Conference hydra::dejavu

Shouldn't that be Autumnal Equinox??

Many happy returns to you also...

Jay

    Re .0:
    
    Time is out of joint; O cursed sprite
    That ever I was born to put it right.
    
                             -- some Danish kid, per Willie Shakespeare
    
    re .1:
    
    Kerrect.
    
    re everybody:
    
    And the happiest equinox to you _all_.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Blessed be.

    And don't forget the Moon is new also!  Double hit of start-up energy
    here. . .
    
    Marcia

    
    ...which means l' shana tovah! (Happy New Year!)
    

     For those of you who do not know what date Autumn Equinox is, 
     It is on September 21st.
    
     BLESSED BE
    
    PAT

.6
Not this year... it was today at 9:15am (I think  anyone know the exact
time?) Actually, the dictionary (great source, eh) defines it as the 22nd
or 23rd.

Jay

    RE: .7
    
    Sorry, I had looked it up in on of my reference books at home which
    said it was the 21st.
    
    I looked it up in the dictionary just now and it did say Sept. 23rd.
    
    Thanks for pointing it out.
    
    BLESSED BE
    
    PAT

    Re .6, .7:
    
    [aside:  OmiGawd!  A lesson in simple orbital mechanics and ....]
    
    Actually, the Equinox is that time when the lighted and dark portions
    of a day ["day" and "night"] are of equal duration.  The spring
    version is called the Vernal; the fall version, the Autumnal.  The
    Vernal is generally in the 20-21 March area; the Autumnal, generally
    22-23 september.  The reason for this apparent anomaly is due in
    part to the cockamamie calendar we've been stuck with; another is
    that the Earth's orbit is elliptical and thus the time between
    equinoxes isn't exactly 182.65... days.
    
    Then, there's the Leap Year problem....
    
    See how simple it is?
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    Re.-1
    
    Details, details! (:^)
                     
    
    Side comment - I wonder if the sun uncorked a good bottle of dry
    champagne to celebrate the event......
                                     
    It's a good excuse for a celebration......  
    
    Cindy

.8 Pat  What refernece book was that? I happen to hear it on the radio
this morning on the way in (WGBH Boston a program call _A New Day_ nice
show). 

.9 Steve  Real simple, eh?

.10 Cindy  Any excuse'll do!


                           o   o       .  O      
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Cheers!                    \        .      /
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                             \   o .     / 
                              \         / 
                               \  o .  /
                                \  o  /
                                 \   /
                                  \ /
                                   I
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                                   I
                                -------

    RE:  .11
    
        The book is the EIGHT SABBATHS FOR WITCHES.
                                 
    
    PAT

    In addition to what Steve said, another way to state it is that 
    the Sun is at 0 degrees declination when viewed from Earth.  That 
    is, its "shadow" (what would one call a shadow of light, anyway?) 
    falls directly on the Earth's equator.  
    
    The 21st of September is referred to in many books as the general
    guideline date for the Autumnal Equinox.  Even though the 21st is 
    the "usual" date, it can vary a few days either way each year.  
    I've known years when it was right on the 21st, others when it 
    was the 20th, the 19th, the 22nd, etc.

    Marcia

    
    So is the moon always new at the equinox? This occurs (I think)
    when the moon and sun have the same declination. I've lost my moon
    calendar from last year; my guess (intuition ;^) ) says no, but
    it pays to ask.
    
    Tananda

    Yeeeeeessssss!  It's celebration time. These two have caught me
    unawares. Our circle will celebrate the Autumnal Equinox tonight and
    for the next full moon, which is my birthday, there is a lunar eclipse.
    The change feels great. 
                                          
    The Aspens are at their peak this week, perhaps even today. I can
    feel the days getting shorter even now. Skiable snow is on the way.
    Look! Outside my window, was that a snowflake?
    
    Blessed Be! 

    and its one of the few remaining Earth holidays that hasn't been
    overshadowed and commercialized by "them" ;-)
    
    Enjoy the season,
    Kind thoughts to all.
    
    Thom 

According to my "Old Farmers Almanac" fall began at 9:45 am EDT this
morning. 

Also according to the OFA the harvest moon will be the first full
moon in October that is Oct. 6....

-vicki

    No, the Moon is not always new at the equinox.
    
    The new Moon means that the Moon and Sun are what the astrologers
    call "conjunct" (sitting on top of) each other.  When these
    conjunctions are _very_ exact, you have solar eclipses.
    
    The declination effect occurs because the Earth is tilted on its
    axis.  This means that (from our Earthbound perspective) as the
    year progresses the sunrise and sunset points appear to "travel" 
    from south to north and back again.  The most southerly and northerly
    points are called the solstices, and occur around the 21st of December
    (winter) and 21st of June (summer).  The points where the sun is
    right at the equator are called the equinoxes, and occur around
    March 21st (spring) and September 21st (autumn).
    
    The lunation cycles are another thing altogether and follow different
    timing.  It's just an interesting occurrence to have the equinox 
    and lunation occur within a day of each other (heck, within 12 hours
    of each other this year).
    
    Marcia

    Re.16
    
    Shhhh, not too loudly now.  Someone from Hallmark cards might hear
    you!
    
    Re.14
    
    Snow?!?!?  Where?!?!
    
    Time to get the boards tuned and checked.  Heard from my Aussie
    friend the other day - they had excellent conditions downunder.
    He and his family stayed mid-slope and had door to door skiing -
    true luxury!  Ah, cool drinks on the sun deck, crashing and burning
    gracefully, hot cocoa....it's all coming back to me now.
    
    .....er, sorry, got carried away....wrong notes conference....
    
    *<(8*)|
    
    Cindy

    Gee Thanks, John. 
    
    
    From the death of the harvest, comes life in the spring.
    
    Meg

    Oops, you're right, y'all.  I meant equinox (unless that is what
    you get if you cross a horse with an ox).
    
    Hope it was happy.
    
    
    
    John M.

    re .21:
    
    > ... if you cross a horse with an ox).
            
    you get:
    
    
    A cross ox! :-)
    
    
    Oxen don't breed.  They can't.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    I think that in light of the festivities that we should all chip
    in and buy John Mitchell, our resident Disney channeler a subscription 
    to 'New Age Journal' or some other relevant New Age publication.
                            
    Or would you prefer a Mickey Mouse T-shirt.....?
    
    (;^)
                      
    Cindy

I could do with a nice crystal, Cindy...



...as in diamond, ruby, or emerald!  :-)


John M.

    RE: .25
    
    Tell you what.  Why don't you keep your quartz and take me out for
    a few pints?  ;-)
    
    
    
    John M.

    re .12 (Pat)
    
    The name of the book is _Eight_Sabbats_for_Witches_, by Stewart
    and Janet Ferrar.
    
    Witches don't have Sabbaths - we have Sabbats.
    
    Elizabeth

    Re .27:
    
    >Witches don't have Sabbaths - we have Sabbats.
    
    Wiccans and other white witches have Sabbats.  The black kind have
    Sabbaths.
    
    An interesting way to differentiate 'em.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE  .26
    
    Let's go!  You can help me root the Tigers on to a pennant victory
    against the wicked Toronto Blue Jays.
    
    "yes, and maybe it's the time of year
     and maybe it's the time of man
     and I don't know who I am,
     but life is for learning."
    
    CSN, Woodstock
    
    
    DW

    re .29:
    
    I'm rooting for the Cubs.  They are only (I think) 18 games out.
    Let's go for a *real* challenge!
    
    :^)
    
    Elizabeth

    RE: Wiccan Sabbat
    
    Pronounced how?
    
    Interesting about "H"'s - Put one on the end, you got a Christian
    thing, put one at the beginning, you got a Jewish thing, take it
    out, you got a Wiccan thing....
    
    Dawn
    

    RE: 27
    
      I typed that reply at work and did not have the book in front of
      me.  I do know the difference, I just made a mistake in typing.
    
    PAT

    
    re: Divine origin of the H
    
    Heh counts for two of the four letters of the Tetragrammaton.
    

    re .33:
    
    Were you going to title that "heh-heh"? :-D
    
    Interestingly, the Tetragrammaton [YHWH or JHWH] is purely consonantal,
    [unless you insist in treating "Y" as a vowel] whereas various
    derivations of the name of a Supreme Being are based on vowel sounds;
    especially the Gravesian derivation (from _The White Goddess_) and
    the ultimate god of the ancient Egyptians (Uay [more or less, with
    character limitations]; "neter" meaning any god), who was alluded
    to but not worshipped directly (apparently the Egyptian gods did
    that).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr. 

RE: .34
    
    That raises an interesting thought:  Since classical Hebrew doesn't
    have true vowels, a pure-vowel name-of-the-Supreme-Being would have
    to be spelled as a blank.  Think of the mystic significance of that.
    
RE: .33
    
    Actually, though I don't speak/write/read Hebrew I'm pretty sure
    that Shabbas (various transliterations) doesn't contain a HEH.  The
    sound transliterated with "sh" in English is I think the single
    letter "shin" in Hebrew.  Sabbath and Sabbat are both derived (through
    intermediaries) from the Hebrew.
    
    					Topher

    
    re: .35
    
    Right, Topher, one would not combine an S sound and an H sound to
    get SH in Hebrew...it's shin, which looks a bit like a fiery W.
    Shin is one of the three Mother letters from which the rest of the
    22 letters in the alphabet are derived (the other two are Aleph
    and Mem, I think, or maybe it's Yod and Mem...).
    
    In Qabala the four letters of the Tetragrammaton are assigned to
    fire, air, water, and earth. If I remember correctly, the last Heh
    looks different from the first Heh - Heh final is closed on the
    bottom, resembling a weathered box, while Heh is open on the bottom
    (been a while since I looked at any Hebrew...).
    
    Tananda

    The first syllable of Sabbat is pronounced like the first syllable
    of Sabbath.  The second syllable is pronounced BAT, like the flying
    rodent.  The accent is on the first syllable.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    Re .35:
    
    >That raises an interesting thought:  Since classical Hebrew doesn't
    >have true vowels, a pure-vowel name-of-the-Supreme-Being would have
    >to be spelled as a blank.  Think of the mystic significance of that.
     
    Actually, wouldn't there have been spoken vowels?  If classical
    _written_ Hebrew has no true vowels and the Name was nopthing _but_
    vowels, the significance would be that it couldn't be written directly;
    that in turn could have led to the tradition that it _shouldn't_
    be written directly, which in turn would lead to a belief/tradition
    that it shouldn't be written or spoken.  I find it noteworthy that
    when I've seen references to the Supreme Being by Jewish writers
    who feel it's improper to spell out "God," they drop the vowel,
    thus: "G-d."
    
    St-v- K-ll-s, Jr.
    [just kidding, folks :-D]

    
    
    Though we are straying from the topic of this note, I did want to
    share that we have worked with the symbology of the letters Aleph 
    and Shin quite a bit in my church.  The Aleph symbolizing the 
    silence before you speak, a silence that is totally full - the Shin
    symbolizing the shattering, the breaking apart of structures that
    no longer are working and allowing for rebuilding.  I find it very
    interesting that the symbol of the Shin looks very much like the
    symbol used for the planet Uranus, whose symbology matches that
    of the Shin in astrological terms.
    
    Carole
    

    
    re: .-1, others
    
    Carole, sounds like an interesting church!
    
    Written Hebrew _does_ have vowels...they are placed under the letter
    and are pronounced after the sound of that letter.
    
    re: saBAT...in Hebrew one would say either SHA-bas or sha-BAT,
    depending on whether the Sephardic or Aszkenazi (never could spell
    that one!) convention was being used.
    
    Tananda
    

RE: .40
    
    That's why I said "classical" Hebrew (yes, Steve, I should have
    said classical *written* Hebrew).  The "vowel marks" are a modern
    invention.  Besides, with a word/name without consonents, there
    wouldn't be anything to put the vowel marks *on*.
    
    					Topher

    RE: .37  Thank' yoo_  (pitcure diacritical marks)  :-)
    
    RE: last several 
    
    Gee, this conference is great, even when we get 'way off the topic!
    I *love* this place!
    
    Dawn
    

    re .35
    
    Shabbat is spelled shin, bet, tov in Hebrew.
    

    re .40
    
    The sub linear vowels were invented around 200-300 c.e. by Rabbis
    in the Babylonian yeshivot. They also aranged the verses in tanach,
    to form the socalle Maseritic Text. Masertic is from the Hebrew
    M'Surah which means traditional or what is received. 
    
    Hebrew in Isreal is rarely pointed. Only "foreign" words which are
    transliterated are pointed (voweled).  A Hebrew reader would know
    from context what the vowels ought to be.  We have that in English.
    For example.
    
    	Wntd. Thr Rm Frn Apt Nr Sbwy.
    
    A form of shorthand called speed writing makes use of the fact that
    most vowels in words that appear in context, are redundant..
    

    
    This wasn't really deserving  of a whole new topic, so I put it here
    "to all you pagans...."

    A friend of a friend is doing this, and requests responses to her
    within a week, if you wish to respond.
    

-------cut here-------

Date: Thu, 7 Nov 91 18:10:49 -0500
From: omalley1@husc.harvard.edu (Elena O'Malley)
Subject: Re: pagans and such

My name is Elena O'Malley.  I am an undergraduate at Harvard University
taking a class called Folklore and Mythology 108.  I am writing a paper
for this class on the subject of the differences between the perceptions
of Neo-pagan women and men about their beliefs.  This paper will not
be published, and any notes or transcipts having to do with this paper
will be viewed only by myself.  If, for some reason, this situation
changes, I will ask your permission to release any data you have 
given me.  Unless you request otherwise, you will be arbitrarily
assigned a letter of the alphabet (i.e. Informant C) if you or the
information you give me is referred to anywhere in the paper.
You do not have to answer all the questions, but please provide as much
explanation as you can to the questions you do answer.  Any information is
helpful.

1. Gender

2. Age

3. What do you call your religion/organization/belief system, and what
   is your (official) position within it?

4. How long have you been a part of this religion/organization/belief
   system?

5. How did you become involved?  (Did a person inform you, did you
   read about it, brought up that way, create it yourself?)

6. What were you before?

7. Are you part of a group, or is your practice/beliefs solitary?  
   If yes, what is the group organization, and how or by whom is
   the group led?

8. Are you part of a national/international movement?  (Is it
   primarily political or religious, or other?) 

9. If your religion/belief system/organization is religious, do you
   have gender-specific deities?  Who or what are they?

10. Do you worship a deity or deities because of its/his/her/their gender?

11. How do you perceive, or do you in fact perceive, gender roles as being
    different from your previous religion/belief system/organization or
    surrounding society?  (Or how are your perceptions different from those
    around you?)

12. Do you find yourself assigned or choosing roles in your religion/belief
    system/organization based on your gender?

13. Are there any rituals/beliefs/practices that are gender-specific in your
    religion/belief system/organization?

14. Do you feel at all persecuted, either within your religion/belief system/
    organization because of your gender, or outside your religion/belief
    system/organization because of your religion/belief system/organization.
    (Also, if relevant, how does your family view your religion/belief system/
     organization?)

15. Is there anything (gender-related or otherwise) you think I have not
    considered and want to comment on?  If so, please feel free.

16. Any questions or confusions?  Please contact me if so.  I apologize for
    the wordiness of some of the questions, but I am not entirely sure of
    what the word "pagan" means to different people.  If you've gotten
    this far, thank you for your time and cooperation.

Elena O'Malley
3 Sacramento Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
USA
(617) 493-6634
omalley1@husc.harvard.edu


% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======

RE: .45

    Note, to reply to this from a VMS system on the ENet, you can send
    your response to:

	DECWRL::"omalley1@husc.harvard.edu"

    Note the quote marks.  If you are sending direct from the DCL line,
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					Topher