had horns on ! Do... who do you think... do you recognize 
this person "

Respondent: Oh yes. I know him anywhere.

Interviewer: Who was it ?

Respondent: The devil himself !


 "Experiences like these are rare ones. The Evergreen researchers combined 
their research with mine and Ring's and found that only 0.3 % described their
NDEs as being 'Hellish' "


 Background on "Evergreen Study" :

 "...Involved 49 residents of NW U.S. . The people were interviewed by the 
researchers (James Lindley, Sethyn Bryan, and Bob Conley of Evergreen 
State College in Olympia, Wa.) using a standard method. First, the NDEers 
were allowed to give an uninterupted account of their encounter with death. 
Then, after their narrative was completed, a series of standard questions 
about the experience were asked."

" The questions were the same used by Kenneth Ring, a Connecticut Psychologist 
who also examined the NDEs of dozens of people and published the results in 
his book(Life at Death: A Scientific Investigation of the Near-Death 
Experience, 1980) His method of questioning NDEers has become the accepted 
method of discovering whether  a person has had an NDE. His questions are 
neutral- up to a point-then gently probing. The Evergreen researchers used 
the same questions in order to compare their results with those of Ring."


 If anybody has any interest in the specific questions I can enter them here.
(kind of wordy so I'll wait to see if there is any interest)


One other side note, in his book, Moody says that most people don't fear 
death after they've had a NDE. They usually appreciate love and knowledge
and alter their lives so that they can learn as much as possible and focus on
Love instead of material objects. He also mentions the presence of a supreme
being of light. This being radiates total love and understanding. His job is
to take people on a 'life review'. closest description is a kind of 'this was
your life' and re perceive immeadiatley the effects of your actions upon the
people in your life. You also feel what you did to others. So if you hurt 
someone you feel their hurt, if you loved them you feel their love.

 "ALL the people who go through this come away believing that the most 
important thing in their life is love."

" For most of them , the second most important thing in life is knowledge. As 
they see life scenes in which they are learning things, the Being points out 
that one of the things they can take with them at death is knowledge. The 
other is Love"

"When people come back they have a thirst for knowledge. Frequently, NDEers 
become avid readers, even if they weren't very fond of books before, or they 
enroll in school to study a different field than the one they are in."


 I was just wondering if this 'clicks' with any DEJAVUers who have had NDEs.



 Bob

    
    Bob,
    
      I havnt had a nde,but,have been communicating with the other side,I
    believe. The desription of the positive experience matches what I have
    been told,but,the negative one doesnt. I have been told that "hell" is
    definately dark,but,is COLD rather than the traditional view of being
    HOT. A rather piercing coldness,and,that what you see is only the light
    emminating from the souls that are there,a rather spooky site. There
    are passageways but you could penetrate the walls if you tried,however,
    doing that would result in a type of punishment,via telepathy,that is
    very unpleasant. There are areas that are restricted,and,a tunnel that
    leads to the upper levels,which is used to bring souls back and forth.
    This tunnel is only accessable by those envoys from the higher level.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re:  .32 
    
    Michael,
    
    Your entry sounds like you've "heard it from the horses mouth".  I was
    under the impression by all that I've read here that there is a
    "beyond", but not really in the form of heaven or hell.  Do you mean to 
    say that you've communicated with spirits who claim to be in "hell"? 
    If so, do you think that the heaven or hell idea comes from what the
    person believes when they are in body form?  Or are you saying they 
    actually tried to verify the existence of heaven or hell?
    
    Nancy
    

    
    Nancy,
    
        I can only speak from my own experience and beliefs. I have been
    using the Ouija board for about 4 years now,and,have what I believe,is
    a good repore with my contact. Its a matter of whether I believe what
    he tells me,of course,this is based on a mutual trust. Its a long story
    and,a lot of my story is scattered through-out this conference in
    various notes. Summing it up,I believe,based on my work with him,in
    most of what he tells me. Its like having a source,and,trusting
    it,based on experience with it. Several things have happened that has
    strenghtened my trust in him.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
     

    
    Kristin,
    
    
        I need to know your fathers birthdate. This was requested by my
    contact.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    
      In these studies were there any people who after experiencing NDE
    (the positive type),had taken their own lives later to return to someting 
    so wonderful?
    
                                                         
     
     curious,
    
    bill
    
        

    Re .36
    
    I have not heard of any such suicides.  On the other hand, the NDE
    literature DOES include some reports from failed suicide attempts and
    from positive NDE subjects who report getting a bit of a "guided tour,"
    that suicide is apparently very likely to induce a negative experience.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    re: 37
    
     Thanks for the reply. I will remember it the next time i am severely
    depressed.
    
    -Bill
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I just finished reading "Closer to the Light", a book about NDE
    experiences of children.  I was most interested in the book from the
    aspect of suicide.  One child reported that people who committed
    suicide were in a "holding area", unfortunately nothing more was
    explained.  Two other children as teenagers attempted suicide. Both
    were told that they had to go back because it was not their time, by a
    "light" that was friendly but not at all sympathetic.
    
    I have to wonder why suicide is not considered to be the time to go. 
    Perhaps that is how the persons life is to end, so what happens to
    these souls?
    
    I noticed in .34? that DNEAST::PUSHARD_MIKE communicates with the other
    side.  Would it be possible for you to ask your contact what specifically 
    happens to those that take their own lives.  For the depressed person, 
    maybe the other side is better.

    
    REF -1
    
    
     I have dealt with this question of suicide before,in one instance,a
    friends mom,who was very sick. It is not an acceptable means for ending
    ones life. The "holding area",spoken of,is an area where you will
    receive counciling,and,stay for a period of time,before moving on to a
    higher plane. Usually,in terms of our timeframe,most suicides,cases
    that have no other circumstances attached,remain for a period of
    weeks,to months,according to the circumstances. Each case will be
    looked at individually. I have not been in contact recently because of
    the Mideast crisis,which is taking up a lot of my contacts time. I am
    very sad about what may happen there,and,because of recent activity in
    the spirit world,it doesnt look good. Taking anothers life is not good
    either,even if in War. Many people believe that in War,its OK,but,it
    isnt.
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    re: .39 (Dwyer)
    
          Those are very thought provoking issues.  And, there aren't
    simple answers to cover it all; however, there are a couple of 
    points I'd like to make.  For starters, looking at it from a
    "cosmic" point of view (i.e., perhaps from the higher consciousness
    vantage point) *all* death is a "suicide."  That is, all death
    is a made decision.   Some of these deaths are for growth, many,
    if not most, are from fear choices ("I've done all I can and now
    I look forward to something new and exciting" versus "I can't
    stand this world and the pain it has brought me.")
          Who says that suicide, the kind that is used as an escape,
    is not valid?  Society has deemed it so.  But only the individual
    can judge that for him/herself, really.  The sad part, for me, 
    at least, is that most of the escapes aren't necessary.  Very
    few situations are totally uncorrectable, although admittedly
    probabilities can reach unlikely levels.  What I mean is that as
    we learn how to consciously direct our reality, as we take more
    and more responsibility for it, we can then know that we can also
    change it from something not helpful to something beneficial.  
          A couple of years ago I knew a man (hardly at all...mostly
    I know his sister) who learned he had AIDS.  He spent a few months
    assessing his life, finding some understanding, and then "giving
    up" and dying very rapidly.  He could have changed that reality
    (I know many of you don't think so, but I'm firm in this belief)
    by working to unravel the thoughts/feelings/beliefs/attitudes/choices/
    decisions that got him there and replacing them with new "stuff"
    to allow him to proceed with life, but he didn't.  This is different
    than jumping off a bridge, of course.  But it does show a narrow
    line between "escaping" this reality and looking forward to another.
    When do we "cut our losses?"  
         Escaping something in this lifetime is not really dealing with
    it.  If most of us had total LIFE recall, most of us would probably
    be running around swearing all the time..."DAmn, I thought I left
    that behind back in Mesopotamia!"  Because karma does exist until
    it is released (forgiven.)  Walking away or turning our back from
    something is NOT dealing with it.  (Sometimes it's necessary or 
    massively helpful to "temporarily" step aside...but with full intention
    of going back to the situation emotionally/mentally and *then*
    dealing with it...understanding, releasing, forgiving.)
         Does this help?
    
    Frederick
     

    re: .40
    
    Who does the counseling, and why the period of time?  Is this
    counseling to determine why suicide was committed to determine where in
    the next life one will reside (heaven, hell, ...)?
    
    re: .41 
    
    Suicide is a way of dealing with the problem.  When other efforts have
    proved to be fruitless, suicide is a valid option.  The question
    becomes, is the act of commiting suicide a means to resolve a short
    term problem (living for x number of years), only an exchange for a more
    miserable life that would have been avoided if death occurred naturally?
    
      -- Rick

    re: .42,  I sure hope this is a philosophical question, and that
    	someone is not relying on NOTES replies to talk them out of suicide.
    
    You're absolutely right.  The ultimate freedom is your freedom to
    choose the time and means of your own physical death, and thus
    to determine its *meaning*.
    
    You can't choose whether to live or die, only the time and the means.  
    As your last physical act, it represents you for eternity.  
    
    The idea that your spirit may persist would not
    prevent your last act from having great significance, both spiritually
    and psychologically (as a symbol to others).  
    
    Your choice to leave this life should not depend on what waits beyond,
    whatever that may be, in my opinion. 
    
    If you fully understand that you can make that ultimate choice at any 
    time, making it under duress may cease to seem so attractive.  All
    we're talking about is "pain" and "time", both of which are relatively
    minor compared to the significance of your entire life and how it is
    lived.   Step outside your life for a moment, after your imagined
    suicide, and see if you like the picture your life story paints for 
    others.  Is it a lesson to show others what kind of life (and death) to 
    avoid, or is it a model for others to follow ?
    
    	kindly,
    
    	Todd

    
    Well,there are many other spirits whos job it is,to council others.
    These spirits come from higher planes,which are connected to the lower
    planes through tunnels(the light tunnels). The counciling is for the
    individual spirit,to let them know what has happened,why they are
    there,what will happen in the future. The time varies because of the
    seriousness of the suicide. Its a witholding of priviledges for the
    purpose of holding you responsible for your actions. God has stated
    that this is not acceptable and that there is a period of restitution
    and reflection needed,hence,the time will vary. Not only is counciling
    involved,but,the representative from the higher plane must assess the
    case,and,report to his helpers,to decide what course will be taken. You
    see,there is a lot of work to do,even in the spirit world.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Mike,

    In a previous note you mentioned not being in touch with your contact
    because he was busy with the Persian Gulf crisis.  Can you tell me
    what their (spirits/contacts) role is (i.e. are they getting prepared
    for possible deaths, are they comforting/couseling some of the soldiers
    currently, are they trying to figure out way to avoid war, etc..)?

    By the way, I'm more of a reader of DEJAVU than an active participant.
    I want you to know that your wisdom awes and comforts me.  I wish you
    the best always.

    Thanks,

    Jennifer    

    
    Jennifer,
    
       Thank-you for your kind words,I am glad to know that you get some
    comfort from what I report. My contact, JIM,is sort of a "manager",on
    his level,thus,is called upon quite a bit. To really know what he
    is,and,does,would require quite a long explanation,which you can find
    scattered thru this conference in various places. To explain quickly:
    He is on the level christians call "hell",which is low on the energy
    scale. His main work is to assist "Satan",and,recriut followers for
    him. He is in charge when "Satan",is away. Satan has been in the
    Mideast off and on since the crisis began,and,JIM has been running
    things in his absence. They are expecting a war there,and,will therefor
    be receiving a high volume of spirits on their level. My relationship
    with JIM is a bit unusual,in that,JIM believes me to be his son in a
    previous life. I have been working with JIM,and,ROBERT (one of Jesus'
    workers)for 4 years now. Robert is trying to convert JIM,and,I have
    been helping. Satan has a powerfull hold on him,and,if we could get JIM
    on our side,he would be invaluable help to us. Despite claims from both
    sides that "GOD",is in their corner,they have a surprise coming as to
    who really is in their corner,and,it isnt "GOD". So,you see,what
    happens in our World has a profound effect in the spirit world too. I
    hope this helps explain things a little bit.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    Those who are following the current conflict in the Persian Gulf may
    be interested in note 1387 - The Globe of Light Meditation. I created
    a new note, so as not to further clutter this one.
    
    	- Bill