Conference hydra::dejavu

>    How 'bout we open a topic for you philosophical buffs?

How about checking out the PHILOSOPHY notes conference instead? I do not recall
the node it is on, but check out easynotes to get the location.

-Joe

    Just ask me, any time.  I like playing with ideas more than almost
    anything.  *Almost!*
    
    This file has a lot of philosophies in it.  Anything in particular
    for which you are looking?

    
    Re.0
    
    I'm interested!  I've been over in the Philosophy conference and
    find that it really isn't geared for the mere beginner (which I
    am), and the responses can tend to be a bit lengthy and hard to
    follow at times (they can be a verbose lot! (;^).  On the other 
    hand, it is a good place to participate if you've actually taken 
    philosophy courses or are more than a dabbler.
    
    What's it all about anyway, Alfie?
                                                                           
    Cindy

The "Magic Mirror" is those qualities which you reject about yourself as they 
are reflected back to you by those around you.

This is a CYOR attitude, in that, once you realize that your perception of  
another's attitude is based upon those values that you hold, you must take 
responsibility for your perception as it relates to your own reality; if you 
want the people around you to change, the best thing to do is to change 
yourself.

This is also known as "projection".  Since you reject certain qualities of the 
Self, you *project* them on to other people.  Each of us contains every human 
quality; the ability to love, to hate; to help live, to help die; to go, to 
stop; to laugh, to cry; et cetera.  We possess these qualities to differing 
degrees, depending upon circumstances.  If I repress my hostile feelings, 
people around me will grow hostile, either toward me, or toward other 
people/things.

I could expand upon this philosophy, based upon which direction any of you will 
find of interest.

    RE.4
    HI, I'd love to hear more about the Magic Mirror! So here's my
    question, if we change the perception of ourselves and others
    change around us as a result, are they really changing as a result
    of our attitude "or" is our own perception of them changing and
    therefore they may not have changed at all. in other words is
    what we think we see what we get or do people actually react
    differently to us when we change our reality of them.
    whew! I hope the question is reasonably clear...
    Fran
    p.s. what is CYOR?
    

    Re. 4
    
    I'd like you to expand on "if I repress my hostile feelings, people
    around me will grow hostile, either toward me, or toward other
    people/things."   I don't quite understand what you mean.  What
    happens if I repress love?  
    
    Does this mean that this person I lived with for 20 years was angry
    day and night because of _my_ repressed anger/hostility?  What happens
    when you _project_ love, yet are repressing anger?
    
    I don't even know if I'm making sense here...:-)
    
    Thanks,
    Charlene

    I think what is being said is; if you find a trait distasteful in
    yourself you will be more sensitive to it and see it in others.
    (and see it more easily)
    
    Stan

    re.7
    I have seen how this is true that you see your own flaws magnified
    in others however what I am confused on is in .4 which is saying
    that when you change your perception of yourself (correct the flaw
    you find in yourself) others around you will change and what I don't
    understand in this is if those around you "actually" change or do
    they still have the same flaw that you saw originally but can no
    longer see it because you have eliminated it within yourself.
    Fran
    

re; < Note 671.5 by BPOV09::GROSSE >

    HI, I'd love to hear more about the Magic Mirror! So here's my
    question, if we change the perception of ourselves and others
    change around us as a result, are they really changing as a result
    of our attitude "or" is our own perception of them changing and
    therefore they may not have changed at all. 

I haven't yet read the other three replies, but here goes.

Either/or; maybe both.  If I change an attitude, and I notice that the 
reactions of those around me are different, perhaps it is because of my change 
in attitude; i.e., I am perceiving them differently.  If I am perceiving them 
differently, it does not *necessarily* mean that *they* have changed; however, 
if they notice a change in me, they may change the way they act toward me, 
which is a type of change.  Some may go as far as to contemplate the change in 
me, and this *may* lead them to instigate changes within themselves.

    in other words is
    what we think we see what we get or do people actually react
    differently to us when we change our reality of them.
    whew! I hope the question is reasonably clear...
    Fran

Yes, it is as clear as it can be, considering the complications that are 
involved in the subject matter.

    p.s. what is CYOR?

Create Your Own Reality!    

    RE.9
    You explained that very well, thank you. 
    Now I have another question ( i must say that this particular
    aspect of human nature has always interested me so I have a lot
    of questis but I will try to keep them down to a dull roar) 
    anyways, I have noticed that accusations made are not necessarily
    true about the other individual, e.g. if I say "so and so is 
    such a chronic complainer" It may very well be that "I" am the
    chronic complainer and so and so is void of this flaw. If that is
    the case how is my own flaw reflected back from a source that
    does not exist?
    Fran
    

re; < Note 671.6 by KRYPTN::GERTZ "BuTRflysRFree" >

    I'd like you to expand on "if I repress my hostile feelings, people
    around me will grow hostile, either toward me, or toward other
    people/things."   I don't quite understand what you mean.  

If I feel hostile toward A, but I can't really come to terms with my hostility 
for some reason, then I decide to remain mellow and avoid that over which I am 
hostile in my dealings with A.  I then notice that A is easily aggravated by me 
and is nit-picky, and I feel that A is being hostile, or else A starts speaking 
or acting in a hostile way about/toward others and I am there to witness.

How I think this works;  In your own mind, you're repressing that hostility, 
but little things you say and do, of which you are not even aware, slip through 
on a daily basis.  A picks up on "something", and reacts.

    What happens if I repress love?  

Good question.  I don't really have an answer, except to share personal 
experience; as a teen, I was really, painfully shy and repressed.  When I had 
an object for my passions and affections, I thought I was doing a great job of 
hiding it, but I would stare at the person, unaware of how obvious I was.  
Pretty soon, everyone was figuring it out, and I ended up, embarrassed, and 
usually quite sad, as I was pretty "nerdy"; my experience with repressing love, 
was heartache.  (Sometimes I'd experience the cruelty of other people, too.)  I 
don't know what that says about magic mirror, but I bet we can Philosophize on 
it... ;-)
    
    Does this mean that this person I lived with for 20 years was angry
    day and night because of _my_ repressed anger/hostility?  What happens
    when you _project_ love, yet are repressing anger?

Projection is placing qualities that you have in yourself, but reject about 
yourself, on to another person (who may or may not actually have those 
qualities...intentions are difficult to comprehend, sometimes).  I will assume 
that you mean "send out" love, as in, doing it consciously.

When you *live with* someone, the magic mirror takes hold much more strongly. 
(This is true for marrieds, roommates, lovers who live together.)  You loved 
someone who was often angried (at you?); did you fear expressing yourself 
because it might make that person angrier?  Did you keep yourself from saying 
things because you didn't want a blowup?  If so...the other person probably 
sensed this, and it fueled that person's anger.  (Weird but true; a lot of 
times, your roommate will get angry in hopes of arousing a similar passion in 
you!  If he/she doesn't succeed, BOOM!)
    
    I don't even know if I'm making sense here...:-)

It's an abstract concept!  Hard to translate ideas into words, here...

    Now I have another question ( i must say that this particular
    aspect of human nature has always interested me so I have a lot
    of questis but I will try to keep them down to a dull roar) 

Roar away! ;-)

    anyways, I have noticed that accusations made are not necessarily
    true about the other individual, e.g. if I say "so and so is 
    such a chronic complainer" It may very well be that "I" am the
    chronic complainer and so and so is void of this flaw. If that is
    the case how is my own flaw reflected back from a source that
    does not exist?
    
*You* see it in that person because you are *projecting* on them. If a friend 
gives you feedback like "No, so-and-so isn't a chronic complainer", then 
reflect within.  As a matter of fact, when something really gets under your 
skin so much that it makes you want to scream, it's usually triggered from 
within!  (If you start practicing this, you will notice that you become more 
humble.)

Humbly yours,
The_girl_who_is_bugged_by_(I'm not going to tell what!  embarrassing...)

    Meredith, on the topic of CYOR, it seems to me to be a pretty powerful
    concept.  On the surface, it says a lot about the cause(s) for a person
    being the way they are ('cause they chose to be that way!). 

    The concept also seems to have what might be considered to be an
    'escape clause' in that if you create it, you can re-create it in some
    other form. 
    
    Given this, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that I should
    be able to make any number of rather significant changes in my reality
    system by the simple expediency of consciously willing it.
    
    What do you (and others) see as the ground rules for CYOR?
    
    I feel that, with the exception of some things, I should be able to
    change pretty much about my reality as I choose to.
    
    As corrilaries to this, I suspect that:
    
        o   Some parts of my reality system were just picked up or
    	    developed along the way.  I should be able to change these
	    things around as I desire.
    
        o   Some parts of my reality were chosen for specific purposes
	    by my higher self, and changes to these will either be
	    difficult, or will have ramifications that I will need to
    	    consider and perhaps later compensate for.
    
    	o   Some parts of my reality are agreed upon as a condition of
    	    being on earth (no Johnny, don't change that mountain into
    	    a goldfish!) and are, more likely than not, not subject to
    	    change. 

    Comments or ideas?
    
    Kak

         I do not have time to reply in any depth at this moment
    to any specifics here and, in addition, I do not wish to repeat
    much of what has already been written this past year, so, to 
    that end, I will just make a reference to note 358 which started
    out as a "dispute" over creating of ones own reality.  Additionally,
    there are a few other topics wherein the concept has also been
    discussed/bantered.  I suggest "homework" before pursuing further
    here.
     
     
    Frederick
    

    It would seem then that we not only create a reality of ourselves
    andproject it on others but also that we can create entire situations
    and find people who will fit the playing parts we need in order
    to create a life situation for ourselves. For example, if we feel
    that every body hates us then we will find people who certainly
    will hate us as their perception of the world maybe that everyone
    is contemptable. It would work equally in reverse if we perceived
    ourselves as lovable then we will attract those who are loving
    individuals.
    The intriguing part of all this is how people with oppposing 
    perceptions are actually "repelled" by others, meaning that
    if you perceive yourself not to be one who is dumped on then
    those who enjoy dumping on others will stay clear of you when
    they discover this. I wonder if it is a concious feeling or do we
    pick up on others who do not fit the role of our own reality and
    thus avoid them.
    Fran
    

re; .13;

>    Meredith, on the topic of CYOR, it seems to me to be a pretty powerful
>    concept.  On the surface, it says a lot about the cause(s) for a person
>    being the way they are ('cause they chose to be that way!). 

Yes.  It sounds so simple, doesn't it, but it is *so* complex.  Many folks 
don't realize that they are the way they are because they are choosing to be 
that way.

>    The concept also seems to have what might be considered to be an
>    'escape clause' in that if you create it, you can re-create it in some
>    other form. 

Yes.  But we seem to have a value placed on consistency.  Those who act on 
whatever value system is perceived by them to be the best one for the situation 
often find themselves being thought of as whacko by those around them.  
Changing one's mind from value system to value system in the course of a day 
can confuse one amidst the many things that are found to be true, or plausible.
I think there is actually a need for us to develop a value/belief system, even 
though the realm of possiblities is infinite.  It seems that, if we incorporate 
a consistent belief/value system into our lives, we develop confidence and have 
stronger ideas of who we are, as individuals, as well as to what groups of 
thinkers we belong.  The problem arises when individuals refuse to accept that 
anything other than their chosen system for dealing with reality can exist and 
work.  Opposite things can be true at the same time.  The original example of 
that is that there is Dark, and there is Light, and although only one can be 
true for you in a given moment, both exist simultaneously.  To summarize, there 
are two extremes that would be best, avoided; #1, no belief/value system of any 
consistency, so that the individual has mind-changes all the time; this is 
formlessness; #2, a very rigid belief/value system that allows for no other 
system to be correct; this is rigidity. 

    Given this, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that I should
    be able to make any number of rather significant changes in my reality
    system by the simple expediency of consciously willing it.

That is right.  But, watch out for the ramifications.  I have found that 
behaviors are anything *but* isolated.  One behavior is connected to who-knows-
*how*-many other behaviors; it's like the layers of an onion, sometimes.  They 
seem to come in groups.  One change can lead to many.  And then, of course, 
there are the Consequences Of Your Behavior.  Sometimes, we wish for something 
to be true *so badly* that we do make it true for us...but the ramifications 
are so much more awesome than we ever could have expected.  We ignore the 
warning lights because of our need/desire/passion for having what we (think we) 
want.
    
    What do you (and others) see as the ground rules for CYOR?

Ground Rules?  Off the top of my head, I would say...

I.  	Observe.

	A.  What's going on in your reality (around you) right now?  How
	    are people acting?  Draw conclusions from your observations.
	    Regard your perceptions; consider other alternatives; look at
	    your first perceptions and see if you can gain some insight
	    as to why you think the way you do, and what are your values.

	B.  At the end of the day, "step outside of yourself" and think
	    about what you did all day (observe yourself).  If there were
	    any really important things that happened, review them in your
	    mind, and try to gain a deeper understanding in to your self;
	    like I said, behaviors tend to come in groups, and there is
	    usually more than one reason for anything you did with feeling.

II. 	Think before you act.

	A.  Consider the alternative schools of thought that may have made 
	    someone react to you in a way that you don't like.  Perhaps the 
	    other person isn't really doing a direct affront to you, in their 
	    perception.  Consider why you might be taking their comment/action 
	    as a direct affront, before you respond.

	B.  Consider the possible ramifications of a major action.  How will
	    it effect the rest of your life?  Try to consider things that you
	    may not want to consider.  Try to be objective.  If you don't think
	    you're considering everything, ask a trusted friend or therapist to
	    help; to lend their expertise in the area you want to explore.

III.	Ask questions.

	A.  If you're not sure why someone said something, and your warning
	    signals are going off, ask them why they said it.  Amazing how
	    the walls that block off true communication can come down, when
	    you take the time to ask questions.    

    
    As corrilaries to this, I suspect that:
    
        o   Some parts of my reality system were just picked up or
    	    developed along the way.  I should be able to change these
	    things around as I desire.

Easier said than done.  Something that appears to be an easily changeable part 
of your life might have a lot of roots, might go really deep; changing it might 
mean changing some things with which you are downright comfortable.
    
        o   Some parts of my reality were chosen for specific purposes
	    by my higher self, and changes to these will either be
	    difficult, or will have ramifications that I will need to
    	    consider and perhaps later compensate for.

Every change has ramifications; some, not as earth-shattering as others; some 
that appear easy but later turn out to be hard; some that appear hard, but 
bring a great sense of relief when they are implemented.  Review your value 
system.  Remember what is of importance to you.  Keep the parts of yourself 
that are in accord with what is important to you.  If too many of the parts 
that you are keeping need changing, it is time to review what is important to 
you, and make those kinds of major, sweeping changes that take time and 
patience to effectively work into your life.
    
    	o   Some parts of my reality are agreed upon as a condition of
    	    being on earth (no Johnny, don't change that mountain into
    	    a goldfish!) and are, more likely than not, not subject to
    	    change. 

A mountain is a mountain...your perception of it is what you can change.  
Mountains change much more slowly than do humans.  The interesting part of CYOR 
is dealing with things that *appear* to change as fast, or faster, than do you.
In effect, you change as quickly as that which is around you...(And with that, 
I have probably opened up a new can of worms, eh??)

re; < Note 671.15 by BPOV09::GROSSE >

>    It would seem then that we not only create a reality of ourselves
>    andproject it on others but also that we can create entire situations
>    and find people who will fit the playing parts we need in order
>    to create a life situation for ourselves. 

EXACTLY!  And everyone in your life is bringing you in to their life for their 
own reasons too...see how complex it gets!?

>    The intriguing part of all this is how people with opposing 
>    perceptions are actually "repelled" by others, meaning that
>    if you perceive yourself not to be one who is dumped on then
>    those who enjoy dumping on others will stay clear of you when
>    they discover this. 

Unless you are perceiving yourself one way, but giving unconscious signals that 
you are another way.  If you perceive yourself not to be one on whom another 
can dump, yet other people seem to be doing it anyway, chances are you're 
dealing with a repression/projection.  You reject the idea of being dumped on 
so much, that you are actually, unconsciously, drawing being dumped upon into 
your reality.  Then, it's time for meditation or some type of exploration into 
the why's of what is happening.

>    I wonder if it is a concious feeling or do we
>    pick up on others who do not fit the role of our own reality and
>    thus avoid them.
    
If you're picking up on somebody, they're already in your reality.  If you then 
decide to avoid that person, and find yourself repeatedly avoiding similar 
types, your reality is trying to get something across to you, and you're not 
listening.  One of the centers at which I studied gave an example; one can move 
across the country to get out of certain personal situations, but if one has 
not yet learned the lessons attached to those situations, then one will find 
the same sorts of situations in the new place, and the same types of people to 
go with them!

Personal example; I had quite a few heartbreaking relationships, all in a row, 
with what seemed to be the same situations, same arguments, same breakup 
scenes.  I decided to deliberately avoid relationships for a while.  During 
this time, I occasionally (but seldomely) went out, kept it very light; finally 
reached the point where I was very happy living alone with my kitties in the 
apartment that always seemed to take care of me as much as I took care of it. 
You guessed it - it was at this time that I met the person with whom I am now, 
in the best relationship I have ever had with another (we were friends for a 
long time, first).  Even though he and I are together, I still have that extra 
self-confidence and esteem that was lacking in my earlier relationships.

    
    I believe there are actually 2 separate topics here, though they
    are very much tied together.  They are: 1. Projections and 2. YCYOR.
    
    I have a couple of examples which may (or then again, may not) help
    the situation. (;^)
                                                          
    1. Projections
    
    Once upon a time back in my college days, I was staying with a relative
    of mine who was about 20 years older than me (authority figure of
    sorts).  One night, I studied late at the library until 10:30 PM
    or so, and then went home after that.  I'd done this countless number
    of times, but for some reason this seemed to be different in the
    eyes of my relative.  When I arrived home, I was asked "Where were
    you?".  I replied "At the library, studying."  He said "No you weren't,
    I called there and they couldn't find you."  Well, needless to say,
    I was REAL confused after that one!  I then went into detail to
    tell him exactly where I usually sit, but then he just got angry
    and told me to leave.  For many years, I went around being horribly
    confused about what had gone on....AND the fact that he lied about
    calling the library that night (I doublechecked the bill - long
    distance).  It was only recently when I started reading psychology
    books that I realized just what had happened.  Try being around
    someone like that when you don't realize what's going on, and your
    mind can get awfully messed up after a while.....which is probably
    what happens to a lot of children of parents like this...and gets
    passed through the generations.
    
    It got worse when I was around other people who also did this kind
    of thing to me, but when I finally understood it all, I refused to 
    accept their projections (and stopped thinking it was 'all me') and 
    started to believe and trust in and believe in myself.  That turning 
    point changed my life around, and I'm not a victim anymore (a victim/
    scapegoat for all that other people can't stand in themselves).
                                 
    As Lazaris writes in his book, "Bullies need victims, but victims
    don't need anyone.  As soon as a victim realizes this - that they
    have the choice and the power - then they're not a victim anymore."
    
    2. YCYOR
    
    My husband and I had spent almost 4 years on and off looking for
    another house to live in as the other one was really small and wasn't
    in a place we wanted to raise a family.  We finally put together
    a list of just exactly what we were looking for in a house - the
    major items anyway, complete with the price range.
    
    We came back from vacation 2 years ago, and I picked up a real estate
    flyer at the supermarket.  We saw a house in the town we wanted
    to live in, and it was within our price range.  Called a realtor
    friend of ours and went to see it.  It was perfect - just what we'd
    been looking for - all the major items were there.  We also managed
    to sell our first house within 3 days as well.        
    
    Coincidence?  Perhaps.  But I don't think so.
    
    Cindy
    

    Boy, this stuff can really fry your brain!!!
    
    Anyways,
    
    re. 18
    I am confused on what you learned regarding projection, you probably
    explained it very well but it went over my head...For example my
    father is a classic example of projecting what he thinks onto
    a situation, I have never met anyone so firm on their beliefs and
    yet so far from the truth as him. He will always say things like
    "I know for a fact..." about this and that and his "facts" are
    all scrambled if they exist at all! I use to get into arguemnets
    with him, but I now I just say, "you're wrong; or that's not true,"
    and it seems to confuse him and he drops the topic which may
    have otherwise started a monumental arguement.  So, what is the
    game that someone like him is trying to play? The situation with
    your relative reminded me of something my father would do. Are
    you saying that if allowed we can become pawns in someone else's
    projections; but why would someone go to such great lengths in
    lying (as your relative did about calling you) Why would someone
    create an entire story around something and to what purpose?
    Fran
    

>    Boy, this stuff can really fry your brain!!!

Mine just gets scrambled ;-)
    
>    re. 18
>    I am confused on what you learned regarding projection, you probably
>    explained it very well but it went over my head...

I think something was left out.  My *assumption* is that, despite the fact that 
the relative did not call the library, the relative was certain that Cindy was 
lying, because he did something similar when he was her age, (only, instead of 
being at the library, like he told his parents, he was out Having Fun with a 
female interest, somewhere, or out partying with the boys) and figured that, 
if he did it, she must be, too.  If this is the case, then it wasn't projection 
in the purest sense, but more along the lines of assuming that everyone tells 
the same lies, as did he.  Projection in the purest sense is done on a totally 
sub/unconscious basis, where the person doing the projection is unaware that 
the quality he sees in another is his own quality being thrown back at him. The 
person on whom the projection is being done, is often surprised at the 
heightened emotional reaction received.

>    For example my
>    father is a classic example of projecting what he thinks onto
>    a situation, I have never met anyone so firm on their beliefs and
>    yet so far from the truth as him. He will always say things like
>    "I know for a fact..." about this and that and his "facts" are
>    all scrambled if they exist at all! I use to get into arguemnets
>    with him, but I now I just say, "you're wrong; or that's not true,"
>    and it seems to confuse him and he drops the topic which may
>    have otherwise started a monumental arguement.  So, what is the
>    game that someone like him is trying to play? 

He's probably not aware that any game is involved, at all.  Especially if 
he/she is a parent, the person playing the game will think that;

A) either he/she is really trying to do what is Best For You, or

B) the things that are Right and Wrong in his/her reality hold true for all,
   and anyone who lives outside of those definitions is bad, or hurting
   him/herself, etc., or

C) there is a level of possessiveness in which you owe something because he/
   she brought you in to the world, or whatever the reason, you owe; and are
   supposed to act as you are told to act.

>    The situation with
>    your relative reminded me of something my father would do. Are
>    you saying that if allowed we can become pawns in someone else's
>    projections; but why would someone go to such great lengths in
>    lying (as your relative did about calling you) Why would someone
>    create an entire story around something and to what purpose?
>    Fran

Meredith's Rule of CYOR #1; (I don't follow this one all the time myself, and 
when I catch myself, I feel pretty ridiculous) What matters is how you perceive 
the people in your own reality.  If you feel someone is passing their 
projections on to you, you better check and see why you have yourself in that 
position, because you, too, are there for a purpose in your own life.  To try 
and figure out another's reality, based upon what they do to us, is 
frustrating, and often, futile.  You have enough to do, just taking care of 
your own projections/mirrors/ways of setting yourself up/reality, in general, 
than to go and try to figure out another's.  The Magic Mirror is in operation 
at all times.  This doesn't leave room for coincidence.  We are magnets.  We 
attract that which we need.

Personal aside (if you've had enough, stop here!)

I was an abused child.  The bottom line is that the abuse led me to complete 
alienation from who I really was, because I was always trying to be who my 
mother wanted me to be, to avoid punishment.  Later in life, this led to me 
always trying to be who I thought everyone wanted me to be.  I developed the 
talent to be an ultimate chameleon.  I've had folks ask me, "How can a child be 
responsible for creating his/her own reality, and why would a child choose that 
one?"

When I finally found out who I was, under layers of coverup and years of 
alienation, I was not a wishy-washy version of that person.  I rejoiced; I 
appreciated; I was glad to find the core of myself underneath all I had been 
told I was.  Maybe, just maybe, I chose the childhood that I did (because I 
played right along with those games of my mother's, even though I felt as 
though I was a victim, at the time...) so that, when I found out who I really 
was, I would be that person totally, happily, embracingly.

                                                                  
    Re. last couple
    
    On the projection - from what Meredith wrote, it doesn't sound like
    a true projection in my case.
    
    As bizarre as it sounds, that was the first time I walked away from 
    such a conversation with my relative *absolutely positive* that I was 
    right - that I wasn't the one who was lying - and that this particular
    incident was a real turning point for me.  So many other times it had 
    been done to me in earlier childhood, only this person (and others) 
    managed to convince me that it was really *me*, and that *I* was the 
    one who was lying!  And when there is an authority figure around
    who is telling you what you are doing (albeit justified or non-
    justified), when you are a child or even an adult in some
    circumstances, it's hard to stand up to them and tell them that 
    they're wrong, because of the fear of punishment....or worse.
    Good ole self-fulfilling prophecy - tell a person they're a liar
    or bad enough times, and they'll eventually become that way, unless
    they are told otherwise by someone loving.                           
    
    Being a victim is what being in Hell is all about.  Not only are
    you being dominated by an 'authority figure', but then even the
    people you try to tell tend to not believe what you are saying and
    tend either to walk away from it all and not get involved, or feel
    that you must have done *something* to deserve such treatment. 
    This goes for child abuse, rape victims, battered spouses, cruelty
    to animals, etc.
                
    There's that song "Bless the Beasts and the Children, for in this
    world they have no voice, they have no choice."  It's so true.             
    
    Cindy

    re.20
    I understand very well what you mean by living like a chameleon.
    I was abused in the psycholigcal sense by my family and since I
    have seen what was happening all those years I have broke contact
    and found I am finally learning to be "me". I know that if I
    continued to see them the same accusations would persist that were
    way off the wall as each family member had a perception of me that
    was unrecognizable from who I knew deep down inside that I was.
    In this case it would seem then to me that I often created a reality
    for them to get them to stop thier taunts, mind games etc. it
    however didn't work as somehow I still played into thier hands.
    But when I finally realized that it was a no-win situation as I
    realized I was their favorite whipping girl and that reality
    was so imbedded after so many years the only way to change it, for
    me is to get away from it. Since then my whole life dramatically
    changed.
    So I'm wondering if the change of surroundings changed my own
    reality or did I change and therefore found myself attracted to
    healthier surroundings?
    Fran
    

>    I know that if I
>    continued to see them the same accusations would persist that were
>    way off the wall as each family member had a perception of me that
>    was unrecognizable from who I knew deep down inside that I was.

I lost track for quite some time of who I really was, because I thought that 
other people knew better who I should be, and sincerely tried to become *that"!

>    ...when I finally realized that it was a no-win situation as I
>    realized I was their favorite whipping girl and that reality
>    was so imbedded after so many years the only way to change it, for
>    me is to get away from it. Since then my whole life dramatically
>    changed.

I left my mom alone for a year.  When I went back to check it out, all the 
games were still there.  She's alone, again.

>    So I'm wondering if the change of surroundings changed my own
>    reality or did I change and therefore found myself attracted to
>    healthier surroundings?

I would say that something inside of your head clicked; something said, "For 
your own sanity, get out of here, so you don't have to play these games any 
more."  At least, I know that's how it happened with me.  My mom laid some 
really good lies on me that involved her side of the family and a will.  She 
thought I was still stupid enough to believe her.  She was being manipulative. 
She wanted for me to feel badly about something that I had done, for which I 
did not feel badly.  That's when it "clicked" for me.  I'd say that realization 
perpetuates change.

>The "Magic Mirror" is those qualities which you reject about yourself as they 
>are reflected back to you by those around you.

The "Other Side of the Mirror" means that you project your positive qualities, 
too, and this is important, especially when you are working on self-esteem.  If 
you see much in others that is good, that you do not see in yourself; if you 
are self-critical to the point of obliterating self-praise, then you "give away 
all of your good stuff", so to speak.

What woke me up to the fact that I was giving many of my positive qualities to 
someone who was trying to take control of me, was a meditation in which one of 
my archetypal figures came to me, looking like the lady who wanted control, and 
told me that this was my personal power; that I was projecting it, and I had 
better Use It or Lose It.  So, you can see just how important it is to be aware 
of when you are projecting your own good stuff, especially if the other person 
is aware of the projection and is using it for his or her own benefit (and 
generating his or her own Karma because of it!).

In rereading these notes, it occured to me that as we got into the area of 
being an abused child, I got off-track due to subjectivity, which I suppose is 
always there to some extent, but this was too great of an extent.

So, I'd like to reform the reply stated in .23;

>>    I know that if I
>>    continued to see them the same accusations would persist that were
>>    way off the wall as each family member had a perception of me that
>>    was unrecognizable from who I knew deep down inside that I was.

>I lost track for quite some time of who I really was, because I thought that 
>other people knew better who I should be, and sincerely tried to become *that"!

How this works;  Projection was ultimate.  We were both unconscious to the max; 
for whatever the reason, we projected entirely who we were, and because of 
that, got overabundant amounts of feedback from our realities on the many 
aspects of ourselves.  Neither of us had defined who we truly were, so our 
energies were flying all over the place, undirected; when we encountered people 
whose self-definitions were strong, we got feedback on the negative qualities 
of ourselves that we had (since we wouldn't stick to any consistent definition 
of our selves.)  From this feedback, if we were perceiving it with a conscious 
attitude, we *could have* analyzed it, made choices about it, and used it to 
help set up some boundaries and understanding for ourselves.  Instead, we 
remained unconscious for years to come, for reasons that *may* include, but are 
not limited to; receiving pity from others; enabling us to pity ourselves; 
being unwilling to take responsibility for making choices for ourselves so that 
if things went wrong, we'd have someone else to blame...I remember several 
instances in which, if there was someone else to blame for something, I would 
gladly do it, and I had a violent mother to blame for sliding out of taking 
responsibility for "bad things"...If you rethink it for a moment, as have I, we 
could have stood up for who and what we were, and in what we believed,
accepting the beatings/verbal abuse/whatever else went along with it; perhaps, 
if we had done so, the beatings and abuse would have disappeared, because we 
would no longer be participating in the game of letting other people do our 
defining for us.  Now *there's* a hard pill to swallow, but once you do, it 
brings relief, and joy.

>>    ...when I finally realized that it was a no-win situation as I
>>    realized I was their favorite whipping girl and that reality
>>    was so imbedded after so many years the only way to change it, for
>>    me is to get away from it. Since then my whole life dramatically
>>    changed.

You finally decided to take responsibility for your own reality.  You decided 
to define yourself and stop taking other's definitions of you.  Or, using the 
Magic Mirror, you could say that because you decided to define yourself, you no 
longer drew such severe criticism from others.  (Even though you left, you 
could have still drawn the same types to your reality, had you not learned the 
lesson and made some changes.)

>I left my mom alone for a year.  When I went back to check it out, all the 
>games were still there.  She's alone, again.

Now, there's a rigid platform.  I go through a lot of changes in my life; I 
come to monumental realizations, and there's my mother, Same as she Ever Was.
She's not in my life now, but I tend to run in to people who remind me of her. 
Last one was my S.O.'s girlfriend, and she got such a reaction out of me 
(internally...I kept my mouth, shut) that I wanted to slap her face.  "But 
mommy's the violent one, not me!"  Hmmm.  Other things that remind me of Mom; 
the near-blind devotion to her religion; when I was younger, it was 
Catholicism; when I was 9, we switched to Judaism...the unyielding set of rules 
and regulations that allow for no exceptions and seem Victorian (My SO's sister 
got him alone, away from me, with her husband, and told him that she did not 
agree with his lifesyle {my moving in} and dubbed him "Sinner", even though she 
had premarital sex with her husband, and they spent many nights together in 
each other's apartments)...Just like Mom did; told me not to lie, then had me 
lie to other people for her so that she could look good...so many opposites...
What kind of projecting am *I* doing?  (Physician, heal thyself!)

>My mom laid some 
>really good lies on me that involved her side of the family and a will.  She 
>thought I was still stupid enough to believe her.  She was being manipulative. 

I told you this stuff was humbling. (Humiliating?)  So, now, I have to stop, 
and take a look at how *I've* been manipulating lately.  That's the catch to 
telling people about Magic Mirrors.  You get involved in them, yourself.  They 
are hard to avoid, but can manifest great changes in your life, if you work on 
them.  People around you tend to get happier, too, and like you better, and you 
like them better, because chances are, you like yourself better.

;-)
Hanging in there,
Meredith

re; last one

>Now, there's a rigid platform.  I go through a lot of changes in my life; I 
>come to monumental realizations, and there's my mother, Same as she Ever Was.
>She's not in my life now, but I tend to run in to people who remind me of her. 
>Last one was my S.O.'s girlfriend, and she got such a reaction out of me 

Please let me reform that to read, "my S.O.'s SISTER!!! argh!!! talk about a 
Freudian slip...

Further Humbled,
Meredith