Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    WGBX in Boston (Channel 44) is currently showing a series
    of lectures by Joseph Campbell about the Transformation
    of Myth.
    
    Saturday at 4 PM,
    repeated Sunday at 8 PM.
    
    Two lectures (out of 14) have already been broadcast.

    
    
    Thanks for the pointer Bruce.  I'll definitely get these on
    tape.  
    
    Joseph Campbell's work has certainly assisted me in reaching a
    point of trusting and valuing what emerges from very deep within
    me in the form of visions and through my imagination.  It is at
    the depths of the soul where our own mythical journey begins
    and is experienced.  And I am always profoundly touched by the
    meaningful and beautiful work that is created and offered through
    the human experience.  So "Thanks Joseph for having been here with
    us and for sharing your insights and your visions".
    
    Carole

    
    Thanks to Joseph Campbell, I'm now following my bliss.
    
    A wonderful way to live.
    
    Love,
    
    Cindy

    The Frank Llyod Wright of mythology.
    The man blew me away!
    Now that he's passed over, I'm gonna start channelling him ;')
     
    Jay

    
    The power of this man's mind blows me away.  I feel really drained
    after reading some of his stuff.  And he's a bit easier to read, even,
    than C.G.Jung - which is *really* mentally draining.  At least for me.
    I don't always know what he's trying to get at, but when I do grasp it,
    life becomes a better place....if I give it a couple days....it's a
    long story....
    
    Guy

    
    	The base note and all the replies assume the reader knows who
    "Joseph Campbell" even was. For all I know you're talking about the
    founder of the Mormon church, though it doesnt make any sense that
    ch 44 would have taped lectures of him I spose...
    
    	Could someone place a reply stating who he was/is what he did/does
    for the "unenlightened"?
    
    	Joe Jasniewski

    
    Joseph Campbell mostly studied mythology.  He wrote quite a few books
    on the subject.  Perhaps most notably, "The Hero with a Thousand
    Faces."  His work in this book seems to center around identifying the
    universal traits found in the mythologies of even the most isolated
    cultures.  In other words, the man was trying to distill down the 
    patterns of what it means to be human.  He (I assume) also taught
    classes on mythology.
    
    Not to shortchange the guy - "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" is all
    I've had the pleasure of reading.  I know he has written many others.
    
    Guy

I'd have to say that Joseph Campbell has been the most influential on my present
life.  In his in interview with Bill Moyers in "The Power of Myth" series he 
said something about people wanting to know what the meaning of life was and 
that there is no meaning, life just is.  He also spoke of enternity.  He said 
enternity is not a long time, it has nothing to do with time.  These two ideas 
stuck with me.

I'm also following my bliss and it feels good.

		Dave

    Joseph Campbell spent a lifetime studying the world's many
    mythologies, and extracted the common elements to show that
    our mythologies, rather than being idle primitive fantasies
    or literal histories of religious fact, are actually
    cosmologies that reveal the relationship of each of us with
    the divine, and that our rituals are the techniques that
    serve to remind us of and enable us to experience that
    connection.

His work was the subject of the recent PBS series _The Power of Myth_

He wrote:

     Hero With a Thousand Faces
     The Masks of God
     Inner Reaches of Outer Space
     Flight of the Gander
     Myths to Live By

     and many others...


    

    Re: several
    
    It's nice to hear about all of this bliss!!!  :-) :-) :-)
    
    Jerri

    Although I had heard of Joe Campbell and his work a couple of years
    ago, I just recently had the opportunity to pick up a couple of his
    books and dove right in.  
    
    The first book I opened, AN OPEN LIFE, (I believe the latest one out) is
    a collection of interviews from 1974 - 1987.  After reading maybe 4
    pages, I was so "vitalized" that I felt literally compelled to put the 
    book down and record a personal myth of my own on paper.  I sensed
    in reading the introduction to this book alone, that this man would
    become a mentor for me.  As I put the book down and picked up my pen to
    write, he had indeed attained that status.
    
    One idea that I find particularly energizing is the way in which he
    re-validates the power of myth for me.  In my early teens I loved
    reading stories of mythology - anything I could get my hands on I read.
    
    After awhile I lost the relevancy that myth had to *real* life.  Joseph
    Campbell reawakened that recognition for me that I *knew* many years
    ago.  (Ah ha!  I was right all along!  I knew it had meaning!  I just
    didn't see the connection clearly before.)
    
    I like the way he explains it...something like:  The ultimate intention
    of Myth was not necessarily to provide < answers >, but rather to
    provide < insights > which then foster the wisdom to discover the  
    answers.  So I've now come to view the essence of myth as being the 
    primordial "stuff", the undeveloped yet fertilized embryo, from whence
    answers are incubated and hatched.
    
    Joe --- you're quite a guy!  Keep up the good work!  XXOO
    
    Karen
    

	For years, as a child and throughout adolescence, myth to me was
        no more than, "And the moral to the story is...".  Thanks Joe
        for opening up my windows and doors.  Through your work I now see 
        and understand more of what's inside.  

	Terry

    Among many other writers Joe Campbell affected me deeply. His insights
    into mythology provided a point of perspective which created a
    holistic gestalt of WoMankind's mythologies. Specifically mythology is
    the collective dream which generates religion. And more importantly
    mythology is someone else's older, more archaic religion when viewed
    from modern contexts. Today's religion will be tomorrows mythology.
    
    Joe did many different things among them translating some Eastern
    texts into English, can't remember their names now. 
    
    Sometime ago he visited a museam which displayed prominent artifacts of
    medicine men and shamans around the world. This started him upon a
    twelve year spree of studying and writing about primitive cultures in
    the Americas and Sibera. From there his studies expanded into Africa
    and other places. 
    
    I profited greatly from the MASKS OF GOD series. This is a four volume
    set which functions for mythology much the same way studies in
    comparative religions do.
    
    Joe taught at a womens school and married a young dancer while he
    taught there. He followed his bliss.
    
    His insights into human nature stimulate expansion of thought.

    It is more than a bit ironic that Joseph Campbell died in 1986 before
    his greatest fame was acheived. He probably wouldn't care.
    
    "The Power of Myth" is also a large format paperback that was put
    out in conjunction with the PBS series.
    
    Some Campbellisms that stick in my brain: (inexact quotes)
    
    "All religions are metaphorically true and literally false."
    
    "Myths are clues to the potentialities of human life." 
    
    -roger
    
    p.s. Joe Jas is thinking of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon
    Church.
    

    There is a highly critical opinion of Joseph Campbell and the
    Power of Myth:
    
                              The Faces of Joseph Campbell
                              by Brendan Gill
                              New York Review, September 28, 1989,
                              pp 16-20
    
    
    It's long;  I will probably not type it in.

    6.24
    98.9 .10 .15
    354.17
    389.17 .18
    423.5 .6
    510.39 .42 .45
    675.21
    826.18
    827.37
    880.7
    978.16
    990.3
    993.2
    1023.4
    1042.13
    1070.0
    1084.33
    1102.13
    1127 lots
    1139 lotser :-)
    
John D.

    
    Perhaps 'bliss' is 'ongoing enlightenment' by another name.
    
    Cindy

    Re. Ch. 44 presentation by Joseph Campbell/ shown on sat. and
    sun./offer college credit at some local colleges. Is he accurate?
    He is very bias ; anti-semetic,anti-christian, anti-bible, old and
    new testaments.  He is a learned man on a lot of thing as some have
    pointed out, but he does sneer at the above. Facts are facts regard-
    less of its source. Sargon story copies the moses story of the bible,
    because moses preceeds Sargon. The Sumer acount of the "fall" of
    man is a copy. JosephC. said there is no fall of man, no hell, no
    heaven all a myth. Another "great teacher says they are fact,Namely
    Jesus. We do have a choice of great teachers don't we. Jesus said
    in John chapter 4, to a Samaritan woman ,"You worship what you do
    not know" Joseph did a good job on the shemites influence on Samaria
    and other areas these are a few I disagree. 
    Opinions are free.
    

    re: .18
    
    Although I didn't see the most recent program, I have seen Joseph
    Campbell in other programs.  I don't find him biased or sneering at 
    all...rather the opposite.  I find that he treats ALL myths, legends
    and religions as equally important and valuable.
    
    Regarding one culture "copying" another because one preceded the
    other--first of all, Campbell traces the development of myths and shows
    how new cultures grow from old cultures, and how societies will
    integrate old religions into their current religions.  Secondly, in many
    cases, what is interesting to note is how very similar myths and
    legends will spring up, apparently autonomously, in different parts of
    the world and at different times.  Hence Jung's theory ofthe
    "collective unconscious."
    
    Yes, Joseph Campbell apparently considered heaven and hell and the
    bible myths.  So?  What is your point?  
    
    Mary

    Reply to .19, Mary, and in opposition to .18, Carter,
    
    I agree with Mary completely. Because Joe was not a Christian some
    Christians have branded him Satanic along with Care Bears and Smurfs.
    
    Silly thing really, no one need be xenophobic, nor afraid of others
    mythologies.

    
    The word 'ethnocentrism' also comes to mind here.
    
    Cindy

    Reply to .21, Cindy,
    
    That's a word I get in trouble for using. B^)

    Also, .18 is factually incorrect.
    
    Sargon of Agade *did* live long before Moses, not the other way
    around as .18 would like it to be.  There is also internal evidence
    for this:  Both stories speak of a basket of bulrushes sealed with
    bitumen and pitch, but bitumen was unknown in Egypt until the sixth
    century bce or later, so it's clear that the Egypt/Moses story is
    the copy.
    
    Again, the Sumerian legends are older than the Bible ones.  (Actually,
    the Sumerian ones are older than the Akkadian ones, which are older
    than the Babylonian ones, which the Bible ones are based on.)  Heck,
    I have a picture of a seal impression of a woman, a fruiting tree,
    and a serpent which is about 1,000 years older than Moses.
    
    							Ann B.

    Re: <<< Note 1139.18 by DASXPS::CARTER >>>
        
   > Re. Ch. 44 presentation by Joseph Campbell/ shown on sat. and
   > sun./offer college credit at some local colleges. Is he accurate?
  
    Pretty close as I can see. Archeology and human based sciences do
    advance though.
     
   > He is very bias ; anti-semetic,anti-christian, anti-bible, old and
   > new testaments.  He is a learned man on a lot of thing as some have
   > pointed out, but he does sneer at the above. 
    
    Joe did not ever "sneer" at any time that I ever saw him talk. This
    sounds like a projection of yours, not his.
    
   > Facts are facts regard- less of its source. Sargon story copies the
   > moses story of the bible, because moses preceeds Sargon.
    
    Ann's right on this one. Sometimes some people, especially those
    programmed into tight loops, can't deal with "facts". Now there are
    archeological discoveries of whole communities dating to some 6450 BCE.
    I guess that's a little to early to deal with as the Universe was
    created some 1000+ years later.  Sad isn't it? Nobody was around to
    inhabit these longlived cultures.
    
   > The Sumer acount of the "fall" of man is a copy. 
    
    Sorry not true as Ann has demonstrated. Perhaps you might want to find
    out where, what area, the mythical Abraham came from?? Then cross
    reference those cultures with data and location charts. See the
    movement of culture?
    
   > JosephC. said there is no fall of man, no hell, no heaven all a myth.
   > Another "great teacher says they are fact,Namely Jesus. We do have a
   > choice of great teachers don't we. 
    
    Big deal. I say that too. 
    
    Be it known from this day forward that, I, the Ever Glorous Episkipope
    Mikie? has declared heaven canceled, or at least put on hold. I talked
    to the God entity last night. I pointed out that heaven was lacking in
    some very important things. Sex for one. He agreed, but wouldn't budge
    on _not_ using condoms. I guess he has stock in condom companies. So
    heaven is put on *hold* till further notice. Don't call us. We'll call
    you.
    
   > Jesus said in John chapter 4, to a Samaritan woman ,"You worship what
   > you do not know" Joseph did a good job on the shemites influence on
   > Samaria and other areas these are a few I disagree.  Opinions are free.
    
    This is a two edge sword you know. In assuming we makes asses of you
    and me.
    
    Wanna' try another program?? B^) Discordia is awaiting your arrival.

    a few notes back....
    
    O.K. What does ethnocentrism mean?
    
    -Arthur 

    I believe Joseph Campbell was one of the most intelligent men of
    our time.  He traced many myths to pre-christian times; among them
    were themes that reoccurred over and over in different times and
    civilizations, such as the virgin birth.
                 
    He was a great man and a great scholar.  He warned that society and 
    government were tools created by mankind, but that now the tool
    threatens to use the man, to alter or change the nature of man to 
    benefit the tool.  He said to resist this dehumanization in every way
    we can. 
    
    Joseph Campbell had more influence on me than any other writer.  
    
    Mary

RE: .25 (-Arthur)
    
    It means interpreting things overly much from the context of your own
    culture.
    
    					Topher

    Topher,
    
    Thankyou for the definition...
    
    -Arthur

    
    I first saw the word on a wall in the Australian Museum in Sydney a
    few months ago.
    
    There is a big push toward integration and acceptance, as opposed to 
    obliteration of cultures different from your own, down there (downunder).
    
    Cindy

    re; Ann, I will look up Sargon of Agade, I was thinking of Sargon
    the Assyrian .
    re; Morgan , sorry to have upset you.

    re: Cindy
    
    And, ethnocentrism is a form of bias, and all bias blinds.
    
    -roger
    

    Uh no -.1
    
    bias is a blind alley.  That is all.  The venture down the alley
    can be enlightening so long as one turns around to discover the
    whole of the maze.
    
    The danger becomes making the alley the "right" alley; hopelessly
    going back and forth in the name of pride.
    
    fwiw
    
    l

Regarding the Garden of Eden myth, does anyone know if Campbell anywhere
discusses older myths involving serpents, in which they were depicted as
symbols of life and immortality -- as well as being associated with women
-- rather than as symbols of evil (which is pretty much woman's fate as
well in the Garden of Eden story)? This biblical "twist" on earlier
symbolism has always intrigued me. 

Dorian

re: .33

    I don't think that JC anywhere suggests that snakes are evil, not
    even in the Graden of Eden myth.  In this myth he suggests that
    the snake is a symbol of one of the aspects of the Great Mother,
    in fact, the entire Garden is symbolic of the Uroboros, the Womb
    of the Great Mother.  The the creation of woman from man's rib and
    the eating of the apple and "the knowledge of good and evil", are
    symbolic of the birth of opposites (the ego).  Nothing evil about it.
    Just the first phase in the development/evolution of consciousness
    individually or collectively. 

    As far as other myths, there are many involving serpents of one sort
    or another.  For example, in the Pacific islands where snakes aren't
    to common, the myths talk of sea serpents.  You can read the first
    volume of the four volume _Masks of God_, titled _Primitive Mythology_
    if you'd like more detail.

    > -< When the serpents were the good guys >-

    They always are (and they're not "guys", rather they are symbolic of
    feminine aspects of the Great Mother).  Our "fear" of snakes (aside from
    any fear associated from actual negative experiences involving snakes) is 
    probably related a sub-conscious link between actual snakes and the Terrible
    Mother.

    Terry

    Reply to .33, Kottler,
    
    He address this somewhat in PRIMITIVE MYTHOLOGY.

    As I recall, Campbell reminds us that snakes are symbols of the
    cyclical nature of life/death, as they shed their skins and
    are reborn...
    
    
    I also remember Campbell stating in _The Power of Myth_  that the
    eden story was indicative of how the judeo/christian religions
    have caused the western trdition to be based on exile from the
    deity...   please refer to the sources for more...
    
    /bruce

Re .34, .35, .36:

Thanks for the info on Campbell's interpretation of serpents, Eden, etc. I 
was being ironic when I called serpents "good guys". I mean, I'm more or
less familiar with the view (though I hadn't seen it in Campbell's works)
that serpents are feminine aspects of the Great Mother, as is the garden
itself. I'm sure this view is valid. That's just my point; that's what I 
meant by "twist" -- I doubt if most people reading the Eden myth *as
rendered in the Old Testament*, who are not learned mythologists, would
derive any such meaning from it. Surely most people come away from that
story -- and have done for centuries -- feeling that the serpent is evil,
and that our "fall" occurred because of Eve's womanly weakness! I guess my
question is, how did this "twist" happen, and why? 

James Frazer talks about this in his book Folklore in the Old Testament. 
I'll try to remember to bring in that passage. Also, I believe Mary Condren
in her recent book The Serpent and the Goddess mentions early myths in
which serpents guarded the divine tree of knowledge from mere humans,
instead of trying to entice humans to partake of it. 

Thanks,

Dorian

    
    If you're looking for comparisons of myths in different societies,
    you might try reading Marcel Eliade. He takes a number of archetypes
    and shows how they show up modified to suit different cultures.
    He's got many books; _The Two and the One_ is the first one that comes
    to mind.
    

    
    Re.34 (Kasper)
    
    Terry,
    
    There are sea snakes in the south Pacific.  They are deadly.
    
    Cindy

re: .35 (Cindy)
    
    > There are sea snakes in the south Pacific.  They are deadly.
    
      But I hear they are real friendly.  Cute too! ;-)   

      In the myths JC talks about in the Pacific, the snakes/serpents
      that appear are the water type.  Few or no myths with land-lubbers in
      the islands...

      Terry

    Reply to .40, Terry,
    
    The sea snakes Cindy refers to are the most posionous snakes on the
    planet. Lucky for us they are also the most chicken. When threatened
    they float belly up in the water, pretending to be dead.
    
    Just don't let them chew on ya' for a minute.
    

   re: .41 

    Yep I know.  I was in the Pacific (USAF) for a while and did some diving.
    Before they'd let us get wet we had to take "Dangerous Marine Life"
    training.  Concerning sea snakes (and the sea wasp), the action to take 
    per our instructor was to immediately take off your gear and give it to 
    your buddy because you wouldn't need it anymore... 

    They had lots of other 'nasties' there with varying degrees of affect.

    Then there were the B52's....

    Terry

    Re.4* (Terry K.)
    
    Actually you are right about them being friendly, Terry.  I read this 
    in a Nat'l Geographic article just before departing for the Barrier Reef.
    While the old school of thought was to kill them or be killed, they are
    not attacking creatures (as mentioned in the other note).  They are quite 
    playful, as are the giant rays (they like to be scratched).  I'll try and 
    find that article - it was well done.  Their favorite diver pasttime is
    to race them side by side.  
    
    On the other hand though, the divers had full wetsuits on...
    
    Cindy

    Well the one in the Garden of Eden was friendly too, if I remember
    correctly. But look how bad he (he, right?) was, causing our eviction
    and all that. And look who played right into his - er - hands!

    
    Actually, I think most pagan religions regarded the snake rather 
    favorably.
    
    Lessee--famous (mythic) snakes...there was the Worm Ouroboros (sp.)
    who defined the limits of the world...the prophetic Python god of
    Rome...snakes were a symbol of rebirth because they shed their skin...
    they live in holes in the ground, so they were in communion with the
    Great Mother...lots of legends about the old and wise serpent...there
    was the serpent that was strangled by the eagle in Mexican mythology...
    In Orphic mythology, the world hatched from a snake's egg...any more?
    

    Re .45:
    
    > ... any more?
    
    How quickly they forget!  How about the Midgard Serpent, who circled the
    world in Norse mythology?  The snakes the baby Herakles strangled
    sent to kill him by the angered Hera?  The serpent Aaapep,
    manifestation of evil, slain by Re [or Heru] in cat form in Egyptian
    mythology?  
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re: .47 (Steve)

    > "-< off the top of my head ... >-"

    Since you mentioned it, who could forget Medusa?

    Terry

    
    ...and the TWO--not ONE, but TWO--snakes around the physician's 
    staff! 
    
    (Gives one to think about the legend of St. Patrick driving the 
    snakes out of Ireland. Maybe symbolic of the defeat of the Druids
    by the Christians?)
    
    (How come I only think of this stuff after I hit <ctrl>Z ?)

re: .49
    
    >...and the TWO--not ONE, but TWO--snakes around the physician's 
    > staff! 
    
    This is an age-old symbol that the medical folks picked up.  Some
    interpret this to be a symbol of, yes... kundalini.  The staff being
    the spinal column and the snake(s) symbolic of the rising of the
    kundalini energy.
    
    What about _Dune_.  Does it qualify as a snake bearing myth?

    Terry 
    (who_finds_snakes_frequently_in_his_dreams good_and_bad_but_always_good)

    
    Dunno about the worm myth, but _Dune_ is loaded with mythic 
    archetypes. The infant hero kills an assasin (like Hercules,
    noted previously); the tripartate female goddess of Rev. monahan,
    Jessica, and Chani, each one sequencially teaching the hero; the
    mystic inward journey (the Waters of Life); the fusing of the animus 
    and anima...
    
    Were it not coffee break, I could go on all day :-} (And off to the
    Caffiene of Life...)

    Yes, Frank Herbert deliberately used the framework of the hero
    cycle for _Dune_.
    
    If you want a snappy (one paragraph) review of this cycle, read
    the first page of the second section of _The_Hero_ by Lord Raglan.
    This predates Joseph Campbell by a good bit (like about a hundred
    years!) but the book is still in print.  Raglan wasn't the first
    to perceive this pattern either, it was well known when Aquinas
    tried to address the problem it presented.
    
    							Ann B.

    RE: .49 (EDECK)
    
    I have read that the banishing of snakes from Ireland by 
    St. Patrick was a symbolic story.  In the book "The Mists of
    Avalon", it describes how some of the practitioners of the
    "Old Religion" had snakes drawn on their arms.  Banishing the
    snakes was actually the banishing of the Old Religion by
    Christianity.
    
    Carole

    
    and so, by saying the snake was responsible for the Fall, 
    Christianity was attempting to discredit the Mother Goddess
    religion. What's the line about the gods of the old religion becoming 
    the devils of the new one (or something like that)?
    
    "Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Snake, and the Snake...didn't have
    a leg to stand on."
    					Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes
    					trial

    Re .54
    
    Excuse me, but I feel there may be a misunderstanding here.  Did you 
    notice that, in .47, Steve was showing that snakes were evil or at 
    best ambivalent symbols in Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and Norse 
    mythologies?  That's long before Christianity.  Also, by the first 
    Christian century, the Mother Goddess religion had long since broken 
    up (if it ever existed) and survived as scattered fragments and
    influences in the various polytheisms of the eastern Mediterranean.  It
    could hardly present a clear target to the early Christians.
    
    In any case, though the Genesis story is part of the Christian canon,
    Christians did not write it; Hebrews did, about 600 years before Christ
    (in its present form and context).
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    There is also the book "Adam, Eve and the Serpent" by Elaine Pagels,
    also the author of "The Gnostic Gospels", if anyone is interested. 
    
    Sorry - can't give a book report as I've only read bits and pieces
    to date.
    
    Cindy

re: .38
>    you might try reading Marcel Eliade. He takes a number of archetypes

Actually it's Mircea Eliade, another giant in the field of comparative religion
and mythology on par with Joseph Campbell.  Some titles of books by Eliade that
i think i can recall are: _Cosmos and History_, _Shamanism_, _Rites and Symbols
of Initiation_, _The Sacred and the Profane_, _Witchcraft and Occultism_, etc.

It seems to me that i had heard that Eliade died earlier this year, but i hope
that's a false memory.  The TV-raised generations don't seem to be capable
of coming up with scholars of this caliber.
								paul

Re .52
    
Here is the Heroic Cycle according to Lord Raglan.  It has 22 points, of which 
no hero scores all, but if you read much myth you will recognize the plot 
outline immediately.

(1) The hero's mother is a royal virgin.  (2) His father is a king, and
(3) often a near relative of his mother, but  (4) the circumstances of his 
conception are unusual, and  (5) he is also reputed to be the son of a god.  
(6) At his birth, an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal 
grandfather, to kill him, but  (7) he is spirited away and  (8) reared by 
foster parents in a far country.  (9) We are told nothing of his childhood, 
but (10) on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
(11) After a victory over the king/monster,  (12) he marries a princess, often
the daughter of his predecessor, and  (13) becomes king.  (14) For a time, he 
reigns uneventfully, and  (15) prescribes laws, but  (16) later he loses the 
favor of the gods/people and  (17) is driven from the throne and city, after 
which  (18) he meets a mysterious death  (19) often on top of a hill.  
(20) His children, if any, do not succeed him.  (21) His body is not buried, 
but still  (22) he has one or more holy sepulchres.

Oedipus gets the highest score, 21 out of 22.  (He is not said to have passed 
any laws.)  Theseus scores 19.  Alexander the Great scores 13.  Christ scores
15 to 20, depending on how loosely you interpret things (e.g. did he ever
"reign" during his Earthly life?)  King Arthur scores 18.  Napoleon scores 10.

In "The Hero with a Thousand Faces," Joseph Campbell describes another cycles, 
much more generalized.  In fact, it strongly resembles the general plot 
outline you are probably familiar with from high school literature classes:

   The Hero receives the Call to Adventure.

   He meets the Guardian at the Threshold between the Mundane Realm and the 
   Realm of Adventure.  This figure may bar his way or pull him in.

   Once in the Realm of Adventure, the Hero encounters an assortment of helps 
   and hindrances.

   Eventually, he acquires the Boon.

   He is then chased and/or escorted out of the Realm of Adventure with the
   Boon. 

   He returns to the mundane realm, which he enriches with the Boon.

Gandalf is Bilbo's Guaridan, who issues the Call to Adventure and pulls Bilbo 
in.  The stereotypical sultry blonde performs the same function for the 
hard-boiled detective.

The Realm of Adventure is no necessarily a place, but the state of adventuring 
-- wandering Middle Earth for Bilbo, being on a case, for the detective.  Both 
encounter a colorful assortment of helps and hindrances that make up the bulk 
of the plot.

Bilbo's Boon is to dispose of the dragon and get the treasure.  The 
detective's is to discover Who Dunnit.  Both must then get home safe with 
their valuables.

Earl Wajenberg

On the subject of how *woman* fared in the Garden of Eden myth, James Frazer
(author of The Golden Bough) has this to say: 

"... the great Jehovistic artist [author of second chapter of 
Genesis]...hardly attempts to hide his deep contempt for woman. The 
lateness of her creation, and the irregular and undignified manner of it -- 
made out of a piece of her lord and master, after all the lower animals had 
been created in a regular and decent manner -- sufficiently marks the low 
opinion he held of her nature; and in the sequel his misogynism, as we may 
fairly call it, takes on a still darker tinge, when he ascribes all the 
misfortunes and sorrows of the human race to the credulous folly and 
unbridled appetite of its first mother."

		-- James Frazer, Folk-lore in the Old Testament, p. 2

    I know I'm a little late (the dates on this conversation are October
    of '89), but I would like to steer things a little away from arguing
    the details.  
    
    I am sure I am not alone in the opinion that my life has been a
    search of sorts.  I have read a wide variety of material, everything
    from eastern, polytheism (witchcraft), new age stuff, Sartre, Nietchze,
    and of course every one's favorite - - Christianity.  Through it
    all one thing becomes prevelent :  That through a study of different
    religions and philosophies one begins to see the patterns that arise
    in the way man views or defines his this "God" thing.  
    
    That is what I got from Joseph Campbell.  Or more simply, Jung's
    archetypes.  I find it fascinating how this "God" has manifested
    itself in our conciousness.  
    
    It is intangible so we'll still be around arguing on the fine points.
    
    What's the point???  One of my favorite J. Campbell quote goes kind
    of like this...
    
            (from the "Transformations of Myth through Time" series)
    
               "Every one is looking for 'meaning' in life.
                Life  has no 'meaning'
                It is the experience of life we seek"
    
    He said it kind of like that....
    jp.