Conference hydra::dejavu

    Hi Cindy,
    
    I keep coming across that number too.  Talking with the psychic
    (Richard Greene) the other night, he mentioned the number 7,000
    in connection with enlightened souls (masters).  Has anyone heard
    that number?  How does in tie in with the 144,000?
    
    Ro
    

    [copied without permission from Agartha, pp. 167 - 171, printed
    1984.  Also, see related notes 131.19 and 148.0 ]

    Group awareness, group effectiveness training, group dynamics and 
    group counseling are all familiar terms and all hint at the lesson 
    of recognizing and learning to use group power appropriately and 
    effectively. Indeed the world needs to learn of group dynamics in 
    order  to move into its new course of harmonious realignment with 
    the spirit. The usual attitude  toward groups is that they are 
    necessary for some decisions. But is the individual aware that the 
    energy or power of a group with a common vision, the actual units 
    of energy generated, increase in direct square proportion to the 
    size of the group?
    
    If the power of a group can be the number of the people within a 
    group squared, one can quickly see that each group's power 
    increases exponentially with size. This power is the power of 
    creative energy which can manifest in specific physical form, not 
    only making things happen quicker but making them happen in line 
    with expectation. The actual units of power to change and create 
    thoughts and actions grow in a greater proportion when in a 
    harmonious group than in a unintegrated group.
    
    For example, a group of people may get together to start a school. 
    The collective vision is the same as the individual vision. 
    Through discussion, and also disagreement, the specifics of the 
    goal begin to take shape, The people involved in creating the 
    school have become a unified body with a goal and a means of 
    reaching that goal. If there are twenty-five people in the group, 
    25 times 25 (or 25 squared) equals 625 units of viable energy. The 
    comparison is between 625 units of energy manifested by the 
    unified group compared with only 25 units of energy which 
    would have been manifested had they been able to form a unified 
    body.
    
    Remember: group power equals the square of the number of people 
    within a group. If there is a group of 100 people who share a 
    common vision and interact to achieve that goal, then the number 
    within the group (100) squared equals the group's power (100 X 
    100 energy units) or 10,000 units of generated energy. And to 
    complete the example, if there is a group of 100 people who do not 
    share a common vision but are nonetheless thrown together in a 
    group, then that group's power is equal only to the simple 
    addition of the power of each individual member 1 + 1 + 1 + (etc.) 
    up to 100 to equal 100 units of general energy. As one can see, 
    those in a small unified group would have potentially more power 
    than those in a much larger but fragmented group.
    
    Let us consider the world as a group - a group of continents, 
    bodies of water, and most importantly, a group of people. What 
    kind of power is it possible for this world group of people to 
    generate?
    
    Initially, mass awareness is beginning to take shape on an 
    individual level. It needs to awaken people to their mutual 
    brotherhood above and beyond regional, religious, ethnic, or 
    cultural group differences. The largest and therefore most 
    potentially effective group is the world group. If there are 
    approximately 4 billion {circa 1984} people on Planet Earth, 
    then it would take a unified group of only about sixty-four 
    thousand to effectively shift the mode of the planet in favor 
    of that group's energy (64,000 times 64,000 = 4,096,000,000). 
    In the united States where there are approximately 225 million 
    people, fifteen thousand persons with a unified vision would 
    have equivalent power.
    
    It is also possible to affect the necessary planetary changes 
    through combining smaller but already aligned groups. The key is 
    man considering himself in the broader context of a planetary 
    being and working toward this end rather than seeing himself as 
    only one insignificant part of a fragmented world.
    
    The world as a group can remain a poorly integrated and 
    ineffective body or it can become a viable unified group. The 
    world group has options. It possesses the power to manifest mammoth 
    planetary devastation, destroying much of Earth's life in its 
    wake. The world group also holds the power to creatively manifest 
    a different reality, a reality of spiritual awareness, each according 
    to his own vision. So, which will it be?
         .
         .
         .
    While the seeds of the new awareness or consciousness shift are 
    sprouting and starting to grow in every part of the world, 
    nevertheless the predominant thrust of man is still toward 
    aggressive, warlike behavior. This predisposition toward the 
    aggressive depletes and debilitates the body of the Earth just as surely 
    as if there were leeches sucking her blood. The physical and 
    etheric planet cannot withstand this constant bloodletting without 
    declining into a deeper and deeper depression. The neutralizing of 
    this depression, the dispelling of this terrible pain, can result 
    in gigantic physical changes involving every aspect of the 
    physical Earth.
         .        
         .                                              
    the cosmic forces will not prevent physical calamity from touching 
    Earth if it is brought about by the unwillingness of Earth's 
    people's to choose an aligned path with the creative forces of the 
    universe. It is up to Earth to choose. The creation of a 
    spiritually attuned world can happen with or without the physical 
    changes which are forming in response to human indifference and 
    negativity. If man is to turn the tide away from physical 
    destruction of his planet, then the world group of which I speak 
    has grave responsibilities. It must learn of its power as a group. 
    It must learn to be a wise governing body. It must learn to 
    equally orchestrate for the benefit of all. It must, in fact, 
    learn to use its own version of personal power. It must find and 
    use its group power and its group connection to the universe.
                  
    This world power is built from individual power just as universal 
    power is built from world power. All group power systems blend to 
    create a working, functioning body of total energy. the sooner the 
    individual becomes aware of his responsibility to himself and his 
    world group, the sooner the wars and aggression-oriented thinking 
    will stop. What is currently neutrality will turn to all-out panic 
    if the complacency and unaligned energies of the planet are not 
    dealt with before it is too late.
                  
    Personal power is the issue at the very heart of the disaster 
    crisis. For without personal power, the individual will remain 
    frozen and inactive too long, and all will gradually slide beyond 
    recognition into depression. With personal power, the individual 
    and world group will slow the insidious moral and physical decline 
    by inviting planetary awareness into their lives and openly living 
    a broader view of their spiritual beliefs. Those of Planet Earth 
    must become cognizant of the God-given right and responsibility to 
    challenge the course of human evolution, making course corrections 
    to change the destiny of man.                                     
    

    
    Around the harmonic convergence, Arguela was talking about a Mayan
    prophesy of 144,000 Sun Dance Warriors who would be awakened at
    that time.
    
    Perry (aka Tananda)
    

    The 144,000 gig is a holdover from Revelations.
    
    It's 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. Sorry, ain't no such critters
    around nowadays. 144,000 pure, virgin, Christian Jews etc.
    
    This is a great example of how some supposedly liberated people (from
    the CBS) still carry around part of the baggage of that worldview. 

    
    What do you feel about the "chosen"?  Are they incarnate beings
    who are near the end of their journey, or will they be of the current
    life time (between now and then)?
    
    How can we distinguish them?
    
    You would think that 144,000 chosen would have been chosen by now,
    if we were speaking in reincarnational terms.....wouldn't you?
    
    Cheryl
    	
    

    
    
          I thought there were 144,000 people working for Digital...
    
    
          -Arthur ;-)

    re: -.8
      
          Arthur, do you think all of them are "evolved enough" to
    "save the world"?
    
    
    Frederick
    :-)
    

    Cheryl (.7),
    
    I was told that of the 'enlightened souls' incarnate at this time,
    only 10% knew who they were and it was their job to recognize and
    tell others (who they would 'recognize') who in turn would tell
    others till all were known.  
    
    Ah, distinquishing them -- how do you tell the good guys from the
    bad guys?!  As a friend and I recently discovered 'enlightened talk,
    does not an enlightened person make'.
    
    We'll see, I guess...
    
    Ro
    

    
    	   Looking at my ticket, I see that I am 136,438.  I guess
    	that makes me an 'enlightened soul'.  
    
    	   I'm afraid I'm going to have to start charging you people
    	for my responses henceforth.  This shall be the last of the
    	free replies.
    
    	- Greg
    

Re .5 (Mikie?)
            
    >    This is a great example of how some supposedly liberated people
    >    (from the CBS) still carry around part of the baggage of that
    >     worldview. 
    
    Ah, Mikie, you are quick to dismiss the whole thing as superstition,
    merely because the bearers of the tale are superstitious. Take care!
    Sometimes, you discover that what you are being told makes better sense
    once you fix the context -- for the context is not necessarily what it
    seems to the "unenlightened".  Consider this -- 
    
    The significance of the number 144,000 is discussed over several pages
    of THE MYTH OF INVARIANCE: THE ORIGIN OF THE GODS, MATHEMATICS AND
    MUSIC FROM THE RG VEDA TO PLATO. I quote from page 110-111: 
    
    "The original Greek text of Revelation makes clear that the choir of
    144,000 redeemed from the earth at the first resurrection to 'sing a
    new song before the throne' are male celibates who 'have not defiled
    themselves with women' (Rev. 14:4).  The number 144,000 is mentioned
    three times in Revelation ["What I tell you three times is true" - PAH]
    and that this number has a musical meaning is emphasized by the
    author's reference to the 'new song': 'No one could learn that song
    except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from
    the earth' (14:3).  I assume that the restriction to 'male virgins'
    points to an awareness that Vedic-Platonic mathematical harmonics can
    be reduced to the study of how odd, hence male, numbers behave in the
    octave matrix...Since the only prime factors of 144,000 are 2, 3 and 5,
    we can study any song such male celebates could sing by constructing a
    yantra [a tonal matrix - PAH] for the male numbers (3**p)(5**q)<144,000
    and noting its tonal possibilities." 
                                                   
    [There is a picture of this yantra in the book.  DECwindows!  We need
    DECwindows, dammit! - PAH] 
    
    "...the yantra for the numbers (3**p)(5**q)<144,000 has twenty-four
    elements in its perimeter to correlate with 'twenty-four elders, clad
    in white garmets' seated 'around the throne' (4:4), 'each holding a
    harp' and singing the 'new song' (8:2).  The horizontal axis contains
    seven tones in 'Pythagorean tuning' -- C G D A E B F# -- to correlate
    with 'seven angels with trumpets' (8:2)." 
    
    "If Christian angels correspond with Vedic gods and Platonic 'citizens
    of the highest class', then the replacement of F by F# -- programmed by
    the use of 144,000 as terminating number -- is our clue to the 'new
    song'...The 'new song' can be interpreted as a transposition of the
    basic seven-tone Vedic-Pythagorean set (F C G D A E B) or a modulation
    (change of mode) or both, according to ones' preferred point of
    view...." 
    
    [There follows a few more paragraphs of discussion on the sets of
    consecutive musical fifths involved; I have omitted this, and append a
    subsequent paragraph emphasizing the nature of what is actually under
    discussion in these passages. - PAH] 
    
    "This is the Greek PHRYGIAN mode, renamed DORIAN by a Christian
    supposedly confused by the Greek names.  Whatever his reason, he
    assigned the prestigious Dorian label to the only internally symmetric
    scale so that Christianity's modus primus inherited both the standard
    Vedic numbers and the best Greece could offer.  It is more than merely
    amusing that 432 AD is the legendary beginning fof St. Patick's
    Christian mission in Ireland; Irish monks were among the first
    propagators of the Gregorian chant and would have known these numbers
    well."  [The tone-number of 'A' in the scale under discussion is 432. -
    PAH] 
    
    Pat
    

Re: .9 Frederick
      
>          Arthur, do you think all of them are "evolved enough" to
>    "save the world"?
    
Now, now Frederick, try to be more positive. ;-)

John D.

    reply to .12, Pat,
    
    So what does all that mean??
    
    My best guess is the the writer of Revelations, an known Jewish
    Christian misognist (sp?) with biases against Gentile Christians, had
    some Pathogeran training. 
                   
    Please excuse me while I say "So what." Besides where is anyone gonna
    find 144,000 Jewish virgins?? NOT IN THIS TOWN! B^) 

re: .3

That is the Hopi prophecy, 144,000 Rainbow something-or-others...

I just finished a good book by Joeseph Cambell, _The Inner Reached of Outer
Space_.  In it he talks about the significance of the number 9 and the
common occurance of the number 432 (4+3+2=9).  Numerologically, 144,000
also is 9 (1+4+4=9).  Anybody know the numerological meaning of 9???

Terry

Enlightenment means to "lighten up" about  the condition of
the universe.  It is the smile of the Buddha, the Way of the Tao
and the brush stroke of Lao-Tse.  Contemporary Enlightened
Masters are extremely human and unassuming.  I'd consider
Joseph Campbell to have been one of these humans.

Richard Bach speaks of humanity being a spiritual goal, not
something we are given, rather something we earn.  We earn 
our humanity by working on ourselves, by living out our potential
instead of leaving our potential intact.  A human is a warrior
for aliveness.

Enlightened humans are noted by their willingness to work and
"get on with it".  Get on with the business of life.  The business
is one of engagement with life where one works to dis-identify
with one's piece and position  and forgive others their identification
with their pieces.

Enlightenment is not a goal.  It is the timeless nature of being.
One cannot become enlightened if one is not already enlightened.
Enlightenment, by itself is useless and can only be shared.  Sharing
the recognition of who one is empowers the unconscious part of
the Universe to become responsible for it's creation..

A responsible being is empowered to un-create the un-workability
in the being's universe and recreate the context of aliveness.

144,000 BAH!  Nobody get's off until everbody gets off..

Larry

    Re: 16
    
    I don't think anyone said the '144,000 would get off leaving
    the rest to suffer'.  Their whole purpose, it seems to me, is
    to 'enlighten' the rest of the souls so they all could find
    their way 'home'.
    
    Ro
    

     
    I wanna go Home.
    I wanna go Home.
    Oh how I wanna go Home.
    
    (;^)
    
    Letmeseenow...we are looking for 144,000 Jewish virgins who can
    hold a tune whilst singing in a cave with lights on their heads 
    somewhere in Nepal.  Or Bhutan.  Or maybe they are sailing somewhere?
    Ah ha - they're taking a cruise to India at this very moment!
    
    This is very confusing.
    
    Cindy

    .18
    
    I know Cindy, it must be visions of my upcoming vacation that
    have me using 'ship' metaphors in my replies  ;-)
    
    Ro
    

    Re .14 (Mikie)                                 
    
    Sigh.  The point I'm trying to make --  perhaps not very well -- is
    that these passages don't have anything to do with Jewish virgins.  The
    original author was using a specialized jargon.  ("Celibate" refers to
    the fact that the tones in the set have no even components, "even"
    being regarded as female -- hence "have not known women".  The fact
    that a misreading of this jargon suited people who condemned sex, and
    thereby ensured its inclusion in the New Testament, is a separate issue
    altogether.  And there is easily the possibility that the story was
    further tampered with for political purposes.) 
    
    Mikie, when little children hear news reports about Wall Street, they
    probably do think that there are bulls and bears wandering around the
    curb terrorizing the brokers. When a superstitious person or a child
    overhears an exposition on metaphysics -- or worse yet, translates it!
    -- there is no telling what you are going to end up with.  Amazing and
    terrible things happen.
    
    I think that it is interesting that numbers like this crop in all sorts
    of mystical legends.  McClain says that this is because very early
    civilizations created a kind of proto-Pythagorean philosophy based on
    the numerical measure of time and sound.  The only remnants of this
    philosophy (aside, of course, from modern number theory and physics)
    are these "magic numbers", whose properties were thought to reflect
    fundamental principles of the cosmos. 
    
    (McClain is not the only one to find garbled bits of technical data in
    Revelations.  The archeologist Gerald Massey claims that the "beasts"
    of Revelations and their activities are actually a retelling of
    ancient astronomical observations regarding constellations and the
    precession.) 
    
    That such numbers should be found both in Revelations and among the
    Hopi shows the universality and antiquity of the ideas.  These ideas
    were carried into both Greece and over the land-bridge to the New
    World, probably by the bards and shamans -- who knew the true meaning
    of the fanciful allegories they told their companions around the fire.
    Just 'cuz some people don't have a clue, doesn't mean you hafta be one
    of them! 
    
    Pat
    

    The chosen will be those that run the governments of the world and
    the prime time religious preachers.  If they all go then we will
    have peace on earth.
    

    Frederick,
    
    Just think what 144,000 DECoids could do with the correct diet,
    correct hairstyle, correct reality creation, correct political
    views, correct sexual practice, correct fashion taste, and
    correct metaphysical beliefs...
    
    We would be so evolved and saved up to our armpits with correctness
    that we could "Rule the world"... 
    
    Let's start a cult and rewrite the prophecies... :-)
    
    -Arthur
                    

    
    Regarding - "VIRGINS"
                                   
    Yes, I knew your ears (eyes??) would perk.....
                                   
    I know this isn't this cut and dry, but:
    
    If reincarnation is meant to work off bad karma (pardon me, while
    I try to get thru this with the basic buzz words), then at the end
    of one's journey, one's soul would then be considered "clean" (??)
    or virginal.
                
    Sort of backwards to the beginning.
    
    And regarding a Religious order......what else could be mentioned
    in the Bible besides Jews, Christians and atheist which now, as
    I ponder.....makes me want to define a Jewish Virgin as:
    
    Pure as Christ
    
    
    waddayathink?
    Cheryl
    
    
    

What's a "correct political view"?  There are so many.

>very early
>civilizations created a kind of proto-Pythagorean philosophy based on
>the numerical measure of time and sound.  The only remnants of this
>philosophy (aside, of course, from modern number theory and physics)
>are these "magic numbers", whose properties were thought to reflect
>fundamental principles of the cosmos. 

Can we rebuild it?  My gut feeling tells me yes!  I hate it when that 
happens...when the symbology is all that remains and the idea behind it is 
forgotten!  Other things have been rebuilt - at least we still have the 
symbols!  What I notice about 144,000 is...it adds up to 9.  I notice 
increasing..."tension", for want of a better word...between 3, 6, 9.  Those 
HAVE to figure in here, someplace.

                                
    Re.24 (Daniel)
    
    Meredith,
    
    >What's a "correct political view"?
    
    Well, OBVIOUSLY it is something that Lyndon Larouche agrees with.
    
    I loved reading that Dave Barry believes in place of Lyndon's brain
    there is a Wack-A-Mole game.
    
    Now back to the topic at hand.
    
    Cindy

RE: .24
    
    What strikes me about the number 144,000 is that it contains a mixture
    of "round numbers" in both the Babylonian base 12 system (specifically
    a dozen dozen or a gross) and the Hebrew/Greek/Roman base 10 system
    (specifically ten tens-of-ten).  Its like someone started with a
    "round number" derived from e.g., the Babylonian captivity, but needed
    a bigger number (this might not be a conscious process, of course,
    the subconscious does exactly this kind of thing) and so scaled it
    up the "natural way" for someone using a decimal number system, i.e.,
    by multiplying it by ten a few times.
    
    						Topher

    Reply to...
================================================================================
Note 978.20                          144,000                            20 of 26
RAINBO::HARDY                                        43 lines   8-FEB-1989 12:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
  >  Sigh.  The point I'm trying to make --  perhaps not very well -- is
  >  that these passages don't have anything to do with Jewish virgins.  The
  >  original author was using a specialized jargon.  ("Celibate" refers to
  >  the fact that the tones in the set have no even components, "even"
  >  being regarded as female -- hence "have not known women".  The fact
  >  that a misreading of this jargon suited people who condemned sex, and
  >  thereby ensured its inclusion in the New Testament, is a separate issue
  >  altogether.  And there is easily the possibility that the story was
  >  further tampered with for political purposes.) 
   
    Oh I think you made it well enough. I was just being obtuse. My problem
    is that I have been programmed to interpret the passage in a certain
    way thus the musical coding seems unuseful, unnecessary and out of
    place. In fact it fairly steams with something akin to kabalism. But
    there was great energy placed in determining the numerlogical values
    for every little thing. Who many angles can dance on the head of a
    pin?? (Is my Western mind may be showing through. B^) 
    
    It seems to me that to transmitt a message to a listening audience one
    should make their point a clear as possible (especially if one expects
    their writing to be cross cultural). Or if they are using metaphor they
    should let the audience know that such modes are being used before
    hand. 
    
    Sadly John may have been only writing to other esotericlly trained
    Jewish Christians in the world, perhaps after Jerusalem was destroyed,
    who understood his coding. 
    
    Additionally this completely blows out of the water any infalability
    notions for Revelations which also contains the strongest prohibitions
    against changing the document. Were such notions true it would make God
    out to be a bigot for dealing only with _certain_ esotericlly trained
    Christian Jews. This is why my programming considers such a coding
    interpretation as "missing the mark." B^) But who knows... Your
    musical theory is still interesting.
                                                               
   > Mikie, when little children hear news reports about Wall Street, they
   > probably do think that there are bulls and bears wandering around the
   > curb terrorizing the brokers. When a superstitious person or a child
   > overhears an exposition on metaphysics -- or worse yet, translates it!
   > -- there is no telling what you are going to end up with.  Amazing and
   > terrible things happen.
    
    ...and I'm still wondering why the city fathers let those wild animals
    run loose. Next thing will be insider trading in the zoo run by Japanese
    and Saudi zoo keepers.
    
   > (McClain is not the only one to find garbled bits of technical data in
   > Revelations.  The archeologist Gerald Massey claims that the "beasts"
   > of Revelations and their activities are actually a retelling of
   > ancient astronomical observations regarding constellations and the
   > precession.) 
    
    Ok so far. Who knows what was floating around in the mind of John?
    Maybe John was tripping on shrooms...
    
   > That such numbers should be found both in Revelations and among the
   > Hopi shows the universality and antiquity of the ideas.  These ideas
   > were carried into both Greece and over the land-bridge to the New
   > World, probably by the bards and shamans -- who knew the true meaning
   > of the fanciful allegories they told their companions around the fire.
   > Just 'cuz some people don't have a clue, doesn't mean you hafta be one
   > of them! 
    
    I haven't seen any proof that the Hopis used the number 144,000. I have
    seen Jose' Aguallio (good ole' what's his name) use this number. It's
    entriely possible he used the Christian term for more effect. And
    if so... more baggage is generated.
    
    Anyone wanna' type in the Hopi passage of the 144,000 with a complete
    translation of it?? 
                                       
                                                             

    >.20
    
    < Jewish Christians in the world--------
    
         Some friends of main are Jewish and they would get a laugh
    out of that statement.  How can you be Jewis & Christian.
    Jews do not accept Christ the way Christians do so they can't be
    christians.  Christians believe Christ is the son on God so they
    can't be Jewish.

>< Note 978.28 by DPDMAI::SWENSON >

Someone once said that I couldn't believe in God because I didn't accept the 
concept of Satan (we were discussing Jewish beliefs at the time).

The fundamental principals of Judaism do not rest upon whether one accepts 
Jesus as the Christ.  Fundamental Christian religions are different from 
Judaism in more ways than the acceptance of Jesus as the Christ.

    ><.29
     I agree with you totaly that there is more to it then just what
    I said in .28 but it is one.
    
    I am like you in the since of believing in God but not Satan.  I
    Believe in God but I think the devil is of our own making and if
    there is one, we give him a lot more credit then he is do.  Isn't
    it funny that some people blame everything that goes wrong on the
    devil.  It's like they do not want to face up to their faults or
    that some people are just bad a--es.  From what I see, the devil
    could take a holiday and we would still distroy each other.f

    re: .29 & .30
    
    	   Satan's power over you will lie in the fact that you
    	do not believe in him.  His power is all around us as
    	surely as is God's.  At times, they can seem to be the
    	same thing.  What is perceived as God's work can indeed
    	be only man's work... man, being influenced by both forces,
    	can weave the two into one, blurring the lines and obscuring
    	the distinctions.
    
    	   Would anyone really be surprised to hear me say that 
    	Satan's greatest seat of power is the Church (and I'm not
    	referring to Satanic churches, either)?  Perhaps now you 
    	understand why I have disassociated myself from organized
    	religion.
    
    	   Evil exists.  Pretending it does not will not make it
    	go away.
    
    	- Greg

    Reply to .31, Greg,
    
    I wouldn't go so far as to ascribe evil to anything. However there are
    things and organizations that want to consume, with or without your
    permission and at whatever rate, your life energy, green or otherwise. 
    
    You may consider this evil because it doesn't serve you well. I will
    say that organized religious systems tend to benefit a minority at the
    expense of the gullible. Such are political religious systems that
    move heaven to some distant location and conviently place a level
    of humans inbetween the mass populace and the deemed reward: heaven.
                                                                        
    And as the Laws of Nature say, the dim seldom propagate their genes
    if they allow their life energy to be vampirized.

    re: .32 (Mike)
    
    	   Since the twilight of the Dark Ages, Heaven has become little
    	more than a flashy picture on an enticing pamphlet, used to draw
    	the gullible into the church.  It's a bit like Hawaii viewd from
    	the eyes of a homeless and impoverished bag lady in New York.  It
    	does her little good to know that Hawaii exists.  As far as she's
    	concerned, it doesn't matter if it's real or not... she can't get
    	there.
    
    	   Then along comes this con man with pamphlets and brochures.
    	He knows how SHE can get there.  All she has to do is follow his
    	every instruction, and by golly he'll put her on the next plane 
    	out.  The pictures he shows her are of beautiful beaches, lucious
    	luaus, and fun-loving natives.  They are pictures that were 
    	actually taken in Hawaii.  He might even be an unwitting accomplace
    	to the hoax.  Maybe he's not even aware that he's swindling her.
    
    	   That's where I think religion is today, and why so many people
    	are confused about what the REAL message of Christianity is, and
    	what is the real significance of these recurring themes (144,000, for
    	example).  The faithful blindly follow their religious leaders,
    	almost completely sublimating their own conscience in favor of
    	the group conscience spoon-fed to them by the church.
    
    	   We are too far from the source to know precisely what was said
    	in Biblical times.  We rely on written texts which have been
    	translated, altered, and edited to the point where the original
    	meaning is lost in many places.  These subtle changes can and have
    	had a significant impact, not only in the meaning of the text, but
    	in its impact on society.  
    
    	- Greg

    
         I read something very interesting in _Memories, Dreams and
    Reflections_ by C.G.Jung that I think is extremely relevant.  Jung
    was brought up, I believe, as a Catholic.  His father was a member
    of the clergy who became very disenchanted with the relgion.  At
    one point in Jung's childhood an inner crisis arose.  He found him-
    self thinking a horrible thought, so horrible that he did not dare
    complete the thought (I don't know how he managed this).  It would
    have been the ultimate blasphemy.  He held off this imperfect thought
    for around two days, but at last exhausted he realized that he would
    not be able to do this forever and must do some rationalization.
    He began working on the idea of sin, so he would be able to deal
    with the sin he was about to commit.  He thought back to Genesis,
    and reasoned that since God had created the serpent and Adam and
    Eve that God knew what was going to happen.  God knew the weaknesses
    of man and he set up the Temptation as more or less an experiment,
    knowing that man would fail.  Therefore he concluded that it was
    God's will that man should sin and that it was by sin that man would
    come to know the grace of God.  Jung then allowed himself to think
    the unclean thought pressing in on his mind.  It was a vision of
    God, sitting high above the local cathedral in his throne of gold.
    From beneath the throne fell a huge object that smashed the cathedral.
    God's feces.  As soon as he had fully experienced this vision he
    did feel the grace of God and felt an amazing relief.  I see this
    as another example of the sometimes terrible nature of God.  Another
    example might be in Exodus 32:27 in Jehovah's command "Put every
    man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate
    throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man
    his companion, and every man his neighbor."  Jehovah has more
    characteristics than only virtue.  In Jung's _Septem Sermones ad
    Mortuos_ (or something close to that) he states his ideas on the
    relationship of God and Satan, among other things.  God and the
    Devil are equal opposites.  Above them Jung places an entity or
    concept called Abraxas, which is everything.  Oh well, enough
    ramblings.  This was not intended to offend anyone of any particular
    belief.  By the way, this was not an advocation of sin.  But people
    must make their choices as they must.  I would stress balance.
    
    Guy
    
    
    

RE: Last one (Guy)

    > He found himself thinking a horrible thought, so horrible that he 
      did not dare complete the thought (I don't know how he managed this).  

    I don't know either.  To know the thought was coming meant he had
    to think it.  A thought, is a thought, is a thought...
    Can anybody explain what Jung might have meant.  I'm curoius...
    How can one keep from thinking a particular thought without having
    thought it in the first place.  This is confusing #$!!$#!$%$#^%$!@

    Terry 

    
    I guess Sartre would have denied Jung's existance.
    
    :-)
    Guy
    

    
    RE.31 (Greg)
    
    I would have to agree with Greg that Satan's power over you will
    lie in the fact that you do not believe in it (neuter pronoun prefered
    here).
    
    This may seem like a strange statement, given that I believe that
    Heaven and Hell are places on Earth - in fact they lie in the state
    of mind of every person.
    
    I think what changed my mind...or perhaps clarified it...was when
    I read "People Of The Lie - The Hope For Healing Human Evil" by Peck.  
    He started out a skeptical scientific type and decided that if he was 
    going to attempt to write a book on evil, then he wanted to see
    firsthand if it existed as a separate power (or something like this).
    He participated in 2 exorcisms and writes about them in the book.
    This is only a small part of the book though, and the rest is about
    some of his cases and then group evil (Mylai Massacre and a little
    of the Holocaust).  I'd highly recommend it.  The most incredible
    statement from the book is that "When a normal, rational person
    encounters evil, it is as if that person loses their ability to
    think."  Evil is not often blatant.  It is incredibly subtle.  The
    other sentence from the book that amazed me is "About the most
    difficult thing a person can come to terms with is naming evil in 
    one's own parentage."  Think of how many children suffer at the
    hands of evil but perceive the evil within themselves because they
    view their parents as gods who, by definition, cannot be evil. 
    It is sheer crazymaking.
    
    Cindy
                                    

    Re. Not completing a thought...
    
    Several years ago I had cancer and had to go through an extremely
    harrowing period of Chemo-therapy. The treatment was so awful, both
    physically and mentally that I could not bring myself to recall
    any of the details for months afterward. Many times I would catch
    myself beginning to think about details of the experience and I
    would Stop The Thought and deliberately switch to thinking about
    something pleasant instead. So, yes, it is possible - especially
    when the cost of thinking that thought is high enough...
    
    Brian

    Reply to...
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Note 978.37                          144,000                            37 of 38
CLUE::PAINTER "Wage Peace"                           32 lines  13-FEB-1989 21:17
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  >  I would have to agree with Greg that Satan's power over you will
  >  lie in the fact that you do not believe in it (neuter pronoun prefered
  >  here).
    
  >  This may seem like a strange statement, given that I believe that
  >  Heaven and Hell are places on Earth - in fact they lie in the state
  >  of mind of every person.
   
    I disagree entirely, perhaps even strongly. But you knew I would.
    B^)
    
    First you have to define Satan. In this you will have massive problems.
    And if you define Satan as something evil you have to also define parts
    of all deties as evil. Although there is only one Unity, it has many
    parts. And in defining part/s of the Unity as Evil you also define
    yourself, or parts of yourself, as evil.
    
    This is normal for contemporary Christianity but I refuse to schism
    my being to accomidate a thought or word. Actually the defining
    of part of oneself as evil is a trap of dualism. Black and white
    thinking leads to other fuzzy thinking which leads to...
    
    Wicca teaches me to intergrate all opposites into a whole. Good
    and evil are just words that describe some condition in relation
    to human activity or condition.
    
    If a hydra eats and destroys an ameoba that is not evil. That is life.
    If a lynx eats and destroys a rabbit that is not evil. It is life. Life
    eats life. Should you eat part of a cow or carrot you are not evil
    you are alive.
    
    The strength of dualism is that it forces an integration of easily
    defined opposites into a whole. But if an individual continues to focus
    on the duality instead of the process of integration schism occurs.
    This serves no one well. 
    
    Satan and God are within. Defining Satan as evil helps us avoid the
    problem of intergrating both into a happy, healthy whole. Worshiping or
    emulating one at the expense of the other causes massive problems.
    Focus on one and the other will eventually byte us on the ass. Both
    can cause us to kill either ourselves or others to achieve some
    benefit. A thinking process that causes us to view part of ourselves
    as evil eventually makes us unhealthy.
                                          
    This is why I looked at the Satan/Jehovah diacotomy and trashed
    the whole thing. I want to be happy, health and whole. I recognize
    my own deity and nurture it instead of killing it.
    
    Beware the traps of Dualism.
    
    

    Re.39
    
    Hi Mikie,
    
    I would have been very disappointed if you hadn't disagreed.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Re .40,
    
    Thanks Cindy, you're a real pal.

Hi,

    A friend claims that the 144,000 slots are all used up, so we may as well
go to Las Vegas and party.  He says it seems at least that many have banged on 
his door holding a Bible claiming salvation. :^)
He also commented 144,000 is numerologically a nine which has a meaning
of 'humanity'.  re: 15 the 3 and 6 with the 9 are known as the magic triad.

-Tim