[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

1084.0. "what's "authentic?"" by HYDRA::LARU (goin' to graceland) Fri Jul 14 1989 13:50

    if somebody "thinks" they are helped by a "new age awareness,"
    or by an "inauthentic" Amerind belief or ritual, or inauthentic
    Bhuddist belief or  ritual, or inauthentic Christian belief or
    ritual, how does one judge whether it's so?  
    
    indeed, who are we to judge whether *someone else* is helped?
    
    and what's "authentic"  ?????  
    
        the way it was done 5,000 years ago?
        the way it was done 100 years ago?
        the way your grandfather does it?
        the way *you* do it?
        the way Lazaris/George Bush/Carlos Casteneda,Mother Theresa does it?
    
    seems to me, truth is only in one's own mind.
       and all paths lead to the same place.
    
    /bruce
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1084.1Aha, I see! (Do you see?)MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerFri Jul 14 1989 14:5121
    re: .0 (Brewce)
    
         Good one!  Since the questions are all basically rhetorical,
    there isn't much need to say anything...the old axiom "to thine
    own self be true" seems appropriate, however.  
         There are 5 billion of us on the planet, each seeking to 
    understand/know ourselves...it doesn't really matter if someone
    else does if we don't.  All that matters is that we do.  In that
    process, however, the knowledge and understandings come to us in
    5 billion different ways.  While no two of us are alike, many of
    us can share or overlap in the exposure of awarenesses and experiences.
    Still, its interpretation will remain individualistic and unique.
    What is authentic?  I say if it's true for you, it's authentic.
    Age makes little difference...especially if reincarnation is held
    into account.  Experiences are experiences...knowledge is knowledge.
    Wisdom (putting understanding into practice) is a synergy of those
    awarenesses, knowledge and experiences.  The source or origin seems
    no longer relevant at that point.
    
    Frederick
    
1084.2can you really see auras ?SALSA::MOELLERFri Jul 14 1989 23:578
< Note 1084.1 by MISERY::WARD_FR "Going HOME--as an Adventurer" >
>    What is authentic?  I say if it's true for you, it's authentic.


    .. and I say, if it isn't true for me, then your claims of 
    experience must be inauthentic.  Just the way it works for me.
        
karl    
1084.3just a questionsWITNES::MESAROSMon Jul 17 1989 13:1016
    re: .0
    
    I beg to differ on your last comment.
    "all paths lead to the same place"
    If that is so, where, what is that place?
    I believe that you are given choices
    you choose which path you wish to take everytime a
    door is opened (if you can see that it is open) or
    everytime a door is closed.
    
    I could be wrong though, please elaborate on that comment.
    
    Thanks,
    
    KC
    
1084.4CSC32::MORGANCelebrating the Cybernetic Age.Mon Jul 17 1989 13:1812
    re:                      <<< Note 1084.3 by WITNES::MESAROS >>>
    
    
    >I beg to differ on your last comment.
    >"all paths lead to the same place"
    >If that is so, where, what is that place?
    >I believe that you are given choices
    >you choose which path you wish to take everytime a
    >door is opened (if you can see that it is open) or
    >everytime a door is closed.
    
    Place is not so much a place or location as it is a condition.
1084.5CSC32::MORGANCelebrating the Cybernetic Age.Mon Jul 17 1989 13:243
    Reply to .0, Bruce,
    
    Aren't we confusing authentic and genuine with "what works?"
1084.6we are asking...HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 13:4824
1084.7confusion has just set inWITNES::MESAROSMon Jul 17 1989 13:5116
    I'm still confused!
    
    I guess I just don't get it.
    I have been under that impression that 
    we are here to learn (each lifetime)
    we choose which paths we want to take
    in order to learn or experience what it
    is we were meant to learn or experience
    IF we choose the right path.
    
    Okay, what's missing.  Am I at least on the right track?
    
    KC
    
    (p.s.  I'm still using my boss' account until I get my own)
    
1084.8just followin' the tracks...HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 14:0422
1084.9don't look back...ATSE::FLAHERTYEvolving, not revolvingMon Jul 17 1989 14:457
    re:  .7
    
    Perhaps there are no mistakes -- no 'wrong paths' -- only lessons
    to learn.
    
    Ro
    
1084.10my .02 cents worthEXIT26::SAARINENMon Jul 17 1989 15:3919
    Yeah well what about the idea of what works for the most amount
    of people of the 5 Billion of us here who inhabit this dumpsite
    of a planet. All this talk about "what works for *me*" makes me
    quite nauseous...which seems to border on the elitist approach 
    to spirituality. I'll call it a spiritual path by working on 
    myself first with $300 workshops and fancy massage oils and 
    imported incense and crystals...YIKES...ya gotta be kidding!
    
    I'll call a spiritual path authentic, and REAL when it considers
    everyone on the planet, so we all can be elevated together to
    a higher standard of living thru loving, which feeds people and 
    houses them and gives them medical supplies, and clean drinking water,
    and the hope and know-how to fend for themselves. That to me is the
    first steps to a spiritual path, that is authentic and real.
                
    A Spiritual Path Starts with Common Sense.
    
    .02 cents
    -Arthur
1084.11LEDS::BATESSic transit GloriaMon Jul 17 1989 15:4016
    
    Every now and then I remember something that my gentleman-farmer
    ex-father-in-law would say as he spread horse manure on his rosebeds:
    "Even shit is good for something."
    
    I'm careful about dismissing someone else's meat because it may be
    poison for me. And even if/when I choose something that's not quite
    'right', I trust in my ability to discard what doesn't work, and
    acknowledge the discomfort that it's caused. The lesson: that it's
    something I don't need to try again - or bemoan never having tried.
    
    In wordy agreement with Ro - 
    
    Gloria 
    
    
1084.12SMEGIT::BALLAMMon Jul 17 1989 16:2410
    Was the meditation circle at the recent Medicine Wheel Gathering
    "authentic" Native American ritual?  I don't know, but it was a
    powerful and positive experience.  
    
    Was the teacher who spoke at our workshop passing on authentic Native
    American wisdom?  I don't know, but it touched me somewhere deep
    inside, and I learned to increase my awareness of my surroundings
    and internal talk.
    
    Karen  
1084.13most likely you'll go your way, i'll go mine...HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 17:0922
    re .10:
    
    Arthur, your reply seems to me to suggest that somehow
    being concerned with one's own growth necessarily causes
    pollution, hunger, pestilence and god-knows what other
    disasters, that self-concern is antithetical to concern
    for others/the "world out there."
    
    I don't believe that is so.
    
    I believe that one's self-awareness necessarily leads to 
    awareness of the arbitary nature of the self-otherd/inside-outside
    boundaries, and that by "improving" my corner of the cosmic egg i 
    necessarily improve the whole egg.
    
    If $300 workshops and fancy massage oils don't yield the
    desired results, at least that narrows the list of options
    from which to choose, and one is a little "farther along"
    to [where(?)]....
    
    
    /bruce
1084.14more .02centsEXIT26::SAARINENMon Jul 17 1989 18:1257
    re .10:
*** Hi there....
    
    Arthur, your reply seems to me to suggest that somehow
    being concerned with one's own growth necessarily causes
    pollution, hunger, pestilence and god-knows what other
    disasters, that self-concern is antithetical to concern
    for others/the "world out there."

*** The majority of what is called spiritual paths today do
*** seem to pad the individual with a sense of ME First...
*** and than everything else will take care of itself. This justification
*** I don't think is very true at all. I think that most of the paths are
*** pyschic massages for the ego that makes one feel better
*** about oneself without teaching the seeker (what I consider
*** what the real nature of spirit is)... which is Love...which
*** to me...is getting off of ones ass and doing something for
*** somebody other than oneself. That is where the action of
*** Love is manifested...
    
    I don't believe that is so.

*** oh... ;-)
    
    I believe that one's self-awareness necessarily leads to 
    awareness of the arbitary nature of the self-otherd/inside-outside
    boundaries, and that by "improving" my corner of the cosmic egg i 
    necessarily improve the whole egg.      

*** I think that the idea is that, people might become aware of the boundaries
*** of the cosmic egg...and that is where it ends. They don't get off and
*** make the manifestation of what they have come to realize in their path.

*** I think the trend is that way though. The trend for some spirtual paths
*** is to endorse going off to the wilderness on a vision quest, or go to spend
*** a weekend discovering the inner primal man...is to me a misdirection of
*** the energy of spirit that can make a difference in the real world with
*** people who are suffering now.
    
    If $300 workshops and fancy massage oils don't yield the
    desired results, at least that narrows the list of options
    from which to choose, and one is a little "farther along"
    to [where(?)]....
                                             

*** Yeah that's a cute answer Bruce...but as the world steps closer to
*** the edge of the big dark abyss...I would bark at the narrowmindedness
*** and luxurious attitude of thinking we can experiment with such BS
*** while there is poverty,suffering,disease,aparthied,etc...in this world.

*** If a spiritual path is anything, I think it should start with compassion
*** for your fellow man, to the natural world in which we live and how we
*** feel about ourselves in relation to that.    
    
-Arthur    
                                              
                                  
1084.15my $.0005 worthBTOVT::BEST_GFood is Not a ToyMon Jul 17 1989 18:1316
    
    re: .10
    
    To second /bruce's idea, I believe that first we must look inside, get
    that aspect of our lives in order, then begin acting in a manner
    befitting our then transformed attitude.  We can't really know how to
    get the world situation in order without making all things come from
    a place of real harmony - our inner selves (I'm speaking here of all
    of society).
    
    re: whoever was looking for answers...
    
    You probably won't find them here.  
    
    
    Guy
1084.16Wonder is what it's about.MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerMon Jul 17 1989 18:2941
    re: .10 (Art)
    
          Sheesh!
    
          This "argument" hasn't been seen in here much since John
    Mitchell left...I thought it had already been answered before...
    goes to show what I know.  ;-)
    
          Why is it so many people think that the way to spirituality
    is to find some under-"priveleged" person and give them something?
    I'm not going to rewrite all the answers to this here...this has
    already been done by many people here in various ways.  You've been
    in this notes conference long enough, though, Art, that you've no
    doubt seen the replies.  Is it that you didn't read them, don't
    understand them, have forgotten them, or simply can't accept them?
    There is as much "wrong" with giving to others as there is "right",
    FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.  If it's appropriate for you to spend
    your dollars on others rather than yourself, do so, by all means.
    If, when you are 78 years old and you're lying around wondering what
    life is all about but are barely able to think about it and haven't
    a clue, maybe you'll see that those who spent a few years or several
    decades learning about themselves have an inner sense you'll envy.
    Maybe not, either because their search was fruitless or because you
    won't even care.  I feel I do at least as much for others these
    days as I did in my past, yet I spend far more on "lessons" than
    I ever would have imagined, I'm more financial stable, happier and
    more in control of my reality.  Had I stayed away from $300 workshops
    and gone to work in a soup line doling out soup, I seriously doubt
    that I'd be anything but depressed.  
        Incidentally, I'd rather have nice "expensive" oils on my skin
    than sheep lard, wouldn't you?  Or are you so undeserving that only
    crude oil will suffice?  Or are you so undeserving that even massage
    is something only for the bourgeois in your mind...definitely not
    pour toi?  
        Frankly, Arthur, your note surprised me.  I think maybe what you
    said isn't entirely what you meant.  But I could be wrong.  I do make
    mistakes...even after hundreds of dollars in lessons, I still make
    mistakes.  Makes me wonder.
    
    Frederick
    
1084.17...more opinionsEXIT26::SAARINENMon Jul 17 1989 19:4092
    re: .10 (Art) 
    
*** Fred,    
          Sheesh!

*** God bless you...
    
          This "argument" hasn't been seen in here much since John
    Mitchell left...I thought it had already been answered before...
    goes to show what I know.  ;-)

*** Haa haa...
    
          Why is it so many people think that the way to spirituality
    is to find some under-"priveleged" person and give them something?

*** Under Priviliged...!!!! God...the energy that you have is not
*** something to horde and keep to oneself...and how you define 
*** under-"priveleged" sounds so self righteous that its disgusting.
*** Suffering...is what I am talking about. Starving, Dying, Sick,
*** under-"priveleged" people... Not intellectual non-entities...real
*** people.
 
    I'm not going to rewrite all the answers to this here...this has
    already been done by many people here in various ways.  You've been
    in this notes conference long enough, though, Art, that you've no
    doubt seen the replies.  Is it that you didn't read them, don't
    understand them, have forgotten them, or simply can't accept them?   

*** I simply don't agree with alot of them.

    There is as much "wrong" with giving to others as there is "right",
    FROM A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.  If it's appropriate for you to spend
    your dollars on others rather than yourself, do so, by all means. 

*** Another cute rationalization...Sure I can do whatever I want with
*** the resources I have...and your reality is giving me no justification
*** either way to do what I feel is right.

    If, when you are 78 years old and you're lying around wondering what
    life is all about but are barely able to think about it and haven't
    a clue, maybe you'll see that those who spent a few years or several
    decades learning about themselves have an inner sense you'll envy.

*** I don't consider what I see as EGO stroking even now on the part of
*** people who call themselves RIGHT  with there "inner point of view" much
*** help for anybody but themselves.

    Maybe not, either because their search was fruitless or because you
    won't even care.  I feel I do at least as much for others these
    days as I did in my past, yet I spend far more on "lessons" than
    I ever would have imagined, I'm more financial stable, happier and
    more in control of my reality.  Had I stayed away from $300 workshops
    and gone to work in a soup line doling out soup, I seriously doubt
    that I'd be anything but depressed.    

*** Yeah but now...if your reality is so much in control how come it 
*** sounds like the action of working in a soup kitchen is such a downer.
*** You have the money, you have everything together, but it seems you
*** have only found fancy justifications to be responsible to only 
*** yourself.

        Incidentally, I'd rather have nice "expensive" oils on my skin
    than sheep lard, wouldn't you?  Or are you so undeserving that only
    crude oil will suffice?  Or are you so undeserving that even massage
    is something only for the bourgeois in your mind...definitely not
    pour toi?

*** Freddie...listen...Massage to me is not a spiritual path. If I do
*** get rubbed out by my girlfriend... I do use some nice Swiss Oil 
*** that costs about $6 or $7 from my local health food store. BUT If
*** I had the choice between getting a massage and feeling all relaxed,
*** or having back pains and seeing a poor family fed with good food,
*** my spiritual path would be to say to hell with the back rub.
*** It's called exerting yourself, not your ego.

        Frankly, Arthur, your note surprised me.  I think maybe what you
    said isn't entirely what you meant.  But I could be wrong.  I do make
    mistakes...even after hundreds of dollars in lessons, I still make
    mistakes.  Makes me wonder.

*** Perceiving Wonder or astonishment...or like being aSTONEDished... ;-) is 
*** one thing. Whatever vehicle gets you to that point...great...but once
*** you get there...I believe you have to share the energy from that point
*** to make a difference in the world. In that way, when  you are old and
*** 78 you won't be a crabby self satisfied content old snob who thought
*** he had all the answers for himself, and wonders why the old feelings
*** of being high just aren't there anymore.    
    
-Arthur
               
1084.18i don't have *any* answersHYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 19:4630
1084.19I won't go thereCSC32::MORGANCelebrating the Cybernetic Age.Mon Jul 17 1989 20:1417
    Reply to .6, Bruce,
    
    Actually I try not to mangle the language too bad. And if we lose the
    conventions of language without agreeing on what's happening I think we
    all lose. We wouldn't be able to communicate "authentically".
    
    My reading is that you are asking what is ultimately valid. Please
    correct me if I'm misreading the topic.
    
    My guess is that not all paths lead to the same place. Furthermore, it
    doesn't really matter. There's lotsa' space and time in this universe.
    I can't see any problems with utilizing these while in discarnate
    states.
    
    The Ultimate seems to be oblivion. I'm gonna' try to avoid that like
    the plague while I'm able.
    
1084.20...moreEXIT26::SAARINENMon Jul 17 1989 20:4562
1084.21Signals have been crossed somewhere...MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerMon Jul 17 1989 21:007
    ...and if nothing else gets them, manipulate them by guilt-tripping
    or shaming them.  Then they can feel bad, and that's good.
    
    [from Frederick's guide to negative ego]
    
    Frederick
    
1084.22why i asked...HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 21:0520
    re: .19
    
    Mikie,  i asked the question in reaction to something
    in 1083 (i think it was Tony Wiletto) that seemed to 
    imply that "new-age" spiritual quests were misguided
    and doomed to failure because they relied on "inauthentic"
    techniques/rituals that charletons foist on the gullible as
    genuine paths used by (among others) the Amerinds.
    
    Well, how do we determine what's authentic?
    And is an "authentic" ritual necessary for [???]...
    And to whom does it matter?
    And why?
    
    So, I think I'm asking for something larger than "validity."
    
    
    /bruce
    
    
1084.23HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandMon Jul 17 1989 21:1917
    re: .20
    
    Arthur,
    
    I don't feel that i can suggest to anyone how they "should"
    conduct their life.  i can't judge the validity of anyone's
    spiritual search (or lack thereof.)
    
    I wasn't suggesting sending Lazaris to Appalachia.
    Nor sending CARE packages full of massage oil to Bangladesh.
           
    I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
    into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
    for world peace lately?"
    
    
    /bruce
1084.24CSC32::MORGANCelebrating the Cybernetic Age.Mon Jul 17 1989 21:5732
    re: <<< Note 1084.22 by HYDRA::LARU "goin' to graceland" >>>
        
    
    >Mikie,  i asked the question in reaction to something
    >in 1083 (i think it was Tony Wiletto) that seemed to 
    >imply that "new-age" spiritual quests were misguided
    >and doomed to failure because they relied on "inauthentic"
    >techniques/rituals that charletons foist on the gullible as
    >genuine paths used by (among others) the Amerinds.
    >
    >Well, how do we determine what's authentic?
    >And is an "authentic" ritual necessary for [???]...
    >And to whom does it matter?
    >And why?
    >
    >So, I think I'm asking for something larger than "validity."
    
    I guess it's all kinda' relative. Should one want to experience
    AmerIndian spirituality they should go to and request it, with all the
    normal dues and duties, from a AmerIndian shaman. Authenticity and
    genuiness are related to a particular thing, say an AmerIndian
    tradition. These are always generated and driven by the many different
    experiences a tribal group or culture encounters. I think quality and
    degree of immersion determine the authenticity. To experience
    AmerIndian spirituality one would need to live as the AmerIndian
    did/do.
    
    Ultimately, along with Wicca and other forms of nature spirituality,
    one cannot easily determine what is a genuine tradition and what is
    eclectic except by knowledgable historical analysis.
    
    And fortunately, what works, works. B^)
1084.26I think he is being misunderstood...SHALOT::LACKEYService rendered is wisdom gainedTue Jul 18 1989 15:0312
Re: .23 (Bruce)
    
>    I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
>    into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
>    for world peace lately?"
    
I really don't think Arthur has been approaching this topic from a sense 
of self-importance or accusation. It seems to me that he is simply appalled 
at how easily people can have their heads in the clouds and forget the
basics.
    
Jeff
1084.27I'd like to borrow $.02 from ArthurSHALOT::LACKEYService rendered is wisdom gainedTue Jul 18 1989 15:0531
Re: .10, .14, .17, .20 (Arthur)

Well, Arthur, please don't pass out from shock, but there really are 
some folks out here who agree with what you have been saying (although 
apparently very few). :-)

Several of us have found ourselves in this loop before.  Hmmm, maybe 
that's why "Dejavu" is the title of this conference... because there are 
some issues which continue to resurface.  That's alright, though.  If 
certain issues continue to resurface, then perhaps they are serving a 
purpose.

An interesting (seemingly paradoxical) point, in my opinion, is that we 
cannot fully know how to best serve others until we know ourselves 
fully; and yet, we cannot know ourselves fully and experience that 
harmony until we have focussed on serving others.  I think your point, 
which I agree with, is that the planet is experiencing too much of the 
former and not enough of the latter, thus losing the balance.

If we want to find something *really* authentic (to tie this in with the 
topic), we can look at our own self-indulgence.  We tend to indulge the 
(little) self at the expense of the (big) Self.  The insidious part is 
that many of us, myself included, are intelligent enough to justify and 
rationalize virtually all of our activities (or lack of them) in the name 
of spirituality.

When we pass from this life it will matter little how much knowledge and 
information we have accumulated.  If we have not converted the knowledge 
to wisdom by using it, we will not carry it with us.

Jeff
1084.28NEXUS::MORGANCelebrating the Cybernetic Age.Tue Jul 18 1989 15:124
    Reply to .26, Jeff (on Arthur),
    
    I've said as much in this and other files in the past. Of what good is
    having a great belief system if it doesn't parallel reality?
1084.29Any point along the spiral looks like the point below it.MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerTue Jul 18 1989 15:206
    re: .27 (Jeff)
    
         I like that.
    
    Frederick
    
1084.30Samovar?DNEAST::CHRISTENSENLTue Jul 18 1989 16:5312
/bruce

If authentic was easy to define, easy to capture and not part
of the paradox: "it takes one to know one", you would not have 
asked the question...eh?


There is the old story: "How does one become a longshoreman? A: By
getting into the Union. Q: How does one get into the Union? 
A: By becoming a longshoreman."

L.
1084.31...not much more to say...EXIT26::SAARINENTue Jul 18 1989 18:2247
    ...and if nothing else gets them, manipulate them by guilt-tripping
    or shaming them.  Then they can feel bad, and that's good.
    
    [from Frederick's guide to negative ego]

    Frederick                                                            

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**** Frederick,

**** Your above quote sure places you close to Numero Uno in
**** the [Arthur's Guide to "Oh you Poor Little Baby, Let me 
**** retract what I have written so your delicate Ego won't be
**** Shattered"] 

**** -Arthur                                         

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Arthur,
    
    I don't feel that i can suggest to anyone how they "should"
    conduct their life.  i can't judge the validity of anyone's
    spiritual search (or lack thereof.)

*** Too bad that you feel restrained from using your brain. I
*** just call them the way I see 'em....and I think and believe
*** that the seeker should start out with the basics before 
*** heading out into the more esoteric realms that really in the
*** long run...I would question...who does it really benefit?
    
           
    I think it's somewhat disingenuous to turn this note
    into a discussion of "what have all you narcissists done
    for world peace lately?"
    
*** You asked what was authentic. I tried to describe it in the
*** ways that I see what I consider to be a Real Authentic Spiritual
*** Path...were most of the roots of spiritual path should start and return
*** too. Obviously your not getting the point I am trying to get across.
*** Nothing like a good discussion to keep the barnacles off the
*** hull of our hearts and minds ...ehh? ;-)
        
-Arthur
            
                                                                        
1084.32Authenticity.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperTue Jul 18 1989 19:4138
    I think I'll take a stab at this:
    
    1) There is a difference between learing self respect and learning
    self indulgence, but it is frequently difficult to distinguish them
    either because one is too close or because one is too distant.
    
    2) Teachers may attempt to teach one yet some of their students may
    learn the other.
    
    3) The advantage of asceticism is that it would seem to be hard for
    the wrong lesson of self-indulgence to be learned.  If either is
    learned it would seem to be self respect.  Unfortunately, it is then
    too easy to avoid self respect by learning the indulgence of self denial
    -- the belief that denial is an end in itself rather than one means to
    one end.
    
    4) Good works are not an end in themselves.  They are sometimes a
    consequence of spiritual growth.  They may also be a form of, or
    a part of the "path of asceticism" to spiritual growth -- with that
    paths attendant advantages and pitfalls.  In that case a small amount
    of guilt may serve as a "prod" to the student.  More than a small
    amount of guilt, or chronic generic guilt, does no-one any good.
    
    5) When someone claims to be teaching a traditional kind of spiritual
    discipline, it is authentic if and only if it does indeed follow the
    heart and soul and as much of the body as is practical of that
    tradition.  *Whether or not it is valuable for spiritual growth* it
    is authentic if it follows the tradition it claims to, and it is
    inauthentic if it does not.
    
    6) If someone claims to be teaching a traditional spiritual discipline
    but knows that they are not, then they are dealing with deliberate
    untruth.  However valuable their discipline is, this is a poor start for
    a teacher, but not always a fatal one.
    
    Now you can argue at me for a while, rather than at each other. :-)
    
    						Topher
1084.33HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandTue Jul 18 1989 20:2027
1084.34Does this make sense?NAAD::BARNETTEI'm a soul, man!Tue Jul 18 1989 20:3341
    
    	Re (Saarinen and a few others):

	Let's hold on here a minute, before we start acting like
	the members of certain other conferences (I won't name names,
	but somehow node CACHE:: comes to mind ;^) which thrive on
	bashing other persons ideas, theories and beliefs.

	Has it ever occurred to you that there may be many differnt
	aspects to spirituality. For some, toiling away in a soup
	kitchen may actually be sinful, as it will only lead them
	to feel depression, hopelessness and despair. For others,
	$300 lectures and expensive massage oils may constitute 
	a spiritually-unacceptable level of conspicuous consumption,
	while others may be in a phase where the the discovery of the
	body and it's maintenance are the critical issues of this lifetime.

	There is no system that works for everybody because everybody's
	experiences are unique. There are, however, systems that will
	work for large numbers of people who share similiar experiences
	or patterns in their development. These will naturally tend to
	attract persons for whom they are appropriate. They will also
	occasionally attract persons for whom they are *not* appropriate,
	these will become disillusioned and should be allowed to leave.
	But who is to say that the experience will have been a complete
	waste?

	To be sure, selfless service is an enriching, spiritually 
	nourishing experience. But for those who are disinclined,
	they may get nothing out of it and only become more selfish. 
	And consider, persons who attend expensive, fraudulent workshops
	believing they are finding their "spiritual path", may be
	learning an important spiritual lesson on gullibility!

	I think most of us are in agreement that we recieve some sort
	of inner guidance. We simply disagree on it's source. IMHO,
	the differing concepts of what that source is, is not of
	crucial importance. Listening, attuning to, being guided by
	that source is the important thing.

Neal/B
1084.35A tradition is a living thing, or it is dead.CADSYS::COOPERTopher CooperTue Jul 18 1989 20:5035
RE: .33 (bruce)
    
    Change is an inevitable part of the world.  For a tradition, spiritual
    or otherwise, to survive it must serve a function (not necessarily an
    obvious one, or the intended one).  For it to continue to serve its
    function as change occurs it must adapt and change.  The vital
    (meaning "living" rather than neccessary) traditions and cultural
    institutions all include the capability for self-change and adaptation.
    Generally that capability is subtle and its existence is denied by
    some.
    
    Change within the tradition's/institution's own rules/traditions for
    change maintains authenticity.  Violation of those rules, whether
    by inappropriate change or by refusal to change when called for
    destroys authenticity.
    
    In every generation of a tradition there are reactionaries who seek
    to preserve the body of the tradition even at the cost of destroying
    the its heart and soul; there are radicals who seek to destroy both
    the body and the soul and make it over into something else entirely;
    and there are moderates who seek to simply preserve what can be
    preserved, changing as little as possible and prefering a great change
    in the body to a small change in the heart and soul but willing to
    accept the latter if it is unavoidable.  The problem is, of course,
    in distinguishing between the three -- particularly when the rules of
    change are implicit as they genererally are.
    
    In the past, errors tended to have small consequences, since change was
    slow and there was time to readjust.  In the last few decades, however,
    change has been so rapid that it takes extraordinary wisdom (and
    generally extraordinary good luck) to see what changes *must* be made
    to preserve the relevance and therefore the life of cultural
    institutions and what changes will simply destroy everthing.
    
    					Topher
1084.36Snicker snickerUBRKIT::PAINTERCelebrate life!Tue Jul 18 1989 21:1811
    
    Re.34 (Barnette)
    
    Hi Neal,
    
    Gee - a familiar node if I ever saw one!  (;^)  Thanks - I enjoyed that
    one.
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Will have more to say in this topic in a minute - or two.
1084.37A minute or 2 laterUBRKIT::PAINTERCelebrate life!Tue Jul 18 1989 22:3151
                        
    Some thoughts on Service...
    
    Arthur is correct in saying that there are hungry, poor and starving in
    the world and that they should be helped by those who are more
    fortunate.
    
    I believe that most of us already help, either directly or indirectly,
    (consciously or unconsciously) to alleviate these conditions. This is a
    very positive place, this DEJAVU conference, and positive energy begats
    more positive energy, and the cycle continues.
    
    At the risk of embarrassing Frederick (my good buddy - along with Arthur,
    Bruce, Jeff, Steve K, Mikie and lots of others in this conference), I 
    would like to show how this process works.
    
    Frederick and I joined this conference several years ago.  He kept
    talking about this Lazaris character (;^) and the messages he was
    unselfishly typing in really reached me in a very positive way.  As
    some of you know already here, I had a less-than-happy childhood, which
    is partly the reason behind my typing in note 688 on Adult Children.
    Some of the messages that Frederick typed in assisted me greatly in
    overcoming my own past and healing the old wounds to a point where I
    could then go out and help others to do the same thing.  And they help
    others, and they help others, and on and on.   I don't think that
    Frederick had any idea in the beginning that he would help so many
    people heal their own pasts, but it happened this way nonetheless. 
    It's a kind of a cascading effect.  Lazaris wasn't the answer, and
    never will be.  It is the message and what is done with it that really
    matters.
    
    Thanks, Frederick - I appreciate the time you have taken over the years
    unselfishly enter your lengthy messages because you have helped me and
    many others along our paths.    
    
    And thanks to all of you who have helped me without expecting anything
    in return.  It was the first time I'd been able to consciously understand 
    what the words 'unconditional love' truly mean in practice.
    
    It is only possible to be able to give love when one knows love.  When
    one finally realized what they have, it is something that they must
    pass along, indeed it is no longer possible NOT to pass it along in
    some form.  Some people will send money to charities, some work in soup 
    kitchens, some adopt children, and some write positive messages in notes 
    conferences which inspire others to go out and do something expressive 
    along these lines on their own.  And so on.  It is ALL necessary and 
    important work.
   
    May God/Goddess/All-That-Is bless,
    
    Cindy
1084.38I really feel warmth HEREVIDEO::NIKOLOFFPiercing IllusionsWed Jul 19 1989 02:2019
Hurray, Cindy!

You have said it ALL.  But, lets not forget  *you*.  You have a beautiful
gentle, loving way of putting everything you write, and no matter what kind
of mood I am in when I read you if softens and becomes more positive after
reading your replies.... so thank you also.

I agree very much with what you have said about Frederick.  Finding Lazaris
'WAS MY ANSWER' after years of searching'. Another thanks, Frederick.

I also look and try on others beliefs from here, and because of that it helps me
look deeper at the real things, love, love ones and ALL PEOPLE. I have 
changed because of it.  I think twice before passing by a person in need, a 
hurt animal, etc.

So, lets all realize we are *learning and growing* and have FUN doing it!

Meredith E.

1084.39A helpful(?) analogyBTOVT::BEST_GCommunion with the SunWed Jul 19 1989 11:0843
    
    Though much has already been said on this subject (probably everything,
    thanks to Cindy ;-) I thought of an analogy this morning that might
    help to clarify things.
    
    One member of a married couple works delivering a newspaper and is
    thinking of quitting the job for a better paying one with more sane
    hours.  Coincidentally an editorial is run in the paper expressing
    "the opinion of the newspaper" on, say, the issue of abortion (for our
    purposes it doesn't matter what side they took).  The couple feels 
    very strongly against this viewpoint and decide to make public the
    fact that they are quitting so that their viewpoint and outrage are
    allowed more exposure on television.
    
    Some questions:
    
    Are their motives authentic?
    
    I say no.  
    
    Is it the effect that counts?
    
    I say yeah.  Although, folks on the "other side" might try to devalue
    that statement for the sake of furthering their own view, they really
    must believe it to be fighting for their side in the first place.  One
    side (in this issue) may be fighting for what they believe are lives, 
    and the other side may be fighting for what they believe are
    inalienable rights (please, let's debate the concepts, not the issues).
    So there are potentially positive results either way.
    
    The fact that I picked the worst possible issue for my analogy is
    unfortunate.  But what matters for the sake of our argument is that
    it seems, from this analogy (and in my opinion), that even selfish
    ideas, or at least less-than-selfless ideas, are potentially good for
    someone, somewhere at some time.
    
    Please, let's not argue about abortion.
    
    
    Guy
    
    
    
1084.40'Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong...'ATSE::FLAHERTYEvolving, not revolvingWed Jul 19 1989 12:5116
    Thanks, Cindy.  I too was going to reply to Neal's note to say how
    much I liked it.  But once again, you have really gotten to the
    'heart' of the matter (a special gift that you have).
    
    I was torn as I read each reply to this topic because I could see
    'truth' in each one.  I'd find myself going back and forth agreeing
    first with Bruce, then Arthur, then Frederick, Jeff and so on (was
    beginning to feel wishy-washy about it).  Neal's note and yours
    clarified it for me.
    
    In part through the help of Dejavu and the experiences I've had because 
    of my involvement with it, I've truly begun to know and love myself and
    in so doing have found that my spiritual path is one of 'service'.
    
    Ro
    
1084.41I am not the meek or lost...nor insensitive.MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerWed Jul 19 1989 15:4176
         ...Gosh, nothing like losing the whole node after 30 minutes
    of typing to humble oneself!   (Martyr, martyr!!)
    After all that, I don't feel like repeating myself...
    
          Thank you, Cindy, and Meredith, too.  Let me say that I, too,
    could easily vacilate between "sides" as Ro did.  In fact, I argued
    from the same side Arthur did just last night (but with awareness that
    I had another side, too.)  Value is subjective, we've talked about
    this before.  Being of service is also subjective.  And (to save 
    you a few dollars, here, Arthur) Lazaris has pointed out that being
    of service is the most difficult focus ("purpose", "mission", etc.)
    there is...for it walks the line; it walks the line between martyrhood
    ["Look what I do for these people"] and negative ego in the better than
    mode ["Gosh, they are so undeserving, look at how much better I am
    than they are."]  I don't believe being of service is one of my
    focuses.  And yet I apparently AM of service to some people.  My
    focuses are more "selfish" than that (subjectively looking, of course.)
    So, yes, I am selfish in that way.
         What if I weren't so selfish?  About a dozen years ago, I was
    pretty much in strict survival mode ($2500 gross income that year
    with thousands of dollars in bills--along with a divorce and a son
    I desparately wanted to positively contribute to.)  I didn't do much
    of anything for myself for more than three years...no vacations,
    no "gifts", no partying, no "women"...and I was quite miserable.
    Finally I had enough.  I decided I would go to massage school (because
    I thought it would enhance my "communications skills" with women...a
    major concern of mine.)  This was in spite of the fact that I still
    owed thousands of dollars to various bills. Instead of spending
    it on a vacation or clothes or whatever, I spent what I considered a
    large $1000 on "me" learning to rub "expensive massage oils" onto
    bodies.  You know what?  I consider it one of the best moves of my
    life!  It had a major and dramatic impact not only on me but on those
    in my life, as well.  I was directly and indirectly led to a greater
    sense of self-love and spirituality (which had gone from a serious,
    dedicated, involved Catholic into the sewer of "nothing".)  I
    discovered millions of things I had never known about before.  And,
    though my life hasn't been wonderful all the time in every aspect,
    there is little resemblance to what it was "just" twelve or 13 years
    ago.  One thing led to another which led to another...and I am
    very grateful for all the events that led me to certain of the
    paths I encountered or discovered.   
         When I first entered this notesfile, I had no idea what was
    going on here.  My biggest concern was not to others, but rather
    to myself...what was my negative ego doing and to what extent
    was it involved?  My negative ego is still a major concern for me.
    But I am now also aware that I have an impact.  Along with a 
    responsibility to others who could alter their lives one way or
    another contingent on a few words.  Or to those I love and hold
    special.  I make an effort not to proselytize, but rather to act
    out of integrity and caring.  But to ACT!  Not obnoxiously, if I
    can knowingly avoid it, but by showing a way to others who may
    or may not be looking for possibilities.  And not to be gullibly
    led into a primrose path of self-deception or hurt.  NO, this is
    all very real and authentic to me.  I am adhering to my own principles
    and my own ideals with as much character and integrity as I know
    about.  My beliefs will change, undoubtably.  But my authenticity
    is as real as I can make it.  I won't tell anybody to spend $300
    for a workshop.  If spending $300 on tennis lessons is more valuable
    to you, or giving $300 to an orphanage is more important to you,
    do it.  I will continue to be "selfish" and spend a noticeable 
    portion of my income on self-growth and what to me is my spirituality.
    "All beliefs are false, choose the ones that work" is something I
    hold as true.  For now, these are my beliefs and they work for me.
          "Coincidentally," someone in this conference sent me a little
    booklet I received yesterday.  It is by someone I never heard of named
    Stuart Wilde.  To quote, "Life was never meant to be a struggle;
    just a gentle progression from one point to another, much like walking
    through a valley on a sunny day."  His book echoes my position very
    well.  Sacrifice, stuggle, hardship, suffering, etc. are not the ways
    in which I want my life.  If $300 workshops and expensive massage oils
    are my walk through a valley on a sunny day, then I offer apologies to
    no one.  I do it out of self-love, with harm to none, with the hopes
    of sharing it with everyone.
    
    Frederick
    
1084.42STARDM::JOLLIMOREDancing Madly BackwardsWed Jul 19 1989 16:1023
.41 Frederick

I'm very aware that your beliefs work for you and wouldn't think of
countering any of them.

I'd like to address this ... (not with you in particular, but in general)

>   Stuart Wilde.  ......... "Life was never meant to be a struggle;
>   just a gentle progression from one point to another, much like walking
>   through a valley on a sunny day."  

I very much agree with this. I believe NO ONE should have to struggle
with life. The fact is, (in my reality) that for a good majority of the
world's population, life IS a struggle. To some inner city kids, a valley
on a sunny day is something that is experienced only through a book. So,
for some of us $300 workshops are our 'walk through a valley' while for
others there has never been any valley to walk through, literally or
figuratively.

What's this have to do with anything? I don't know either. I just felt
like saying it. ;')

Jay
1084.43to thine own self be true...HYDRA::LARUgoin' to gracelandWed Jul 19 1989 16:3721
    I think Neal said it best...
    
    Contrary to some opinion, I'm not at all afraid to
    use my brain.  I've thought about this quite a lot...
    
    often enough to recognize that there is *no one correct
    answer.*  We each follow our own path, inner voice,
    conscience, higher power, god, whateveryouwanttocallit...
    sometimes we get distracted by lots of outside voices,
    but in the long run, we know we *must* follow our own
    heart, for therein lies authenticity.
    
    For me to judge another's path is ludicrous, for I cannot
    know the other's heart.  For me to strive to have another
    live *my* way, to follow *my* path, that they *should*
    x and *should not* do y is the most selfish thing 
    I can do, and it indicates to me that I do not trust my own heart,
    but require consensus for validation.
    
    
    /bruce
1084.44Throw them a line...just make sure you have the other end.MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerWed Jul 19 1989 17:1376
    re: .42 (Jay)
    
         What you have very tactfully said is similar to what Arthur is
    saying.  I, too, have a reality filled with those who are suffering.
    Do I turn my back on them?  Well, many of them might think so, but
    I have a different awareness than that.  To retreat to an argument
    used in an earlier reply by someone or several, if you are coming 
    from self-love, you are better able to help others.  If I suffer, it
    doesn't really matter to me if everyone else is NOT suffering (in fact,
    it just gives me more reason to justify my own victim/martyr scenario.)
    If I suffer and everyone else is, what good is that?  I am unlikely
    to save anyone if I drown.  I am more likely to prevent their drowning
    if I'm strong and capable of pulling them to safety.  Yes, there is
    clearly a danger here.  The danger is that I place myself so far
    "ahead" of others that they become insignificant and unimportant.  But
    knowing it is enough, hopefully, to avoid that.  Recently I was in 
    Tijuana, Mexico, for a few hours.  As I walked across the border the
    beggars were immediately obvious.   Seeing small babies in their
    mothers arms with flies gathered around has an impact.  Seeing an
    old woman standing there with her hand outstretched and looking into
    her face, one eye completely missing and the other totally cataracted,
    makes the pain of the reality quite real.  But then there is the
    dilemna.  How does one help?  Where does one begin?  What happens with
    whatever it is that is done to help?  After all, do you really change
    things by just giving or does it simply slowdown the "inevitable?"
         I've learned a bit about money the past few years.  Answering
    some of the questions raised in DEJAVU has contributed to that 
    growth.  Also, I have gratitude to my girlfriend, from whom I have
    also learned about money and have therefore shifted in my views.
    Though definitely not wealthy, her relatives and ancestors have
    been (one great-uncle recently died and left $35 million dollars--
    $30 million going to animal support groups, e.g.) and we have had
    many discussions around money.  As she has pointed out to me, she 
    uses her money NOT by directly giving it to the poor, but rather
    by helping others in their livelihood.  Not only does she buy
    goods and services as the rest of us, but also helps support two
    men who do yard work for her and two women who do house work.  She
    also helps keep a veterinarian happy along with a family who runs
    a feed store.  You see, it's her happiness that is contributing
    DIRECTLY to the welfare of others.  There is no greed there, if
    you look closely.  Rather it is her search for excellence and her
    asthetic values that provide her with enough love to care to 
    maintain that around her.  If we each love ourselves enough,
    we can spread that cocoon to those close at hand.  We don't have
    to go to Africa or Bangladesh to do this.  IF, on the other hand,
    IF we are successful enough and loving enough, we can then help those
    who are helping those near and far whom we might not even ever get
    to know about.  Then, perhaps, many of the 4 billion on the planet
    who are suffering can find a means to end it.  
        Jay, I don't know if I can "defend" this any better.  I understand
    what you are saying and yet I cannot believe that simply turning my
    income over to the planet is the smartest thing for me to do.  Yes,
    I FEEL!  But I also THINK!  I believe that the best thing for me to
    do is to learn to love myself more.  I do reach out to others.  But
    I especially reach out to those who are closest to me.  I have a son
    whom I love very much who is now facing $15,000 per year in school
    expenses.  I could turn my back on him and give help to someone I
    don't know...or I could help him, who later on can provide help
    together WITH me.  This is my choice.  I do not feel selfish about
    it.  I do not want to be made to feel guilty about it.  If the world
    had NO apparent wealth, if everyone lived in squalor, where would
    the incentive be to motivate or be motivated?  Those who have wealth
    are beacons of inspiration to many to want to emulate them.  And it
    doesn't take great wealth to do so.  The so-called spiritual beings
    of our religions depend on handouts for their existence.  Without
    their handouts, do you think they'd be comfortable enough with
    themselves to inspire us to want to be like them?  No, most of us
    are inspired by success.  Granted, financial success does not equal
    spirituality.  But spirituality does not have to exclude financial
    success.
         I think I'm going to give this a rest now.  I think I've said
    just about all I need to.  
    
    Frederick
    
    
1084.45STARDM::JOLLIMOREDancing Madly BackwardsWed Jul 19 1989 17:4916
.44 Frederick

I'm certainly not asking you to 'defend' anything. Giving away what you
have isn't the answer, we agree. I *know* in my heart you 'FEEL' and
'THINK'. As /Bruce said, I can't tell you to do x and don't do y nor can
I make you feel guilty about anything.

Incentive to motivate or be motivated? Toward material wealth? Those who
have wealth are not my 'beacons'. Financial success <> spirituality, yes.
Spirituality does not exclude financial success? Let me think about this.
;')  I think you've said far more than you need to ;') it's not a
challenge.

Jay

PS Small nit, it's *5* billion (by estimate) not 4 billion.
1084.46Happy thinking!MISERY::WARD_FRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerWed Jul 19 1989 18:237
    re: Jay .45
    
         RE: the nit.  I know...I was referring to those who are
    struggling, not necessarily all humans of Earth.
    
    Frederick
    
1084.47authenticity... ...world harmonyELMAGO::AWILLETOBeat those heathen drums...Wed Jul 19 1989 23:1131
    The "tone" of this topic certainly has certainly changed when Neal
    Barnette, Cindy Painter, and Toper Cooper joined in.
    
    I am glad to know that I have such fine co-noters to learn from.
    I am going to backtrack to .0 -- and I believe the person was referring
    to a note I entered in the previous topic, "Native American
    Spirituality for Hire" about New Age and charlatan self-help ripoffs.
    
    I find that I agree with Toper regarding "authenticity" -- especially
    about the dilemma of rapid change and the resulting lack of time
    to have change be accepted.
    
    Overall, What I can do best is the best gift I can give to the earth
    and it's inhabitants.  If I enjoy personal harmony, then it radiates
    "spiritually" to others, thus all others in my reach is affected.
    If I am best at helping at soup kitchen, nursing, lecturing, and
    I enjoy doing these activities, then I contribute harmony each time
    I perform them.
    
    I may not like how the charlatans rip off a culture and it's values,
    but then we all have our function in this world.  I see a _____ that
    I dislike for whatever reason, but there is someone who would find
    it proper and enjoys it -- good, it's purpose has been fulfilled.
    I cannot judge whether it is authentic or not, else I lose my personal
    quest for harmony for a moment, and a small gap in the world harmony
    results (*shudder*).
    
    It's all a very personal quest, this life...
    
    Tony Willeto
                                  
1084.48other motives?NATASH::BUTCHARTIntergalactic ElephantThu Jul 20 1989 14:2342
    I feel that some peoples' distress about the "inauthenticity" dilemma
    stems from other sources than just self-righteous justification of
    their own opinions.  Based on people I actually know, (yours truly
    included here) I theorize about a couple of motives:
    
    (1) That some may be sensitized to how much has been ripped off from a
    people already and how that peoples' image and life has already been
    manipulated and exploited for less-than-wonderful ends.  The Native
    Americans have suffered tremendously in this regard at the hands of my
    ancestors.  And when they see things that look like this is happening
    in regard to sacred matters, they think, "omigod, not this too!  Is
    there no limit to the exploitation??"  And even if people are actually
    helped, they feel that the manner in which the help was rendered is
    wrong, because it violates an already disenfranchised group.
    
    (2) That some may consciously or intuitively sense that the many
    seekers who have not yet arrived at the realization that "authentic" 
    spirituality is profoundly unique to each individual, are being ripped
    off.  I have known those who, convinced of their basic "unworthiness"
    and feeling totally inauthentic themselves, are looking for The Way in
    order to validate their right to exist -- period.  But many have been
    so trained NOT to trust their inner Selves that they feel the only way
    to attain any kind of spiritual/personal growth is to have
    Someone-More-Wise-Than-Them show them "The True Way".  If this is what
    they are trying to hook up with, "traditions" that were created on the
    spot, however helpful, are setting them up for more disillusionment and
    trauma.  One can argue that this very trauma will serve to gently (or
    roughly) boot them along their own true paths.  That's probably true,
    but there are those who agonzed if they feel these people are suffering
    needlessly.  And no, I don't feel this that all this anguish is merely 
    ego aggrandizement on the part of those who agonize on their behalf; it
    is more often (in my own experience) over-identification with the
    sufferers, so that the sufferers' pain feels truly their own, and the
    only way they think they can feel better is to ease the sufferers'
    plight.  We are all, I think, more permeable in this regard than we
    realize, and I now feel it takes no small amount of will to develop a
    strong, flexible ego (rather than destroying it) to be able to exercise
    the needed detachment to stay out of this particular trap.  It's all
    the more difficult if one is also striving to live out ideals of
    brotherhood, empathy, right service, the whole schmear.
    
    Marcia
1084.49UBRKIT::PAINTEROne small step...Fri Jul 21 1989 22:338
    
    Re.38 (Nikoloff)
    
    Thank you, Meredith - that was very kind of you to say.
    
    With love,
    
    Cindy