Conference hydra::dejavu

    Ray,  I know you don't want to hear this, but incidents like this
    have been frequently reported to ufo investigators.  I suggest 
    you contact Steve Firmani here at DEC.  Steve is the MUFON state
    director.
    
    Mary

    re: .0
     
         Well, if it isn't too scary and you really want to get to
    the bottom of it, have you considered past life regression or
    hypnosis or similar altered meditative state?  Perhaps you could
    draw stuff out from within yourself.  You might try looking at it
    this way...even if it *was* really weird or gross or whatever, you're
    here, you're okay, you are physically past it.
    
    Frederick
    

    I can understand your reluctance to accept the UFO theory having
    read Bud Hopkins myself. As I recall several of his subjects claim
    repeated abductions, not a pleasant thought. I wasn't all that sold
    on the credibility of his work either (very vague stuff). 
    
    I too had written in the UFO notesfile of an encounter my brother 
    claims to have had and the resonse was nil. It was like they thought
    I was making it up. It should be retitled "the UFO_Skeptic" file.
    
    Based on what you've said, I have no doubt (although I doubt little
    anyway) that what occured was an encounter. My brother also noted
    loss of time, disorientation, red marks on the forearms and nightmares.
    
    It's a large world afterall. 
    
                                       -m 
    

    If there is anything too wierd for DEJAVU, Ray, I've yet to encounter
    it.  This is far from the wierdest thing discussed here.
    
    I do *not* think that you are lying, are crazy or are in any way a
    crackpot.  I think that you experienced something for which there is
    no adequate complete explanation, and it seems to me that it is
    very likely that if any of us had been in the same circumstances the
    same would have occured to us -- or at least that if it would not have
    it would have been because of normally meaningless differences.
    
    I do not see, however, in your reports or similar ones any strong
    reason to invoke the supernatual, the paranormal or the effects of
    any non-human intellegent agency.  I don't reject these explanations
    out-of-hand, but simply find nothing to really support such an
    idea.
    
    "Missing time" (traditionally called, of course, "amnesia", but using that
    term makes it seem too much like something basically understood for
    the alien abduction adherents) is a common brain response to a lot of
    different situations just like coughing is a common lung response to
    a lot of different situations.  Some *known* causes of amnesia (not
    necessarily relevant to your situation) are: concussion, drugs
    (including alchohol), epilepsy, migrain, micro-stroke, anoxia (lack
    of oxygen), psychological trauma and hypoglycemia.  That's off the
    top of my head so shouldn't be taken as complete by any means, and
    of course, does not include unknown causes, which almost certainly
    exist.  Many of these can be occasional or even a one-time event and
    would leave no indication.
    
    There are two aspects of your experience which leaves us with a
    mystery.  One is the bright lights, the other (more important) is that
    it, whatever "it" is, occured to two of you simultaneously.
    
    The lights can be accounted for in several ways.  Looking at this as
    an isolated case they might simply be coincidental (but this isn't
    really an isolated case -- there have been other similar reports).
    The lights -- e.g., a truck in the wrong lane -- might have produced
    stress which triggered the real cause.  The lights may have been
    hallucinagenic -- migraine and epilepsy both frequently are preceded
    with visual effects, including hallucinatory lights, and virtually
    any of the other causes listed might have a similar "precursor".
    
    So the real mystery is what could have caused the same effect to occur
    to two people simultaneously.  It just doesn't make sense that two
    people, for example, would spontaneously, simultaneously develop a
    tiny clot in their temporal lobe (micro-stroke).  Here, I am basically
    stumped.  There are a number of possabilities, but all are rather
    unlikely.
    
    Psychoactive substances -- natural or artificial -- are effective in
    incredibally small quantities.  Some known or unknown such substance
    could have been airborne and come in your open window.  Possible but
    unlikely.
    
    Persinger has shown that the temporal lobe can be stimulated by
    changing magnetic fields of frequency and other characteristics similar
    to what he believes (one of his doctorates is geology) can be produced
    under certain conditions by the earth.  He also believes similar
    conditions can produce ball-lightning like effects piezo-electrically.
    It is his belief that the effect may occasionally be much more
    pronounced naturally than he can produce in his lab, and that many
    people are particularly susceptable to it.  The result -- temporal
    lobe epilepsy in individuals with no other experience of it, producing
    amnesia and cuts and bruises inflicted during body spasms.  Maybe so --
    its a good theory, and explains the facts -- but there is a lot to
    be proven in it yet.
    
    So you have experienced a genuine mystery -- but not one so mysterious
    that we need to invoke LGM ("little green men") or unknown dimensions
    to approach it.
    
    My advice is *not* to get hypnosis or regression.  There is *no* well
    documented case of hypnosis ever restoring accurate memories which
    could be independently verified and which were not already consciously
    known to the subject.  There are many cases where hypnosis has produced
    a sense of absolute conviction for memories of events which provably
    never occured.  If you want to know what happened during that missing
    time, do *not* use hypnosis to try to remember it -- you will only get
    a plausible fiction.
    
    The only thing I can suggest is to go to a good neurologist and see
    if (s)he can detect any indications of epilepsy or whatever.  The
    chances are against it, however, most epilepsy is completely
    undetectable except during an actual seizure.
    
    					Topher

    re: .5 (Topher)
    
        Geez, Topher!  That's some of the worst advice I've ever seen
    you give.  I was fine with everything you wrote up until the last 
    couple of paragraphs, too, by the way.
        This person has a problem...he is experiencing self-doubt
    and anxiety and unknown other stresses over something he can't
    explain.  You suggest he sees a "doctor" (Western-medicine type,
    too, no doubt) so that he can find out "what's wrong with him."
    No one ever said anything was wrong with him, Topher, and all you
    and Western-medicine doctors will do is screw him up with expensive
    bills to find a small contusion in some well-hidden part of the
    body, or some such, and then say "Aha, there's your problem."  BS!
    I don't care if you believe in little green men or not, and it really
    doesn't matter a flying fork whether or not I do...what is important
    is that *HE* keeps an open mind and that *HE* finds an answer which
    provides him with peace of mind.  Your explanations, for what he 
    described, sound *at least* as obtuse as little green men theories
    sound to me.  I say he should explore all possibilities, if he wants
    to, and not leave it to some physician who holds to a very limited
    set of beliefs.  There is no right or wrong, Topher, in his reality
    it may very well have been little green men and there is no way you
    could make him wrong with that experience.  Reality is too expansive
    to limit it's potential to something some clown who graduated 87 out
    of 112 from medical school has to say.
    
    Frederick
    

    Topher,
    
    I am a little surprised to see you suggest that he be checked for
    epilispsy...especially after you had just discounted physical illness
    as a very likely cause.  What are the odds that 2 people would both be
    suffering from epilepsy and would have simultaneous siezures that would 
    last the same amount of time.
    
    I am tending to lean toward abduction, possibly because of bias, but
    also because I can't think of any other cause.  However, I would extend
    the possibilities to include government agency abduction.  Considering
    what the Pentagon has been discovered to have done to citizens and
    other people (not to mention animals) over the past several decades, 
    abducting them and using them to test whatever wouldn't surprise me in 
    the least.

Topher,

   I am certainly taken back afew, to see such a reply from you also.
I would expect that kind of reply in some *other* notesfile not this one.

I.M.H.O.  life holds many more possiblities than that.

Meredith E.

    Topher, 

    The possibility of simultaneous siezures or whatever is remote, and
    becomes even more remote when they end at the same time and both
    individuals seem to have had the same experience.  I can't begin to
    say what it was, but it's easy (for me) to rule out any kind of
    experience that was induced by illness, chemicals or any other
    external event just on the basis of probability.  A mystery to be sure.

    I have a question about hypnosis.  If an individual is genuinely
    in a hypnotic state, is it possible that s/he could 'make up' a
    story?  I am under the impression that individuals subject to
    suggestion under hypnosis will only relate things they have
    experienced in some kind of way at some point in time.  If this is
    true, why would using hypnosis be potentially harmful and/or why
    should someone be skeptical of what is uncovered?

    Terry

    
    I must be weird - I liked what Topher had to say.  I believe that the
    incident did occur.  I personally don't see any reason to believe that
    it would be aliens.  The only thing I don't understand is if Topher
    meant that they had simultaneous epilepsy or what.  I could see one
    person having a "brain storm" and magnetically producing the same 
    effects in the other person (maybe).  This same magnetic field idea
    could also be what gives us gut feelings about someone when we meet
    them.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    
    Guy
    

Re .last few:
    
    Topher presented an alternative hypothesis.  He explicitly said
    he didn't rule out anything.
    
    If you want to keep a truly open mind, here are alternatives:
    
    a) abduction by UFOnauts or other high-tech culture (e.g., deros).
    
    b) neurological glitch.
    
    c) brush with time-stasis vortex.
    
    d) inadvertent consumption of fairy food (which is supposed to cause
       time dilation effects, accordint to tradition).
    
    e) mental attack or probe via telepathy.
    
    f) side effects of a magical attack.
    
    g) slip through a time fault.
    
    h) psychoactive substances inadvertently ingested (e.g., ergot).
    
    i) Cerenkov wake of a superphotic black-holelike particle.
    
    j) side-effects of telepathic positive feedback.
                                                                     
    There are ten alternatives; three were mentioned previously.  Keeping
    an open mind means just that.  
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
        

re: .11 (Steve)
    
    > i) Cerenkov wake of a superphotic black-holelike particle.
    
    Sounds like an Akroyd line from GhostBusters II  ;-)

    Terry

    re: .11 (Steve)
    
         :-))  I like that!  I *know* it was partly tongue-in-cheek, but
    at least it's in keeping with beliefs that go beyond consensus reality
    thinking (and for me that's important.)  All I know is that whenever
    I have an experience of some type that I don't understand or don't
    fully understand (whether it's sexual ;-) or a ufo--as I reported in
    here almost 2 years ago) I don't want anyone laughing "at" me or 
    suggesting I'm crazy (not *that* crazy, anyway) and that they attempt
    to force me into some tidy little package that is limited by their
    tightly wound set of beliefs.  Only the person having the experience
    is able to say what is or isn't ruled out for him/her.  People must
    be free to belief as they will.
    
    Frederick
    

    Re .13 (Fredrick):
    
    >     ..................  I *know* it was partly tongue-in-cheek, but
    >at least it's in keeping with beliefs that go beyond consensus reality
    >thinking (and for me that's important.)
                            
    If it were fully tongue-in-cheek, I would have put in a smiley-face
    icon.  My point is that within the discussion, there were basically
    two views being expressed, and there really are several.  Maybe
    none of those suggested thus far (and that should have been " ...
    a subatomic black-holelike particle") is the answer; and Occam's
    Razor would cause folk to suggest some "answers" have a higher
    probability than others (e.g., "little people" food is probably lower
    on the scale of possibles than is ergot-contaminated food).
    
    My concern has been that _all_ alternatives, even the mundane, ought
    to be weighed.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

RE :.0

	Ray, as a regular UFOS conference reader, I followed your story.
	One day all of your notes got deleted and you said you have been
	harassed, your story was on the network. Everybody understood
	your feelings. A few weeks later you post again the first note of
	the story. Today a friend call me and told me I would be interested
	in reading an UFO experience posted in this conference. Of course,
	this is a big surprise. Aren't you being harassed anymore? Or in
	DEJAVU the things are on the lighter side and nobody takes it serious?


<<    deleted it. I would prefer if people will honor some bit of	<<
<<    being discreet and not pull off hardcopy sending it to UFOologists<<

	Are you afraid of being investigated? If you want your case reported
	you have to be subjected to a study, like it or not. If you think 
	your case is not on the UFOs category you shouldn't have posted it
	their on the first place!


<<    etc. If I get any negative flack, I'll be forced to delete my	><
<<    notes. I decided to post here since there's a larger readership   <>

	That is nothing new on that. If you have the courage to come outside
	and tell your story (as was told to you on the UFOs conference, it
	takes a lot of courage to do so), you should expect negative reactions,
	but also positive words.



RE: .4 (Adams)

    
<>    I too had written in the UFO notesfile of an encounter my brother    <>
<>    claims to have had and the resonse was nil. It was like they thought <>
<>    I was making it up. It should be retitled "the UFO_Skeptic" file.    <>

	Your brother episode was only more to the record. You share with all
	noters your brother's experience. Your note has 13 reply's. 



RE: .5 (Thopher)

	Science is not your everyday common sense. You maybe right when
	you said Ray may suffer from epilepsy, but you are saying that
	just because every single theory you tested during your explanation
	failed to be consistent with the facts. When you use to access the
	UFOs conference, you did that a lot of times.



<<    crackpot.  I think that you experienced something for which there is >>
<<    no adequate complete explanation, and it seems to me that it is      >>

	If you have no adequate complete (do you have a partial ???) explanation
	don't rule out UFOS! And by the way, every explanation is complete just
	until a new one arrives!

<<    "Missing time" (traditionally called, of course, "amnesia", but using >>

	Is amnesia when watches stop? Or how do you think UFOs investigators
	would accept that as an UFO phenomenon? If you are trying to make a
	scientific approach, don't forget to look into every single variable
	involved, otherwise your approach will not be scientific!

    
>>    The lights can be accounted for in several ways.  Looking at this as <<

	You are forgetting the weather balloon! 

<<    Persinger has shown that the temporal lobe can be stimulated by         <<
<<    changing magnetic fields of frequency and other characteristics similar <<

	You are absolutely right with it! Experiences have been conducted in
	Canada using mouses. The electromagnetic field maybe changed to
	change human beaver. This maybe a cause for losting time. But the
	question is still there:  Who changed the electromagnetic field?


<<    never occured.  If you want to know what happened during that missing  >>
<<    time, do *not* use hypnosis to try to remember it -- you will only get >>
<<    a plausible fiction.                                                   >>

	Are there other ways to do so?

<<    The only thing I can suggest is to go to a good neurologist and see >>
<<    if (s)he can detect any indications of epilepsy or whatever.  The   >>
<<    chances are against it, however, most epilepsy is completely        >>
<<    undetectable except during an actual seizure.                       >>

	Group epilepsy, this is new Topher! :-)
    


RE: .11 (Steve)

<<    Topher presented an alternative hypothesis.  He explicitly said <<
<<    he didn't rule out anything.                                    <<

	That's not what I read!


RE: .13 (Frederick)

<<    tightly wound set of beliefs.  Only the person having the experience <<
<<    is able to say what is or isn't ruled out for him/her.  People must  <<
<<    be free to belief as they will.                                      <<
    
	I agree with you. And if you choose to share that experience, you
	should not expect answers you already know no one has.

    
    -----

	I don't rule out any explanation. I only know this has been with us
	since the beginning of times. I believe you had an UFO experience,
	like thousands of others. You are the (un)lucky one! I just don't
	understand what you are looking for, or what you looked for! :-)

	Rui

    

    Re .15 (Rui):
       
><<    Topher presented an alternative hypothesis.  He explicitly said <<
><<    he didn't rule out anything.                                    <<
>
>	That's not what I read!
    
    
    Topher said:
    
    .5>.......................... I don't reject these explanations
    .5>out-of-hand, but simply find nothing to really support such an
    .5>idea.                              
 
    I take that to mean that he didn't/doesn't rule out anything, though
    he presented another hypothesis to account for what might have taken
    place.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.   

    re: .15 (Rui)
    
        "...change human beaver."
    
        Sounds like an interesting situation, can I be of service?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)
    

    Re .18 (Fredrick):
    
    >Sounds like an interesting situation, can I be of service?
        
    Depends, I guess.  Do you have a good electromagnetic field source?
    :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Re .20 (Ray):
    
    Without doubting your story a minute, let me take up Topher's cudgel
    for a moment to make a point.
    
    >..................... After the episode in 74 I confided
    >in one friend [a fellow college student] who told me "Keep a lid
    >on this". When I asked why he replied, "Ya don't want to attract
    >any flack". When I asked from who, he replied, "The feds".......
    >now why would he be so explicit in warning me about government
    >interest in my missing two hours.[?]
    
    
    In .0, you noted the following --
    
    >...........................Paul also got violently ill and was
    >running a fever and puking his guts out all weekend. At the time
    >he figured he had a stomach bug. The bruises faded in a few days
    >and disappeared in a week or so.
    >When Paul took his watch to a jeweler to be fixed he was told
    >it was beyond repair, that the circuitry that drove the little
    >tuning forks had been cooked.
                                         
    These data suggest _an_ alternate explanation.  This might _not_
    be the correct one, but I present it to show other possibilities.
    
    On the cape is (or was; I haven't been following that closely) 
    a PAVE PAWS radar facility that put out a lot of solid electromagnetic
    energy.  Suppose someone was running a test on the unit (or on
    something associated with the unit) at that time of night and either
    there was spillover or you happened into a test area by accident?
    Then whatever test was being run could have resulted in the symptoms
    described (nausea after a period of unconsciousness in the case
    of your friend; involuntary bruising on your part).  If the two
    of you were rendered unconscious by such a test, you might have
    been found by, say, Air Police, and put back into your car (with
    one of the APs putting your car keys in your pocket).  An energy
    pulse could have fried your friend's Accutron, FWIW.
    
    Under that scenario, the feds would have been interested in your
    story, not because they were looking for UFOs, but because of the
    security aspects of what was involved.
    
    >    One thing I forgot to post in the base note was a cnoversation
    >I had with a year round Provincetown resident. She basically told
    >me that my story was the 3rd or 4th she had heard on the lower Cape
    >that year, this was Sunday of the weekend in question.
     
    That tracks with the hypothesis I've just forwarded.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re: -.1
    
    It seems to me that if the Air Police found them either unconscious or
    very confused, they would have taken them to the nearest hospital. 
    
    
    Ray, you may want to consider some kind of therapy, not because you're
    loony (you're not), not to try to find out what did or didn't happen to
    you (I'm finding one of the hardest things in life to accept is that
    sometimes life insists on remaining a mystery--at least until its ready
    to reveal itself), but to help you come to terms with the experience so 
    you can be freed from the emotional after effects.
    
    Personally, I would be very interested in some kind of _quality_      
    hypnosis or regression therapy, but that's because I get horribly
    curious and once I latch onto a mystery in my life I have a hard time
    letting go, until I've unraveled it to my satisfaction.

    Last Wednesday (6/14) the program "Misteries....?" on the Boston
    Ch. 4, was about missing time. The case presented happened on the
    Cape in late 60's. Maybe somebody would care to describe it better,
    because I didn't watch all program.
    
    About the electromagnetic fields, I may add that an official study
    has been conducted in Canada, sponsored by some US government
    agency (ABC/Good Morning America/6.19.1989). Looks like it can be
    used (at least in mouses) to control violent beavers. We are for
    the neurologic as the 30's were for the nuclear. Maybe the lost
    time is created by changes on the electromagnetic field. If is this
    what real happen (no matter who's the source), 4th dimension, spirits,
    and other sort of simple explanations to complex subjects, are on
    the way to where they came from - the human mind.
    
    --
    
    The UFO comunity has to study the cases that are presented to them.
    I don't have numbers, but some of them are explained. When an UFO
    interest group accepts a case as a true UFO sight, has to be sure
    that is an unknowm fenomenon. And the letters UFO don't stand for
    alien. Maybe some of the sights will be explained in the future
    as an Earth fenomenon. Who knows?
    
    --
    
    I have a lot of respect for Ray. If what he needs is understanding
    for what happen maybe he should say that. We all agree that go through
    an experience like that should be tough. But don't blame UFO's
    conference.
    
    Rui 
    (Yes, my name is Rui [Rue])
    

Re: 23
    
    I saw that show and it is just what Ray is talking about.  Infact
    very very much so.  Ray, there is a good chance you might be able
    to get a transcript of the show.  There were names of people who
    are following this, working on it, trying to find the same answers
    you are.
    
    Good Luck
    HC

    re: Rui (and Steve)
    
         I have always known man has been trying to control violent
    beavers, but I guess I've never tried electromagnetics before.
    Is this different than using conventional arms?
    
    Frederick
    ;-)

    re .21
    
    Steve:
    
    	>	....Solid Electromagnetic Energy...
    
    Can I assume you are being figurative?
    
    Was Pave Paws operational or testing that early?
    
    Without checking (where?) I would have thought it was later than
    Ray's time frame.
    
    	Ray:	Thanks for sharing your story...
    
    thanks
    dwp

	No wonder we have violent beavers!! You would be mad too if the
	government was trying to PAVE your PAWS!!

	How do they keep those critters still?

    Re .26 (Dave):
    
       >Can I assume you are being figurative?
    
       Yes.  "Solid" as in "a good lot of."
    
       >Was Pave Paws operational or testing that early?
    
       I thought early testing started about the time frame involved.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    One thing to remember is that the missing time was not the only odd
    thing that happened that night.  As I recall, there were several
    unexplained events, which could have been unrelated and coincidental,
    or related and integral to a whole experience.  So even if the lost 
    time is explained, there were events that need explaining.
    
    The unexplained events were:
    
    1.  two people simultaneously lose approximately 2 hours & 15 minutes
    
    2.  On regaining everyday consciousness, both people feel like they've
        been "slipped a mickey"  (question:  does this mean groggy?
        headaches?)
    
    3.  On regaining everyday consciousness, car keys have moved or been
        moved from ignition to driver's pocket
    
    4.  On regaining consciousness, it is discovered that passenger's
        electronic watch has stopped within a few minutes of the appearance 
        of the headlights that mark the beginning of the experience.  It is 
        later learned that the interior of the watch was "cooked."
    
    5.  3 Dark red, pencil-eraser sized bruises appear on Driver's chest
        3 similar bruises appear just below Passenger's naval
    
    6.  Passenger becomes violently ill that weekend (is it coincidence
        or significance that a major symptom of the illness was severe 
        vomiting and the bruises were on the abdomen?)
    
    7.  Both start having recurring nightmares related to oncoming
        headlights that last for some time after the experience (suggests
        that whatever happened was very traumatic)
    
    8.  Passenger has similar experience on opposite side of country 9
        years later                  

    Boy did I pick the wrong time to be out with a cold for a couple of
    days!! ;-) 

    I won't attempt to reply to everything one note at a time, but to deal
    instead with topics -- 

Hypnosis -- The major effect of hypnosis is a reduction of what
    psychologists call "reality testing" -- the ability to distinguish
    fantasy from reality.  The much vaunted increase in "suggestibility"
    (at least as psychologists use the word) is so small as to be hard to
    measure.  In actuality our natural levels of suggestibility are held
    in restraint by reality testing -- our tendency to doubt what we are
    told (alternately you might say, using the term "suggestibility" a
    little less narrowly than psychologists do that almost all the increase
    in suggestibility is due to the reduction of reality testing). 

    Much of what we "remember" is fantasy filling in the gaps between
    details which we actually do remember, and reality testing keeps that
    filling in within bounds -- both of "rationality" and not straying to
    far from the actually remembered "facts".  A hypnotized person will,
    quite unknowingly, fantasize freely -- independently of the skill of
    the hypnotist.  This has to do with what is happening within the
    hypnotized person not what is happening between the hypnotized person
    and the hypnotist.  Once established those memories will seem as real
    as any other memories. The best a good hypnotist can do is a) not
    believe that what is produced is anything but fantasy and b) minimize
    the "cues delivered" so that the fantasy is purely the hypnotized
    persons not the hypnotists (it is humanly impossible, however, to avoid
    this completely, so there will always be a bit of the hypnotist woven
    into the "fabric" of the fantasy). 

    A hypnotized person is as capable of lying if they want to than an
    unhypnotized person is (they are somewhat but not overwhelmingly less
    likely to want to), and is much, much more capable of fantasizing. 

    Hypnosis may be used in a number of ways to help amnesia victims come
    to terms with their memory loss and other aspects of situations such as
    Ray describes -- including by creating false memories.  But it is not
    the right tool for discovering a forgotten set of events directly. 

Pushing my ideas on Ray -- I don't believe I did that.  Ray asked for
    comment -- with an implication that he was looking for alternatives to
    UFO abduction explanations.  I presented some of my thoughts on the
    matter, without intending any criticism of people who think otherwise. 

    Frederick, within my reality, I too had an experience.  My experience
    was Ray's recounting of *his* experience.  Within my reality that
    experience has an explanation (although I don't know what it is).  I
    shared -- within my reality -- some thoughts about that explanation
    with others in hope that some might find those musings useful either by
    accepting, rejecting or just jumping off from them.  However, this took
    place entirely within *my* reality.  You are responsible for creating
    whatever it is you perceived as my note within your reality. 

    Do I believe the preceding paragraph?  No.  Within my reality I don't
    create my reality -- I only edit it a bit.  But I'm quite willing to
    deal in "what ifs", and I think that within the CYOR philosophy my
    reality is just as good as anyone else's.  Or is there a requirement
    that a creation has to be similar to yours or it isn't as real? 
                                                                   
Recommending seeing a neurologist -- In my view doctors come somewhere between
    the extremes of being demons and being gods.  This view puts them a bit
    lower on the scale than some doctors would put themselves.  Dr.
    Persinger, contrary to the medical establishment, sees epilepsy
    (specifically temporal lobe epilepsy) as being the result of a
    continuum of sensitivities.  Various internal and external influences
    can change the level of sensitivity of an individual.  If the
    sensitivity is pushed past a certain point than the temporal lobe goes
    into a sort of neuroelectric spasm, which results in the symptoms of
    an epileptic seizure.  A given stimulus is more likely to push someone
    who is on the "more sensitive" side of the continuum across that
    threshold than someone who is on the "less sensitive" side. 

    Whether or not Dr. Persinger is correct about geomagnetic fields being
    likely triggers for this phenomenon, it seems to me this sensitivity
    scale is quite plausible.  It seemed to me worthwhile to recommend that
    Ray see a neurologist to see if he showed signs of "epilepsy" (which,
    within Persinger's model just means someone who is frequently near the
    "sensitive" side of the continuum).  It was up to him to decide whether
    or not he would actually feel better knowing the medical evidence about
    this (particularly since many people who are clear, severe epileptics
    show know EEG signs of this between seizures -- even though they may
    suffer several a day, and also since showing signs of epilepsy would
    not show that he had suffered a seizure during this incident). 

    Frederick, I would be *very* careful, if I were you in recommending
    that people with possible medical conditions not seek medical advice.
    Doctors have their limitations but they also have their uses. 

Explanations -- I don't know what could have caused simultaneous amnesia in
    two people.  As far as I know there is no "standard" explanation which
    fits very well.  I think that we will need something new to explain it.
    But there is "new" and there is "new".  Lots of things are unexplained
    and eventually require new discoveries to understand them.  Most
    require, however, only a small bit of new knowledge or a minor revision
    of the old rather than a major revamping of what we know. 

    I am quite willing to accept that this may be a case where such
    revamping may be needed.  As many of you know, I have committed much of
    my life to work in an area where I believe the evidence is very strong
    that such radical revamping *is* needed (parapsychology) --  I am not
    afraid of such ideas.  But I do believe that it is fruitful to look at
    evolutionary ideas for explaining this before expending too much effort
    on revolutionary ideas. 

    Simultaneous epilepsy *is* a "new" idea (not new from me, but not part
    of accepted theory), but epileptic seizures explains all the events --
    lights, memory loss, apparent unremembered purposive behavior, bruises,
    broken machinery, immediate aftereffects and long term aftereffects
    (talk to any epileptic about aftereffects).  Simultaneity implies either
    an outside influence or one epileptic attack somehow triggering the
    other.  For various reasons I find the former more plausible than the
    latter. 

    Of the possible external triggers, two seem to me to have *some*
    plausibility: chemical and electromagnetic.  So I mentioned them. 

    What do I believe?  I don't know.  No single theory stands out to me as
    individually likely, and even the generic theory of "simultaneous
    epilepsy triggered by something unknown" does not seem to me to be a
    clear winning bet.  I do *not* reject alien abduction as an
    explanation. But if I could think of some plausible, only minorly
    radical, explanations, then I'm willing to bet that there are others
    which I lack the imagination or the knowledge to come up with. 

    I do not, therefore, see this incident as a reason to believe in the
    radical incorrectness of the conventional view of things in this area.
    It may, of course, be due to that -- just as the many walking down the
    street with his shoes on the wrong feet may be an alien who never
    learned how shoes are worn properly -- but I'll need a better reason
    than that to believe it likely. 

Watches, amnesia and missing time -- a timepiece which is slow by an amount
    roughly equivalent to the gap in someone's memory might be taken as
    evidence of an externally valid "missing time" (or at least an external
    influence which caused both the amnesia and the "freezing" of the
    timepiece). A watch which has stopped is simply a piece of broken
    machinery -- however subtle the breakage.  This could be caused, for
    example, by a powerful electromagnetic field or by a physical shock. 

    If someone does not remember something which they experienced and would
    not normally have forgotten this is called amnesia.  Amnesia just means
    "not remembering".  It is amnesia whatever the cause -- sleep,
    concussion drugs, or whatever -- including extraterrestrial "amnesia
    rays". 

    That changes in the experiants' bodies took place -- bruises and the
    keys placed in the pocket -- indicated that they didn't just physically
    jump ahead in time.  Therefore they experienced amnesia about what took
    place during that time period. 

One specific reply -- .13 (Frederick)

    > I don't want anyone laughing "at" me or suggesting I'm crazy.

    Just to be sure that this is clear -- I am in no way laughing at
    anybody nor am I suggesting that anyone is crazy.  I think Ray had a
    very real experience and I see no reason to suppose that the reason he
    had that experience or remembers what he does is because he is in any
    sense crazy or "abnormal".  I think that it is very likely that any one
    or all of us, including myself, would have had much the same experience
    if we had been there. 

				    Topher

    Hey Ray......check this out!!!
    
      I'm a musician. About two years ago I played - for a time - with
    a guitarist that haled from Newport News, Virginia; he was level-
    headed, educated, sincere, and an all around nice guy. One day we
    began talking about unexplainable phenomena and he told me a story
    that is quite similar to what I read in your note. Before telling
    the story he made mention of the fact that this experience that
    he and his brother shared was something that neither one of them
    up to this time, were willing to tell to just anyone, and, for the
    first year or two after the experience, told absolutely no one.
    
      Their parents owned a cottage on an island off of the Virginia
    coast that was environmentally much the same as the area you had
    your experience. One night - a very clear night with excellent
    visability - they were hiking along the ridges of these huge sand
    dunes. Out in the distance, not too high in the sky and over the
    ocean they suddenly noticed these three, brilliant orbs of light
    heading toward them. The last thing they remembered was standing
    there in mute bewilderment, wondering what it was they were seeing.
    The source of the lights made absolutely no sound. The next thing
    they knew, both of them were in a prone position, lying on their
    bellys side by side, paralyzed and in silence. Suddenly, after lying 
    there for a short period of time, both of them exclaimed simultaneously:
    "Goddamn"!!!, and jumped up together.
    
      At the time they were in their mid-teens and not under the influence
    of either booze or drugs. The most disturbing thing about this is,
    not only how they got from a standing position to a prone one without
    knowing it, but also the apparent absence of time; they had no way
    of clocking how long they were out or when they went out at the
    time; and, also, that while lying on the ground, they were for a
    time, completely speechless and paralyzed. When they broke out of
    this condition they were in, the lights were gone.
    
                             
                            Hope this helps....Paul.
    
     

    I've very surprised that no one has mentioned a *known* method
    which could be used to trigger simultaneous epileptic bouts:
    Flashing lights.
    
    We've known for decades that a light flashing at four times per
    second will do the trick, and we've known for just as long that
    some people who design flashing lights (like the cursor on a video)
    are pig-ignorant of this and continue to produce lights that
    flash at "bad" rates.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    Re: .33
    
    	Ann B., I'll buy that.
    
    	But that still doesn't explain the burnt-out watch, or bodily
    sores.  The sores could have been self-afflicted (somehow), but
    how easy is it to fry a watch?
    
    	/Greg Aharonian
    

RE: .33
    
    Quit true, Ann, and I should have thought to mention it.
    
    However, ...
    
    Someone who is likely to be triggered by this kind of stimulus is
    someone who is likely to be triggered more or less frequently -- i.e.,
    someone who is likely to have been identified as an epileptic (we
    are not, after all, talking about any of the more subtle manifestations
    of epilepsy).  Two people being that sensitive but remaining unaware
    of it and undetected seems *very* unlikly.  A flashing light may have
    been a final trigger but if so, there would have to be some other --
    relatively unusual -- environmental situation which would have
    sensitized them to it.
    
    					Topher

    Oh, yes, of course.
    
    But I was thinking of it in conjunction with Steve's PAVE PAWS
    theory....
    
    						Ann B.

    1. I, too, saw that Unsolved Mysteries episode.  It was intriguing.
       I can't say yea or nay, but I do know UM checks their stories
       six ways 'til Sunday so no-one can run up yelling "Hoax!" 2
       days later.   With luck, that episode will be included in their
       summer re-runs.
       
    2. I assume the watch in question is long gone?  Physical evidence
       always seems to be lacking or disappearing in these matters.
       I wonder why that is?
    
    3. Ray, I feel for you.  I know if it happened to me I'd be constantly
       looking over my shoulder.  Did you say you'd had a complete physical
       afterwards? 
       
       No doubt about it; you gotta go see *somebody*.  Good luck.
      
    						Don
    
    P.S. Nothing remotely considered as a paranormal event has ever
         happened to me.  It not only appears I have a negative effect
         on such occurances, but also manage to "just miss it".  Maybe
         this is why this stuff is so intriguing.
                                                     

	These experiences sound very similar to those documented in the book
"Communion" by Whitley Streber. From memory Streber also describes a 
type of self help group of people who had shared the same experience.

	It might be worthwhile contacting this group.

    
    	re .38
    
        > Whitley Streiber
    
    
    	  I would suggest NOT reading anything by Streiber. Let me tell you
          a story about a man named Whitley.
    
    	  He came to Hopkins with his story, and Hopkins sort of took him
    	  under his wing. Hopkins then brought him into his counseling group
    	  for abductees. In these sessions the group found Streiber to be
    	  extremely irratating, and arrogant, it came to a point where they
    	  could not stand him at all.
    
    	  To top it off, Streiber pulled strings in the publishing industry
    	  so that Communion would be released before "Intruders", virtually
    	  stabbing Hopkins in the back after all he had done for Whitley.
    
    	  Whitley Steiber is a fake, making Von Daniken look like a Rhodes
    	  Scholar. What's more, the man can hardly even be called a decent
    	  human being.
    
          His books are strictly conjecture, and do not present one ounce
    	  of fact, no case studies other than his own, and does not back
    	  anything up at all, no lab reports, no nothing.
    
          Stay away from Streiber. 
    	
    	  /prc

    On the other hand to defend Whitley a bit: I've met him and talked
    several times, quite some time before Communion came out. Certainly
    none of what you have described, was present in the person I met.

    A dear friend of mine used Whitley's cabin in the period 1981-1984 to
    finish up a couple of novels at various times. (This was well before
    Whitely started talking about this. I forget if it's before the events
    in Communion, I don't recall the dates of those events.) He didn't like
    going there much but it was away from everything and he could get a lot
    of work done. He told me it felt "funny" there. His girlfriend went with
    him once and swore she would never go back. I asked her why and she
    wasn't really able to tell me, except she felt watched and
    uncomfortable and had nightmares there. She said it was a bad place.
    FWIW.

    
    	I'm not doubting Whitley's encounters, just his ethics. 
    
        /prc
    	

    
    re .42
    
    Another classic case. Sounds like he had an implant put in his ear. Too
    bad I wasn't there to talk with him also.
    
    /prc

    Re:  .30
    
    What's the protocol for UFO investigations?  Do dreams count?  
    
    DR

    
    re:.44
    
    huh?
    
    What do you mean suggestive?  Symbolic?
    
    Guy

re:  .45 
    
    My wording was on the tentative side, because *I* didn't dream the
    nightmares, and I believe only the dreamer can discern the true meaning
    of a dream.

re:  .30    

>>    In the nightmares, I'm aware of wherever I am is moving very fast. 
>>    I feel someone touching me and wake up screaming. 
    
    If dreams count in UFO investigation, these would tend to support 
    the abduction scenario, be it little green men or big ones with 
    green uniforms (i.e., government).  
    
    Donald Reinke

    .32.....
             That's wild!! Isn't it great to have your own experience
    cooroborated like that? You may find it interesting to know that,
    for hundreds of years, men at sea have witnessed and reported a
    great deal of u.f.o. phenomena. I once had a book in my possession
    entitled "Is There Intelligent Life Beneath the Ocean? : A study
    of u.a.o.'s - or, unidentified aquatic objects.
    
            The book was full of intriguing accounts reported by men
    at sea throughout history. Several of these accounts stand out in
    my mind: 
           
             While mapping the ocean floor sonorgraphically somewhere
    near the mid-Atlantic Ridge - the greatest mountain range on the
    face of the earth that traverses the entire Atlantic basin - a
    research team was dumbfounded when, after sending a sonorgraphic
    signal down to the ocean floor, it returned to them not once - 
    which a signal like this should do under any condition - but twice,
    then followed by a signal that their computers couldn't decipher,
    almost as if the signal was at first mocked and then followed up
    with one of their own........
      
         and.....The navy, while out on maneuvers tracking a new sub
    on radar, picked up an object moving at an unheard of rate of speed
    underwater - I forget the exact figures - and moving down to depths
    that no man-made could object could plummet - 20,000 ft.?
    
        Reports of huge luminescent objects rising out of the sea and
    shooting into the sky from 19th century sailors. Sometimes these
    things would appear beneath the ships and track them for a distance.
    
        Several years ago, a neighbor of mine who is as pragmatic as
    he is rational, told me one day that he had seen something that
    he could not quite explain. He was with his girl one night at a
    beach in Manchester, Mass., when they spotted a wierd light way
    out and hovering low to the ocean. While watching this light flitter
    about erratically, suddenly a brilliant splashing of light erupted
    from what appeared to be the underside of this object. He told me
    that this eruption of light reminded him of the power and size of
    one entire tier of lights at a sports stadium going on simultaneously.
    The object then continued moving erratically - this time zig-zagging
    - and then shot of into the distance at a speed that left him with
    an awestruck, otherworldly feeling.
    
       I have also witnessed several things that are worth mentioning............
    Some other time.
    
                         Paul.
                                         
    

RE: .47 (Paul)
    
    Sorry, Paul, but this book doesn't sound very reliable.
    
    If you do not get your signals back from sonar than you are wasting
    your time.
    
    And sonar is really rather unreliable all-in-all.  It is *very* subject
    to effects similar to what would be called mirages if it were light
    and on the surface.  They are *much* more common than mirages, however,
    you can't do sonar in deep water without getting a lot of clutter of
    various sorts.  Most important is refraction and reflection caused by
    masses of water with different salinity or temperature.  Such
    thermoclines very commonly create double images.
    
    Also you cannot use radar underwater, except for very short distances,
    especially salt water.  Water is a conductor and shorts out the
    microwaves used by radar.  What would have been used is sonar and the
    same comments as mentioned above apply.  Its very hard to take truly
    anomalous results from sonar as anything but interesting noise.
    
    This doesn't mean, of course, that the book may not contain lots of
    interesting and accurate information, only that I would take it with
    a grain of salt -- if you've reported it accurate the author was
    insufficiently critical.
    
    					Topher

    Reply to .48, 
    
    I'd like to echo Tophers statements. I worked with sophisticated
    passive and active submarine sonars (BQS 13) and under ice sonars on
    two nuclear attack boats, USS Pogy and USS Tautog.
    
    Sound travels through water anywhere between 4800 and 5100 feet per
    sec. Layers of cool water are denser, turning back sound over larger
    distances. Thermal layers and sound channels make active sonar use
    unreliable.
    
    Under ice sonar is higher freq. These are in the 100k range, (per
    dusty memory) I've seen dolphins attempt to talk to under ice sonars.
    
    General rule--the higher the freq the greater the resolution and the
    less distance, the lower freq. the greater the distance and lesser
    reliability.
    
    Radar is ineffective as an underwater detection tool. Infrared seems
    better from high in the sky.
    
    This is not to say that our 'spooks' don't have new toys to play with.
    B^) New radars can do some pretty neat stuff but I doubt they could
    penetrate over 50 feet of water.

     
      re: 48 and 49......
    
           You guys are probably right. To tell you the truth, although
    I find the notion or possibility of our planet having been visited
    by beings from another world fascinating, disproving these stories
    would suit me just as well proving them to be true.
    
           P.T. Barnum once said "there's a sucker born every minute"
    and when it comes to perusing the many, many books written on the sub-
    ject of u.f.o. phenomena I think his advice should be seriously
    heeded. As an example, it has been reported in a number of books
    and in a film, "U.F.O.S Are Real", that a number of astronauts on
    both the Apollo and Gemini projects have seen, reported, and even
    photographed u.f.o's in space; but I cannot remember one of these
    men giving their testimony in person in a real interview. In fact,
    I think it was on a "Nova" special on u.f.o.'s that Pete Conrad,
    mission commander of one of the later Apollo expeditions, talked
    about these reputed sightings in space and put them off as nonsense.
    
        There is a photograph, supposedly taken by the crew of Apollo
    11, of this massive, wierd thing that looks like a hydra hovering
    over the rim of the earth. There are many standard u.f.o. photos
    that we see all the time, but I've only seen this one two or three
    times and in u.f.o. documentaries on t.v.; never in a book. You
    would think that such a clear, dramatic, and haunting image would
    warrant more exposure - especially among u.f.o. buffs. Judging
    from the tone and content of interviews held with the crew of Apollo
    11, those three men are either under wraps by the government not
    to say anything - which, at this point in time, I tend to doubt
    - or the photo is nothing more than another fabrication.
    
        In the mid-sixties, my mother and I - I was either 7 or 8 at
    the time -  were watching a late night simulation of one of the
    Surveyor projects on its way to the moon. Across the the bottom
    of the screen in teletype ran a message that read somthing like:
    unidentified object has been picked up pacing along side of surveyor.
    Those aren't the exact words but you get the idea. Nothing more
    on that on that intriguing and mystifying statement was ever mentioned
    later on; it was if the the subject had been squelched.
                                                           
         On the other hand though, if experiences such as what happened
    to Ray  and the person he met in P-town (as well as the my friend
    from Virginia) are true, something strange is indeed going on.
     
         I find it interesting that all three of the missing time 
    experiences reported in this note occured in and around sand dunes.
    Two, at different times on the Cape, and the one I know of in Virginia.
    That is why I brought up the book on unidentified aquatic objects
    in my previous note. But then, most of that book is probably nothing
    more than a collection of embellished half-truths.
    
               Paul......
          
                           

re: .50

	I don't mean to wander off this topic, but your reply reminded me
	of something interesting I read (can't remember where).  It was 
	about 'The Face from Mars' photo that Voyager took.  If you haven't
	seen it, it is a striking image of a face.  When it was first
	received by NASA they immediately classified it.  It wasn't 
	published for several years.  The author found this peculiar but
	more so was that there was a Japanese scupltor who, just after the
	second World War, decided to create a huge sculpture of a face in
	Japan.  The drawings of his work are identical to the photo taken
	by Voyager.  Even more remarkable was the title of the work,
	"The Face That Can Be Seen From Mars"...

	Terry

RE: .51
    
    It was *not* classified.  It was available to anyone who wanted to
    get it out of the picture archives.  It was not *noticed* for several
    years.  However striking it is after zooming and digital enhancement
    its just an irregular blob among many others in the raw data.
    
    					Topher

    
    re: .51
    
    I believe I saw a book on this somewhere, but I don't remember the
    title.  The book claimed that there are other nearby remnants of an
    ancient civilization - all laid out in some significant pattern or
    something.  It is interesting, but I'd only believe it if a probe could
    bring back some ancient tools or, say, photos of some prehistoric 
    water closet.
    
    ;-)
    
    Guy

    There is a note regarding the face on Mars in the UFOS note conference.
    
    Re: .52
    
    Topher,  There are many highly-qualified scientists who believe
    that it is NOT just a blob...... (and yes, there are many highly-
    qualified scientists who would agree with you....)
    
    Time will tell....
    
    Linda

    re: last couple
     
          ...And if Woosh Bush keeps to his script, he'll
    be announcing planned manned missions to Mars, so maybe
    the time will be sooner than later.
    
    Frederick
    

RE: .54 (Linda)
    
    First off, I was not commenting, pro or con, on the status of the
    feature as artifact.  I was simply commenting that until you get a
    close-up and clean up the noise a bit, it only looks a bit like a face.
    There are many, many pictures and it took a while before anyone
    investigated that particular, vaguely face-like (in the available
    "zoomed out") blob.  It was *not* classified.  Any attempt to classify
    it would have been immediately obvious to planetary scientists (there
    would have been some frames either missing or marked as classified in
    the index) and it would have resulted *instantly* in a gigantic outcry
    from the scientific community -- who don't like classification of
    public, non-military research, and who would not agree that there was
    *anything* on Mars which needed classification.
    
    Second, there are a *few* scientists and/or engineers who believe that
    there is significant evidence that it is an artifact.  By what
    criterion have you determined that they are highly-qualified in the
    specific task of recognizing the artifactual nature of a terrain
    photo from orbital photographs of a an alien landscape?  (Not denying
    their qualifications, mind you, only asking how one determines them).
    
    And yes, time will, hopefully tell.  It is a foregone conclusion,
    however, that whatever negative evidence is found, the face will
    continue to be paraded as an "unexplained mystery" by some.
    
    					Topher

    Re: Face on Mars...
    
    So what's the big deal??
    
    Hundreds of rock formations in Colorado look like faces. Big ones,
    small ones, we even gottem lookin' like upheld hands and teeth. Ya'
    don't need a telescope or go to Mars to find a rocky face lookin'
    thingie. They're all in my back yard.