Conference hydra::dejavu

    I wonder which tabloid _The Denver Post_ got this from?
    
    
    
    John M.

    It says right there that it came off the Knight-Ridder news service.
    I thought that it was a reasonable article which reported quite
    sensibly on an actual form of Eastern medical practice.  The reporter
    described an event personally witnessed (unlike most of the nonesense
    in the tabloids).  It presented the possibility up front that the
    cures were due to psychological factors and expressed an opinion
    (a reasonable one, I think) that anything which is able to make
    such effective use of psychological factors in curing disease is
    worth looking into.
    
    I have seen some demonstrations (on film) of the Quidong "tricks" alluded
    to (games with sharp knives, etc.) and met a researcher from Harvard
    (I would guess the one mentioned) who was interested in investigating
    its potential.  It should be made clear that although Quidong, like
    yoga, concerns itself ideally with health, not all Quidong
    practitioners attempt to heal others.  Many are "just plain people"
    who study it, and many others are roughly equivalent to Indian Fakirs
    -- they make their living in traveling shows.
    
    Most of what I saw in the film was identifiable either as tricks
    or as simply outstanding "normal" abilities.  Nothing I saw seemed
    terribly worthwhile persuing as potentially paranormal.
    
    Nevertheless, I did see some excellent evidence that the practice,
    like hatha yoga, may produce outstanding self-control.  From that
    viewpoint, it is worthy of investigation.
    
    I also met (at the same conference) a mainland Chinese Physicist
    who had constructed an instrument for measuring what he thought
    were paranormal forces.  Essentially it consisted of a sensitive
    high-impedence galvanometer attached to a freshly picked leaf.
    He showed that the instrument (he did not have it with him, we only
    saw it in videotape) reacted to a hand placed near it and that that
    reaction was not due to heat, humidity or light.  He tested a Quidong
    master and reported that when the master attempted to project force at
    the leaf that he could get an exceptionally strong reaction at
    a distance of several meters, unlike the "normal" much weaker reaction
    at about 10cm.
    
    I would guess, assuming for the sake of argument that his
    demonstrations that the effect was not due to heat, humidity or light
    were adequate, that the response is due to chemical effects in the
    sweat.  Second guess is some kind of simple electromagenetic effect.
    A paranormal (despite my belief in the existance of phenomena which
    would be classed currently as paranormal) effect seems very unlikely
    to me.  But even as a detector of something quite "normal" it seems
    worth persuing.
    
    The most likely explanation for the Quidong masters success is simply
    trickery.  Second most likely is that his discipline (or lifestyle
    resulting from his discipline) resulted in changes to his body or
    nervous system which affected whatever the instrument was recording.
    Third most likely (and we are way, way down in probability now,
    much less than 1:100) is that although the instrument detects only
    some normal effect, that he was effecting it via PK.  Least likely,
    is that the instrument detects some paranormal force field around
    people and that he had more of it.
    
    						Topher

RE: .2 (Topher)

    >    It says right there that it came off the Knight-Ridder news
    service. I thought that it was a reasonable article which reported
    quite sensibly on an actual form of Eastern medical practice.  The
    reporter described an event personally witnessed (unlike most of the
    nonesense in the tabloids).  < 

Back off, Toph.  I read .0 quite carefully.  My tabloid comment was aimed
at the sensationalist nature of the article.  I could easily think of ways
to perform most of the tricks mentioned.  Had that article come from _The
Star_, you probably would have laughed at it.  But because it comes from
a "serious" source, the article takes on a scientific flavor of which it
is probably not deserving. 



    >  It presented the possibility up front that the cures were due to
    psychological factors and expressed an opinion (a reasonable one, I
    think) that anything which is able to make such effective use of
    psychological factors in curing disease is worth looking into.  < 


I can see where this was mentioned in passing, later in the article, but
certainly not up front as you aver.  In fact, the article fairly dives right
into more fantastic claims that have nothing to do with psychology:

    " In a recent demonstration of his powers, Li made a patient who was
    partially paralyzed dance like a puppet and fried a piece of frozen
    fish by spearing it with two copper rods connected to a wall outlet and
    completing the circuit with his hands.  Western doctors who have
    studied qigong in China remain skeptical about its curative powers, but
    admit that practitioners can perform some remarkable feats- standing on
    eggs without breaking them, leaning against sharp-tipped instruments
    without puncturing the skin, causing fluorescent light bulbs to flicker
    even when they're turned off, and emitting a physical force-field that
    can be felt several feet away. " 


    >  Nevertheless, I did see some excellent evidence that the practice,
    like hatha yoga, may produce outstanding self-control.  From that
    viewpoint, it is worthy of investigation.  < 

That may be, but you wouldn't know it from the article, which suggests that
it is something more:

    " A yoga-like discipline that requires years of practice and exercise
    to master, qigong purports to channel vital energy, by means of
    breathing exercises and concentration, across space to animate patients
    and heal everything from lumbago to paralysis. " 





    >  I also met (at the same conference) a mainland Chinese Physicist who
    had constructed an instrument for measuring what he thought were
    paranormal forces. Essentially it consisted of a sensitive
    high-impedence galvanometer attached to a freshly picked leaf.....  But
    even as a detector of something quite "normal" it seems worth persuing.
    < 


You are a little late.  I built such a device around 1972 to study what was
called the Backster effect.  One hooks up a plant to a psychogalvanometer
and studies the plant's supposed reaction to human feelings, presence etc..
I tested a variety of plants and parts of plants under various conditions
and found no evidence of such an effect.  A friend of mine at Cal State
tried the same thing with even more sensitive instruments and got the same
results as I.  Several researchers have since conducted such experiments
with similar results.  In 1974 The American Society of Plant Physiologists
held a special session where Backster's experiments were repeated with negative
results.  After all, a galvanometer simply registers electrical activity;
it doesn't prove plants "react" at all.  In fact, Dr. Adrian Upton of
the University of Ontario was able to detect life-like electrical responses
from a bowl of lime jello. [see Mother Earth News # 39, May 1976, p. 18]


    > Third most likely (and we are way, way down in probability now, much
    less than 1:100) is that although the instrument detects only some
    normal effect, that he was effecting it via PK.    Least likely, is
    that the instrument detects some paranormal force field around people
    and that he had more of it.  < 


How did you arrive at those figures?  And since psychokinesis (which I assume
PK stands for) has not been proven to exist, how can you list it as a more
likely explanation than a "paranormal force field?"


John M.                           

    Re .2
    
    I, too, constructed a device similar to the galvanometer you describe,
    also for investigating Backster effect.  I got results, but they
    worked just as well with no leaves in the circuit at all, and turned
    out to be "body capacitance," an effect one can see at home when
    one improves reception on a UHF channel by holding (or even just
    approaching) the TV antenna.
    
    If a qihong disciple is able to create such effects from further
    off, it might argue that he is able to do something odd to his body's
    electrical properties.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

 I have lately seen 2 shows on qigong. One was about the types practiced
    by a certain province in China.  The show featured 'silent meditation'
    n the movement type.  One part showed a master who manoveured a
    lady who was suffering from some physical inability by moving his
    hands behind her and her dance-like motions corresponded very
    closely.  After the exercise, her limbs recovered their dexterity.
    
    2nd show - Rings of Fire.  Featured 2 people who went to Bali,
    n other countries in search of adventure. They meet a native
    doctor who inserted 2 needles (acupuncture) to the sides of one
    of the men's head.  Injected some 'chi' into the needles and cured
    him of his eye problem.
    
    When one of the camera man held the healer's hands, he felt an
    electric shock.   The most amazing part came when the healer
    proceeded to borrow a newspaper n after placing it on the ground
    ,set fire to the paper just by a motion of his hand.
    
    
    Requires years of practice(18 years for this man),meditation n
    awareness.
    
    
    James
    

    I met a phys ed teach from China.  I asked him about this stuff.  He said 
    he had seen some of the things described and confirmed that it takes at 
    least 8 to 10 years of work to get any good at it.

    Mike

RE: .5
    
    > ... The most amazing part came when the healer proceeded to borrow
    > a newspaper n after placing it on the ground, set fire to the
    > paper just by a motion of his hand.
    
    However the healer did it, there is an extremely simple magic trick
    that looks identical to this.  Mechanically, it is so simple it
    can be taught to your average 10 year old, though the proper sense
    of theater needed to pull it off requires a bit more maturity.
    
    					Topher

    Re: 7.
    
    It is always good to find out that there may be logical reasons
    or tricks behind something,but I would like to include some other
    stuff which chi has or had been used or reputed to have caused.  
    
    In the martial arts field, generation of sufficient chi had been
    able to protect them from injuries.  For example, in certain
    performing troupes from China, there is sometimes an act where 
    a spear(not deadly sharp of course) has been placed against a
    artist throat and with a man pushing it, the spear bent n the 
    man was unharmed.   Some practitioners could stand punches
    thrown anywhere except of course the eyes n genitals.
    
    From the practice of tai-chi, u can feel certain 'electricity-like'
    sensations in your body.   Thru this chi, after sufficient(helluva
    of a lot of years) practice, one's bones can become quite hard
    n heavy.  Some of the tai-chi masters have arms several times the
    weight of an average man's.(of course, this has obvious advantages in
    fighting n we are assuming they are not giants to start with). :-)
    The original founder of Aikido, Uyeshiba could stand his ground,
    with his disciple pushing against him with all his might n yet
    not make any impression.
    
    These are illustrations of internal chi which may or may not be
    expressed externally.  
    
    In China again, there is a medical doctor who has been practicing
    qigong his whole lifetime n has forefathers in this line of practice.
    
    According to the newspaper , Straits Times that i read, this guy
    had developed his qi to the extent that he could make the shuttlecock
    revolve in midair.  This same guy treats a lady for her paralysis
    by putting his palm above the lady n as if strings were attached
    to the legs of the lady, it moved up in consonant with his palm's
    movements.
    
    I do not know the logic or tricks for all these, but i believe
    some people over in the West are studying these things seriously.
    They are not so miraculous or paranormal though just natural 
    phenomena.