Conference hydra::dejavu

    My life will not have been wasted if, when exiting, I remember
    God with love. 
karl    

    The ultimate adventure... perhaps the whole reason for living...
    the only place the real answers can be found.

    Terrifying to contemplate, ultimately nothing "during," worse than
    nothing but unperceived (and therefore neutral) after (void).
    
    Arrrrg... almost makes you want to hate life for its very nature.
    But then again, the more you hate life for this, the less you want
    to retaliate against it!  [i.e., I'm not emotionally disturbed or
    suicidal, just spiritually disturbed to the utmost.  It seems to
    me that the religiously devout would want to do-themselves-in in
    droves in order to get to the next place quicker.]
    
    I have no pre-birth memory (regardless of what Shirley McLain says).
    I am a biological machine.  I will shut down eventually.  That's
    all.  How futile.  Strive to become the 'ubermensch,' to at least
    advance the species.  Thus spoke Zarathustra.
    
    Brian W.

    	Speaking of "Thus Spake Zarathustra", the HAL 9000 computer
    said in the 1968 film 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY of life that he was
    "putting [him]self to the fullest possible use, which is all I think
    any being can ever hope to achieve."
         
    	Larry
    

    Well, it might be almost like here.  As in a dream while you wake
    up and the dream continues.  Maybe one ask's: so this is what it
    is like?  And maybe there are other folks around who will answer
    in their own friendly, knowing, compassionate way "yes, and welcome".
    
    another,
    larry
    

    A pessimist looking at a glass of water 50% filled would say,
    "I see a glass of water half empty". An optimist would reply,
    "I see a glass of water half full".
    
    It is beyond human capabilities to perceive the Infinite. We
    must, as stated in .4, strive to live our lives to the fullest,
    whatever we, as individuals, conceive of "Life" to be.
    
    I prefer to think of so called "death" as a transition from
    one state of consciousness to another, as when graduating from
    high school and going on to college.
    
    The Grand Illusion of material reality can certainly lead one
    to think that life, indeed, is cruel, for we live, encounter
    some joy and some sorrow, then "die".
    
    The optimist might observe the fall season and see the leaves
    changing color, eventually falling to the ground, with their
    hosts, the mighty trees, branches barren, appearing dead - only
    to awake again in the spring ! We live, experience life through
    spring and summer, and pass through autumn, reflecting on our
    lives, with eventual transition in winter.
    
    The optimist, perhaps, sees Nature playing a cruel trick on us.
    We lose our youth, our loved ones, then pass out of existence
    forever. For what purpose ?
    
    Perhaps Life's only purpose is to experience existence. And perhaps
    the optimist will reap the rewards for appreciating the opportunity
    to have experienced Life.
    
    Nature is not wasteful. The talents and experience gained during
    the few years of mortal existence can be used again - in another time
    and in another place - maybe on Earth, maybe in another galaxy.  
    

< Note 647.7 by REGENT::NIKOLOFF "Meredith" >
                            -< The Sacred Journey >-







 I haven't thought about this in awhile.  I remenber reading Life after Death
 by Dr. Moody and thinking about the white light and all the friends that meet 
 you and yes, greet you. It did sound beautiful and peaceful. But I always 
 wondered what you did to prepare or to enrich your time spent on earth....

  And now with the help of Lazaris, and a friend I am starting to see. That time
  spent on Earth can be meaningful and happy also. I would like to leave with
  the contentment inside that I've made people smile along the way.

  Meredith II

    I hope to find that God is Bacchus, and the final judgement will
    be an accounting for every worldly pleasure we were placed on 
    earth to enjoy.  To have not partaken of such experiences or
    to prevent another from enjoying to the fullest would be the
    only accountable sins......halellulah, i'm saved......MWR
    
            * *
             ^
             U
    
    

    Lately I've been thinking of death as the natural transition between
    lifetimes.  The time to break loose of the constraints of living on
    the physical plane and get my spiritual merde together.  Although
    in the past I recall becoming agitated and fearful about death,
    this just doesn't seem to be so, anymore.

    As far as how I'd like to go, it just seems so simple that I'd go to
    sleep one evening, separate from the body, and simply not return to it
    again.  I'd prefer to avoid the auto accident, the chainsaw massacre,
    or some other more energetic means to The End.  Gak!  :-) 
    
    As my exposure to this subject increases, I'm beginning to wonder
    if death really is done alone.  Some say that other spiritual
    entities are there to help the newly decarnated spirit to adjust,
    orient, and heal.  And also to select the next lifetime.
    
    I seem to be moving away from the concept that some all-powerful
    spiritual dude is going to be judging me by a set of pearly gates. I'm
    beginning to come to expect that I'll be the one evaluating my own
    performance and making my own choices for the next time around (with
    assistance to help ensure an appropriate body/life is selected to get
    the experiences I think I'll need to grow). 

    Kak

    Well Margaret, we could have been wrong...
    
    Looks like a lot of folks have come a long was since Ouija boards
    and houses that drip blood.
    
    To paraphrase Don Genario, adulthood is when a person makes death
    his partner in life.  To my fortune, I worked in a hospital ICU
    for several years.  I was privileged to be around a few hundered
    people who passed on.  Also being around the doctors and nursing
    staff working in this area and the kind of maturity, compassion
    and real caring in this somewhat private club, brought a new
    understanding for life and those in transition.
    
    Larry

    
    My greatest fear was to pass from this life not knowing real love.
    
    Thanks to a very beautiful person who lives on the other side of
    the world, this is no longer the case because through his example, 
    he taught me what real love is all about.  As a matter of fact,
    I'm going to go out at lunchtime today and send a valentine to him. 
    
    And yes, all you atheists, there really is a God - a very loving
    God.  This God doesn't sit on a throne and judge you for every 
    little thing you've done wrong in your life.  In time I hope that
    God will find you, and you will see that God is really as close
    as your neighbor and yourself.  Don't overlook the beauty in this
    life - that is where God is.  Taking time to 'smell the flowers'
    will suddenly take on a whole new meaning.
         
    If you can managed to find the time, please read "The Sacred Journey"
    by Lazaris.  Not only are the concepts there, but they've also put
    in the steps in order to get there from here.
    
    Love, light, and God bless,
    
    Cindy
                                                                       

    I visualize the Death experience similiar to being inside a
    smoke filled night club with loud noisy music and lights and
    chatter, being vibrated by all these emotions and sounds
    and feelings, and then, exiting out a doorway and to the 
    outside where you can breath fresh  cool air and listen
    to the quiet nighttime sounds and exhale a sigh of relief,
    and ask yourself...
   
          "O.K. What's next, where do I go from here?"
                       
    
    Another Visualization I have is like taking off some tight constricting
    laced up boots that you had on four fourteen hours that day
    and finally taking your socks and boots off and putting your
    bare feet in some tall green meadow grass, and mushing your
    feet into the ground and feeling that good sensation and
    feeling like you want to dance the night away.
    
    > RE: 12    Happy Valentines Day Lazaris! I love you too Buddy!
               
    
    -Arthur
                                

        "What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the
    	 Master calls a butterfly..."
    
    					- Richard Bach
    

    Some of the things in .10 and .13 sound like the Tibetan Book of
    the Dead.  This book describes (a viewpoint of) the death experience,
    i.e. what happens *between* lives.  I seem to mainly remember that
    it is a period of reflection of lessons learned (and missed), and
    what lessons can be selected to learn in the next life...
    
    As an aside, suicide causes the lesson to be cycled again, and again...
    until you get it.
    
    The reason we don't remember past lives (consciously, day-to-day)
    is that this vast storehouse of rememberance would paralyze our
    actions in day-to-day living.  Have you noticed that as you get
    older, you get more cautious?  This could be a direct result of
    having more experiences to remember, when deciding how to react
    to a situation.
    
    So, overall, I believe that "death" is a period of reflection on
    the life just lived, comparisons to other lives, and a choosing
    of new lessons to be learned.  
    
    One escapes this cycle be becoming "enlightened" - becoming one
    with God, the Absolute, or whatever you want to call he/she/it.
    
    How you go, smoothly or violently is your karma... determined by
    your actions and their effect on those around you.
    
    evenanother,   @.@
    Larry           -
    
    
    

    
         We are, here and now, all that there is. This experience as
    we perceive only its most fragmentary outer surface is, when we
    develop our God-given power of full spiritual vision, the complete-
    ness of the Divine order from which the very very heart of our
    being is sprung. This living moment is as vibrant as any other will
    ever be, as breathless as the height of imagination will ever take
    us and as much of the heart as heart is in itself.
         Death as we think of it, as we fear it, is none other than
    a higher level of this moment. It may be thought of as "the end",
    as a transition or in any other way. It may be considered an awakening
    into a higher reality than this reality--I don't know. These to
    me are all concepts, names. In every moment things are dying and
    things are becoming. This is how life is. The message is that death
    is non-separate from this moment. As we fear death, to any extent,
    realize that what we are fearing is something in life. We are fearing
    some aspect of living, of peering behind that dark corner that
    eventually we must face anyway. 
         To climb into the heart of any such fear is to make it vanish,
    to render it powerless and to take from it all of the wisdom which
    it has to offer us. It probably is not for anyone to state what
    the nature of the death experience is anymore than for anyone to
    state what the nature of the life experience is... Each can only
    be lived.
    
    
    Roy
    (who's_probably_been_sitting_so_long_at_this_desk_that_the_blood_
     just_aint_flowing_to_his_brain).
    
    
    

I've always felt that death and beyond would be very much like the world
we are in while dreaming every night.  I think the more in touch you are
with your dreams, the better your concept of life after death will be.

		Dave

    I've answered in another topic (Reincarnation) what I think happens
    between lives, but then I have serious doubts. That was what I was
    taught would happen. What follows is what I can preceive on my own. Is
    anything else really necessary for us? 
    
    As far as I can tell we have no real information about what it's like
    on the otherside. Why?  Because none, NONE, of the tellers of the story
    have suffered brain death. All else is wishful thinking and tickling
    stories from multiple personalities.  As far as I'm concerned Seth,
    Ramtha and Lazaris type manifestations don't qualify (even though I
    really like Jane Roberts).
    
    I'm of the opinion that we'll never know until it happens so we
    shouldn't even consider the question as it is ridiculous. What ever
    happens will happen within a patterened, natural setting. We can't
    really influence it. We'll just experience it. None of our words
    will be sufficient. Further I see no requirement that we even consider
    the afterlife state.
    
    What does concern us is the present, how happy and healthy we are
    now. Fear of death is an illusion to be overcome. Be here now.

    Reply to .11, Christensen,
    
    Perhaps we should elaborate a little further on this point. Supposedly
    Don Juan taught Carlitos that consciousness dies after physical death.
    More true to the story, the Eagle consumes the consciousness of the
    individual. We'll most individuals, say 99.99%. 
    
    Consequently one who makes death their friend or partner can face the
    Void of Dissolution (The Eagle) without fear. This marks their
    maturity, a transition point between the fairytales of childhood and
    natural perspective of the adult. 
    
    It is a magic moment in time when a person can with honesty and
    integrety accept the void as a real and natural possibility. Life is
    changed after that. We see the living in a different light and
    consciousness in a different perspective. Ego consciousness then
    becomes an illusion, something not permenant, a happy happenstance. 
    
    There is an interesting parallel between Buddhist thought and Don Juans
    teachings. Perhaps our Buddhists friends could comment on that in
    another topic. 
    
    There is a psychological payment for the illusion of the ego permanent.
    There is real freedom for those that can accept the Void. To me in the
    long run, it really doesn't matter. When our brains turn off and
    die, no ego consciousness will be the condition. None of our nice
    stories about it will suffice.

Despite lingering doubts (and I have expressed some of them in 
various notes), death is the end of existence. It has been that 
way since life began billions of years ago, for all of the billions 
and billions of organisms that have ever existed. We are no 
different. We live until we die. All else is illusion. 

It is human nature to want to feel omnipotent. But we are not. 
Life is for the living. Death is the end. Morgan (-.1) urges us 
to accept the void. That is the only path to true freedom.

-bs

    And what... my friend, is existence?  
    
    Many of us have seen births and deaths.  The body is just a thing
    until that first breath and after that last.  What animates it?
    What makes it work?  What is life?  

    Reply to Note 647.23  5691::PARE 

    >And what... my friend, is existence?  
    
    >Many of us have seen births and deaths.  The body is just a thing
    >until that first breath and after that last.  What animates it?
    >What makes it work?  What is life?  

    Subject matter for another topic? Perhaps. In the past I have used the
metaphor of the larva and butterfly. I convientely forgot that what happened
to the larva is similar to what happened to us in our mother's womb. Human
death is parallel to the butterfly's death, not to the larva's transformation.
    
    Existence is. Life is. Why should we assume that something animates
life? Is this mysterious something really required to animate life. Life
needs no animation.
    
    Please let me be real honest. As a BAC I was assured eternal life. It
felt great. I knew that some more powerful force would carry me across the
abyss to a marvelous afterlife. After some years I began to realize that
the promise of an afterlife is bait for a secular trap, posed in the
religious robes of clergy. In Oriental texts it is stated that one cannot
communicate with the Tao with their minds, communication must be with their
bodies. My mind believed that an afterlife was part of the natural process
but my body said otherwise. Ego consciousness plays a game with us. It
tries to soothe the pain of knowingness of the abyss with warm, fuzzy
stories of Gods, Goddesses, and afterlives. It's been pretty much
successful over the centuries in fooling us into believing that we are
eternal beings. With my body I sense that we are not.
    
    I had more than a few OOBEs. What I failed to take into consideration
was that my brain was still alive, neurons were still making and breaking
connections. The brain may have unknown qualities but all the qualities we
know and experiment with are the properties of living brains.
    
    You know we have an example, and a rather good one at that, of an
experiment concerning the afterlife. We're still conducting the experiment
after many years, yet we don't listen to the experience of the experiment.
Harry Houdini hasn't returned to tell us of his travels. He said if he
could, he would. He hasn't.

In one way, I have to agree with Morgan, I do not have regular
conversations with someone who is dead and I havn't died recently
and come back with information regarding the subject.  Proving
an afterlife is not, for me, possible.

Then again, I don't need proof.

Argument is based on agreement.  We have to agree on the basic premise
which is we are spirit and we have bodies.  We have to agree we are
eternal, composed of a substance which has no beginning and no end and
all we can really argue about is how best to remember ourselves.

Without these basic agreements, there is no discussion.

Larry

 When I ask myself if there is life after death, I immediately 
tell myself,self I have no idea.I then act accordingly living
my life as if this life is all there is,but with a small spark
of hope that I could be surprised.


        George D. 

I don't have any proof or a particular religion that tells me that there
is something beyond this lifetime.  My belief that there is something after
death comes from somewhere deep inside myself.  It doesn't matter what any
of us including me believe, what is, is.

		Dave

RE: .24
    
    > Harry Houdini hasn't returned to tell us of his travels.  He said
    > if he could, he would.  He hasn't.
    
    Possible explanations:
    
    	1) Death is the end for all.
    
    	2) Death is the end for some, including, unfortunately HH.
    
    	3) Death is not the end but nobody (pardon the expression) can
    	   communicate from the other side.
    
    	4) Death is not the end but only some can communicate from the
    	   other side.
    
    	5) For whatever reason HH changed his mind about communicating
      	   when he got to the other side.
    
    	6) He has.  The proper code phrase *was* presented by a medium.
    	   Unfortunately, the results are considered ambiguous because
    	   of a possibility that the medium could have learned the phrase
    	   through normal means.
    
    This is an example of an experiment where a positive result has
    significance, but nothing much can be learned from a negative one.
    Despite continued attempts to contact Houdini, the experiment is
    over, and was from the moment that the code phrase was made public.
    As it turned out, even a positive result was, as it turned out,
    indefinite in conclusion.
    
    The current "hot" test is the Thouless Cipher test, and this has
    only been running a few years.
    
    					Topher

Several times over the past few years I have been regressed into past
lives.  These characters and the dialoglue with them has made a shift
in me about how I see and act in life.  Whether this is a robust
imagination or not means little to me as what I have experienced
has changed the nature of my life in a way I consider positive,
healthy and nurturing.

During those regressions, I experienced the death of those characters.
It wasn't all that bad.  Once, being run through with a sabre, I passed
quickly through a fog onto an open dark marble floor.  A blue being
was sitting off to one side and was laughing to himnself.  We had a talk
and it felt good to be around someone who throughly understood what
was going on; both with me in particular and the universe in general.
Sort of like the post game locker-room banter.

I'll stop short here as this is all I feel comfortable sharing in a
public notesfile.  If anyone wants to hear more of the story,
I'll be glad to share what I feel at the time via mail SPIDR::CHRISTENSEN

    It is my experience that people who think consciousness continues
    after death have never been unconscious.
    
    Interesting....  Everyone wonders what death is like while having
    already had the experience!  What was it like before you were born?
    Infinity travels in the positive and negative directions.  Before
    you were born and after you die is the same experience; nothing.
    
    Re: .29
    
    Now go to another past life regresser and see if you get the same
    stories.
    
    John M.

    
    	hmmm...   Well, John, I disagree with your analysis of memory.
    Most people don't remember much about being infants.  Does that 
    mean they never were?      Memeory is associational, so perhaps
    we can't all remember other states or lifetimes because those memories
    have no associational links to where we are now.
    
    	It is interesting that people under hypnosis can often remember
    events that happened when they were unconscious, under anesthesia
    or knocked out by an accident.   There is *lots* of proof
    that some sort of consciousness continues even when the ego
    consciousness is knocked out.

    		Alan.

    I was thousands of miles from my home in Colorado in June of 1985,
    when my grandmother, who lived in Rhode Island at the time, which
    was a couple of thousand miles farther from me than Colorado was,
    died.  Moments after the time of her death (which was reported to
    me later), I was in bed, sleeping (5am my time) when I peacefully
    but quickly awoke, to see a bright white energy come in through
    the sliding glass doors of the 42nd-floor apartment in which I was.
    I knew instantly that this energy was my grandmother.  In seconds,
    she translated words into my head that take me an hour to retell.
    Among the things she told me;
    
    "My body has been in pain for years.  I am released, now, from that
    pain.  I have someplace to go, someplace where I must go quickly;
    I am in a hurry to get there.  It is a wonderful place.  Feel my
    energy; it is pure love now; none of the negative moods, no yelling,
    no manipulation; these were not my true character, but rather, the
    character that the pain of my body put upon me.  Tell your mother
    (her daughter) that I love her; I do not expect her to understand.
    I love you.  I want to go onward now, for I shall become better
    than I even am now, and now is the best that I have ever been."

    The light went away.  My mother called, hysterical, about a half-hour
    later, and was shocked when I told her, that which she had thought
    would come as a surprise to me.  The timing of it was absolute;
    I wasn't sure if I believed Grandmother was actually dead until
    the call from my mother.  I do know that my grandmother's visit
    strengthens my belief that yes, there is *Something* after death;
    she was leading me to believe that it was something wonderful.
    
    I used to believe that all there was, was the Void; I used to tell
    myself the same things that -.1 is saying, about "Well, hey, it's
    the same as before you're born."  The truth is, we really don't
    know for 100% certain what it was like before we were born...
    
    just like we don't know for 100% certain what is there after we
    die.
    
    ...and so, I too, live life today, because today is all that is
    for certain.
    
    Meredith
    

                                                              
    Some of you may remember my mentioning my uncle who passed away in 
    December.
    
    Well, a couple of weeks ago I realized something that completely
    eluded me while he was alive.  Nothing spectacular about it really
    - it was more a 'quiet stream of communication' to the conscious
    of my thoughts - the kind where I was just sitting on the couch at 
    home reading a book, and all of a sudden this incredible revelation 
    came to me in a twinkling and it helped me to resolve something
    very significant in my life - and the feeling I had after that moment
    was an extremely happy one.
    
    Was it my uncle?  I don't know.  I do know, however that what was
    revealed to me after his death would probably not have been understood
    by me if he were still alive.  Perhaps even in death there is a purpose.
             
    Cindy

    I read the following in last night's Fitchburg Sentinel and thought
    this might be an appropriate place to post it,... it's interesting.
    
    "Heaven and life-after-death have always been largely matters of
    faith.  Now, however, there may be evidence to support the belief
    in survival after death.  Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, a psychiatrist,
    gained fame with her studies of people who had been clinically dead,
    were later revived, and told of having visited a place that was
    "beautiful beyond description".  
    
    Among those not fully convinced by Kubler-Ross's findings was Karlis
    Osis, research director for the American Society for Psychical Research
    in New York.
    
    The Latvian-born psychologist had studied the evidence for
    life-after-death, including Kubler-Ross' work.  He was impressed
    by it, but not completely won over.  One question kept bugging him:
     "Is it all wish fulfillment."
    
    Gallup polls had showed that three out of four Americans believe
    in life-after death.  Was the brain merely projecting these beliefs
    onto the screen of the mind at the moment of death?
    
    There was one way to find out.  If the people in Eastern countries
    who have no wish for immortality, who want to get off "the wheel
    of life" and whose idea of paradise is oblivion - not living forever
    - if these people should turn out to have the same death-bed visions
    as people in the West, that would tend to rule out the "wish
    fulfillment" theory and add weight to the testimony about life after
    death.
    
    Osis decided to go to India to check out his thesis.  What he concluded
    after interviewing hundreds of medical personnel in India concerning
    the experience of their dying patients was that there is no difference
    in the kind of death-bed imagery a person sees - whether he lives
    in India or the United States. 
    
    The basis death-bed experience cuts across cultural differences
    said Osis.  "It is the same whether one is Christian, Jew, Moslem
    or Hindu."
    
    He said the dying, whatever their religious orientation, "see a
    world of great beauty and harmony."
    
    Mary

> The basis death-bed experience cuts across cultural differences
said Osis.  "It is the same whether one is Christian, Jew, Moslem
or Hindu." <

Here's a question the article didn't address:  After members of the "oblivion"
faiths were brought back, did they go back to their same religions?


John M.

    I don't know about that one John.  The article didn't say.

    re .37 (Mary):
    
    >I almost forgot to mention, February McCall's magazine has a nice 
    >article about Near Dear Experiences.
     
    Especially relevant arount Valentine's Day. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    Sorry; I couldn't resist. ...

    Most definitely!
    Sense_of_humour
    or hummour
    or ommmmmmmmmm
    Anyways, Shah speaks of mini-deaths or ego deaths or giving up belief
    systems which no longer support the expanded person.  I used to
    be in fear of someone reading my mind.  Poof..I don't even read
    the newspaper so why would I even think that someone would even
    have an interest in  what "I'm" thinking.
    
    Surely we will die.  If there will be anything left over, I wish,
    in all my heart, it be worthy of such an event ;)

    
    
         Ever since I was about 3 years old I've been uncomfortable
    with the idea that there could possibly be a state of non-existence.
    I used to ask "how could there just be no more me?" Well the way
    I look at it is that, to begin with, everything is *here-and-now*.
    I can never make the statement that "this is the future" or "this
    is the past" because it is always now, and everything that exists
    is a part of this *now*. In the same sense I can never make the
    statement that "I no longer exist", obviously. My own existence,
    therefore is a presupposition that I can always make as is the fact
    that I am here and that this is now--no matter what condition or
    level of consciousness or other that I may find myself in. 
    
         Given this, I only need wonder what the nature of the after
    death state is, not whether there is an after-death state. But I'm
    wondering if death is maybe more of an *end* than we would ordinarily
    think--if, perhaps, when we die, we die simultaneously in all of
    our past, future and *probable* lifetimes. The actual afterdeath
    state would then be even more mysterious than ever.
    
    
    Roy
    

    
    I have had many thoughts on the above.....Some people I've questioned
    seem reluctant to answer because I think in our culture we haven't
    been taught to really accept death.  I've observed alot of people
    and I really believe they think they are immortal. 
    
    I guess that's why some of us turn to religion....We really want
    to believe that there is something waiting for us after we have
    completed our mission here on earth.  
    
    Having studied Astrology for some time, the subject of reincarnation
    also fascinates me.  I think I could concede to the fact that
    we have to reach a level of perfection before we could even think
    of going on t something better.  How do you perceive it???
    
    
    

Curious as to why two notes under this topic were set hidden?

    They probably Ended. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

re: .43

The notes were set hidden at the author's request.

		Dave