Conference hydra::dejavu

WRO8A::GUEST_TMP "Going HOME--as an Adventurer"      18 lines  27-JUL-1988 02:44
                            -< Dialing for dollars >-
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    I just received a flyer in the mail (I wonder who put me on this
    mailing list?) for a couple of workshops in Sept. and Oct. by
    Scott Peck and Claudia Black (she of "Adult Children of Alcoholics"
    'fame'.)  What I find interesting is that the 5 1/4 hours of talk/
    discussion costs $85.  In the past people have made comments about
    the costs of spirituality...many believe that spirituality should
    somehow be "free" of money costs.  Interesting to note that everyone
    who is interested in participating in a full life as a totally
    participating human being who is completely independent (not dependent
    on handouts, etc.) charges what most other professionals in
    "non-spiritual" endeavors similarly charge.  Could it be that perhaps
    spirituality can be propelled by paying for it?  Zounds!
    
    
    Frederick (who-definitely-is-responsible-about-money-and-knows-how-to-
    value-spiritual-growth)
    
    

SCOPE::PAINTER "Feelin' happy....."                   4 lines  27-JUL-1988 10:54
                            -< I didn't do it..... >-
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    Really Frederick - it wasn't me.  *{(8*)||
    
    Cindy

GENRAL::DANIEL "Strength proven; success deserved"    8 lines  28-JUL-1988 18:00
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Frederick!

Big dif between $85 for a weekend and $500, methinks.  I can understand making 
up costs for printed material, airline fare, hotel reservations, food costs, 
and having a some left over.  I don't think that $85 is unreasonable to ask 
from participants for these reasons.  In short, there are some costs that are 
reasonable, and some that are so out-of-line that it's nothing short of blatant 
greed, which is hardly in accord with a spiritual attitude.
    

WRO8A::GUEST_TMP "Going HOME--as an Adventurer"      20 lines  29-JUL-1988 10:20
                           -< Look before you leap. >-
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    re: MEredith
    
         My, my, no hidden angers here, are there?  Of course, that
    the information is misrepresented in your statements goes only to
    show that you prefer your justification for whatever reasons than
    to see the differences.  In the first place, you aren't making clear
    what you are comparing the costs to.  In the second place, this
    "all day" Saturday event that I was referring to is really only
    5 1/4 hours of talks AND discussion...in other words, there really
    isn't very much substance for the $85.  Of course, if someone gets
    something of significant or over-riding value, then certainly it
    would have been worth it.  But then, if it's that significant, even
    $500 would have been worth it, n'est-ce pas?  (And what or who are
    you referring to that costs $500?  And how many hours of material,
    etc. are presented?  And what are you so angry about...perhaps your
    own failure to experience enough success to make the amount
    insignificant?
    
    Frederick
    
    

GENRAL::DANIEL "Strength proven; success deserved"   13 lines  29-JUL-1988 11:57
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Frederick

I reread what I said

I don't see any anger in it

however in your response I see

abrasion, sharpness, rudeness, and

ANGER!

so who's projecting anger on to WHOM?
    

SCOPE::PAINTER "Feelin' happy....."                   9 lines  29-JUL-1988 11:59
                             -< It's OK - really. >-
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    Peace, my friends.
    
    Please?
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. It looked like a full moon last night.  Can anyone confirm
        this?  Just an observation.
    

VITAL::KEEFE "Bill Keefe - 223-1837 - MLO21-4"        5 lines  29-JUL-1988 12:07
                             -< full moon tonight >-
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    re .18
    
    Actually, the full moon is the 29th, tonight!
    
    	- Bill
    

WRO8A::GUEST_TMP "Going HOME--as an Adventurer"      25 lines  29-JUL-1988 12:17
                     -< Which part are we trying to kick? >-
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    re: -.2 (Meredith)
    
        ...I give up...who?
    
    
        Upon closer examination, I can perhaps see a different intention.
    So, if that be the case, then I was reading more into it than was
    necessary.  Actually, what I was attempting to do is to present
    a case *for* spending money.  Where I read the anger is in the words
    "blantant greed" (which is an angry set of words) and I carried
    that to the rest of the note.  Blatant greed usually has a way of
    canceling itself out, either by failure to garner attention (an
    option clearly available to people in this circumstance) or by
    revolution (where that option is not available...such as taxes.)
    Again my point is that if an individual clearly receives what he
    or she considers to be a great benefit, then it is worth whatever
    it is *they* are willing to pay for it.  
    
         ...I may be a bit rude sometimes and even abrasive...depends
    on your perceptions.  Would you care for some of my "anal-yses"?
    
    
    Frederick
    

ISTG::DOLLIVER "Todd O. Dolliver"                    21 lines  29-JUL-1988 12:30
             -< Full-Moon-itis is here, don't catch it if you can >-
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    re .18, .19 ;
    
    Actually, according to my trusty ephemeris, and as listed in the
    current Astrology Watch reply (note 672.21) the Full moon actually
    was late _last_ night (Thursday).
    
     July
      ...
      28    v/c             12:49p          Sun 06Leo tri Mar 06Ari
            enter Aquarius   1:24p          Mer enter Leo     5:19p
            opp Sun 06Leo   11:27p (Full)
      ...
    
    Of course, the effects of the Full moon last for at least a day
    on either side of the Full moon (especially _after_) so maybe we
    are _ALL_ right!
    
    Anyway, I hope we won't have to come to full-moon-blows over this
    minor distinction  ;-)
    
    							Todd
    

USAT05::KASPER "Life is like a beanstalk, isn't it.." 8 lines  29-JUL-1988 15:03
                         -< Where the value lies.... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: .20 and the others about $$$$$

The only value money has is that which we give it.  It has no inherent value
of it's own.  Therefore, when it comes to spending it, if the value is placed 
on the product or service rather than the money nothing of value is given up,
rather something of value is gained.

Terry 
    

GENRAL::DANIEL "Strength proven; success deserved"    8 lines  29-JUL-1988 16:20
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>The only value money has is that which we give it.  

If I work for 8 hours a day at $10.00 per hour (which I don't) I make $80 a 
day.  Therefore, time is money and money is time.  Via our jobs, a trading 
value (i.e. money) is placed on the alleged importance of our function in 
society.  Therefore, when it comes to spending it, what we are spending is the 
time which we have invested.

    

GENRAL::DANIEL "Strength proven; success deserved"  110 lines  29-JUL-1988 17:18
                               -< out on a limb >-
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If a mentor really wants to spread Universal Love and Light, will s/he make 
that message available to only the elitist chosen few who make the megabucks to 
afford it, or will s/he want for the Message to be more affordable to the 
masses?  i.e., is the message only for the wealthy, or is it really for All?

>Lazarus workshops
>    Costs:  Sunday- $40
>            Evening-$25
>            2-Day- $275
>            Lemuria-$1000


>      Lazaris will speak Friday evening, Oct. 2, at 8 p.m. on:
>    "Focus on the Future: Your Personal Role in the Unfolding Spiritual
>      Dream."
>    The cost is $25 pre-registered, $30 at the door.

>        For those on the lookout for Lazaris' book...it has been
>    delayed at the printers.  I was told this morning that it will
>    be released on Thursday, the 10th of December.  
>      
>        The first four-day workshop will be held in L.A. the 
>    11-14th of Febrauary, 1988.  The cost of this "Intensive"
>    is $600.

Note 398.20                    

    re: -.2 (Meredith)
    
>a case *for* spending money.  

Spending money is what makes the country work.  I am under the impression that 
Lazarus, in particular, is trying to spread a spiritual message.  But what he 
is asking for, cost-wise, makes his spiritual message available only to those 
who have a spare $200 for all the tapes that are needed, or $600-$1000 for an 
intensive seminar, hanging around, or those who can qualify for a loan and are 
willing to go in to debt for the same.  There are those to whom the Spiritual 
Message seems to be unintended.  If we are indeed all part of the great Oneness,
then this does not make sense.

>Where I read the anger is in the words
>"blantant greed" (which is an angry set of words) 

Really?  I think you just chose to read them that way.  Blatant means 
completely conspicuous, which is the definition by which I was using it, and 
greed means an excessive desire to acquire or possess, as in wealth or power, 
beyond what one needs.  I think that $1000 or $600 per-person seminar, through 
which one can not earn money him/herself based upon degree or certification, is 
a very good example of blatant greed.  Please understand, I do not limit my 
definition of blatant greed to Lazarus, but I know that you do tend to defend 
his right to charge what he wants to charge.  I say he can, too, but I do have 
an ethical vantage point as well, that makes me wonder why only the rich can be 
included in upon what is supposed to be a spiritual message.

I learned a meditation once, and it cost me $75 to have my chart cast, and to 
have the astrologer fit my chart in with the meditation that I was learning.  I 
learn through this meditation, through my own inner contact, revealing, trust 
and knowledge, about the topics that have been discussed as part of Lazarus' 
tape series and seminar series.  Cost total is $75.  If I would like to become 
a certified Initiator into this meditation, i.e., cast charts for others (be an 
astrologer), be versed in the recommended reading list, be versed in the 
meditation (having kept a log of meditations daily for at least one year), be 
able to synthesize the chart with the archetypal natal representations that it 
presents, I can attend a three-week intensive course, after which I will be 
certified to teach the meditation.  The course includes; yoga classes, 
astrology classes, lunch each day (macrobiotic menu), tarot classes, 
meditations, and a host of other benefits, for $1500, after which I will be 
able to charge $75 for casting and interpreting the chart and synthesizing it 
with the meditation.  After twenty such readings, I will have made up my cost.

>Blatant greed usually has a way of
>cancelling itself out, either by failure to garner attention 
>or by revolution.

True; that which is obvious (blatant) does not always garner attention.  ("You 
can't even see what's under your nose!") Regarding revolution, I think that, 
in some cases, it takes a lot of time for blatant greed to cancel itself in 
that manner.  I am not altogether convinced that it does.  Sometimes, it 
continues to be more greedy (and more blatant at times; other times, too subtle 
to be blatant), but those with the greed for money often (not always) also have 
the greed for power, and unfortunately have been satisfied on both counts to 
the point where those wishing for revolution must find a way to gain power 
before they can fight to gain power...what a circle...

>    Again my point is that if an individual clearly receives what he
>    or she considers to be a great benefit, then it is worth whatever
>    it is *they* are willing to pay for it.  

"What the market will bear", so to speak...

And what about those who would really be benefitted by what Lazaris has to say, 
but yet, don't have a spare $200-$600-$1000 hanging around?   I think that a 
situation like this creates a world where only the wealthy can be spiritually 
enlightened via outside sources.  Basically, Frederick, it all really does 
come from inside of us, and outside sources are nothing more or less than a way 
to turn us on and tune us in to what is inside.  To put a price tag on that 
kind of access is impossible; to keep it from certain members of society simply 
because the material world isn't full and vital for all, is unfair.  But then, 
who said the world was fair, right? 

>depends
>on your perceptions.  

And somewhat on your intentions, which may be implied by your wording, or may 
simply be inferred where no implication was intended.

>Would you care for some of my "anal-yses"?

O Anchovy Arch Enemy, methinks not.  I grew up with that kind of stuff.  Look 
what it did to me %^}
    

DECWET::MITCHELL "The Cosmic Anchovy"                22 lines  29-JUL-1988 20:38
                               -< The solution >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As Jesus said, "Freely ye have received, freely give."  I think
    that those with TRUE spiritual gifts do not charge for their services.
    I mean, can you see this?:
    
    SERMON on the MOUNT
    
    Sabbath Day, 10:00 AM.  Presented by Jesus H. Christ. $50.00 at
    the door.
    
    ALL DAY DESERT SEMINAR
    
    Staring Jesus H. Christ.  A Trinity Production.  $600.00 at The
    Door (no pun intended).  $675.00 including lunch of loaves and fishes. 
    
    Really, the way to bring the Lazaris/Seth/Ramtha crowd into check is to
    pay NOTHING at the door.  If they are asking for a donation, regardless
    of the amount, they cannot refuse you entry BY LAW if you don't pay.
    If they do, report them to the IRS. 
    
    John M.
    

REGENT::WAGNER                                      116 lines   1-AUG-1988 14:31
                             -< The Value of Peck >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I rarely give input to or get involved in ego clashes but I'll try this time 
and see if I can refrain form getting caught up in the dharma or create any 
negative karma.(for myself)


re .25

	That was all well and good in Jesus' day.  He didn't lease halls to 
give his message in.  or advertise in various printed material.  He went out 
among the people.  For someone today to get their message out there needs to 
be a lot of financial preparation.  Who pays for all that preparation?  
Granted, I believe that there should be no monetary value placed on the 
information by the giver of that information, but an intrinsic value could and 
should be placed on that informaton according to the value received from the 
listener.  This value will be different for each receiver of information and 
determinded to a large part by those receiving that information.  Of course 
whether there is any value at all in any given information is soly up to the 
listener, not the person who is giving the information whether it be Jesus, 
Buddha, Seth, or Lazarus or Peck.


Then there is the psychological point that many people equate value with 
price.  Jesus didn't charge money for his information but he didn't have too 
many people listening to him either, not by today's standards.  My perception 
is that Jesus gave "useful information." That is, information that could be 
directly used to to better ourselves with, directly assist us in getting 
in touch with our higher selves, With the God force within us.  Whereas, most 
information today only contains a small core of information that is useful.
What does believing that time is not sequential have to do with getting me 
spiritually closer to God?  How is believing that there are seven bodies 
(or what ever number) in each of us, get me spiritually closer to cosmic
consciousness? That information might be very accurate, but it is not in the 
least bit useful in getting me to my spiritual goals.  It is my contention 
that the useful information that Jesus gave freely is the same useful 
information that is given in lectures today at $85 or $600.  Except that 
today there is much more "extranious" information thrown in to justify the 
prices charged.  I, personally place value on the knowledge and information I 
contribute to my job and very little to the time.  so, if I thought I could not 
get the same information from a less expensive source(which I'm sure I could),
I would consider the possibility that someone charging  a significant sum, is 
offering a large amount of knowledge or offering it in a way that I would 
easily assimilate that knowledge.  If this were the case, I would probably 
spend the asked for amount.  

Any "useful information" that is sold at a high price, most probably can be 
gained from a less expensive source.  I have read almost all of Pecks books 
and similar material by other authors.  I'm not sure that his lectures would 
offer any significant new information and would probably would not attend.
What I would like to do is attend a seminar on building community, that he 
offers from time to time.  He doesn't even have a monopoly on this 
information as I have experienced community in different settings.  Attending 
one of his seminars hopefully would give me some more knowledge of forming 
community in different 'environments' than the one in which i experienced 
community.  Thus the new knowledge gained might be worth a significant amount 
of money to me.  

re .26


"...that you are clearly working with limited beliefs."

And you are not working with limited beliefs?  or are you convinced that you 
are not operating in a similiar manner as you accuse the others of doing.
We are all working to some degree with "negative Ego"  INCLUDING YOU.  The 
problem is that the closer we come to total self awareness (the elimination of 
'negative ego')  the more subtle the ego becomes in hiding its negative 
actions and the more difficult it becomes for our conscious self to notice our 
"negative Ego" in action.  The ego can become so covert that our conscious 
self may never know it is still existing.  Remember the passage that tells of 
Jesus saying that it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle that 
for a person to get into heaven?  The Ego is the reason.  I dislike the term 
"negative ego" because it implies two different egos: a negative ego and a 
positive one.  There is only one Ego in an individual (excepting perhaps
multiple personalities). it's purpose is to fulfill the needs of an individual 
in the most pleasant manner possible.  If it pursues counter-productive 
(negative) strategies to accomplish this, it cares not.  It is up to our 
conscious selves to maintain vigilant and immpecable monitoring of our actions 
to make sure that our ego has not reverted to covert negative means to fulfil 
our needs.

You say: "choose your own path... some are faster than others." 
If you mean that some paths are more suited to an individual's understanding 
and easier for a particular individual to gain the knowledge to attain 
perfection of the self, I might agree with you. But what if ones proper path is 
one of consesus view point.  
	You make some Gross assumptions on your part when  you declare:
"Following some sort of consensus view point will 'undoubtably' result in the 
same sort of consensus ends(?)...  ...misery, nobility in struggle, poverty 
consciousness, etc. etc."  Is belief in a God a consensus view? Does it always 
lead to misery,(assuming misery is bad).  Saint theresa, Saint Frances of 
Assis were two notable persons who  did not seem to reach "concensus ends."
They were not rich, but they were not living in misery as we understand it.
one can become rich, as long as one does not lose sight of their spiritual 
goals.  But when the ego has the financial capability to buy any of the 
individuals' needs one must be very astitute in monitoring the overt and 
covert actions of their own ego. What about funds and foundations set up by 
many rich, religious people for those less fortunate?  Seems to me these 
people have a rather consensus view when it comes to their views of God.
Are they poor and miserable?

 Whether money is in the picture or not, 
maintaining a vigilant observation of our ego and its resulting actions is 
very tiring and quite often we let our guard slip  and end up letting a 
negative covert action slip through our defenses thus resulting in the hurting 
of ourself and/or someone else.


Then there is the Bhuddist concept that whatever Peck or Seth or Jesus or 
Lasarus says is irrelevant because to listen to them and operate by them is 
to maintain an attachment.  just another attachment that must be eliminated 
before one can reach enlightenment.  in their belief, these attachments are 
what keep us from becoming one with the God force. I personally believe this
(which is an attachment...) (:' )

Ernie
    

DECWET::MITCHELL "The Cosmic Anchovy"                17 lines   1-AUG-1988 17:14
                            -< Fleecing the Sheep >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    RE: .28 (Ernie)
    
    Interesting reply, but I don't accept your evaluation on why supposedly
    spiritual services charge so much money.  Fliers and halls aren't
    THAT expensive.  When you look at the personal incomes of some of
    these "teachers," you have no doubt as to why they charge so much.
    
    It's funny... Jim and Tammy-fay Baker are generally laughed at for
    being money-hungry charlatans (and rightly so), yet some of the
    scoffers think nothing of shelling out $600.00 to watch someone squint
    and talk in a funny voice.  Jim and Tammy only ask for a simple
    OFFERING, for Pete's sake.  But as P.T. Barnum said...
    
    Judge a tree by the fruit it bears.  When you take an apple from
    a tree, does it hold out its branches for payment?
    
    John M.

SCOPE::PAINTER "Feelin' happy....."                  10 lines   1-AUG-1988 19:19
                             -< The mind wanders >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     
    Re.29 (John M.)
    
    > does the tree ask for payment when you take an apple from it?
    
    Well, if you're on the way to OZ, you might get your hand slapped.
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy
    

BSS::BLAZEK "Dancing with My Self"                   43 lines   1-AUG-1988 20:50
                     -< Locked if you've lost all reason >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    	Am a bit wary that we're continuing this in the Peck topic, but
    	we're already here so will go with the flow...
    
    re: .28 (Ernie)
    
    	Thank you for entering a thoughtful, level-headed reply.  I'm in
    	total agreement that clinging to such teachers is an attachment
    	of sorts, and that if we're to reach true enlightenment there's
    	no other place to search than within.  We can listen to Lazaris/
    	Ramtha/Christ/name-your-favorite-teacher for years without ever
    	venturing within.  They're distracting, an outside focus, a way 
    	to avoid dealing with your own Self.  Definitely a way to avoid
    	responsibility.  "But so-and-so said it was true."  Hallelujah!  
    	Amen.  The be all and end all.
    
    	For us to look within would mean drastic decreases in particular
    	teachers' income--judging by certain people's lifestyles I'd say 
    	their goals are not in accordance with inner knowledge.  At least 
    	*our* inner knowledge.  Christ, obviously, was an exception.  But 
    	the years of his physical lifetime displayed significantly less 
    	rampant zealousness to put a pricetag on spirituality, as if now
    	spirituality was a rare old bottle of Mouton de Rothschild to be 
    	purchased one day, shown to those who also appreciate fine wine, 
    	let amass dust for years, and all because there's never really an 
    	intention of drinking such personal pride.  Such an art.  It's to 
    	look at, show off, perhaps auction away in another 10 years.

     	To look within and realize we can only be our*Self* is to realize 
    	that even though others can initially help us, there's only so 
    	much they can do before a solitary venture must be faced.  I'm
     	not talking of spending a life in the hills of Tibet, but facing
    	certain responsibilities and *looking within* for answers rather
    	than expensively turning to someone else who (whilst squinting or
    	not) murmurs vanilla generalizations.
    
    	Fliers and the expense of renting an auditorium are one thing, but
    	at $500/head (and these aren't small seminars, drawing in several
    	hundreds of people) I can't believe there's not a zest for pure
    	profit.  And for me, that's wrong, and *not* what spirituality is
    	about.
    
    							Carla

REGENT::WAGNER                                       57 lines   1-AUG-1988 23:44
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    Me thinks that there are generalizations going on in this topic.
    
    I don't remember what the flyer was asking for- a donation or a
    given cost- since it is setting at work and I am not right now.
    As far as I am concerned is that Pecks lecturing is "for profit"
    and that is ok with me because it is in the same line as Dale
    Carnegie's courses.  I don't know where to draw the line because
    all learning is spiritual in nature. Some is just to a greater degree,
    more spiritual, than other types of learning. Let me say it again:
    if the information will allow me in an efficient and timely manner,
    to reach the place I want to be socially, financially, or spiritually
    I will pay $500 or $1000 for it. Unless I have the initiative to
    look for the same information elsewhere which it probably is. It's
    the value I place on it that is important.  I could make a value
    judgement that says that I might believe that the person is wrong to
    not give it to the poor who might spiritually profit from it.  But whether
    or not that person is gaining profit from disseminating that information
    is his response to the karma(positive or negative) he is dealing with.
    I can turn around and give it away (unless it is copyrighted) to
    those I might "believe" cannot afford it but might profit from it.
    But both aspects are only my judgement of an individuals situation.
    You out there who "believe" that the less financially secure should
    have access to that expensive information, are you sure those people
    are ready(spiritually, intellectually) to have access to that material. 
    Please remember that "when the student is ready the teacher will appear" 
    By "teacher" I imply persons, books or other devices, internal or
    external that will reveal to that person the required information
    that they need for spiritual advancement.
    	I have been going through this delemna for some time now because
    I've been wanting to go "public" and advertise to do numerology charts
    for those who might be helped by this information.  I have done
    many charts but charged for almost none so far. How do I place a
    value on a fair price for a chart?  What ever I charge, it is I
    and only I who must account for any karma(positive or negative)
    I accumulate in this venture.  I'm sure I will continue to give
    away many charts to those I "believe" are in need but cannot afford
    the set price.
    	After much inner conflict with myself, this concept has become
    a simple one to me but one of those that is still difficult to explain
    with few words.  I put quotes around the word 'believe' because
    the belief that something is such and such is just an attachment
    to an idea.  such a situation might be very well what you think
    it is, but it may exist for a very different purpose than you believe
    it exists for.  having a set belief keeps us attached to an idea
    and prevents us from getting beyond those limitations and seeing
    a situation for what it really might be- some kind of karmic situation
    set up for the players "acting out" that particular situation. 
    As long as were attached to an idea concerning a certain situation,
    we are subject to collecting the karma that the situation provides.
    
    I think I just brought this reply to a logical conclusion.  I hope
    it did not bring more confusion to anyone, than before I entered
    it.
       
    
    Ernie
    

I only know about Lazaris qhat I read here.  He
seems harmless enough.  One sign of a good teacher
is that she encourages you to grow beyond what she can
teach you and then nudges you out of the nest,
perhaps to find a new guide through your next stage
of development.   I haven't seen any evidence that
Lazaris discourages those who wish to seek elsewhere.
He doesn't seem to prey on guilt and fear, or use
high-pressure sales techniques as some preachers
and ome new-age gurus do.

So what if Lazaris says nothing new?  He is making
a lot of knowledge _accessible_ to a great many people,
who otherwise might never discover any inkling of
different paths.

So what if Lazaris earns big bucks?  The linking
of poverty and enlightenment is another aspect of
a particular belief system, and may or  may not
be valid.   Anyway, who knows what he does with 
his zilliions?   Why is having money viewed as
inherently bad?  Perhaps Lazaris is still on the 
path to enlightenment, too, and  is just a step or 
two ahead of (some of) us.

It seems to me that he does no harm,  and apparently         
does some good by raising awareness of new possibilities.
                                                

I don't quite understand all the negative  energy
aimed at him.  My only beef is the constant drone
"Lazaris says..."  That's an appeal to authority, and
has as little validity as "the bible says..."        
or "my mommy says...."  I may use someone else as a
guide, but _I create my own_ reality.

	Bruce
    

I certainly agree, Bruce.

A Lazaris tape gives you many hours and at different times, different
and deep enlightenment... that truly helps with your *inner* growth.

Also I don't think $9.95 for his book, is that outrageous. I have read
it acouple times and have felt alot of love and *no pressure* at all
to BUY more or Spend more.   There are some things money can't BUY!
Lazaris humor alone would be worth it!

Hope to see all you guys at his visit in Oct.??? Start saving now..;^)
geez, enought already.

Mikki

    I have spent much time and many dollars *investing* in my spiritual
    growth. That includes $3.95 for "The Prosperity Secret of the Ages,"
    by Elizabeth Ponder, $5.00 for admission to the Whole Life Expo,
    $9.95 for subliminal tapes, $13.00 for a Tarot reading, $35-60/hour
    for an massage $75.00 for an 
    astrology chart and interpretation, $90.00/session for Rolfing
    (for 10 visits) $95.00 for a weekend of yoga and meditation at Kripalu, 
    $100.00 (refundable all or in part at the end of the training, no questions 
    asked) for a 4 evening & one weekend Awakening the Heart Seminar,
    $225.00 for a weekend workshop in Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP), 
    $775.00 for an intensive training called Insight II,  $900 for a
    seven month NLP practitioner's course -- the list
    goes on and on. And every minute and every dollar I have spent has
    been worth it, even when the service/product was not. (I can see
    some of you adding up all these figures.. ;-) ).
    
    For me (and this is *my* belief system only), spending the money
    I earn and the time I have in spiritual pursuits is a major reason
    why I am here on this planet. Most of the services/products I have
    received have been worth my money and time, in that they have assisted
    me in integrating and *using* the information offered. Some of
    these services/products I feel differently about, and my feeling is to
    be cautious about participating with the same people again.  
    
    Participating in spiritual pursuits was not always easy, especially when
    I first "began" in this lifetime, at a time when I felt spiritually
    and financially "broke." The incident that comes to mind was when
    I heard about Silva Mind Control, wanted to take it, and was holding
    back because of the price tag ($295 or thereabouts at the time --
    about 11 years ago -- with unlimited repeats anywhere in the world.). 
    
    I called the instructor and asked for financial
    assistance. He asked me to come to an intro meeting, which I did.
    There he told me I could write a letter to Silva headquarters and
    that what generally happens in cases like this is that the writer
    is given a scholarship for half of the course. I remember looking
    at Gerry and saying, "but I don't have the other half." 
    
    "That's OK," he told me. "We're sure that you will be able to create
    it for yourself using what you learn in the first portion. Then you
    can come back another time, pay for it and take the second half." 
    
    It sounded exciting to me, so I wrote to headquarters, got the partial
    scholarship, took the first half of the coure,
    used the techniques I learned to create the funds for
    take the second half a month or so later, and have
    been going strong since.
                                
    To me, this was true *support from the Universe*, in that I was given
    the tools to go out and prove certain metaphysical principles to myself
    and become a more conscious creator. 
         
    Another time I finished a personal growth seminar, wanted to go on to 
    the next level, but was afraid I didn't have the money. The facilitator
    told us that when we make a commitment, then act upon it, the Universe
    will come forward to support us in ways in which we may never have
    dreamed. I figured this was a good time to test that out, so I put
    down my deposit for the next seminar. Well, the next day, I was
    asked by a client to develop a project on -- change and empowerment.
    The contract paid for the training.                              
    
    Yet, other times I have asked for financial assistance and/or made
    the commitment and taken the first step(s) and not received any
    support. I believe my lesson has been to use this for my own growth,
    trust that my Higher Self has other plans for me, and move on. 
    
    Now, my personal work involves looking closely to see where I start to 
    react about how much money (and time) is too much to spend for my
    growth, since one of my strengthening belief systems is in the
    Universe's infinite abundance. $9.95 for a tape is fine -- $16.95 is
    not. $695 for a 2 night, Tony Robbins seminar is now OK, but I feel 
    uncomfortable with the thought of paying $995 for a 10 week training.
    It's all very interesting to me. 
    
    The bottom line, for me, is what I learn about myself and how
    I use it to learn more about myself and grow. Money is an area
    where a lot of us hold some pretty strong belief systems (some would
    call these belief systems "resistances") so it therefore offers
    many opportunities for change and evolution.  The key is to be open,
    to look and be aware, to be willing to change and grow, and then to
    act.
    
    This is a great topic. It is generating a lot of response from many
    of us and therefore offers a wealth of opportunity for awareness
    and grwoth.
    
    May this note and the energy it is generating be used for the Highest 
    Good of All Concerned.
       
    Peace,
    Lois        
    
    
    
     
    
    
    

   I have been following this discussion, determined to simply observe and see 
how it goes. The last few replies have eroded that determination.

   I, too am familiar with the teachings of Lazeris. I am also familiar 
with the business of Lazeris. The teachings are good and helpful, but when 
you look realistically at the business, you will realize that it does exist 
for profit, not to enlighten. The fact that the teachings have helped 
people (those who can afford it) is incidental.

   When this discussion began, my understanding was that the issue was about
groups and organizations that sell enlightenment for profit -- not about
people's attitudes about money, their like or dislike of the teachings, or 
their so - called "negative ego" problems or repressed anger. Does everyone 
who points out the realities of the "Lazeris business" have ego problems? 
And how can anyone who has been helped by the teachings make personal 
attacks on another's ego/spirituality? That's what has been happening here, 
despite flowery words and claims to the contrary.

   I expect to be attacked for what I've said here. Feel free. You don't 
know me, my spiritual beliefs, or my ego problems (yes: I admit I have 
them. Don't all human beings?). Any attacks you make on me will be based on 
ignorance, and will demonstrate the darkest manifestation of ego: spiritual 
conceit.

   Please note that I personally attack no one. Note also that I am not 
attacking the teachings of Lazeris (why should I? I consider them some of 
the best teachings around!). I am simply asking intelligent people to resume
an intelligent discussion. The personal attacks of the last few entries have
no place here.

                                                     -Robert Brown III
   

Just to comment on the topic, not to dispute or support any particular
view beacuse I think all points are well taken (aside from the "battle
of the ego's"), aren't we all equally within reach of our own development?
Does anyone have advantage over another because of money, status or anything
else when it comes to spiritual growth?  When one develops beyond another 
is it because they have some sort of material advantage?  I don't think so.  
We choose our path, our pace and our methods -- different roads, same 
destination.  When we perceive someone to have an advantage over us because
they could afford something we couldn't or go somewhere we could not go to
gain spiritual insight, isn't it just an excuse, our ego not wanting to
play the game?  In my case it is and when I become aware of it I can usually
work thru it and grow in my own way.

Any barriers to my growth are placed there by me alone and can be removed
by me alone.  

As Lord Tennyson wrote in 'The Highest Pantheism',

   "Closer is He than breathing, nearer than hands and feet."

Terry

        This thing has gotten out of hand and I apologize.  I deleted
    two notes here (.24 and .28) because of a request by a noter.  What
    this does is underscores the sensitivity which most of us have when
    someone's truth is perceived as venom or an attack of some other
    sort by someone else.  What is sometimes more difficult to perceive
    is that ocassionally there is more responsibility required rather
    than blame.  I am no different than everyone else in this respect,
    as far as I can determine.  The problem could be solved by simply
    stating personal beliefs without commenting on anyone else's.  Of
    course, this makes for fairly dull dialog, at least if one wants
    the outside validation for purposes of feedback.  Barring that,
    then perhaps it would be wise to take great care in how someone
    else's feelings will be affected by whatever one says about the
    beliefs and activities someone else holds.  
    
         I recognize, as I have all along, that my beliefs are more
    "out there" than many of these participants.  I do not mind being
    questioned about them.  And, ocassionally, I do not mind being
    "challenged" about them because it allows me to either strenghten
    or change my beliefs.  If, however, I cannot answer in kind, then
    I don't want to play.  If someone asks for your opinion, then they
    "deserve" whatever the response is.  As has been pointed out before,
    personal opinions need to be stated as such.  Blanket statements
    of "truth" are only statements of that individual's truth.  Anyway,
    we already know all this.
          The point is, though I don't feel the negative ego has been
    properly defined and delineated in these notes, most of us have
    at least some idea of what one is.  Reading some of these notes
    from me in this topic will reveal some of "Frederick's" negative ego
    even though "Frederick" knows better most of the time.  One way
    to get "Frederick's" negative ego to respond is to attack either
    "Frederick" or what he prizes and values.  This was done, and he
    responded in negative ego-kind.  This, folks, is not what Lazaris
    teaches nor is it the way of the Adventurer, it is the way of the
    Warrior.  So, I will "regroup" and attempt to enter a more
    "appropriate" note later.   What this means is that I will have
    to ignore some of the respondants.  I guess this will be understood.
    
    
    Frederick
    

I'm new to Digital and to this conference and have been very interested 
in this particular NOTES file, and especially this note with it's very 
diverse replies...  I would like to add my two cents worth, without 
taking to issue any of the previous discussions... each to his/her own.

The following are a few assumptions which underlie the ideas which I 
share:

*  There are some very pure spiritually oriented individuals and groups 
   which charge for their services.

*  There are some individuals and groups offering spiritually oriented 
   services which have little if any "purity of purpose".

*  The most common arguments for charging for such services are:
   - To meet expenses
   - I have to support myself (and possibly family).  There is nothing 
     wrong with making enough money to live on if I'm helping people 
     and they think it is worth it.
   - People place more value on those things for which they paid a price.
     The more they pay, the more value they will place on that which was 
     received.

The ONLY true price for progress along the Path is steady, persistent
and sincere effort...  that is all we ever need pay.  If we choose of 
our own volition to pay for services, we have done just that, paid for 
services; that gets us no closer to our goal.  The real price which 
must be paid must still be paid after all the courses, lectures, books, 
and seminars are over, and that is the effort to do something with what 
we have learned.  We are "judged" (more accurately "measured") not by 
what we know, but by what we do with what we know.  Wisdom is knowledge 
in action.  We are measured by the wisdom, not the knowledge.

The greatest technique I have come across for attaining spiritual growth 
is, believe it or not, *ignoring spiritual growth*.  The constant 
pursuit of spiritual growth inevitably keeps our attention selfishly 
focussed on ourselves thereby defeating the purpose.  The single most 
obvious quality of someone who has achieved a significant measure of 
spiritual growth, Mother Theresa for instance, is self*less* service... 
not self*ish* service.  If you were a great Master, who would you rather 
have assisting you with your work, a Mother Theresa or a Jim Bakker?

Back to money...  There is nothing "wrong" with charging or paying for 
spiritual teaching.  But as an aspirant searching for Truth, would you 
not feel more confident in a teaching if you knew beyond a doubt, that 
it was pure?  If a teacher has *anything* to gain from his/her teaching 
it opens the door for impurity to slip in... it may not happen, but the 
door is open nonetheless.  

There are three great personality traps which allow impurity to permeate 
a teaching:  Power, Money, and Sex.  All of the televangelism downfalls 
of late can be tied to at least one, if not all three.  One or more of 
these will be influencing any teaching which is impure.  One solid 
method, then, for finding a pure teaching is to look at the teacher in 
relation to these personality traps.  If the teacher accepts any of the 
three (in association with the teaching), that teacher is opening the 
door for impurity.  I would venture to guess that the Swaggart's, 
Bakker's, Jim Jones', and Rajneesh's of the world probably started out 
with very modest, well-meaning, and relatively pure teachings before the 
glamours of the three traps overshadowed their activities.

As for the psychic down the street charging $50 - $100 for a reading...
The psychic, in order to run a business, which it is, must make the 
customer feel that they got their money's worth... or worse, the psychic 
knows that regardless of what is said, the payment will be made.  How 
many have you heard of who told their customers things they *didn't*
want to hear? No doubt very few. The majority of the things we need to 
enhance our journey on the Path are the very things we *do not* want to 
hear; they are the obstacles to our growth.  The cute little things we 
may hear about who we were in a past life generally only serves to 
glamourize the personality, again focussing the attention on the little 
"self" and undermining our purpose for searching.

The example of the psychic may sound like a negative scenario which 
doesn't do a lot of people justice, and that is true; but it supports 
the point that with the money goes the fertile ground for impurity. If 
the psychic supported him/herself in the marketplace and offered their 
psychic services to sincere seekers at no charge, where is the room for 
impurity?  If they *really* wanted to *serve*, they would have the 
"customer" write a check for the going rate of such a service and give 
it to their favorite charity.  This insures that the "customer" values 
the service; it maintains the purity of the server; and it helps another 
group who is doing charity work.  In this scenario everyone wins!

I apologize for the long-windedness, but it's a favorite topic on which 
I have fairly strong views (as if you couldn't tell).  I'm enjoying this 
NOTES file and look forward to further reading and sharing.  Thanks to 
the moderators and participants for the open forum.

Jeff

    RE: .28 (Frederick)
    
    Well, I hope you will not ignore me (that would be like ignoring
    a mosquito!  ;-)  ).
    
    I see you are no longer a "guest."  Welcome aboard.
    
    John M.

    re: mosquito
     
         It's funny, but I have found that when I am hot and sweaty
    and trying to find relief from physical discomforts, that is when
    I am most likely to get mosquitoes and flies to gather around (and
    usually dying in my sweat!)  On the other hand, when I have recently
    bathed and feel good physically, the buggers are off bothering 
    someone else.
    
         John, what separates you from the rest is that you apparently
    don't mind the role of the pesty mosquito.  I hope you don't get
    *yourself* swatted.
    
         Thanks for the welcome...
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    RE: Peck
    
    I'd just like to say here that a lot of Peck's income went originally
    to and still helps to support the non-profit organization he and
    a few others founded a few years ago, and this is the "Foundation
    For Community Encouragement (FCE)".
    
    Granted, he could have taken the money and run (or retired
    comfortably), and that would have been that, however he chose instead 
    to create something which is beyond his own self, and which also 
    doesn't have his own name stamped all over everything....by his own 
    design.  This is an organization, unlike the TV evangelist ministries, 
    which will not fall apart should something happen to him somewhere on 
    down the line.
    
    I'm also a Lazaris fan and have no problem with the amount charged
    for the books, tapes, etc.  I went through the first of the meditations
    using the tape, and for the very first night in 4 years was able
    to go to sleep without the help of medicine (which I take for
    migraine prevention). I'm now looking forward to a possible way
    of getting off this medicine completely because it has opened up
    new doors inside which will help me to control my migraines to a
    point where hopefully, eventually, I will no longer need the medicine
    at all.  How can one begin to put a price on this?  I can't.  I
    have taken back power that was mine all along, but just didn't realize
    it was mine for the taking.  Lazaris 'helped' me to realize this, 
    and for this I will be forever grateful.  (Gratitude 101)  (;^)
             
    This isn't meant to be a 'Lazaris testimony' by any means, and there
    are certainly enough tapes of this kind around that I may have been
    able to get one for a lot less money to do the very same thing.
    
    For what it's worth.
    
    Cindy
    
                                                       

    
    
    Hi,
    
      To me its a matter of CHOICE.As we journey through eternity,we
    have so many choices we can make,each one,adding to our experience.
    I believe that as we progress,we will make wiser decisions for our
    self development.I cannot do everything in this life,so,I must choose
    what i want to do.If i believe something is worth doing,then,I will
    do what it takes to experience it.The questions i would ask myself
    would be:
         1.Is it important enough,and,if so,am i willing to pay the
    price?
    
         2.Even though it could be good for me,is there anything that
    goes against my personal standards,that i could not accept?
    
    I always go by how i feel inside.Whether it is a positive or negative
    feeling.If it makes me feel bad,then i say it is not good for me.If
    it makes me feel good,then i proceed with caution.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

    
    
    An important part of personal growth is the process of looking at
    ourselves and taking responsibillity for what we find there.  The
    term used today is "owning".  This is a very private and personal
    experience.  However, I for one am very grateful for those who
    have played a part in my life, either through classes, seminars,
    books, tapes, brief talks, a look, a touch, arguments, confrontations,
    rejection, total acceptance, and love; by providing me with just
    the words I needed to hear, the experiences I needed to experience,
    to move me along my path.  To me it's not important whether I've
    paid $300 to attend a seminar or just took a book out on loan from
    the library.  If there has been something of value passed along
    to me, than I will always be grateful for having had the opportunity
    and privilege to have been able to partake of it.  Yes, the answers
    are within but we are all in this together.  I think it is important
    to remember that the key you are looking for may very well come
    from someone or something else besides yourself.  
    
    Carole
      

         I thought that this might be interesting to some of you:  the
    night before last I was given an article on Lazaris out of a newpaper
    called "The Light Connection" (from San Diego.)  Herewith are some
    reprints from the article (which was an interview with him by the
    reporter, a person named Steve Hays.) (July, 1988)
         I will make much use of the elipsis, since the article is long
    and I think I can make the point without going into the obviously
    missing detail.
             *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
    "...there is truth in the statement that all paths lead to
    HOME"..."that perhaps there are as many paths as there are people."
       "What's important to realize is that it is not the technique
    that produces the results.  We suggest the technique, whether it
    is body work (whether pysical massage or healing with light) or
    dietary considerations, or meditative work (whether that's passive
    meditation, sitting with your eyes closed, or active meditation,
    such as T'ai Chi and various other forms) is not what produces the
    result."...
        ..."THe differences-the results-come within the consciousness,
    not the technique.  Therefore, when you as an individual are ready
    to grow, you will look around and you will grab onto whatever
    techniques are available, and those will be the ones that work.
    That is, if you are ready to make some sort of major breakthrough
    in your reality, Steve, and you look around and all you can find
    is a book on how to be a successful person in an unsuccessful world,
    well then that's what's going to be..'By golly, it's this book and
    the steps I followed and the techniques I used.'  If you look around
    and there's a body worker or there's a gestalt therapist or there's
    a humanisitic psychologist or there's a tea leaf reader, it almost
    doesn't matter because when you're ready to grow nothing is going
    to stop you.  Nothing is going to keep you from making progress."
    ...
    ...
    ..."Are there certain common denominators?  There are certain-how
    do you say?-threads or currents that are important."...
    ..."The first is that whatever technique you use-body work, dietary,
    meditative-needs to have a way in which it turns you inward."...
    ..."Secondly, each person does need to find a way, as we say, to
    'clear the garbage.'..." ..."there is a lot of garbage you collect
    in your unconscious and subconscious mind.  You need to find a method
    to clear that, to find a way to get rid of the beliefs that have
    been given to you, that you've accepted without discernment, without
    thought.  You need to find a way to deal with the attitudes that
    you're holding.  Even if those attitudes seem unbeknownst to you
    or without your understanding, they need to be cleared.  You need
    to do something about your thought patterns and the feeling patterns
    that you're carrying.  You also need to look at the way in which
    the choices you make and the decisions you make are formulated,
    and indeed at what those specific choices and decisions are."...
    ..."Thirdly, a system of growth needs to be a system that returns
    power to you. "..."If your therapist, guru, master, a meditation
    facilitator takes your power, you are stumbling in the dark listening
    to noise.  If you're giving power away to a system or a person rather
    than gathering power for yourself, then it becomes a problem.  It
    always has to.  A system of growth has to be a system whereby you
    are gaining not other people's power, but gaining an understanding,
    a perspective and use-of your own power."
        "Fourthly, the system, whatever system of growth it is, must
    give you a way to fight.  And we use the word-it might surprise
    some-but we use the word very specifically.  ...  In dealing with
    life, there are obstacles that you deal with.  Everybody has them.
    Whether those are phsycial, emotional, mental or even spiritual
    obstacles, you create those obstacles for the purpose of overcoming
    them, to learn how to overcome them.  You need a system of growth
    that is going to teach you how to "fight" in the positive sense
    of that word.  You need to be willing to overcome those obstacles,
    not just to give in, not to fall over, not to collapse.  Do not
    "surrender" in the negative sense.  Do not give up.  Learn to fight
    in the positive scope.
         You may become first, perhaps, a Warrior, in that way.  The
    way of the Warrior is something that is very Atlantinean, very familiar
    with your growth pattern.  Ultimately, you will become the Adventurer.
    Nonetheless, we would suggest both are fighters in their own way.
    One, in that sense, through confrontation; the other, through
    encounter.  Both are fighters; neither gives up and rolls over.
    Yes, a valid dance with music [he used music in other parts of this
    interview where some of the ellipses are above] teaches you how
    to fight."....
    ...
    ...
    ..."Fifthly, a sense that is important at the core of any system
    of growth is that it must allow you to open up to a power that is
    greater than you.  It can be a part of you.  We're not suggesting
    that it always has to be something that is separate from you, but
    you need to open up to a power that is greater than the 'you' that
    you are dealing with on a day-in and day-out basis.  Maybe it's
    opening you up to a power of a Higher Self, or to a Future Self,
    or to a Spiritual Self, or to a God or to a God/Goddess/All-That-Is
    (as we suggest). "...
    ..."The sixth quality that is important in any growth pattern is
    not only in the way that it opens you up to a greater power, but
    also in the way that it opens you up to a greater sense of productivity
    and creativity.  Productivity means that whatever you do, you learn
    more about yourself. "...
        ..."-but rather a system that allows you to generate or inspire
    conception and perception.  For ultimately, you see, that what
    creativity is.  When you look at growth it needs to be a system
    whereby your productivity and your creativity is potentially 
    increased.  Whether you do it or not is up to you, but it must be
    potentially increased."
         "Finally, a system of growth, whatever it is, begins with a
    wisdom of your inner self and moves to a vision of your greater
    self, your Higher Self, or the future potential of where you can
    go, of whom you can become.  Therefore, as a system begins by seeing
    who you already are inwardly, it culminates with seeing who you
    can become outwardly.  A system of growth should turn you inward
    and then bring you back out into your world-into the world-new."
         * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
         On another note, in our local Sunday magazine section
    ("California") there was an article on Sylvia Brown this past
    Sunday.  She is a fairly well-known, popular, and respected
    51-year-old-psychic.  The article indicated she charges $300
    per HALF-hour and has an income of nearly $500,000 per year.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    
    RE: 35  Frederick
    
    Thanks for taking the time to enter the article.  I've begun to
    deal with the issues of claiming my own power, so the information
    was very timely for me.  And it was basically free!!!! :-)  As I said
    in my reply a few back, guidance and assistance can come in any
    form and others in your life can be the knowing or unknowing 
    couriers of it.
    
    Carole

               
    	I recall (from when I had cable) that there was an advertizement
    for a "consciousness raising kit" of sorts that worked by using
    positive context subliminal reprogramming. Now, I happen to believe
    in this technique, and I was suprised that it was being offered
    commercially...for $295.
    
    	For the money, you basically got a book and the (std?) 6 cassette
    tapes, which you were supposed to listen to either:
    
    	1. During the day, while you worked or played.
    	2. At night, before bedtime / falling asleep.  
    
    	Supposedly, they had subliminal messages in positive context
    somehow "computer hidden" within what I'd call Muzak - the kind
    of stuff heard in dept stores. The idea was that after listening
    to this stuff, you would begin to inately feel better about yourself!
    
    	Has anyone heard of, or had any experience with this? 
    
    	Well, I'm inately suspicious of this kind of thing, not only
    because of the money/material ratio, but because I know that because
    it's subliminal, you dont really know *what* they're telling you!
    It's known that in Muzak, they throw in an occasional "buy" message
    - good for the store business. Now, if this system comes from a
    commercially run business, I'd suspect that theu could easily set
    you up for their next product!
    
    	On the other hand, it *could* be totally honest and actually
    done in the best interest of the customer. Perhaps $295 is CHEAP
    when looked at in terms of a money/results ratio. It's possible
    that their subconscious reprogramming technique could be really 
    good for many people. I *do* wonder!
    
    	Joe Jas  
    

    RE: .37
    
    Don't worry about "subliminal messages;"  If you can't hear/understand
    it, you ain't gettin' it.
    
    John M.

RE: .38 (John M.)
    
    What would we do without you John?  When there is a complex scientific
    issue, with controversy surrounding it within the scientific community
    going back thirty or more years, involving literally thousands of
    experiments and reports, all we have to do is ask John and he'll
    provide THE solution off the top of his head.  Think of all the
    money industry, the government, and various charitable organizations
    could save by skipping the experiments and just asking John instead.
    I'm sure John would only charge a small fee for the 2 or 3 minutes
    he takes to make a pronouncement. :-)
    
    [Seriously, the small piece of the literature which I have seen
    or seen summarized can be briefly summarized as:
    
    	1) Information can pretty consistently be transfered by *some*
    	   subliminal techniques.  These techniques, however, are not
    	   necessarily those being used commercially -- most of which
    	   have not been validated, and some of which are physiologically
    	   implausible.
    
    	2) Certain generic modifications seem to be subliminally effective
    	   with high but not perfect frequency.  The factors which cause
    	   it to fail completely sometimes are not understood.  The
    	   most thouroughly studied is the subliminal message "Mommy
    	   and I are One", which has a fairly high success rate, through
    	   a variety of subliminal techniques, in increasing self-esteem
    	   and confidence and therefore useful as an adjunct to many
    	   types of positive change therapies.
    
    	3) Specific suggestions (e.g., "You don't want any more cigarettes")
    	   seem to work sometimes, at times spectacularly, but frequently
    	   (not always) have no effect at all under controlled, double-blind
    	   conditions.
    
    What all this comes down to is that I doubt if there is too much
    to worry about from secret messages -- they are likely to have no
    effect, though they may have some short term effect if they are
    subconsciously perceived as relatively innocuous.  The chances that
    truely objectionable subliminal stimulii would have much effect
    seems very, very low.
    
    						Topher

    
    Topher,
    
    He probably read it in the Skeptical Inquirer.....
    
    (;^)
    
    Cindy

re: .39
    
>    What all this comes down to is that I doubt if there is too much
>    to worry about from secret messages -- they are likely to have no
>    effect, though they may have some short term effect if they are
>    subconsciously perceived as relatively innocuous.  The chances that

You're talking exclusively about subliminal _verbal_ messages, right?
The essence of television advertising is to throw _visual_ messages
(images that have strong emotional associations or symbolic meanings)
at you so fast that your intellect bearly has time to cut in.  Some
of the verbiage or dialogue added to these commercials makes little
sense in and of itself, but does reinforce the visual imagery.  Even
printed advertising strives for this effect, but television, because
of the rapid-fire pacing and very short duration, makes the message
almost subliminal (in the sense of evading conscious critical faculties).
							paul

	How fitting, somehow, that a topic that began as a digression 
from somewhere else, should be found a few notes later in it's own 
digression....

	On subliminals;   The various hypnotic and advertising techniques
		only have a few effects.   You are more likely to buy
		a product you recognize, so most advertising only seeks
		you to associate the name with the product.   People can
		easily reject unwanted suggestions, whether consciously
		or unconsciously.  (You can't be *brainwashed* by
		subliminals.   Brainwashing requires stress, and a
		physical situation that totally overwhelms the ego.)

	However;  Many people miss the greatest danger of mass media;
		If you fill up your time with trash, that trash
		takes up your good time.   You'll never get it back.

	On the price of enlightenment:  It's free, in monetary terms.
		In real terms, it can cost everything you have.
		The greatest teachers of mankind can be found in
		the library.   If you miss and check out the wrong
		book, it costs you only a little time.

	On the price of seminars;  It's expensive.   But many of the
		greatest *living* teachers are now giving weekend
		seminars.   Picking the right seminar can be hard.
		Picking the wrong seminar can be an utter waste of money.
		I'd rather buy land, myself.   Good luck.

						Alan.
    

RE: .41 (paul)
    
    > You're talking exclusively about subliminal _verbal_ messages,
    > right?
    
    Nope.  That's not where the differnence between what I am talking
    about and what you are.
    
    Subliminal techniques, properly speaking, refers to the use of
    techniques where things occur which are below the perceptual
    threshholds at which information is passed up to the conscious
    mind for attention.  Information which is to faint, or mixed with
    too much sound, or presented too quickly is subliminal.  Its
    these effects which "subliminal tapes", supermarket "don't steal"
    sound systems, and some advertising attempts to make use of.  It
    was principally this, verbal or visual (or for that matter tactile,
    I guess) attempts to make use of.
    
    Advertisements have three purposes: to convince by rational argument
    and providing information (little used), to set up name recognition
    and familiarity with the product, and to build positive associations
    with the product (e.g., associate the product with sports stars,
    with sex, with being suave, with cute animals, with parties,...).
    Recently, any subtle use of the last technique has come to be called
    "subliminal" since its positive effect is subconsious (if it is
    conscious it is really the first technique -- no one said that the
    information had to be true).  Some of it -- the use of subtle symbols
    (e.g., the sexual symbolism in some of the perfume adds -- I love
    the overhead shot of the shaddow of a plane moving across a swimming pool
    full of water at the end of which is lying a woman sunbathing, her
    spread legs facing the pool and the approaching shadow; someone
    spent a lot of time reading Freud), and the juxtaposition of look-alike
    objects (e.g., a long sinuous line before the word EXplosion)
    approaches the true subliminal, but don't really cross the line.
    
    I dislike all informationless advertising, especially such pornography
    as associating one of the most addictive, harmfull drugs we know
    with good health and sports, and beer advertisement directed at
    preteens (who do you *think* Spuds is directed at -- dog trainers?).
    I do, as you may note, however, admire the skill and creativity
    of much of it -- and most of it (some of the exceptions noted) is
    harmless -- it is *only* setting up associations, after all, not
    pot-boiler-fiction-hypnotic commands.
    
    Salesman, politians, and religious leaders have been talking fast
    for centuries.  Saying something, verbally or visually, then changing
    the subject before you have time to think about it, is an effective
    way to sell something.  But it is an order of magnitude away from
    the subliminal -- where you don't just not question the message
    but don't even know it is there.
    
    						Topher