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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

665.0. "Terms, Definitions, and Meaning" by ERASER::KALLIS (A Dhole isn't a political animal.) Fri Mar 04 1988 14:03

              -<Do you understand what I'm saying?  Huh?>-
    
    If I'm talking about "absolute zero," what I'm saying would be
    different if I were  a mathematician than if I were a physicist.
    Sprinkled throughout DEJAVU are terms like "paranormal,"
    "supernatural," "psychic," and the like.  
    
    These terms sometimes mean different things to different people.
    Worse, terms as used by a specialist may differ from "generally
    understood" meanings of the term.
    
    Example:  "Black magic."  To the general opopulace, _all_ "magic"
    (as opposed to the pull-the-rabbit-out-of-the-hat stage stuff) is
    "black magic."  The distinction that some magic may be positive
    (white) and the other may be negative (black) is a distinction that's
    meaningless to them.  [Worse, some schools of magic deny there is
    a difference (I disagree with them, but that's their position).]
     Some hold the term "necromancy" to mean "black magic," or even
    "magic," where it actually means "fortelling the future through
    use of the dead (usually communications with spirits of the dead)."
    
    Even within DEJAVU, some agreements on terms may take a _long_ time
    to resolve, even partially.  The note, "What is a Witch?" with well
    over 100 responses, is a case in point.
    
    For that reason, this note.  It's to allow us to explore some of
    the terminology to make sure we're all talking about the same thing.
    
    I'll tackle "supernatural" and "paranormal" in the first response.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
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665.1supernatural and paranormalERASER::KALLISA Dhole isn't a political animal.Fri Mar 04 1988 14:2353
    The term "supernatural" has distinct overtones that the more
    "scientific" term "paranormal" doesn't seem to have.  But there's
    a great overlasp in the usage and understanding of these terms.
    
    Anything that operates in a way that is beyond our understanding
    can be said to be "paranormal" (outside or beyond the normal). 
    "Paranormal" abilities include the ability to dowse, to communicate
    directly to another person's mind, and to move objects with one's
    mind.  [Operating on the assumption, for discussion, that all these
    abilities are real rather than imagined or mistaken interpretations
    of other phenomena.]
    
    One key to the understanding of the concept of the paranormal is
    that whatever's involved is responding to a "natural" law that we
    just don't know about yet.  In time, the "paranormal" will become
    the normal.
    
    "Supernatural," by contrast, has an implication of something totally
    beyond "natural" law.  [There are some, myself included, who believe
    there's nothing "supernatural" <outside of God> -- but that the
    laws governing such things, like the classical "paranormal,"
    definition, just aren't understood yet.]  Certain things, such as
    spiritism, demonic manifestations, and various religion-based practices
    (including Voudoun and Brujeria) are catergorized thus.
    
    For some, this is a distinction without a difference.
    
    Examples:
    
    In another note, concerning demonic manifestations, we read several
    stories about the Smurl family and what appears to be harrassment
    by supernatural entities.
    
    Now, assuming the initial reports are accurate, there are three
    possible conclusions one can draw:
    
    1) The Smurl story is a hoax.  This is a "mundane" explanation.
    
    2) The Smurl story is the result of the action of demons.  This
    is a "supernatural" explanation of the events.
    
    3) The Smurl story is the result of poltergeists.  In this case,
    the poltergeist(s) could either be:
    
    3a) Mischevious spirits.  This, too, would be "supernatural."  
    
    3b) The result of unconscious psychokinesis.  This would make it
    a "psi" function (controlled, though not consciously, by a mind
    of a family member), which if we don't fully understand today, we
    anticipate we will be _able_ to understand as a part of natural
    law.  That makes it "paranormal."
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
665.2help!ULTRA::LARUwe are all togetherFri Mar 04 1988 15:3016
    thanks for starting this note...  should we have a separate note
    for discussing semantics of these definitions?  for example,
    I have difficulty in thinking that there is anything that exists
    in the universe that is "not natural."  are we making moral 
    distinctions here?   what is "natural law?"
    
    
    and i have always made the assumption that "normal" meant the
    68% under the middle of the bell curve, not restricted to something
    that we understood.  
    
    I'm not arguing whether or not the definitions are "correct;"
    I'm having difficulty with the concepts.
    
    
    	bruce
665.3What is "unnatural" law.PBSVAX::COOPERTopher CooperFri Mar 04 1988 18:1488
RE: .1,.2
    
    Steve is essentially correct but perhaps some further explication
    may help clear up some of the difficulty you are having bruce.
    
    I guess I should start out by saying that I recognize that people
    have supernatural explanations for things, but that I don't believe
    myself in supernatural explanations.  I think that there are phenomena
    (poltergeists, precognition, etc.) which probably will require some
    pretty thorough revamping of our current concepts of natural law
    to account for -- i.e., that are paranormal.  But I think that with
    work our current understanding of natural law *can* be revised and
    expanded to include these phenomena.
    
    Traditionally (and that tradition literally goes back tens or even
    hundreds of thousands of years) the world has been viewed as having
    two distinct parts.  The physical world and the mental one.  The
    physical world follows natural law -- if you drop a rock it will
    fall unless something supports it.  The mental world is viewed as
    essentially unlawful -- people have choices.  We "explain" human
    behavior in terms of motives, goals, plans and emotions.
    
    Natural law generally encompasses only that which is so familiar
    and everday that alternatives seem silly.  The less everyday (e.g.,
    lightning) is conveniently explained by creatures of power whose
    behavior is determined as human behavior is.  The effect of human
    will can have is limited by humans being part of the natural world,
    while these creatures are not so limited and thus can do what
    humans cannot.  They are supernatural.  In effect they can change,
    temporarily or permanantly, natural law.
    
    Slowly over the centuries, and acclerating in the last few hundred
    years, efforts have been made to codify and catalog natural law.
    Phenomena once attributed to the will of supernatural beings is
    now explained by natural law.  A small but significant step has
    been made towards explaining even the human mind in terms of
    natural law.
    
    But people still look to beings (sometimes to non-sentient "forces",
    but generally there is a concept of "will" there somewhere) who
    can rewrite or ignore natural law to explain things.  Frequently
    these things are clearly explainable by our current understanding
    of natural law, but occasionally they are not.  These are supernatural
    explations.
    
    I believe that demons are creatures invented by people to provide
    the sentience behind their supernatural explanations of things
    (including manifestations of ugly pseudo-personalities in their
    own subconscious).  I do not believe in demons.  I look for other
    explanations, either conventional ones (or "mundane ones" as Steve
    says) or in terms of known apparently paranormal phenomena.  I class
    demons as supernatural creatures, and therefore fictitious.
    
    I could be convinced, though, that I was wrong -- that there are
    indeed personalities, evil in human terms, and wielding strong psychic
    powers which are independent of any human personality.  I would
    not, then accept the existence of the supernatural -- of that which
    is beyond "lawful" explanation.  I would simply say that they join
    the class of paranormal phenomena, and would start to look for
    ways to include their existence in the set of laws which I take
    to describe the workings of the Universe.
    
    The same, roughly speaking applies to other types of spirits, though
    it would take less to convince me of the reality of some of them.
    
    J.G. Rhine, who I think coined the term paranormal (he certainly is the
    person who is responsible for its widespread use) seemed to have
    a paticular "structure" to the way laws are structured, but it is
    unclear (at least to me) whether he felt that this was fundamental
    or simply a matter of human perception.  We have to keep in mind
    that Rhine was a scientific dualist -- that he felt that, although
    psychology was lawful, that it was *not* reduciable to physics;
    that just as there is matter and energy there is also mind which
    is neither of these.  However, the psi phenomena he studied in his
    lab seemed to imply that mind-substance could sometimes interact
    rather directly with the mechanical universe.  Thus, when trying
    to explain things in the physical world, one generally applies
    the "normal" physical laws, but occasionally, when the other
    natural domain interacts, one has to apply those natural laws
    which are "beside" (rather than above or beyond) those normally
    used, i.e., the laws of the domain of mind.
    
    Personally, I don't like some of the implications of the term, but
    can think of no better one (e.g., "unconventional" hardly has the
    right conotations).  Its basic meaning though I am in agreement
    with.
    
    				Topher
665.4SPIDER::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenWed Mar 09 1988 01:522
    Some things have to be experienced to be understood.  Do we share
    common experiences?
665.5yesUSACSB::CBROWNThu Mar 10 1988 07:166
    	
    
    
    	yes. [breathing,eating,sleeping,ect.] also note; common
    circumstance will tend to breed common experiance, emotion,
    and response.