Conference hydra::dejavu

    Chakras are the various "psychic" centers in the body, each one
    responsible for various physical and metaphysical functions in
    our beings. The autonomic nervous system, responsible for 
    respiration and heart rate (and other functions), is a prime   
    example.                            
    
    Each psychic center responds to a certain color, musical note and
    chemical element.
    
    If developed too fast, or in an incorrect manner, problems can result,
    not the least being frustration and misunderstanding of their true
    purpose. Be careful, use your good judgement.
  
    Now, there are various ways to develop them. I suggest doing some
    research in this area. There is NO fast and quick method when it
    comes to doing this. It is a serious undertaking requiring years,
    if not lives, of research, practice and experimentation.
    
    Visit a good library or metaphysical book store - and be aware that
    there are certain organized avenues of learning which are here to
    help the aspiring student.
   

        I don't know if you tried doing a search or not...I did, three
    times, in fact, and never did come up with what I know the search
    should have come up with.  Anyway, there have been references to
    the chakras in various topics.  If you are persistent in looking,
    I am sure you will find the information that most of us are probably
    not too excited thinking about having to retype.
        Chakras can be thought of as somewhat symbolic, i.e., there
    is not a place you could point to and say that that is where it
    is.  They are energy centers.
    
        CHAKRA    CENTER      COLOR    NOTE    FUNCTION
         first     Anal        Red      A       Security needs
         second    Genital     Orange   B       Pleasures
         third     Solar Plexus Yellow  C       Power
         fourth    Heart       Green    D       Love
         fifth     Throat      Blue     E       Expression
         sixth     Eyes        Indigo   F       [Vision?--I forgot]
         seventh   Top of Head Violet   G       Communing w/"God", etc.
    
    As I have understood it, most of us have enough to do in getting
    through the first three.  Probably most in this file are essentially
    through the first.  The majority (again, probably) are "sticking"
    in either/or 2nd or 3rd, i.e. we are excessively concerned or
    unreconciled with our pleasure/fun or power/control. Once past
    the first three, however, we can begin to function what could be
    called "on a Christ level," or, coming from love.
      
    As with all processes (which can be deemed to have seven steps)
    the fourth step is the most critical.  The usual procedure is to
    either begin again at one or go on to five (from the fourth.)
    So, as .1 indicated, this can be looked on as being the reason
    that "balancing" the chakras can be delicate and "necessary" for
    completeness.
    
    The chakras also tie in to CHI energy and to meridians and/or
    pressure points.  Since I do not consider myself an expert in
    all of this, I will leave the descriptions out at this time.
    
    Where it really comes in handy is when you have a problem in your
    life.  For example, if you have an ulcer, that is the third chakra
    area.  So, you could look at things that have to do with power,control,
    manipulation,domination, etc. in your life.  Whether you are doing
    it to someone or someone is doing it to you, etc.  The cure, then,
    is to change the beliefs in that area and, as an aid, using music
    written in the key of C and surrounding yourself with yellow lights.
    However inept this example is, I think it can give you the gist
    of the relevance of understanding chakras.
    
    Frederick
    
    

    
    	I really enjoyed reading "Joy's Way", a book which has a lot
    of information on chakras.   There are usually 7 main chakras listed,
    along the spinal column, associated with 7 endocrine glands.
    But some writers also say there are others at the knees, hands,
    feet or other places.
    
    	Alan.

    
    	I've noticed a correlation right away to the "Levels of
    Consciousness" described in Ken Keyes' "Handbook to Higher
    Consciousness"...Hmmmm, ah yes, things tie in together nicely!
    
    	Also, I'm very curious as to the relative tuning of the pitches
    "ABCDEFG" to actual frequency values. I'm sure by now the A=440.xyz
    hertz - as a "standard" - has some significancy, or a different
    value would be assigned to "A". However, as Paul Winter of the Paul
    Winter Consort has pointed out, the musical "key" that nature sings
    in is D flat! Based on this, would it be more correct to map "ABCDEFG"
    into a D flat scale, to obtain the natural frequencies of the chakras?
    
    	As a musician, I play in many kinds of musical keys, but I dont
    think "D flat" is one of them! I think I'll try it soon.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Thank you, one and all.  This sounds like something I want to know
    more about and I appreciate the information and the suggested readings.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Jill

    THERE IS ALSO CONSIDERED TO BE AN EIGHTH CHARKA POINT ABOUT 6 INCHES
    ABOVE THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD, ALTHOUGH IT IS SELDOM MENTION.
    
    A BOOK CALLED CRYSTAL ENLIGHTENMENT DISCUSSES THE VARIOUS POINTS
    AND HOW TO USE CRYSTALS TO HEAL THEM.
    THE BOOK MAYBE FOUND AT A LOCAL GEOLOGY STORE.
    
    good luck 
    
    mark

    
    Eighth chakra above one's head?  A halo perhaps?  What color is
    it?  
    
    (;^)

    White.  Regarding the layout previously presented, I'd heard
    differently, and there seems to be some confusion as to which color
    corresponds to which chakra.  I'd heard this;
    
    Red, Genital
    Orange, Stomach
    Yellow, Solar Plexis
    Green, Heart
    Blue, Throat
    Indigo, Third Eye
    Violet, Crown
    White, above the crown, Spiritual
    
    as for musical keys, check out the Suites of Stephen Halpern;
    Spectrum Suite, Zodiac Suite (colors and signs go together).
    
    And remember, D flat could also be C# ! ;-)
    
    Re-iterate; _Joy's Way_ *is* a good source of information.
    
    Be careful using _Crystal Enlightenment_.
    
    Also, a good book with *excellent* pictures to meditate upon is
    titled _Energy Ecstasy; Your Seven Vital Chakras_ (I think that's
    the title?).  The white chakra is not included in this book.  It
    seems that there is a difference in beliefs as to where chakras
    are, and the corresponding colors/areas.
    

    Phil Ward, I have seen and heard many versions, but never one like
    that.  Thank you very much for the time and effort involved in
    conveying that information.  If one wanted to know more, how would
    you suggest for one to go about acquiring information?
    
    Meredith

	The best way is to get in touch with people in your area who
    are practising Sahaja Yoga, who can answer all the questions you
    might have and, more important, help you get self-realisation (see
    the other articles I referred to), feel the vibrations, and start
    understanding all this from your own experience. I append some
    addresses in North America. Any of these people would be glad to
    have you go round to see them at one of their meetings. 

	Meredith, in CXO you are probably quite a long way from your
    nearest centre, so I'll send you some more information hardcopy and
    by email. 

	For more details about local meetings etc, you could also ask the
    sahaja yogis on the net; 

	East Coast US	Paulo Su	MLCSSE::Su
	West Coast US	Greg Wolfe	DECWRL::"buddha@ucscb.UCSC.EDU"
	Australia	Chris Kyriacou	SNO78C::Kyriacou
			Ariane Kaub	SNOC01::Kaub
	Austria		Helmut Eichert	VNABRW::Eichert
	Munich		Eva Lenk	Muntra::Translation
	Switzerland	Phil Ward	Shire::Philip

	    Keep in touch!

		Phil

  West Coast:

  Dr. Vinod Worlikar
  17031 South Maria Ave.
  Cerritos, Los Angeles  CA   95071
  t. 213/926-4070

  David Dunphy (San Diego Centre)
  6276 Lakewood St.
  San Diego,  CA   92122
  t. 619/546-9379

  Patrick Hughes   (Santa Cruz Centre)
  3320 Main St.
  Soquel, CA   95073
  t. 408/476-9126
 
  Ursula Doring    (San Francisco Centre)
  191 Canal St. #23
  San Rafael, CA   94901
  t. 415/459-0123

  East Coast:
  
  Christine de Kalbermatten (New York Centre)
  96 Shadow Lane
  New Rochelle, NY 10801
  t. 914/636-4406

  Bhaskar & Linda Kharde
  869 Washington Ave.
  Pleasantville, NY 10570
  t. 914/769-3991

  Steve Kirby   (Boston Centre)
  27 Ashland St.
  Arlington Heights, MA   02174
  t. 617/646-7547
 
  Pat Haynes   (Maine Centre)
  12 Fenway Rd.
  Cape Elizabeth, Maine  04107
  t. 207/761-0100

  Ohio:
  
  Bala Kanayson (Ohio Centre)
  10351 Arbor Hill Lane
  Evendale, Ohio   45241
  t. 513/563-6438

  Jay Harris
  717 Broadliegh Rd.
  Colombus, Ohio   43209
  t. 614/237-1297

  Kansas:
  
  Nancy Craig
  226 Fillmore
  Topeka, Kansas   66606
  t. 913/351-6440
 
  Texas:

  Betty Hubbell
  715 Crossroads
  Houston, Texas   77079
  t. 713/531-7458

  Mangal Singh Dhillon
  1800 Hemphill
  FT Worth, Texas   76110
  t. 817/924-2191

  CANADA:

  Lori Hynek     (Vancouver Centre)
  1540 Taylor Way
  West Vancouver,  BC     V7S1N4
  t. 604/922-3382

  Jay Chudasama    (Toronto Centre)
  11  Gulliver Rd. #608
  Toronto, Ontario   M6M2M3
  t. 416/247-5749

  Mona Lacroix   (Calgary Centre)
  523 Maidstone Drive N.E.
  Calgary, Alberta   T2A4B6
  t. 403/248-3196 

    I would like to recommend a book that I think would be very helpful
    to you.  The name is Wheels of Life by Anodea Judith.  She spent
    about ten years researching this book and even refers to some mentioned
    earlier in this topic.  It is a very comprehensive study.  She has
    also studied physics, psychology and just about everything relevant
    to give an excellent cross section of views, methods and beliefs.
     The book is fairly recent so it may be hard to find.  Try a store
    with a large selection of so-called "occult".  Or write to the
    publisher:
    
       The Llewellyn New Times
       P.O. Box 64383-320
       St. Paul, MN    55164-0383
    
    In general many of the ideas in this book conflict with what was
    written earlier in this topic, but I thought you'd like to get as
    many possible viewpoints as possible, since you only have one set
    of chakras and you don't want to mess them up.  I guess you'll
    know which system is best for you.
    
      Also I have read that there is also a chakra below the body. 
    This may be related to the Goddess Shakti, the female force
    while the one above is related to the God Shiva, representing
    the male force.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Guy
    

>>     What are chakras?	The node of my VAX 2000

>>     Where are chakras?	In merrimack, 2nd floor near pole 2J4

>>     What do they do?		Spin with the energy of Kundalini, 
				The VAX however uses pulses of electricity

>>     How do they work?	there are many books, but it's recommended to
				discover them through meditation and 
				contemplation, you may see the VAX anytime, it's
				quite ordinary.


	Sorry Jill, couldn't resist ;^)


/John

    John,
    
    At last--the search is over.  Thanks for the nice, definitive answers.
    
    Jill
    

       Tonight while paging through the NEW AGE CATALOGUE (mentioned
    in notes 494.8 and 711) I happened upon a nice little description
    of CHAKRAS (p. 18) complete with a simple chart.
    
    Frederick
    

I've been doing some meditation recently involving
chakras. All well and good except where are they!
I feel confident enough vertically but where are they
in the horizontal plane? If chakras are located along
the spine - does one visualise a point there?

My mind goes into an intellectual tailspin trying to
guess where to concentrate.

Would anyone like to commit themselves to a list of
the usual seven with suggestion of locations?

John D.

RE: .16 (John D.)

Let me see if I can remember... Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

From lowest to highest:

#    Glandular system
-    ----------------
1.   reproductive organs   
2.   cells of lydig
3.   ???
4.   thymus gland          
5.   thyroid gland
6.   peinal gland
7.   pituitary gland       

One of the best books on the subject is by C.W. Leadbeder (sp).  Can't
recall the title.  I'll look it up.  If you're interested, I can enter
a table from the book that gives a good explanation of all seven.  

Terry

Re: 17, Terry

        Thanks for the quick reply. However, it raises more
        questions than it answers. :-) 

        1. How widely accepted is the correspondence between
        physical organs and the chakras? 

        2. Where are those organs? (I know, look it up, :-)) 

		> 1.   reproductive organs   
		Well! I know where they are.

		> 2.   cells of lydig
		???

		> 3.   ???
		??? ???

		> 4.   thymus gland          
		Heart chakra. But aren't chakras usually depicted as
		being on a line central to the body?

		> 5.   thyroid gland
		Throat chakra. Which side? Or both? At the same time?

		> 6.   peinal gland
		Between the eyes, just inside the skull?

		> 7.   pituitary gland       
		Deep in the brain somewhere. (This is the one 
		depicted usually as 'sitting' on top of the head
		isn't it?)

        > One of the best books on the subject is by C.W. Leadbeder (sp). Can't
	> recall the title.  I'll look it up. 

	I'd be interested.

	> If you're interested, I can enter
	> a table from the book that gives a good explanation of all seven.  

	I *am* interested. Thank you.

John D.

re: .18 

I'll look up the info and enter something tonight.

Terry

re: .16

The physical body is comprised of the dense physical which we normally 
see, and the etheric which can be seen by some but usually isn't by 
most.  The etheric "double" as it is sometimes called is where the 
chakras are to be found.  The chakras or centres of energy are located 
along the spine and in the head of the etheric portion of the physical 
body and have correspondences in the organs and glands of the dense 
physical body.

There are thousands of centres, but the *major* centres are as follows:

     Base of the Spine
     Sacral 
     Solar Plexus 
     Heart 
     Throat 
     Ajna (between the eyebrows)
     Head (or Crown)

These are simply labels which are related to parts of the body for the 
convenience of relation; the actual centres are located along the spine 
in the vicinity of these organs.  It is a common error to think that the 
centres are actually in these organs.

Meditation through concentration on individual centres can be very 
dangerous.  Unless we *know*, through our own intuition, where these 
centres are located and the nature of their functioning, it is 
inadvisable to use them for meditation.  The reason for your 
"intellectual tailspin" is that meditation on the centres is not an 
intellectual activity; the two don't go together.  Meditation on the 
*meaning* of the energy of a particular centre can be valuable, but 
concentration on the centre itself can be dangerous due to the 
(possible) over-stimulation which can result.

If the intuitive understanding of the centres is not yet developed, the 
only time such meditation on the centres should done is under the 
supervision of a teacher who has the wisdom and is willing to take on 
the responsibility of such instruction.

Information on the centres is widely (and sometimes even accurately) 
available.  The only reason for my responding is that I have seen and 
experienced the effects of over-stimulation; and if there is a remote 
possibility that I am correct, why push it?

Jeff

The book I referred to is _The Chakras_ by C.W. Leadbeater.  A good book
for basig knowledge of the seven major chakras.

Here's the table I mentioned (from page 7)

*****

English Name          Sanskrit Name   Situation
------------          -------------   ---------
Root or Basic         Muladhara       base of the spine
Spleen or Splenic     *               over the spleen
Naval or Umbilical    Manipura        at the navel, over the solar plexus
Heart or Cardiac      Anahata         over the heart
Throat or Laryngeal   Vishuddha       front of the throat
Brow or Frontal       Anja            space between the eyebrows
Crown or Coronal      Sahasrara       top of the head

* The spleen chakra is not indicated in the Indian books; its place is taken
by a centre called the Svadhishthana, situated in the neighborhood of the
generative organs, to which the same six pedals are assigned.  From out point
of view the arousing of such a centre would be regarded as a misfortune, as
there are serious dangers connected with it.  In the Egyptian scheme of
development elaborate precautions were taken to prevent such an awakening
(see _The Hidden Life of the Freemasonry).

*****

The connection to various endocrine glands is talked about in a book,
_Meditation, Gateway to Light_ by Elsie Sechrist (ARE).

Charka     Associated Gland
------     ----------------
Root       Reproductive glands
Spleen     Lyden (look it up...)
Naval      Adrenal
Heart      Thymus
Throat     Thyroid
Brow       Pineal
Crown      Pituitary

From what I've read, the connection between the actual chakra and the
its associated gland is like that of a spiritual channel allowing energy
from our etheric body to enter our physical body.  The medical world
admitedly has a lot to learn about the functioning of these glands.

As mentioned in the last note, read up before messing with your chakras.
I've heard some pretty nasty stories about folks who prematurely awakened
a center or two.  There is a natural progression from low to high that
shouldn't be fooled with.

Hope this helps.

Terry

    A very good book on the subject is Wheels of Life - A User's
    Guide to the Chakra System by Anodea Judith.  Also, the
    Lazaris tape on The Power of the Chakras is good and has
    a powerful meditation.
    
    Ro
    

	Well, thank you for your replies. I'll be 
	trying to get hold of a copy of some of those
	books. 

        And now I'd like to explain a little bit more about
        me, my position and what I meant by 'intellectual
        tailspin'. Picture me, sat meditating. I know I'm
        supposed to put my attention somewhere for this
        particular exercise. That 'somewhere' is usually
        drawn as a coloured spot somewhere over the spine of
        a person. But the picture is *always* shown from the
        front - not the side. So, I feel inside myself for a
        location - but nothing seems to fit. So, what now? I
        give up or find a teacher, perhaps.

        Where are the gurus/teachers? This is an age in
        which more and more people are, according to the
        wisdom of previous ages, are in need of a teacher or
        guru. But there *can't* be enough eventually, if we
        assume that more people and more people are seeking
        information and perhaps are capable of some sort of
        'enlightenment'. And anyway, I would appreciate a
	teacher at the moment and there isn't one around 
	that I can recognize.

        This seems to be an age of information, par
        excellence (for example DEJAVU), so perhaps it's
        time now to seek ones own development without the
        physical presence of a guru. It's an age where it
        seems okay for seekers to continue in 'normal' life.
        To seek development in the context of society
        instead of outside of it. 

        For most of my life I've 'played with matches' -
        it's a good way of learning things. Sometimes I've
        got my fingers burnt, but I've learned things and
        I've certainly learned...caution. And I've approached
	chakras with caution. 

        About 10 years ago, I was part of a small class who
        meditated together and who, sometimes, meditated on
        chakras - specifically to raise kundalini. Nothing
        happened for me. About five years ago I encountered
        Sahaja yoga (they particularly try to raise
        kundalini). I found it...interesting but again
        nothing happened for me and I eventually found the
        other people who were involved to be too intense for
        my taste - they reminded me of certain 'born-again'
        Christians - they had stopped using their reasoning. 

	So, I've approached chakras with caution. But without
	fear. And, for want of an expert I've done it myself
	and with the help of books (and perhaps DEJAVU :-)).

	After 37 years, I have gained a certain perspective on life.
	A perspective which says, don't be foolish, don't be afraid
	and finally - if something terrible happens - so what!
	The dew-drop slips into the shining sea.

	So, I'll continue experimenting, and taking care, and
	I'll keep on trying to understand more than I do now.

John D.

    
    From what I've read in _Wheels of life_, the Ajna Chakra is associated
    with the pineal gland, which is located in the center of the head.
    The Third Eye is the servant or function of the Ajna Chakra and
    is located on the brow between the eyes.
    
    Guy
    

    
re:.23 and a notes on Sahaja Yoga.

	If one can achieve the connection or the union with the Divine
	through one's deligent study from books.  I think we won't need
	those prophets, teachers.  

	Many seeker found the truth but cannot stick to it. Our ego seems
	alway managed to block the way by blowing up to become bigger.
	So you found the teacher, and you abandoned the teacher. Such is
	the drama of human being: when Rama was in this world, people 
	believed in the coming of Krishna; when Krishna arrived, people
	said they believe in Rama. Moses was here and everyone was waiting 
	for Christ; but at Christ' time people turn back to Moses...How much 
	longer are we going to let our Ego lead our life?  Where is our 
	faith?

	Well, the knowledge of Divine was not meant to be comprehended
	through our limited brain activities.
	
	Sahaja Yoga  meditation is a means of awakening the CONNECTION with
	one's deepest self.  When you acquired that CONNECTION you have to
	work on it yourself.  The rising of cool breeze, the pneuma, the 
	chaitanya has to be experiencing  by yourself only.  For me, it 
	took me one and half years to obtain that unmistakable sensation.  
	I have verified, felt and got that sensation described by the 
	scriptures.  What this boiled down id that the difference of Sahaja 
	Yoga with other Yoga is that you can prove it yourself.  Sahaja Yoga 
	begins at all other Yoga stops.  Sahaja Yoga is from illusion to 
	reality; it is 	not a yoga which is from illusion to mystic.

	Last month, I met a British yogi who admit that he has not gotten his 
	vibration after four years' meditation. But he is positive that he 
	will get it sooner or later. I have to admired his positive attitute.

	All of the people who have met the remarkable lady Shri Mataji got
	their self-realization and felt the cool breeze and vibration
	sensation at her presence.  But the truth is that if you do not
	meditate to establish that position you can lose it again.  The
	Kingdom of God can slip away from us as fast as we can imagine.

	To some people this could mean too intense for them.  The temptation
	of non-sensical habits in this society are far too great, too easy 
	for people to resist and fall into the pit of darkness again.

	Once you have cleasened the Vishuddhi charkra, you will feel the
	vibration flow in you hands. You become the witness, the quality 
	of Vishuddhi, which Phil has talked about in 614.9.

	You may not feel anything at the begining when you practice the
	the thoughtless awareness meditation in Sahaja Yoga.  Which could
	be the results of your conditioning or from the pursueing of the
	false teaching in the past.  Nevertheless, you should have 
	patience with yourself. Give yourself time to cleanse the Chakras
	within you through meditation.   When the Kundalini rises within
	you, she has to pass through the narrow gate - the Sushumna (the
	center channel, parasympathetic nerves system), and pass through 
	each chakra from Mooladhara, Swadishthan, Nabhi, Anahartha,
	Vishuddhi, Agnya and finally above Sahasrara. The only way to
	prepare this path is to lead a dharmic virtuous life as all the
	scriptures and saints suggested.  All the Sahaja Yogis of five
	continents now bow to dictates of all the real Gurus, prophets  
	and Masters.  So you think this is too intense for you?  For the
	benefit of Christian, the "narrow gate" was mentioned in the 
	Matthew 7.13 and Luke 13.24.

	This is the actual process of Spiritual reborn.  Once you have
	achieve that you are blessed and protected by the Creator of this
	universe out and out. The by-product of that is you will have a
	healthy body; not only you can heal whatever problem you may have 
	before, you can also heal the other people. You become collective
	consciousness.  You become micro-cosmic, part and parcel of the
	whole.  You become a drop of the ocean.  All of this you can prove
	it to yourself.  Until that happen to you, forget the rest of the
	world, forget the other people.  I wonder is this too much of 
	similarity with the so called "born again Christian" ?

	Is the fact of Agnya Charkra is ruled by Christ too much of reality 
	to you?  Today, the majority of Christians have the same Agnya as 
	Moslims or Buddhists, Hinduists, Jews...  That is the problem for
	all man-made religions - such is the result of Ego of human being 
	that we believe we can organize for God!  No matter what religion
	you believe in, your Kundalini have to pass the Way, the Gate.
	That also has been proved in many people who got the experience of
	Kundalini awakening.

	We can not raise our Kundalini through the study of a book. It has
	to come through someone who is authorized by God, who is not anyone
	like Dick, Tom or Harry. It has to come from a special incarnation.
	And that person has to prove it to you! A simple statement such as
	"I believe..." is not enought.

	Best regards,
	Sarvesh

    Re.25         
    
    Hi Sarvesh,
    
    Might another way of saying this be 'to gain access to the Higher
    Mind'?   And perhaps might the experience of True Love be the best
    catalyst?
    
    Thank you.
    
    Cindy

    re: .25 (Sarvesh)
    
         I understand what you are saying, and can acknowledge that
    it speaks much truth.  The part I would have difficulty with is
    the part that says that you can only achieve something via
    someone/thing else.  Not only is that giving your power away,
    it speaks poorly of our ability to take dominion over our own
    egos...the negative ego which says "I don't deserve, I'm not
    as enlightened as, etc." or the one that says "I am better than
    everyone else and..."  That we search and discover teachers is
    not a reason for doing their will.
    
    Frederick
    

Re.26
    
	I am afraid that we may have difference in those terms.
	I found even "reality" in this notesfile has many different
	definitions.  For me, "reality" means "Truth".  There is no 
	such thing as true reality or negative reality.  	
	Higher Mind and True Love are very abstract terms also.
	For instance: the discussion of "unlimited love" of God;
	human being does not have such thing as "unlimited", therefore 
	we can never understand the unlimited (infinite) love of God,
	Neither can we understand His forgiveness is unlimited.  For we 
	live in a very limited sphere.	 In consequence,  we live in 
	guilty and still believe we have sin.  We withdrew into the 
	darkness of self-pity. We lost our self-respect as sons of Man.	
		

Re.27

>         I understand what you are saying, and can acknowledge that
>    it speaks much truth.  The part I would have difficulty with is
>    the part that says that you can only achieve something via
>    someone/thing else.  Not only is that giving your power away,
>    it speaks poorly of our ability to take dominion over our own
>    egos...

	No, I don't think you understand what I had said.  
   
	What power do you have besides your freedom of choice?
	Can you raise your Spirit within you by yourself?

	I only stated that you can achieve reborn of your Spirit 
	(within you) through meditation.  That is the hard work you 
	have to do by yourself.  But, before that someone very special 
	has to pass down the flame of self-realization. That special
	person does not take anything away from you or trying to sale you 
	anything.  That special person, Shri Mataji, only wanting to give
	you something we have been trying so hard to get.  Otherwise, you 
	would be still searching to be union with God in all hardships
	- including those yogas of strenuous posture of limbs and body.  
	
	We have to rise in Spirit; we have to go ahead to achieve it our
	own. 
	
	Regards,
	Sarvesh	    
    

 re .16, John:
    
    Since I have access to several detailed drawings of the chakras, I will try
 to impart the gist of these pictures to those who wish to more accurately
 visualize chakras.  Although I have a number of Hindu and Buddhist renditions
 of the chakras, they usually show only rough correlations with anatomical
 features.  However, I also have color drawings of the chakras by a 17th century
 mystic Georges J. Gichtel, and extremely detailed anatomical drawings created
 in 1927 by Rev. Charles Leadbeater.  These drawings are reprinted in a book
 called "The Roots of Consciousness" (Random House, 1975), by Jeffrey Mishlove.
 (BTW, this book was created in partial fulfillment of the first PhD degree
 ever awarded in parapsychology.)

  First of all, the word "chakra" means "wheel" in Sanskrit.  The chakras are
 wheel-like vortices which appear on the _etheric_ body which is the part of
 the aura closest to the skin.  This etheric body is said to be a web of light
 beams which is in constant rapid motion (sort of like a TV which has lost its
 vertical hold).  An interesting description of the etheric body is provided
 by Carlos Castaneda's description of people's egg-shaped luminous bodies
 constructed from filaments of light.  In addition to the seven traditional
 chakras, there are also many smaller vortices within the etheric body.

  All of the chakras originate at points along the spine, and each has a stalk
 which reaches the periphery of physical body where they appear on the etheric
 body.  The chakra origination points are colocated with the spine, and the
 chakra stalks pass through certain neural ganglia and internal organs, yet the
 chakras are not _physically_ determined by these anatomical features, although
 they may influence the physical body.  Along the spine in the etheric body are
 the three primary nadis (or channels) called the ida (right side), pingala
 (left side) and sushumna (center), from which the chakras actually originate.

  The chakras are said to be perpetually revolving wheels of etheric 'light'
 about 2 inches in diameter which glow dully in an ordinary person.  When
 awakened, they can become blazing whirlpools which are significantly increased
 in size.  The chakras resemble lotus flowers and are subdivided into what
 appear as lotus petals.  A specific number of petals is associated with each
 chakra, and this number is assigned remarkably consistently across all schools
 which teach about chakras.  Etheric energy is thought to flow into each chakra,
 or actually each chakra may be thought of as 'feeding' on etheric energies
 of particular 'frequencies'.

  The seven chakras are typically numbered in ascending order of where the
 chakra origination point leaves the spine, as follows:

   1:	The first chakra originates near the base of the spine at the coccyx.
	The stalk is only an inch or two long, and is directed backward and
	downward such that the flower end of the chakra would rest flat
	against the ground if a person were in a sitting lotus position.
	This is the only chakra which is directed towards the back.
	The lotus for this chakra has 4 petals.  Astrologically this chakra
	has been associated with the Moon.

   2:	The second chakra originates at the lumbar region at the level of the
	bellybutton.  The chakra stalk is close to horizontal, and heads toward
	the front of the body, however it is skewed off to the left hand side
	of the body by about four inches.  The lotus for this chakra has 6
	petals. Astrologically, this chakra has been associated with Mercury.

   3:	The third chakra originates in the lumbar region about four vertabrae
	above the second chakra.  The chakra stalk heads forward and is aligned
	with the center of the body, yet the stalk swoops down through the
	intestinal cavity and ends up slightly _below_ the bellybutton.  Thus,
	while the origin of the chakras is in a nice neat order along the spine,
	the outer position of the third chakra is actually positioned slightly
	below the second chakra.  The lotus for this chakra has 10 petals.	
	Astrologically, this chakra has been associated with Venus.
 
   4:	The fourth chakra originates at nearly the level of the shoulder blades,
	but it swoops down through the cardiac plexus and ends up about two
	inches left of center at breast level.	The lotus for this chakra has
	12 petals. Astrologically, this chakra has been associated with the Sun.

   5:	The fifth chakra originates at the base of the skull.  The stalk is
	aligned with the center of the body and heads slightly downward to end
	up at the adam's apple.  The lotus for this chakra has 16 petals.
	Astrologically, this chakra has been associated with Mars, and more
	recently also with Uranus.

   6:	The sixth chakra originates from a point in the center of the skull
	at eye level, very close to where the pineal gland is located.  The
	chakra stalk heads straight ahead and slightly up to a position slightly
	above the eyebrows.  The lotus for this chakra has 2 petals.
	Astrologically, this chakra has been associated with Jupiter, and
	more recently also with Neptune.  This is also referred to as the
	third eye.

   7:	The seventh chakra originates in the center of the brain about a half
	inch above and in front of the sixth chakra, very close to where the
	pituitary gland is located.  The chakra stalk heads straight up to
	the pinnaccle of the skull.  This chakra is said to be the "thousand-
	petalled lotus", yet it is actually composed of rings containing each
	of the other six lotus flowers starting with the four-petaled first
	chakra in the center, and ending with the 2-petaled sixth chakra on
	the outside.  Thus this last chakra has the same number of petals
	as the sum of all other chakras combined, or 50 petals.  Astrologically
	this chakra has been associated with Saturn, and more recently also
	with Pluto.

					   right   left

   So, as a crude diagrammatic			_7_		top of head
  summary, the chakras might be			 |
  represented something like this,		(6)		eyebrows
  with the nadis along the spine		 |
  represented by the center line,		(5)		adam's apple
  and each chakra drawn at the			 |
  position of the lotus flower			 |(4)		heart
  when looking at the body from			 |
  the front.					 | (2)		bellybutton
						(3)		just below belly
						 |
						_1_		coccyx


  Although there are many interpretations as to the effects and influences of
 each chakra, I typically think of the chakras to be very roughly associated
 with the following energies:

			1. Survival
			2. Sex
			3. Power
			4. Compassion
			5. Self-awareness
			6. Psychic-awareness
			7. Cosmic-awareness

  Since I was a psychology major at college, it has always interested me to
 view psychology itself as progressing through these chakras.  The first chakra
 may be pre-psychology and could correspond to Darwin's survival theories.
 Clearly Freud was hung up on the second chakra by attributing all psychological
 problems to sexual causes.  Freud's successor Adler was similarly hung up,
 yet this time everything was attributed to problems with acquisition and
 maintenance of power and thus the third chakra.  Jung then began by providing
 theories based upon love and compassion (or lack of it), and later took a
 broader view including self-awareness through dreams, and psychic-awareness
 through archetypes.  Other more recent schools of psychology including Perls'
 Gestalt therapy and Roger's self-actualization theories have headed towards a
 broader understanding of wholistic self-awareness and thus the fifth chakra,
 and parapsychological theories are now attempting to clarify psychic-awareness
 and the sixth chakra.  This is admittedly a fairly rough analogy, yet it still
 holds interest for me.

  It is my own feeling that it is the fifth chakra which holds the key to
 mastery of our personal lives.  The lower four chakras are the 'personal'
 chakras, and the sixth and seventh chakras deal with more collective and
 universal influences.  It is the fifth chakra which is the intermediary
 between the personal and collective consciousnesses.  The fifth chakra is
 considered to non-judgementally 'monitor' the functioning of the lower four
 chakras.  When this fifth chakra function is operating smoothly, people can
 clearly recognize their personal and potentially conflicting urges for
 survival, sex, power, and love, but the objective fifth chakra can keep people
 from identifying their 'self' with any of these lower urges.  It is this
 detachment and a subsequent reorganization of the various 'lower selves'
 into a more coherent and consistent higher self which is the key to mastering
 the fifth chakra.  Once this energy pathway is activated, the energies of
 the highest two chakras become accessible.

  As has been indicated by others, in traditional schools the chakras are
 typically 'cleansed' roughly from the bottom up.  The energy (called Kundalini)
 is considered to reside 'curled up' at the base of the spine.  This energy is
 then awakened, and progresses up the nadis to manifest through other chakras.
 The four lower chakras may be 'cleansed' at the same time, yet cleansing the
 lower four is typically a prerequisite for the fifth chakra, which is then a
 prerequisite for the sixth and then seventh.  This standard process affects
 only the ida and pingala nadis until eventually the seventh chakra releases
 the flood gates of cosmic energy which flows down through the sushumna nadi.

  It is only recently (through the Dejavu and Holistic conferences) that I have
 encountered the Sahaja yoga technique which proposes that through contact with
 an 'enlightened' being who already has their 'candle lit' you can have your
 own 'candle lit'.  I have interpreted this to indicate that the seventh chakra
 is opened and energy is transmuted directly into the sushumna nadi right from
 the start (although I may be wrong).  The other nadis and chakras are then
 gradually cleansed through meditation by utilizing the extremely pure energies
 which are now flowing through the sushumna nadi. The energy connection must be
 maintained through meditation and practice or it will 'close up' again.  This
 Sahaja yoga method is a fascinating new idea for me, and while I don't like
 the idea of relinquishing control for my further spiritual development to
 someone else, if they've got a lit candle ... I could use a light.

						Todd

    
    	   I had a bowl of Fruity Chakras for breakfast this morning.
    	About an hour after eating them I got a headache, a backache,
    	and my liver started itching.  Maybe it was my spleen... I'm
    	not sure.
    
    	 - Greg

Todd; Thank you for your insights.  I have not seen Chakras written out before 
as you have written them out.  I welcome your inputs eagerly.

Re: .29 Todd

Well, I'm knocked out. A marvellously detailed and
comprehensive reply. Thank you very much.

Has anyone out there with direct, personal experience of
chakras/aura anything to say about Todd's entry?

And anyway, thanks again. John D.

PS. I'd appreciate a light too - but here I am trying to
rub two sticks together anyway. And trying not to burn 
my fingers. :-)

    
    Wow!  What a day!  Todd, I have often made many of the same
    associations concerning the chakras and at least Freud and Jung.
    I am a big fan of Jung (in case no one's noticed), and I really
    like the symmetry of his ideas.  I also am very interested in chakras
    though my only source material has been on indefinate loan for the
    past year or so.  If anyone is interested in some chakra-related
    music I would recommend the following:
    
    The Seven Rays    _Todd Rundgren__Another Live_
    
    A Treatise on Cosmic Fire    _Todd Rundgren__Initiation_
    
    
    Guy
    

I read somewhere that Edgar Casey claimed the words to the Lord's
Prayer are related to the chakras and that it is supposed to be used to get
them ready for meditation...  I forget the correlation between them.
Particular phrases speak to particular chakras.  I can look it up if
anyone is interested.

Terry

    re: -.1
    
    Go for it.  We're listening...
    
    @      <-- that's a very tense listening ear
    
    
    
    Guy
    
    
    

re: last two @'s

    I'll look it up tonight and enter it.

    Terry

re: .36, .37

Here's the Cayce scoop on the Lord's Prayer and it's relationship to 
the chakras (spiritual centers).  This is from the book, _Meditation 
and the Mind of Man_ by Mark Thruston.  As usual it is entered without
permission...  (The *'s around words indicate the author's italics.)
 
***

The readings suggest that the Lord's Prayer describes the proper 
movement of energy in meditation.  This prayer can be used as a tool 
for the mind to ensure that this optimum condition is achieved.  In 
the following passage from the readings we find the suggestion that 
the Lord's Prayer was given by Jesus specifically to relate to the 
opening of the spiritual centers.

Q-22.  Does the outline of the Lord's Prayer as placed on our chart
have any bearing on the opening of the centers?
A-22.  Here is indicated the manner in which it was given as to the 
purpose for which it was given; not as an *only* wat but as a way that 
would answer for those that sought to be - as others - seekers for *a* 
way, *an* understanding, to the relationships to the Creative Forces.  
It bears in relationships to this, then, the proper place.

Q-30.  How should the Lord's Prayer be used in this connection?
A-30.  As in feeling, as it were, the flow of the meanings of each 
portion of same throughout the body-physical.  For as there is the 
response to mental representations of all these in the *mental* body, 
it may build into the physical body in the manner hs He, thy Lord, 
thy Brother, so well expressed in, "I have bread ye not know of."
281-29

The second answer, in telling us how to use this prayer, suggests that 
as we focus on consciousness upon the prayer there is a response from 
a deep level of the mind ("the response to the mental representations 
of all of these in the *mental* body...").  This response from a 
deeper level of the mind is accompanied by a physiological response - 
there is an attunement that opens the flow of a more profound level of 
energy within us ("I have bread ye not know of").  This principle 
holds true whether we are focusing upon the Lord's Prayer or some 
other affirmation that contains our ideal for spiritual growth.

IN the forst answer above, a reference is made to a chart.  In that 
chart the people asking the question had placed protions of the Lord's 
Prayer in relation to the various spiritual centers.  The reading 
indicated that they had properly assigned these realtionships.

[My version without the picture]

PITUITARY CENTER    Our Father Which Art in Heaven
                    and the Glory Forever
PINEAL CENTER       Hallowed be Thy Name
                    and the Power
THYROID CENTER      Thy kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done
                    for Thine is the Kingdom
THYMUS CENTER       but Deliver Us from Evil
ADRENAL CENTER      And Forgive Us Our Debts as We Forgive Our Debtors
LEYDIG CENTER       and Lead Us Not into Temptation
GONAD CENTER        Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread

    Can knowing this relationship between the spiritual centers and the 
various parts of the Lord's Prayer help us to use the prayer more 
effectively?  If we look at it as a specific prayer of attunement, there 
is a way in which we can use it at the beginning of each meditation 
period before we begin to work with the specific affrimation.  This 
method will be helpful in the whole process of attunement that we seek 
in meditation.  We want to "feel the meaning" of each portion of the 
prayer, the above suggests that each phrase relates to the qualities 
similar to those focused in each of the spiritual centers.

    "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven" is directed to the pituitary 
center and can be used to awaken the awareness of oneness.  We might 
relate this to the concept of one God or the oneness of the Father.  
As we say, "Hallowed Be Thy Name," we should feel the presence of the 
Christ Mind within us.  We can see this relationship if we think about 
how the following terms go together:  Name, Word, The Word Made Flesh,
The Light, The Christ.  That part of the Godhead that is represented 
in the Trinity as the Christ has its point of contact in the body 
in the pineal center.  As we say this part of the prayer, we want to 
get a sense of the presence of the Christ within.  "Thy Kingdom Come,
Thy Will Be Done" is directed to the thyroid center and is appropriate 
to awaken a consciousness of the obedient will.  So we can see that 
the Lord's Prayer begins by addressing the upper three centers, 
affirming the supremacy of God within ourselves.

    We might think of the next section of the Lord's Prayer, which 
addresses the lower centers, as a "bypass" prayer.  As the energy -
the daily bread - rises, we are interested in bypassing the confusing 
or destructive patterns associated with the lower centers.  Some 
schools of thought talk about awakening and mastering the spiritual 
centers sequentially, like rungs on a ladder.  If that kind of 
awakening means that we have to deal step by step with all the memory 
patterns stored at these lower levels, then it may take us along time 
to get the energy moved to the higher three centers.  Such a way will 
be fraught with many snares.  For example, imagine that you are 
sitting quietly in meditation and the adrenal center begins to awaken. 
Suppose you had to become aware of all the memory patterns you have 
stored concerning anger, fear and resentment.  If you had to deal with 
all of them and work your way through them before the thymus center 
could awaken, the progress would be very slow.  Clearly it would be 
better if we could move the energy directly from the gonads/cells of
Leydig complex to the pineal and pituitary centers.

    This is *not* to suggest that we are not responsible for the 
things that we have built into the spiritual centers between.  
Certainly, we are responsible for those patterns.  But the question 
is, How do we want to work on healing?  Do we want to fight our 
negative patterns at their own level (and be there a long time), or do 
we want to move to a higher level of awareness and energy and from 
that level begin to deal with them through the power of the Spirit of 
Christ?  Patterns related to the earth must invariably win if they are 
fought on their own level.  But we must have the alternative of 
awakening this spiritual energy to which we have greater access in 
meditation and letting it move directly to the higher centers.  There 
it will take on a vibrational quality that is in accord with the Christ 
and the principle of oneness.  Then the energy can move back down and 
heal the patterns of the lower centers.  This is referred to by some 
Chinese schools of meditation as the circulation of the light.  The 
truth of these concepts will become experienced by all of us as we 
continue to work with meditation.

    And so the Lord's Prayer begins by addressing the higher centers and 
then speaks to the lower centers.  In essence, the message directed to 
the lower centers is:  As the energy awakens, let it move through each 
of you without awakening patterns that are out of harmony with the 
ideal.  First the Prayer addresses the gonads, which have been 
described as a motor or generator of the body.  It says, "Give Us This 
Day Our Daily Bread"; thus, with this phrase we are requesting access 
in this meditiation (or this day) to only that amount of energy that 
we can use constructively - no more than that.  We might remember the 
story of the Israelites in the desert and the way in which they received
their daily food, manna.  Each morning they were to collect only the 
amount that was needed for that day - any excess would spoil them.  In 
the Lord's Prayer we are seeking that there may be awakened only that 
energy which is needed now to do the things we need to do.

    Next the prayer addresses the solar plexus or adrenal centers:
"Forgive Us Our Debts as We Forgive Our Debtors."  Here we want to 
focus on the quality of forgiveness.  When we can do this, the energy 
is able to move on and not get caught upp in the awakening of old 
patterns of fear or resentment.  Certainly we may have problems at the 
level of this spiritual center, but we are going to deal with them 
later, as the energy flows down.

    Then the praryer moves on and addresses the cells of Leydig 
with the words, "Lead Us Not into Temptation."  That is to say, "Do 
not allow the energy to dwell here and awaken the patterns at this 
level."  The constant temptation is to look at life in terms of 
duality instead of oneness - to think of God as being apart from us.  
The cells of Leydig center has especially to do with this sense of 
division, which is refelected in the male-female polarity.  As we 
bring an ideal into our work of balancing the male and female energies 
within us, we experience underlying oneness.  So here we can focus on and 
feel that presence within, which leads us and directs us.

    And finally, the prayer addresses the thymus center, saying, 
"Deliver US from Evil."  Again, the ideal espressed here is "Do not 
allow the energy to awaken the patterns at this level."  If we think 
of evil as the lack of love, then we can see the relationship between 
these words and the thymus center.  We are speaking to the center and 
asking that the energy pass through and not awaken patterns associated 
with memories of our failure to love truly.

    The prayer ends by affirming the Truine Godhead within: "For Thine 
Is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory Forever."  In saying this 
prayer and feeling its meaning we are moving toward the optimum 
physical conditions in meditation.

***

Comments?

Terry

    re: .39  (Kasper the friendly DEC award winner)
    
          Terry, while it is all very interesting, it seems to me to
    be a bit of a stretch.  Clearly it involves very loose interpretations
    of the words in the prayer.  Seems to me that if awakening the
    chakras is desired, there are easier and more direct paths than
    a supplication to the "heavens."
    
    Frederick
    

re: .40 (Frederick)

    I agree.  Although I have found some of the Cayce 'stuff' to
    be of interest and in some cases helpful, this use of the LP
    doesn't do too much for me.  In fact, if conflicts with other things 
    I've read regarding the awakening of the chakras.  In an 
    ARE sponsored class I took a while back on dreams, it was explicitly 
    stated that one should not mess with the natural process of chakra 
    awakening.  If one did and got them to open/awaken too soon (premature 
    chakralation, I guess) one might get fried...

    Terry 

    
    Thanks for taking the time to enter that Terry.  I found it very
    interesting.
    
    Guy
    
    

RE: <<< Note 641.25 by VIDEO::SU >>>

> ... when Rama was in this world, people 
>	believed in the coming of Krishna; when Krishna arrived, people
>	said they believe in Rama. 

	This is the first time I am hearing such argument. Hindus never reject
	any avatar (incarnation). According to Hindus, whenever dharma is
	in danger, god himself incarnates into the human body to save dharma.
	That is the idea behind avatar or son of God.

	Some people worship Ram or Krishna is purely a personal taste. The
	difference in personalities of Ram and Krishna is due to time. There
	is no conflict between their teachings.

re: -.43  Your intrusion are welcome:-)

>	This is the first time I am hearing such argument. Hindus never reject
>	any avatar (incarnation). According to Hindus, whenever dharma is
>	in danger, god himself incarnates into the human body to save dharma.
>	That is the idea behind avatar or son of God.

I have no argument on this at all. In India, there is nothing like a 
religion, its just a seeking.  A true seeking of a person is neither a
Hindu, Muslim, Christian.  They are just seers - "there is no caste for 
a seer".  He has no religion, no caste, just plain nothing.  He is a
human being, he doesn't belong to any conditioning of the kind, but to the 
truth itself.  That's why they found out through "meditative" method, not
through reading, through mental projections or through imaginations or
anything else, but through meditative method.

But, first seers had to become realised souls.  Like in Patanjali, it is not 
written clearly but it is said, "first you have to have Ishvar Pranidhan".
This means, you must get your realisation first, the God must be 
established within you.  Before that anything else you do is just 
artificial.  For example, today's electronic machinery, if they are not 
plugged into the power it can not work at all.  Human being is the same
way, if we are not connected to the mains (the pure desire of God - Kundalini
energy within us), if we start working out we either go to the left or to the 
right.  The subject of left and right, please refer to #1108.35 or #401.7.
 
>	Some people worship Ram or Krishna is purely a personal taste. The
>	difference in personalities of Ram and Krishna is due to time. There
>	is no conflict between their teachings.

Ram and Krishna came in different time. They actually came to complete the
human evolution in relation of Chakras in our body.  They each rule 
different Chakra in our body.  They didn't just drop in to this world in
their convenience to help out.  Like you have said, there is no conflict 
between their teaching; they are the part of the one divine tree knowledge.
They are part of human ascension. In Sahaja Yoga you can proof this yourself, 
you can proof there is God in this universe.  You can proof where Ram 
resides in you and where Krishna resides in you.  And even you are not a
Christian but you can proof where Christ resides in you.  In Sahaja Yoga,
we found people who worship Ram but they cannot establish the quality of
Ram in them.  As a result of that, their right heart chakra is blocked.
For this reason, people said Sahaja yogis are too arrogant!  You can own
this knowledge too, if you are willing to experience it.  There is no
ownership in Divine knowledge, it does not belong to any Church 
organization!  Abraham, Moses, Nanaka, Confuscius, Lao Tze, Mohammed Sahib,
Socrates, Janaka, Dattatreys and the most recent Sainath Baba are the same
Primodial Master came to establish our Dharmic principle.  They all have
no conflict with each other.  It is we, human being develop the sects out of
them!
    
    By the way, Shri Mataji will be in Los Angeles on September 9 and 10th.
    Contact 213-926-4070 for detail information. Self-realisation is your
    birth right, it is priceless - meaning you cannot pay for it, but you can
    pay for the $99 airline ticket for your own sake.