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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

833.0. "Genuine-ness of a Medium" by SHRBIZ::WAINE (Linda) Wed Aug 17 1988 21:46

    
    Regarding the genuine-ness of a medium:
    
    I have a question for people knowledgeable in Lazaris (Frederick,
    et al.), Ramtha, etc...
    
    What sort of proof-and-evidence, scientific, personal, or otherwise
    has been demonstrated by the "alleged" mediums of their genuine-ness 
    that they indeed are "channeling" entities from the "other-side" (or 
    whatever you want to call it...)?  Could it be that these people 
    are just very knowledgeable in Theology, Philosophy, Theosophy,
    etc. and are good actors?
    
    (I use the word, "alleged", for argument-sake.... )
    
    I know that there has been a lot of flack regarding the genuine-ness
    of J.Z. Knight (Ramtha), and from what I've seen of her, I think
    that initially that she was in contact with a being that had passed-on,
    but a being that was definitely not very advanced (most likely an
    earthbound with feelings of grandeur), and I really feel that it's a
    lot of show, now.
    
    Linda
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833.1take a deep breath...then talkreallyfast!WRO8A::WARDFRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerThu Aug 18 1988 15:49107
    RE: .0
      
        This was discussed at least to some extent in a couple of other
    notes, notably 288.  (Maybe this should be moved there.)  Anyway,
    I would tend to agree with what you say in regards to Ramtha.  Ramtha's
    energy has seemed to shift in the last couple of years.  But as
    I have pointed out before, there are many "levels" of being.  The
    proof of this is only in how we interpret the data that we hear
    (at least for those of us who are physical.)  
         Let me clarify or remind you what Lazaris has stated before
    in terms of "levels".  There are infinite levels of existence...
    all the way to God/Goddess/All-That-Is.  God/Goddess/All-That-Is
    will never fully know itself...it is dynamic and constantly growing
    (expanding and contracting.)  If not, there would never be any room
    for our own growth, since we are a part of God/Goddess/All-That-Is.
    The physical level actually consists of four "planes".  The "highest"
    plane is called the mental...this is the level where everything
    is IMPOSSIBLE.  It is the level that "Christ-consciousness" refers
    to as heaven.  It is extremely blissful, apparently.  The next rung
    "down" is called the causal plane...this is where all causes and
    effects are.  It is everything that is POSSIBLE.  It is a plane
    with no horizons.  The "third" plane "down" is called the Astral.
    It is the level at which all thought is PROBABLE.  Most of us are
    very familiar with this plane since most of our dreaming occurs
    there.  Then we get to the physical plane...the densest available
    in this reality.  It, as we can see, is where reality is ACTUAL.
         This digression is to remind us that beings exist on all levels.
    That is, we all exist on all levels, but we have no conscious seat
    of power on other levels (no person I know, anyway.)  Beings, via
    "growth", expand from one level to another.  There are certain
    "criteria" for doing so...I will avoid that for now.  Many on the
    astral plane are not highly evolved.  Most are considered to be
    "lower astral".  This should not be surprising, since many humans
    could be similarly labeled (as "lowly evolved humans" perhaps.)
    I believe Ramtha falls into an astral category...I do not know
    where.  Part of my reason has to do with the "Warrior" image which
    Ramtha is so proud of.  Another has to do with the way Ramtha
    takes our responsibility away from us (by sending or promising
    to send us "runners" or help, etc.)  Doing it for us (as most
    religions want to have us supplicate to a God in a similar fashion)
    is not conducive to growth.  That is abnegating our responsibility.
    The greatest freedom comes with total responsibility.  Turning
    responsibility over to anything or anyone else is anathema to
    growth.  Point made.
         How do we prove Lazaris exists?  All we can note is that Jach
    closes his eyes and a different voice and different facial expressions
    come forth.  Is this an act?  It would perhaps be the greatest acting
    of all time by the most wise and intelligent human who has ever
    lived.  Believe me, though Jach is intelligent, he is not *that*
    intelligent.  Jach got a bachelor's degree in political science
    from Michigan University (I believe) and went to work selling
    insurance or at least working in the insurance industry.  He
    was 27 years old when Lazaris first came through and had (according
    to all accounts) never dabbled in metaphysics (that was in the
    ancient age of 1974, after all.)  What is interesting, for counter-
    argument sake, is that the energy we call Lazaris has not changed
    in 14 years.  The same insight and wisdom is there.  Moreover
    I understand that "scientific" testing (using voice prints) has
    shown a different voice than Jach's.  This is almost impossible
    even for master voice impersonators.  My own proof (and virtually
    everyone I know has had difficulty accepting what Lazaris is
    supposed to be, at first) comes at the heels of six years of 
    being exposed to him on tapes, in person and at workshops.  I
    have enough proof for myself to acknowledge him as the greatest
    teacher I have ever had.  I have experienced a part of his love,
    which is quite overpowering, especially when we experience him
    in person whether on the phone or in a blending or during a
    brief meeting with him via the channel (which is no stronger,
    but our beliefs make it seem so.)  I have experienced him talking
    for over 12 hours per day for five days straight, never losing
    his "place" and never stumbling (long, "thinking" pauses, e.g.)
    and always disseminating all the information that was to be
    presented without "messing it up" or referring to notes, helpers,
    etc.  And the depth of information is staggering.  I know many
    MENSAns (a club consisting of high IQ people) who attend Lazaris
    workshops who are similarly staggered by the wealth of information,
    both in quantity and quality.  Also, for those who allow themselves,
    the meditations are frequently the most (or nearly most) emotional
    experiences that they have ever felt. Like I say, the depth of love
    is remarkable.
         So, as I have indicated before, I will not vouch for all
    channels.  I have listened to others and have not been overly
    impressed.  Similarly, you might listen to Lazaris and come away
    with that same, weak impact.  I present his rationale and explanations
    here very often because it makes damn good sense to me and I wish
    to share it.  Everyone still has the choice of believing whatever
    they choose, however.  From where I sit, if we all practiced what
    Lazaris teaches, we would experience an abundance and wealth of
    life like none of us has really believed to be probable.  Which
    brings me to a slight digression.  Note that the causal plane is
    everything that is possible...this is why Lazaris frequently takes
    us there in our meditations; so that we can bring "back" to this
    reality anything that we ask for from the causal plane.  It is a
    bit more involved than this, but that's the "principle."  Also,
    what exists beyond the mental plane?  Nothing.  If it did, we'd
    be able to know about it.  Lazaris comes from none of these four
    levels, according to him.  He is "beyond" the physical realm.
    Wait a second, something sounds "wrong" here, right?  True.  So
    we can put it another way.  Whatever exists beyond the mental plane
    is beyond any understanding that we presently have.  Suffice to
    leave it at that.
         Perhaps this has answered some of your questions.  Perhaps
    not.  In either case, it's all I have time for at the moment.
    Until later,
    
    Frederick
    
833.2Re: .1SHRBIZ::WAINELindaThu Aug 18 1988 16:5025
    Re: .1
    
    Frederick,
    
    	Has Jach ever had any physical phenomena occur in addition to
    the voice change such as ectoplasm, apports, etc under scientific
    conditions?  Has Jach ever undergone blood-chemistry tests while in 
    trance?  Has Jach ever given anyone personal evidence/readings,
    bringing forth specific information unique to an individual in which 
    he had no access to the knowledge before-hand?  Had he undergone any 
    other tests, besides the voice tests?
    
    	I agree with you that the voice test and the length of the
    sessions can be indicative of genuine mediumship, but I think that
    this is only a beginning....
    
    Thanks,

    Linda
    
    P.S. I think that this should be kept a different note as that it
    pertains to "how can you tell if a medium (in general) is genuine or 
    not" as opposed to a specific medium.  I used Lazaris and Ramtha as 
    examples, since they are currently most popular in the "channeling"
    circles.
833.3Can we get a vat of chocolate over here?WRO8A::WARDFRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerThu Aug 18 1988 17:5773
    re: -.1
     
        Linda, some of your questions have already been answered.
    Please read 288 for more information.  What is interesting is
    that "scientific proof" is always sought while looking for
    the "unexplainable".  Consider that an aside to which I do not
    want a response.  :-)  Again, I speak mostly from my awareness
    of Lazaris, not Arthur Ford, or Seth or Ramtha or many others
    past or present.  Lazaris is not "in Jach's body".  Period.
    ! Exclamation point.  Again, there are about 40 pages devoted
    to similar or related questions in Lazaris Interviews II.  Also,
    there is a tape and reprint from the tape available called 
    Lazaris Explains Lazaris, should you wish to hear him directly
    quoted.  Jach is much like a tv set.  Lazaris sits at the "studio".
    Energy is transmuted (and "down-stepped" according to Lazaris)
    "over-the-airways" to Jach's "receiver".  It is Jach's "tuner"
    which receives and transforms the energy to whatever it is that
    we in turn transform and interpret individually.  It remains
    Jach's body, with what I might consider "residuals" of Jach's
    consciousness in charge.  Lazaris (with Jach's permission)
    utilizes Jach's physical controls to manipulate them for the
    purpose of communication.  I have never seen Lazaris stand up.
    He could, but he chooses not to.  (Answers in the book.)
        As for phenomena, there have been certain ones reported.  Once
    Jach went to visit a friend (with a serious illness) in the hospital 
    and went into trance to get Lazaris' help.  Lazaris laid the channel's 
    hands on the person and the body proceeded to get levitated about
    one foot off the bed.  Needless to say, it scared the sh*t out of
    the person (and cured them in the process!)  Lazaris has said that
    he has had to make certain "adjustments" to the communication with the
    channel over time...(the hospital story was one such.)  Again, he is
    not here to "DO" our reality for us.  He shys away from overt displays
    of "supernatural power" because we humans tend to get all caught
    up in that rather than the message (just witness the majority of
    the notes in DEJAVU as evidence.)  He is not here to impress us,
    he is here to open us up to exponential spiritual growth.  He has
    an immense amount of integrity towards that.
          Jach originally thought he was going crazy (when his then
    wife Peny told him what was happening while he was "asleep") 
    especially the first time he heard a tape recording Peny had made
    of a "meditation/sleep" session during which Lazaris came through.
    It caused him a great deal of distress (see foreward to Interviews
    I and II, also some information in the foreward to "A Sacred Journey".)
    One of the specialists he went to see was a man named Michaell Prestini.
    (To determine whether in fact he was crazy or something else was
    occurring.)  Michaell North (he recently changed from Prestini)
    has been married to Jach's former wife, Peny, for about a decade
    now.  Clearly Michaell, the "former expert", was convinced of the
    genuiness of the "article."  I am unaware of other tests; testing
    at this point would be ludicrous, save to satisfy the egos of certain
    individuals who would rather do that than TRUST.  
         Yes, absolutely, to whether Lazaris knows individual things
    that others would not!  Absolutely!!  He has repeatedly demonstrated
    this to me and to virtually everyone else I have ever spoken with
    who has had a private consultation wherein that kind of data would
    have appeared.  There is no question in my mind that he is completely
    aware of our entire "lifetimes(S)"  He has reported his awareness
    as analogous to a hologram...he can tap into any part and see the
    whole.  The "trick" even for him is to separate out that which we
    call present from that which we call past or future, since time
    is an illusion existing in ACTUALITY only in the physical plane.
    Also, he is wary of our negative egos and will not "feed" them.
    So, to that extent, you cannot "trick" him to answer things.  I
    swear to you that by the greatest truth of which I am aware all
    of what I say is true.
         If you want more tests, you are unlikely to find any.  If you
    wish to read/listen/hear the information and discover if it has
    truth and value for you, there is enough available to keep you 
    busy for the remainder of your incarnation as Linda, and maybe
    even beyond that.
    
    Frederick
    
833.4Re: .3SHRBIZ::WAINELindaFri Aug 19 1988 14:1371
    Re: .3
    
    Frederick, I am not picking on Lazaris, per se.  If you think that 
    Lazaris is legitimate, fine, so-be-it, embrace it, live it, etc.  I 
    support you entirely.  I am just questioning the scientific or
    personal proof and evidence of ALL mediums/trance channelers, in general.
    Here is an example of what I mean:
    
    	There is a trance-adept, physical-phenomena medium by the name
    of Keith Milton Rhinehart (founder of the Aqaurian Foundation in
    1955 in Seattle).  He is, as far as I'm concerned, the most
    scientifically tested physical phenomena medium I've ever heard
    of.   An example of the testing that he has undergone is a specifically
    designed chair at the University of Osaka, Japan, that once strapped
    in the chair, the slightest movement is registered on a computer.
    Well, several seances were held at the laboratory with Keith strapped
    in to the chair, under infra-red light so that the seances could
    be filmed.  During these seances, ectoplasm came forth from Keith's
    body and materialized into beings who said that they were the
    Masters of the Far East, and began to give lectures on every aspect
    of life mentionable.  I repeat, this all occurred while Keith
    was strapped in the chair, under scientific conditions.  Also during
    these seances (and in most of the many seances of Keith), all sorts
    of faceted crystals, rings, pins with the clasps undone, necklaces
    (small and huge), etc. came out of his eyes, mouths, ears, and openings
    that appeared in his skin.
    
    	Keith has done seances in which each member of a filled auditorium
    (hundreds of people) received specific personal proof and evidence
    (such as your grandmother Elizabeth is here, she is wearing a blue
    dress and smoking a Havana cigar and wants to tell you that you
    shouldn't feel guilty about your baby brother's bike accident that
    you caused when you were 10).
    
        A friend of mine is a medical doctor and he "toured" with Keith
    and did countless blood-chemistry experiments while Keith was in
    tranced.  He has found that there are definitely blood-chemistry
    changes in legitimate mediums.  He told me of many "incredible"
    things that he saw up close.  For example, prior to going into
    trance one thing that Keith does is to fill his mouth with water
    then tape his mouth shut and mark where the tape was put.  Well,
    at the end of the seance, Keith expelled the water into a bucket
    that my friend gave him.  Well, my friend put the bucket down and
    sat down by the bucket.  He looked into the bucket and saw white,
    globules floating in the water that Keith just expelled.  He sat
    and watch the globules and over a short period of time (minutes)
    he watched the globules solidify into faceted, colored crystals.
    
    	My point of all this is that for me to accept a lot of what
    a "medium" brings forth, there has got to be some sort of proof
    and evidence demonstrated of some sort.  Yes, faith is a big
    part of this since we are dealing with religion/philosophy,etc;
    but a medium should be able to constantly and reliably demonstrate 
    their mediumship ability under some sort of scientific proof and 
    evidence.  Remember, keep your critical faculties....
    
    	Also, in my opinion, any being that comes through a medium should 
    stress that a person should take the information given and examine
    it and analyze it and disect it, and put it through logic tests.
    If and only if the information passes this, should a person then
    accept it as truth.  The information should not be accepted just
    because "so-and-so" said so.  Also, the being should stress that
    when a person relays the information, the person should make
    clear that what is being said is coming from the person's own
    consciousness - what the person interprets the information to be -
    unless the person is doing a direct quote.
    
    So, what I want to know is what sort of scientific proof and evidence
    has J.Z.Knight, Jane Roberts, etc. undergone???
    
    Linda
833.5Quark charmers are relatively thoughtless.WRO8A::WARDFRGoing HOME--as an AdventurerFri Aug 19 1988 15:1138
    RE: .4
    
        No problem, Linda.  I pretty much can agree with most of what
    you say here.  The story you tell is quite fascinating.  I have
    heard that several "masters" or "mystics" or "swamis", etc.
    (Sai Baba comes to mind) have done similar things.  For me what
    this does is "proves" that we can indeed manifest "at will" under
    the proper preconditions.  Also, it is reasonably clear that all
    information is available to us (akashic record, e.g.) from the
    entire collective unconscious or another individual's sub-conscious
    (and we should similarly be able to cull information from our own
    sub-conscious, at that.)  
          As for Lazaris and some of the points you stress "in general",
    no problem there, either.  To quote him (from the Interviews II
    book:) "We don't want people listening to us 'because Lazaris said
    so, and he's from such-and-such a plane of reality.'  We want people
    to listen because 'Hey, what he says makes sense, and more than
    makes sense, it really works.  And more than really works, it has
    really benefitted me.  That's why I listen.'  That's why we want
    you to listen.  So we basically say, 'What plane would you like
    us to be on?  We'll meet you there.'"  
          I do not require scientific proof as you do, partly because
    I have learned (and I did many double-blind tests in many of my Psych
    classes) that science is not overwhelmingly reliable AND, I have,
    with TRUST (*NOT* FAITH) worked with other reality creation beliefs
    and attitudes and produced results...that may not necessarily be
    conclusively determined by "science."  I guess what I am saying
    is that in espousing the suggestions made by Lazaris, I am working
    at giving the collective unconscious the slip...and am becoming
    aware of a different reality.  For me, though it is still a bit
    hazy, it is becoming increasingly clearer.
          
          As the circus falls by the wayside, with all its snake-oil
    sales people and bearded ladies, what will be left is a truer
    picture of what in life has value.
    
    Frederick
    
833.6Reading RecommendationSCOPE::PAINTERWonders never cease.Fri Aug 19 1988 15:268
    
    There is a book out entitled "Channelling", by Jon Klimo.  I haven't
    read it all, however what I have read of it seems to be quite balanced.
    
    If you're interested in having a look at the table of contents,
    let me know and I'll bring the book in and post the TofC here.
                                                            
    Cindy
833.7Need more data.MEMV01::RENGAIM1RU12Fri Aug 19 1988 17:068
    Re: .4
    
    Fascinating!  I would like to learn more about Keith Milton Rhinehart.
    Can you recommend any books?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Vince
833.8WILLEE::FRETTSLove our Mother EarthFri Aug 19 1988 19:2044
        Linda (and everyone else :-),
    
    	Some of my thoughts on mediumship....

	During the height of the modern spiritualist movement in this
	country, many mediums were put through similar tests as you have
	described.  How they were able to work/give evidence under
	some of the conditions is amazing.  It's too bad James Randi
	wasn't around to witness the events that occurred with the
	physical medium you spoke about:-).  However, there are many 
	different types of mediumship that, to me, would be very difficult 
	to prove the validity of scientifically.  

	Physical mediumship in which physical objects are moved or
	apported, or there is a manifestation of spirit, seems the most 
	likely to give measurable results.  Also, because a physical 
	mediums body/energy is more involved in the process, testing of 
	the mediums physical changes would also give more measurable results.
	However, when we start to look at "mental" mediumship, we are dealing
	with less physical information.  There are "light" trance mediums
	who are much more consciously aware during the trance than a "deep"
	trance medium would be.  I doubt that there would be a big difference
	in their physical energy.  Then there are mediums who work with
	"telepathy" in combination with clairvoyance, clairaudience, and/or
	clairsentience.  Much of the work done by these types of mediums
	is for evidence of survival.  The main proof of the validity of 
	the information passed along is the impact it has on the person
	who is receiving the information.  It is very subjective.  

	I agree that anyone who is working as a medium must take 
	responsibility for what is communicated through them.  And
	they should also make sure that their ego doesn't take over
	and they stop working/questioning.  It's important to always
	be aware of what you are doing, and to question whether the
	communication is coming from spirit or if it is being
        picked up psychicly from the sitter.  I am also of the opinion
	that there is no such thing as a perfectly *clear* channel/
	medium - the person working as the instrument of communication
	is always involved to some extent.

        
	Carole
	 
833.9experience has been more convincing than speculation;SSDEVO::ACKLEYwowSun Aug 21 1988 04:3663
    
    	A few weeks back I went to visit a 'channeler' and found it
    to be a very interesting experience.   As for it's genuineness,
    this calls for some subjective judgement.   The experience seemed
    personally tuned to me, and another person watching it on video
    or something would probably not have been so impressed.

    	I had gone to visit my brother and his wife, and it was they
    who made this appointment.   They both have degrees in psychology,
    in the 'behaviorist' school, and frankly, I was surprised that
    they were open to such things.    The channeler was Nancy Doyne,
    in New Jersey.   She charged $80 for what turned out to be about
    a two hour session.  They had never been to her or any other 
    channeler before, nor had I.   We were there on the reccomendation
    of friends.   We all seemed to view it as a Saturday's entertainment, 
    and we went with fairly open minds.
    
    	We had two personal sessions, one for me, and one for my
    brother, and both were taped on cassette.   Later we listened
    to each other's tapes and were more impressed once we heard the 
    differences and similarities in the sessions.
    
    	My brother was very open with her, and had quite a two
    way discussion delving into past lives and karmic goals for
    this life.   Every point she brought up was accurately aimed
    at some real issue, although she sometimes had difficulty with
    details.   For instance she remarked that my brother had a
    resistance to helping with the cooking, while the fact is that
    my brother enjoys cooking and makes most of their meals, while
    it's his wife who has resistances to cooking.   In each case,
    she hit the issues correct, but may have skewed the details.
    The session clearly had a powerful emotional effect on my brother.
    
    	My session revealed my basic skepticism.   I said very little,
    to guard against leading her or feeding her extra information.
    I was in some senses, a difficult customer.   In spite of my 
    resistance, Nancy and her spirit guide (whom she calls Chico) 
    hit on every major issue that I am fighting with now.    The impact 
    this reading has had on me is growing with time, and my skepticism 
    is slipping as I am forced to admit how correct she (and he?) was.
    The 'past life' scenarios she described for me have proven to
    be a stunningly accurate summation of all my current conflicts.
    Some of this information was quite negative, and I have had to 
    struggle with some inner resistance since then, to come to terms
    with the truth of it.

	In the final analysis, I see that we felt better, very good,
    in fact, after meeting this woman.   It was a good experience, and
    a healing one.   The 'good fruits' of this meeting were evident
    in the smiles and wonder we have carried from there.    Still, from
    a skeptical point of view, nothing much happened except a weird
    conversation.   In this case, the 'skeptic' side of my personality
    manifested as a resistance to the basic truth of what was being
    given to me.
    
    	These sessions contained *nothing* in the way of evidential
    proof of her mediumship.   There was nothing to convince the
    observer, nothing I could hand to another to prove the value
    of the experience.   Yet I *know* this was valuable.   It has
    been one of many powerful triggers in an ongoing personal
    transformation.

    				Alan.
833.10Re: .8, .7SHRBIZ::WAINELindaMon Aug 22 1988 16:3632
    Re: .8
    
    	When I first heard about Keith Milton Rhinehart (KMR), I did
    a lot of investigation on the tests he had undergone.  (I have a
    physics background, so I definitely wanted more info...) To this
    date, as far as I know, KMR is the ONLY medium to pass the "Chair"
    test at the University of Osaka.  As of this date, to my knowledge,
    there is no one (except KMR) that has "passed" this test whether
    the person be a medium, illusionist, or otherwise.  It is my 
    understanding that the scientists who developed the "Chair" used 
    people of James Randi's calliber in the initial development and 
    testing of the "Fraud-proof chair" (the term that the scientists used, 
    not my term...).  This test is only one of many, many scientific tests 
    that KMR has undergone.
    
    	I agree with you that many types of mediumship are extremely
    difficult, if not impossible, to prove the validity of, scientifically.
    That is where personal proof-and-evidence falls into play, and how
    well the environment of the medium is controlled.
    
    Linda
    
    P.S. Re: .7.  I do know of a couple of books that do mention KMR
    and some of the testing he has undergone.  I'll get the exact names
    and authors and post them.  Also, if you want more information,
    you can also call the Aquarian Foundation and they should be able
    to direct you to more info.  (The Aquarian Foundation has many
    branches and study groups in many of the major cities of the US, 
    Canada, and abroad...  There's a big branch in NYC, and study groups 
    in Boston and Hartford.  If you have a problem locating a branch/study
    group, send me a message and I'll see what I can come up with...)

833.11Omniscient being flunks Logic 101!CTHULU::YERAZUNISWe don't need that part.Mon Aug 22 1988 22:3761
    I was watching some mindless TV show (couldn't sleep) and they had
    a "channeler" on.  The host interviewed her, they talked about her
    correspondent, and she agreed to go into channeling state so that
    the studio audience could ask questions.
    
    Her initial answers (to the hosts' questions) were on the order
    of "I'm <mumble>, I'm n thousand years old, I'm essentially omniscient,
    I'm here to help and enlighten you, ask me anything you want".
    
    Most of the audience questions were drivel ("when's the next earthquake
    in California?  Three years...") but one young lady (who has earned
    my everlasting gratitude) went right for the jugular:
    
    	Q: Is there any question you can't answer?
           
    	A: Uhhh, I don't know... I hope not...
    
    	Q: <knowing smile> Thank you.
    
    Conclusion: this "channeler" is not what she claims. 
    
    -----   
                                    
    Consider                                    
    	She was asked: 
    		IS THERE A QUESTION YOU CANNOT ANSWER?
    
    	She answered:
    		I DON'T KNOW.
    
    so she (and I, and any other observer) immediately knows that she
    can't answer the question "Is there a question you can't answer?".
    
    Therefore, the correct answer to the question is not "I don't know",
    it's "YES!"  (because there is at least one question she can't answer).
    
    	(well, either "YES!" or sparks should shoot from her fingers,
    ectoplasm spout from her mouth, and all the clocks in the state
    should run backwards... :-)  ) 
    
    We know she should have answered "yes"... now consider: what
    if the being was omniscient _except_ for the above question.  Then,
    to answer "YES" would be wrong, because all questions could be
    answered.  So, if this being were omniscient _except_ for questions
    about it's own omniscience, the correct answer would be NO; it could
    answer all questions; either because it was omniscient or because
    it could logically deduce the one answer above.  Hence:
    
    
    	Being answers:    	Conclusion:
    
    	Yes			Being cannot answer some questions,
    					and knows it.
    
    	No			Being is truly omniscient
    
    	Don't know		Being isn't good at logic, let alone
    					omniscience.      
    
    
    		-Bill (back from vacation in the Twilight Zone)
833.12citations?MERCY::CONNELLYEye Dr3 -- Regnad KcinTue Aug 23 1988 01:007
re: .10
>    	When I first heard about Keith Milton Rhinehart (KMR), I did
>    a lot of investigation on the tests he had undergone.  

Were any of these experiments published in scientific journals (and
if so, which ones)?  Sounds like interesting reading.
							paul
833.13Some books & journals about Keith Milton RhinehartSHRBIZ::WAINELindaWed Aug 24 1988 17:0221
    Here's a start on some books and scientific journals with information
    on Keith Milton Rhinehart:
    
    	- This Timeless Moment by Laura Huxley (Aldous Huxley's wife)
    
    	- True Experiences in Communicating with the Dead
               Editted by Martin Ebon
               See chapter entitled "Seattle's Psychic Wonder" by Suzy Smith

    	- Parapsychology and the Nature of Life by John L. Randall
               tells about some of the testing done on KMR by
               Dr. Helmut Schmidt, then senior research scientist for
               Boeing Research Laboratories in Seattle, Washington.
    
    	Dr. Schmidt's results of the experimentation on KMR was published
        in "New Scientist" - 10/16/69, pages 114,115; and in Journal
        of Parapsychology, Volume 33, Number 2, June 1969, pages 99-108.
    
    Hopefully, more to follow soon... (When I get a chance...)
    
    Linda