Conference hydra::dejavu

    There could indeed be something extrasensory involved, both because
    the girl's name sprung into your mind and that you looked at he
    obits, which you normally don't do.  What I also find interesting
    is that a paper would run an obit of someone who was living 1,500
    miles away(unless her relatives had it inserted).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Hi.
         I'm totally convinced that ESP does exist in some form.  I
    saw an outstanding example of it happen right in front of me (Silva
    Mind Control topic).  What I'd give my eye teeth to know is, what
    is the mechanism?  I mean, that's out and out solid evidence that
    there is some fundamentally important information that we don't
    have about the way the universe works.  Like on the order of the
    world is round, and E=mcc, and wouldn't it be neat if we had LANGUAGE?
    MIKE

RE: .0
    
    According to surveys this kind of incident is very common.  A large
    number of cases have been collected where definite independent evidence
    exists which establishes the apparently paranormal event (in this
    case the name "popping into your head") occuring and being noted
    before the seeming source event (in this case the death of your
    old aquaintance) is communicated by normal means (in this case,
    the obit) or could reasonably have been.  The independent evidence
    consists of discussions with other people who confirm the details
    described, the contents of letters, or of diaries.
    
    Generally the incident may involve either a death or a crises (e.g.,
    a near fatal accident).  And the paranormal event, when precise
    times can be pinned down, generally (though not always) slightly
    before, after or during the incident.  It may manifest as a dream,
    a seemingly random thought (as in your case), an apparition, or
    in other ways (e.g., a voice).
    
    The "skeptical" position attributes these incidents to:
    
    	1) Coincidence.
    	2) When a person is thought of and then nothing is discovered
    	   the thought is forgotten, when something *does* come up,
    	   it is remembered and thought remarkable.
    	3) Information first arives via some other information channel
    	   (e.g., a radio obit, overheard but not consciously listened
    	   to) but is not consciously noted.  The subconscious makes
    	   the connection and pushes it up to awareness.
        4) Memories, especially weak ones about such things as dreams
    	   or random thoughts, tend to get altered to fit later facts
    	   (this unquestionably occurs, it has been demonstrated over
    	   and over again).  Details that may provide much of the surprise
    	   factor in some cases may be filled in by this mechanism.
    	5) Rumor (it never happened, the story just grew up, as stories
    	   do).
    	6) Fraud/hoax/joke.
    
    No one with any awareness of the prevelance of the cases asserts
    that any one of these is the cause.  Rather what is claimed is that
    some cases are caused by one and some by another.
    
    What this boils down to is that because of the undoubtable existence
    of the factors listed above, one would *expect* there to be a certain
    number of cases of this kind, some of which may even be very well
    documented.  It is a matter of judgement whether or not there are
    too many.
    
    In my opinion the body of cases of "crises apparitions" (using
    the phrase in a general sense) provides one of the very best sources
    of non-laboratory evidence for psi phenomena.
    
    Rejection of a paranormal explanation for this body of events does
    *not* represent objective skepticism -- rather it represents a
    possibly justifiably biased evaluation of the evidence.  What would
    justify such a bias?  The judges intuition, of course, which as
    I have said elsewhere is as important to a scientist, if not more
    so, as their logical analytic skills.
    
    What does this boil down to, for you?  Your going to have to make
    your own judgement as to the probability of each of the above 6
    "conventional" possibilities (and others if you can think of any)
    in your case.  You'll then have to decide, on that basis, whether
    or not you are going to have to change your mind about whether "these
    things happen".  All I can do is tell you that there is a large
    body of evidence for them, both laboratory parapsychology experiments,
    and the case material described above, which is very, very hard
    to explain in conventional terms.  If you would like, I would be
    glad to point you to this evidence.  I know from experience how
    difficult the change in viewpoint from "skeptical" to "taking it
    seriously" is, and I sympathize with the turmoil the process, however
    resolved, produces.
    
    					Topher

    I would like to relate a similar experience and my reactions to it.
                   
    The event occurred fifteen years ago.  I awoke from a strange and
    vivid nightmare.  In the dream I was closing up the building that
    I worked in (a Girls' Club).  My husband and children were with
    me when we heard a large "bang".  Up to that point there was nothing
    unusual about the dream as that it reflected the end of day in reality.
    Then we looked out and noticed someone at the window in the building 
    accross the street, and he had a gun.  My husband told us to hit
    the floor and he was going to try to enter the building.  Meanwhile
    the man started shooting randomly out the window with a sawed-off
    shotgun.  I trying frantically to warn my husband not to try to
    be a hero, to get out of the building...then I woke up feeling sick.
    I woke up my husband and told him about it and eventually went back
    to sleep (vowing no more late night spicy meals!)
    
    The next day at work, at the Girls Club, one of the staff asked
    if we'd heard about what had happened the night before.  Apparently
    a guy in a house on that very same street had flipped out and shot
    his roomates with a sawed-off shotgun then proceeded to start shooting
    randomly out the window.  As you can imagine, the hair was standing
    straigt up on my arms.  
    
    I knew that something above and beyond coincidence had occured.
    My feeling, at the time, was that I didn't really want to have this
    kind of experience.  Eventually I decided that if I could tap in
    to information that was "out there", I wanted it to be beneficial.
    

    I'm wondering if my incident of two years ago would fit in here.
    
    My boyfriend and I had gone to visit my mother, who lives about
    20 miles away from me, in my rather new car.  When our visit was
    finished, she suggested I visit my aunt who lived across town, I
    remember declining but being very adamant about it to the point
    of being rude and being embarassed about acting that way in front
    of the boyfriend (and I've always liked this aunt).  Then I started
    feeling guilty and to please her, said I'd go.
    
    Well, the boyfriend was driving; we stopped at the traffic light
    and when it turned green we went; and someone ran the red light
    right into us - the car was totaled - luckily we weren't hurt,
    they hit right before the passenger's door where I was sitting.
    
    I've always wondered if my subconcious or the powers that be
    were trying to keep out of that accident.
    
    It's funny but that accident started a string of incidents that
    have kept my life in chaos the last 2 years - just now are things
    turning better.
    
    Anyway, always has made me wonder.
    
    Rosemary

    
    re: .1
           >What I also find interesting is that a paper would run an
    obit of someone who was living 1,500 miles away(unless her relatives
    had it inserted).
     
           That is the case. Her parents,brothers and sisters all still
    live in the area.
    
    re: .3
            I can definitely rule out possibilities 5 and 6. As for
    possiblities 1-4, I'd like to say `all of the above' although I
    honestly can't be certain of any explanation and probably never
    will.
    
    
       I'd also like to say that although I consider myself to be a
    skeptic, I have an open mind. (At least I think I do :^)) I don't
    disbelieve, yet I don't fully believe it either. (Am I confused
    or what?:^)) It is somewhat comforting to know that others have
    experienced similar situations and that I'm not just `losing it'.

RE: .4
    
    How far was the sniper from where you were sleeping?  Could you
    have conceivably heard the gunshots while you slept?
    
    					Topher

    	Either that or her husband let one rip in the middle of
    the night.            

    We lived about a couple of miles away from where it happened.  It
    was in the city which was always fairly noisy at night.  I did not
    check the time when I awoke, or the time the shooting occured.

RE: .9
    
    Thanks.  Two miles is pretty far to accurately identify gunshots
    and guess where they were coming from in an urban environment, but
    not absolutly impossible.  I would say pretty clearly a priori
    unlikely, but each of us will have to judge for ourselves how likely,
    a postori, that this was the mechanism involved here.  Personally,
    on the basis of the information you've given I would say that there
    is a pretty high probability that this was a psychic event.
    
    					Topher

OK, this skeptic is about to reveal it all ...(well, most of it, that is).

I'm talking about paranormal experiences. If you have strong abilities in
this field, you know what I am about to write, so you don't to read any
further. 

For the rest of you, my total paranormal talents seem to involve upcoming
accidents. As a true skeptic, I must point out that we all seem to see 
hundreds of accidents that never happen. A family member or friend is late, 
or on a trip, and our imagination pictures some horrible car wreck or plane
crash. When they arrive, the fears vanish.

But the two experiences I am going to tell you about were both somewhat 
different than this run of-the-mill fear. For days before both events I
had this brooding feeling that something was going to happen. It grew stronger
and stronger, until the event itself. It is these inner pervasive and 
persistent feelings of dread that have given these events a 
special quality.

In the first case, about three years ago, my wife was away on a trip, 
traveling by plane. Thoughts of a plane crash kept running through my 
mind. This always happens to a certain extent when anyone close to me 
flies, even though I know that statistically flying is about as safe 
as cooking dinner. I kept picturing a 727 slamming into the ground just 
after takeoff. It doesn't bother me at all when *I* fly [in an airplane, 
that is] ;-}. My feeling of dread increased, and became an obsession for 
several days.

Two days before her return, a 727 from the same airline took off from the
same airport, and crashed. When I saw the news on TV, I knew that this was
the crash I had been brooding about, and that my wife would arrive safely.
I remember mixed feelings of horror over the actual crash mixed with feelings
of relief at my wife's safety.
           
Well, this really did not convince me of much, except to stop worrying, 
and most skeptics out there will agree with that.

But the next event, 6 months after that, evoked even stronger 
feelings. 

I kept seeing myself in a car wreck. 

I saw my car with me in it, spinning out of control at a high rate of 
speed and smashing into a red car on a crowded expressway. The 
other car was always red. I dreamed about red cars, brooded about red 
cars, thought about red cars at work, at home, at lunch, in the bathroom. 
Always it was my car bearing down and careening into the red car. (My car at 
the time was brown.)

This went on for about a week. I drove with extra care. I gave 
every red car the right of way. If I had to pass a red car, I 
gritted my teeth and held my breath until I was safely past. I 
carefully eyeballed all drivers of red cars, and smiled as they 
drove by. (There are an awful lot of red cars on the highway!)

I was on my home, headed north from Merrimack on NH Route 3 toward 
Manchester and Concord. A red car was ahead of me in the line for 
the toll booth, but it didn't bother me because the line moved so 
slowly. (Usually I would be spitting bricks if the toll booth 
line was so slow.
 
We left the toll booth. The red car zoomed on ahead. Traffic was medium 
heavy, but moving along. The weather was clear. The highway narrowed 
as it snaked through Manchester, and traffic increased. I was in 
the right hand lane, but the two lanes of traffic moved together, 
almost bumper to bumper, at close to 60 miles an hour. 

I followed the red car in front of me. Suddenly brake lights appeared 
ahead of me. The red car jammed on its brakes. I tromped on mine. 
I saw a piece of lumber in the road, a 2-by-4 or 2-by-6, and saw 
the lumberyard truck beyond pulling off to retrieve the board.

The red car, a Stanza, swerved and skidded, its rear end swinging to the left. 
In the left lane, next to me but a car length in front, was another red 
car. I never figured out the model. It swerved to the right! My way was 
blocked by two red cars! 

The two red cars veered to the right, both drivers fighting for control 
of their cars. I swung left into the breakdown lane, the car bounding as 
it passed over rough sewer gratings and potholes. There was less 
than an inch to spare on either side between the guard rail and 
the left hand red car. 

Both red cars hit the lumber and bounced. I think they sideswiped each 
other, but never did find out for sure. The board did not extend into 
the breakdown lane. I was through, and passing the lumber truck. 

I relaxed my knuckles on the steering wheel. Traffic resumed its normal 
rush hour flow. As the sweat dried, relief flooded over me. The ominous 
thoughts vanished like morning dew, and were left behind like the piece 
of lumber. I felt exalted, alive, powerful, and omnipotent.


                      *                     *

So I ask you -- was this a paranormal experience?

-bs

    Re .11:
    
> ................ I kept picturing a 727 slamming into the ground just 
>after takeoff. It doesn't bother me at all when *I* fly [in an airplane, 
>that is] ;-}. My feeling of dread increased, and became an obsession for 
>several days.  ...
>Two days before her return, a 727 from the same airline took off from the
>same airport, and crashed. When I saw the news on TV, I knew that this was
>the crash I had been brooding about, and that my wife would arrive safely.
 
    Since you didn't visualize your wife in the airplane, this _might_
    be precognitive.   Hard to say for sure; however, comparing to:
    
>I saw my car with me in it, spinning out of control at a high rate of 
>speed and smashing into a red car on a crowded expressway.  ...
>Both red cars hit the lumber and bounced. I think they sideswiped each 
>other, but never did find out for sure. The board did not extend into 
>the breakdown lane. I was through, and passing the lumber truck.
    
    ...where the foreseen thing did _not_ occur, I suspect the first
    makes a _far_ better case for being something really paranormal.
    
    Perhaps.
    
    However, it's my understanding that any kind of prognostication
    provides signposts or indications of trends, not pure determinism.
    In that case, both could have been truly paranormal (note: in
    the second example, you had a choice, which you exercised by taking
    extra care).                 
    
    So, the book is open on both.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

                 

RE: .11
    
    Beats me, sure could be.  As a skeptic (in the true sense of the
    word, not as co-opted by CSICOP et. al.) I look for evidence before
    I say that something is or isn't so.  I think that there is very,
    very good evidence that psi (including, as in this case, precognition)
    exists.  Given that precognition exists, this seems like a good
    candidate for its occurance.  However, it *could* be a coincidence,
    or (in this case, it would seem much less likely but still possible)
    self-fulfilling prophecy.  After all, there may be many people out
    there at any given time brooding about red cars and accidents (red
    is much more likely, I would guess, to be associated in peoples
    minds with accidents) and, as you said, for many of them it wouldn't
    pan out.  For a few, it would and become startling evidence to them
    and to others that a premonition came true.
    
    So, I would say: probably -- but we'll never know for sure.
    
    					Topher

RE: .12
    
    As you can see from my previous note I basically agree with you
    Steve, but I have a slightly different perspective.
    
    Although many people think of premonitions as being very literal,
    this is actually quite unusual.  Premonitions seem to come up out
    of the subconscious.  They therefore have much the same characteristics
    as, for example, dream images which relate to remembered events:
    they are distorted, symbolic, mixed together and errorful.  Only
    occasionally do they come through undistorted.
    
    In the first example, what occured was an unexplained anxiety about
    a 727, which became focused on his wifes traveling.  That anxiety
    was resolved by the news report of the crash.  The anxiety may have
    been caused by precognitive knowledge of the crash and the resolution
    may have come about because of realization that the real knowledge
    was about the flight.  On the other hand, the anxiety could have
    been generated by some random thing, and the crash could have simply
    given him a chance to resolve his anxiety, which could otherwise
    have been resolved by something a little less close: the crash of
    a plane at another airport, or while landing, or another type of
    plane.  Or it may have been left unresolved until his wife arrived
    safely home.  In my view, while certainly a "possible", I would
    not class it as a "likely".
    
    The other was, however, somewhat different.  What was being
    communicated was roughly "A possible accident involving a red car."
    That was what was communcicated.  The only thing which failed to
    be communicated was that the accident could be avoided.  If you
    were trying to warn someone, using charades, of such an accident,
    would you bother with the idea of the car rolling to safety in the
    breakdown lane?  Probably not, or at least not until you had
    successfully gotten across the DANGER message.  This to me was
    therefore pretty direct "hit" (if you'll pardon the expression :-),
    having pretty much the type of distortion which I would expect to
    find.  So I give the second story the points, and would describe
    it as "likely".
    
    Was it a premonition of a near accident or was it a warning of an
    accident averted by the warning?  A difficult question.  We tend
    to hear about premonitions which have a clear purpose so that the
    warning hypothesis seems attractive.  Systematic surveys of
    premonitions show that many seem quite random, without any obvious
    purpose.  The real "purpose", if there was a purpose at all, may
    have been, for example, to increase his sense of mastery of his
    environment, or to make him a little less sure of a conventional
    materialistic philosophy.
    
    						Topher

    RE: .11
        I do not wish to spend a great deal of time or thought to this
    at this moment but just to *balance out* the "scientists" somewhat
    let me offer this:  I believe that though events can happen from
    any of a number of sources, ultimately they are as a result of some
    thought based on an emotion (whether conscious or unconscious.)
    The emotion or thought could "originate" from YOU, from your ego,
    from your sub-conscious or perhaps from your Higher Conscious (or
    possibly other sources.)  In both of these cases it may well have
    been a message from your Higher Self for a specific reason.  What
    could the reason(s) be?  It's hard to say from where I sit without
    more thought (for me, at least) but let us say that there could
    be a message that deals with fear of dying.  So your Higher Self
    sends you the coded message in the form of a dream (which has a
    much smaller chance of getting distorted by your negative ego that
    way, by the by.)  Then YOU get an opportunity to deal with the message
    and create the reality you want revolving around that message.  Notice
    that you spent a great deal of time on the *dreamed* event and that
    you focused on it quite heavily.  Somewhere in the process, however,
    you said "NO, I don't want it that way!"  So, in this manner, you *allowed*
    a reality to occur which was different enough from your pre-conception
    so as to "teach you" the lesson without actually letting you get
    involved too directly.  You see, you can create a reality as a
    participant or as an observer with all the varying steps in between
    (to total non-observation which therefore becomes a non-event or
    a *non-reality*)  The message was obviously a very strong one. 
    I think it is important to look at as many of the emotions surrounding
    the events as possible and then seeing to what extent or not you
    dealt with them.  I congratulate you for being able to create a
    participation which allowed for no harm to you.
         Anyway, while this scenario is relatively incomplete, I hope
    it shows you a possible (probable, for me) direction in which to
    begin to work.
      
    Frederick
    
    

    To VICKI::BUSTA:
    
    Your obituary column dilemma is no coincidence.  Your
    friend-of-a-friend was on your mind at the time of her death most
    likely because there is some kind of a connection, and always was
    between the two of you.  This kind of thing happens all the time,
    except occasionally people see apparitions of the deceased at the
    exact time of their death.  Sometimes the deceased people talk to
    the person.  And most of the time, it seems to be someone fairly
    close to the person -- different from your case, which makes your
    story all the more interesting.
    
    This person who died was trying to contact you for some reason.
    This is the reason you thought of her, and probably also the reason
    you decided to read the obituaries that day (unless, of course,
    you always read the obituaries).  You should ask yourself what it
    is that connects the two of you spiritually.  Perhaps you will come
    up with something that seems to make sense to you.
    
    By the way, this person is indeed still very much alive.  The only difference
    is that she now exists out of her body, in another plane of existence.
    She (her soul) is trying to communicate with you, but you can't hear her.
    Perhaps she was once very close to you in a past life.  You've probably
    had many.  What you might consider doing (if you really want to get
    down to the bottom of this) is to do some research.  You might want to 
    make contact with her family or any friend of yours who also was close
    to her.  Find out about this woman -- what she did, who she knew, what 
    kinds of things interested her, what places she most enjoyed going.  
    You might find a connection.  And perhaps you will continue to
    communicate with her in some way, even if you don't hear or see
    her.
    
                        -rick-
    
     
    
    

    
    
    re: .16
    
          I've run this thing through my memory banks over and over
    and I really can't see any earthly connection between us other than
    the fact of our acquaintanceship. Also the fact that (from what
    I read) she ended up going into computer science after high school
    as did I. Talk about remote I/O! :^)

         
    These sorts of things happen to me all the time.  Fortunately they've
    all been positive experiences (no accidents, deaths, etc.).
    
    The most common of these events is to 'recognize' a person when
    they enter my life - either in the form of a photo, or just a feeling
    when I meet them face-to-face that they will have some direct impact
    on my life in the future.  This has happened so many times that
    I'm never surprised by this anymore. 
    
    Other things are - not being able to turn the page of a newspaper
    or book until I actually 'read' what it is that I'm supposed to
    see.  This happened last in Switzerland a few years ago when I was 
    reading a newspaper and couldn't figure out why I couldn't turn the 
    page.  Kept reading and rereading the page, but nothing.  Finally I 
    noticed the obit of one of my favorite authors (Helen Santmyer) to 
    whom I'd sent a letter to and received an answer from just a few 
    months before.
                               
    Other more common experiences involve 'finding things'.  
    
    'Tis interesting.  
    
    Cindy

    Thank you all for the many thoughtful answers that have been entered
    here.
    
    I am too busy at the moment to reply in depth, but I'll digest
    all that has been said, or will be said (after I read it - not by
    precognition), and give you my thoughts.             
    
    -bs

    Re: .18
    
    Cindy, that happens to me all the time. I'll be reading something
    - paper, magazine, or whatever - and a specific phrase or word pops 
    into mind. When I examine the page closely, I'll almost always find
    the word.
    
    I don't think this is anything supernatural. I think it is subliminal
    observation: you notice the word unconsciously out of the corner of 
    your eye as you are reading something else, and it appears in your
    mind.
    
    -bs

RE: .17
    
    As I remember, the surveys of crises apparitions which have been
    done show this as quite common.  We usually hear dramatic stories
    of mothers seeing their sons at the moment that they die in battle
    overseas, and of husbands seeing their wives as thier wives are
    involved in an accident.  The surveys showed a different pattern,
    however: most of the incidents involved someone with only a loose
    connection with the person getting the "message".  I can think
    of two reasons for this:
    
    	1) The "message" goes out equally to everyone with any association
    	   at all.  We know more people distantly than we know intimately,
    	   so a randomly recieved message is more likely to be from
    	   an aquaintence than from an intimate.
    
    	2) Strangers are of no interest so no message gets pushed from
    	   the subconscious to the conscious in that case.  Danger or
    	   death to intimates is to threatening to get through the
    	   subconscious "censors" so no message gets through in that
    	   case.  That leaves only messages from people who are known
    	   but not too well.
    
    I'm not at all sure that I have listed all the obvious possibilities,
    however, and it also may involve something subtle about the actual
    mechanics of the process.  In other words, I wouldn't put to much
    faith in either of those two as being likely.  (By the way, these
    reasons for the apparent skew towards the less-intimate friends,
    apply even if we are not talking about a paranormal occurance. 
    Even from a purely psychological viewpoint this characteristic of
    the phenomenon raises interesting questions).
    
    					Topher

                               
    RE.20 on printed material - That is a very good explanation, thank
    you!  I'll watch for that from now on.
                    
    On people - I do recall an incident where an old friend was on my
    mind constantly for 3 days.  I hadn't talked to this fellow in over
    7 years.  Finally I couldn't stand the suspense so I tried calling
    him at his home over 300 miles away (Binghamton, NY).  His number was 
    still in the directory assistance listing so I knew he was there.  
    The phone rang and rang - no answer.  Tried the next day.  The phone was 
    disconnected with no forwarding number.  I remembered that his parents 
    lived in Syracuse, NY, so I called them and told them who I was.  They 
    gave me his new phone number, in Maryland where he had moved to.  He 
    was fine, glad to report.  
         
    There is another vivid incident on finding lost rings which I described
    in the 'losing things' topic.  
    
    Cindy

   Here's the reply I promised several days ago.                   
    
    I am still highly skeptical regarding precognition or 
   premonition, even in light of my own experiences (.11). 
   
   Here are some reasons:
   
   1. Life, and human beings, are both complex and complicated. 
   Many, many things happen to us during our lifetime. Our minds 
   are active and thinking (no jokes, please) 18 or so hours a 
   day, and some parts of the mind are active 24 hours a day. 
   
   It is inevitable that some of the things we think about will 
   come true. We do this all the time, on a more or less trivial 
   basis: we predict what will happen when we get home, what will 
   happen tomorrow, next weekend, etc. Many of these things turn 
   out as expected, and we don't think this is remarkable.
   
   Somemtimes things seem to happen by coincidence when in 
   reality they are within the normal range of occurrence. For 
   example, my brother and his wife live several thousand miles 
   away. We speak with them by phone 7 or 8 times a year. On 
   occasion, if several weeks have gone by and we haven't heard 
   from them, my wife or I has said, "Gee, we haven't heard from 
   Mickey and Judy - let's call them." Before doing this, the 
   phone rings. Guess who is on the line? ("We haven't heard from 
   you in a while and thought we'd call.") Or we call them, and 
   they say, "Gee we were just going to call you." 
   
   Coincidence? I think not. 
   
   2. We tend to forget the things we thought would happen, but 
   never did. We tend to remember the things we thought would 
   happen, and did happen. We forget the accident we thought 
   would happen, the times we expected the phone to ring, but it 
   didn't, or the funny feeling that so and so was going to walk 
   in the door but did not.
   
   3. Lotteries, Megabucks, Las Vegas, and so forth seem to 
   operate according to the rules of chance. The states operate 
   these games according to known mathematical laws. If these 
   laws were wrong or influenced by psychic power, the states 
   would soon get out of the gambling business. If precognition 
   truly existed, some of the millions of people buying Megabucks 
   tickets each week would be consistent winners. Instead, the 
   rate of winning is what is to be expected mathematically. The 
   winners may attribute their luck to their psychic powers, but 
   that doesn't make it so. (But I still play Megabucks every 
   week.)
   
   4. Psychic's prediction are little better than chance, or are 
   so vague as to be meaningless. Nobody called the stock market 
   drop, Nancy Reagan's operation, the L.A. earthquake, or the 
   plane crash into the hotel. But there have many predictions of 
   aliens landing from outer space, of Atlantis rising up, etc. 
   Vague predictions (trouble in the middle East, severe winter 
   weather, etc.) are open to countless interpretations.
   
   5. Many of the things we think we have precognition about are 
   trivial and many of the things we don't have precognition 
   about are major events. I may often guess who is calling me, 
   but the sudden deaths of my mother and my son, and the fatal 
   illness of my father were all total unexpected. (All were at 
   different times. Sorry to be morbid, but this is an important 
   point, and believe me, this is harder on me than you.) If 
   precognition existed, we would expect it to cover meaningful 
   events.
   
   This is how I see it. Please tell me what you think.
   
   -bs

    I respect your skepticism,I am also skeptical of ideas or concepts
that some people seem to have a desire to believe with out much of a
reason.I would like to relate one of the experiences I had that 
convinced me that precognition is real.I don't expect a skeptic to 
be convinced by this and I don't think any septic worth their weight
in salt should be convinced.It is only because of what I have personally
experienced that I believe in it.
  I have had many precognitive experiences but the one that really
convinced me happened in 1973 I had a vivid dream that I lived
in an apartment, I was currently living at home.In my dream I could
clearly see two square brick apartment buildings and I lived in
the one on the right.I saw a person there that I was currently 
working with and they had bug lights (bug zappers)in the back of his
car. In my dream I asked him about them and he said that he was selling 
them full time.For a reason I don't understand I became furious
that he was living in the other building (some how he was spying on me
for my father)I woke up furious.Well I put the dream out of my mind
it seemed ridiculous.
  Six months latter my best friend and I decided to rent an apartment
together (you know two wild and crazy guys on the loose)we looked
around for something but most from our point of view were pretty 
expensive.Then after looking for a couple of weeks my friend called
saying he had found just what we were looking for. I asked if he was 
sure, he said he was, so I said OK without seeing the apartment. He
proceeded to put the money down on it.That weekend I went to see the 
apartment to my shock I recognized the two brick buildings from my
dream I asked which one our apartment was in ,he replied the
one on the right.Then I saw the guy I had worked with standing out side 
next to his car .I turned to my friend and said if this guy has
bug lights in his car I'm going to **(((6 .Sure enough they were
in the back of his car and he was selling them full time.
I asked if he lived in the apartments he said yes but that he
was moving out.Why is that I asked, because my apartment has been
over run with cockroaches the building had been fumigated except
for their apartment. Their apartment had been over run and his 
wife refused to live there anymore.   
      

                    

RE: .24
    
> be convinced by this and I don't think any septic worth their weight
    					     ******
    
    Watch out!  Your letting your true feelings show! :-)
    
    					Topher
    

 The spelling was not intentional (Freudian slip?? only my subconscious
knows for sure).

    How many are aware of the "original" Freudian slip:
    
    Sigmund was at a dinner where he stood up and introduced his daughter,
    Anna, to his party (I forget the exact setting, it might have been
    at a large dinner in his honor):  "...and I'd like you to meet my
    favorite son, Anna ..."