Conference hydra::dejavu

    It isn't just in this conference, its everywhere.
    
    Down under its on the roads, and believe me everybody has noticed,
    its people, all being pushy, negative, finding problems hard to
    cope with.
    
    I have been told that we all have to pull our socks up and get it
    together before the year 2000.  The negativity can take over -
    everywhere - but if enough positive thought and light is around
    then it won't have a chance.  Check it out, throw positive thoughts
    everywhere and see what a difference it makes.
    
    I don't mean this to be heavy, but this is like the dark before
    the storm.  
    
    ....dale

    I see it as a readjustment to the Harmonica Virgins media bliz.
    While many are expecting great things others are more rational when
    confronted with apparently fantastic claims.
    
    It is unfortunate that a backlash is occuring which pours into other
    areas but that is to be expected when claims of this magnitude are
    placed under the public microscope for scrunity.
    
    I've said in recent years that belief systems are (somewhat parasitic)
    entities (of a non-mystical order) when they overlay human
    intelligence. Don't you think they'ed compete for human energies? 
              
    So don't be lazy gang. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
    

    I feel  there  has been an increase.  I'm not sure why.  I've seen it
happen in other  conferences.  I think it just happens occasionally, this
conference is no exception.  Some of the more passionate debates are good
reading, but personal attacks don't belong in any conference.
    Jay

    Perhaps...   It has been discussed at length, here and elsewhere, that
    electronic communication needs a new ettiquette.

    Studies have bendone on electronic communications, such as this.
    They indicate that opinions seem to be expressed more, ummmmm,
    forcefully,in this sort of forum, than face to face.  There is a
    lack of the usual feedback mechanisms as to possible misintepretation,
    which can lead to polarization.  Also, given the "public access"
    nature of these files, there can be an element of frustration in
    not being able to walk away from a discussion.  This, too, can lead
    to polarization.
    
    This is a new form/forum of communication we are learning to use.
    I feel it is neccesary for all to be aware that we ARE learning.
    This may be comounded by the growth of interest in, and participation
    in, notes files.
    
    thanks
    dave pierson

    
    
    I have definitely been aware of an "underlying" agitation with
    people in many different situations, not only this conference.
    Actually, I was getting quite concerned that it was going to
    undermine the quality of noting that DEJAVU had acquired, and
    it did to a small extent.  
             
    
    From my perspective, it looks like all the "cr*p" is getting
    stirred up to the surface so that the cleansing process can
    proceed, and also so that we get a good, clear look at it.
    
    Carole
    

    Re .0:
    
    Interesting, that this morning before I accessed DEJAVU I was seriously
    considering starting a "Disharmonic Divergence" note because I've
    perceived the fraying of nerves from some ordinarily tranquil persons,
    as much here as elsewhere; indeed, perhaps even a little _more_
    here than elsewhere.
    
    A bit of it could be attributed to "DECWORLD '87 nerves," I suppose
    (I didn't realize how much I was on edge until, after running on
    nearly no sleep for a couple of days, I discovered the night before
    last that I _couldn't_ sleep more than 3.5 hours); but that's not
    the whole story.  Some of it locally is meteorological, but there's
    something else going on.
    
    However, being _aware_ of it going on is the first step to putting
    it to rest.
    
    My formula:  when your temper starts to slip, stop and 1) give the
    benefit of the doubt to an intent [short of a physical attack :-)],
    2) be _honestly_ polite [yes, sometimes difficult, but you'll be
    a better person for it, even if you think the person you're being
    polite to is missing a few whatevers], and 3) put any disagreements
    simply, concisely, and objectively; don't mix in emotions [one never
    has posiotive emotions when one's temper is about to slip].  Also,
    avoid being confrontational.
    
    As I've said elsewhere, less heat brings more light.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    
    	I think we are beginning an historic shakedown of religions,
    philosophies and beliefs.   Perhaps the convergence was a
    turning point in this?    I think the future will in fact prove
    some people right and some wrong, as California does/doesn't
    slide into the ocean, as other prophecized events do/don't
    happen....
    
    	So what we see is the last chance to defend the failing
    ideologies.    The power structure may change, but not 
    without arguement and controversy.   A person rationalizing
    their own beliefs, can often make the loudest arguements
    right before changing their mind.

    	Alan.

    I believe the best way to enter any situation is to let it happen
    and turn anything in to a positive experience, to many people are
    looking at the negative side of thing now a days.
    
    I use to look at things negatively a got negative results, now that
    I look at everything in a positive way, making the best of everything
    life is much easier to handle.
    

    Re .10:
    
    Well, at least that was neither angry nor confrontational. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    I've also noticed a bit of negative energy floating around here.
    It's a shame cos' I'm sure that would keep a few people from putting
    in their own input.  Not everyone cares to be sneered at.
    
    The last urge I felt to enter a burning reply, I slept on it and
    felt differently in the morning.  
    
    We will overcome.
    
    Theresa.

    I have been a bit stressed out lately because, as near as I can
    tell, of a number of individually minor and quite mundane non-occult
    things (e.g., becoming a father for the first time after 36 years
    of *not* having someone completely helpless depend on me).
    
    Like Carole, I have been "concerned that it was going to undermine
    the qualitiy of noting that DEJAVU had acquired".  As one of the
    long time proponents of "rationality" in DEJAVU, it particularly
    bother(s)(ed) me when it comes from someone who is representing
    put-down and intollerance of other people's beliefs as rationality.
    
    I have reacted in several cases unwisely.  Where I feel that I was
    actually unfair to someone, I have appologized.
    
    This is a formal appology to the DEJAVU community for exacerbating
    the situation in trying to fix it.  I'll try to keep my peace or
    at least keep it "off line", in the future.
    
    					Topher

    I have noticed a certain edginess in people that seems to have
    intensified of late. I have the impression that things are getting
    closer to whatever it is we seem to be approaching, and friends
    that I have that are more in touch with what is going on, say that
    "things are intensifying, God is coming closer to all of us, and
    people are becoming more able to see the things in their lives
    that are out of harmony with Him, are becoming uncomfortable,
    and will become INCREASINGLY uncomfortable until some changes are
    made." 
    
    I think a problem arises when the debate changes from a discussion
    of the topic being debated, to a personal conflict between the
    debaters. Anyone who has been on a debate team knows this is a definite
    no-no. Given the highly personal nature of the things discussed
    here, it is more likely that someone is going to touch a nerve and
    set someone off...if the resulting debate is intelligent and logical,
    and confines itself to the subject being debated, the results can
    be, as was said before, interesting reading.  I've certainly learned
    a lot lately, and plan to leave as little emotion and as much logic
    as possible in my future discussions...
    
    If you think the topics in this conference are going to always be
    discussed tranquilly and lovingly, as I wish they could be, I would
    remind you of what has happened to most of the prophets in the past
    who have lifted veils from people's eyes, and usually paid with
    their lives. 
    
    An example of what I'm talking about...
    
    THIS JESUS MUST DIE (from Jesus Christ Superstar)
    
    Good Caiaphas, the council waits for you
    The Pharisees and priests are here for you
    Ah gentlemen, you know why we are here
    We've not much time,and quite a problem here
    (Crowd outside)
    Hossana superstar
    Hossana superstar
    (Annas)
    Listen to that howling mob of blockheads in the street
    A trick or two with lepers, and the whole town's on its feet!
    He is dangerous!
    He is dangerous!
    (Priest 1)
    The man is in town right now to whip up some support
    A rabble rousing mission that I think we must abort
    He is dangerous!
    Look, Caiaphas, they're right outside our yard
    Quick, Caiaphas, go call the Roman guard!
    No wait...we need a more permanent solution to our problem...
    (Annas)
    What then to do about Jesus of Nazereth?
    Miracle wonderman, hero of fools?
    No riots, no army, no fighting, no slogans
    (Caiaphas)
    One thing I'll say for him, Jesus is cool
    We dare not leave him to his own devices
    his half-witted fans will get out of control
    But how can we stop him? His glamour increases
    by leaps every minute; he's top of the poll.
    I see bad things arising; the crowd crown him king which the Romans
    would ban
    I see blood and destruction
    Our elimination because of one man
    Blood and destruction because of one man
    Because, because because of one man
    What then to do about this Jesusmania?
    How do we deal with the carpenter king?
    Where do we start with a man who is bigger
    Than John was when John did his baptism thing?
    (Caiaphas)
    Fools! You have no perception.
    The stakes we are gambling are frightenly high
    We must crush him completely
    So like John before him this Jesus must die
    For the sake of the nation, this Jesus must die
    
    DW

    
    There is an "up side", however.  I have noticed a number of people
    spouting off and then, to one degree or another, re-thinking and
    re-stateing their view.  I have seen some folks come off their high
    horse and I expect this will cause others to perhaps re-evaluate
    their stand.  One must get up on that high horse before one can
    get off of it, so to speek.  Letting the entire process be viewed
    here in a public forum can show that everybody is human and therefore
    cause us to look inside for a similarly flawed but none the less
    ok person.
    
    Marion

    RE: .13
    
    Ditto for me!
    
    DW

    re:  .16  and my note .15
    
    See what I mean?
    
    Marion
    

     I see it as an increase in energy level and the way in which people
    deal with it.Its like increasing the pressure in a water line,if
    you control the flow and channel it in a positive way,you will be
    better off,rather than letting it spill everywhere.
    
     PEACE
     MICHAEL
    

    
    
    
    and as an additional aside....
    
    congratulations, Topher (and to your wife), and for your little
    one...Welcome to the world!
    
    Carole
    

    Re: .18
    When pressure builds up, sometimes you need a release valve.
    
    It's amazing that we've gone through 19 replies without anyone
    disagreeing!  Is this a record or something? 8^)
    
    Dave

    RE:  .20
    
    I disagree that it is a record.  ;^)
    
    Marion

    Re .20, .21:
    
    >I disagree that it is a record.  ;^)
    
    Well, it isn't _exactly_ a record; it's a Note. :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    With so many replies in such a short time, it really must be
    noticeable to everyone!
    
    I also agree that the energy level of the Earth is at a very
    high level -- it seems that whatever a person "used to be"
    has now been intensified two-fold.  Fortunately for those of
    us who are more spiritual people, that has helped in our search 
    for love and peace in our lives.
    
    We can only try to help those less peaceful than ourselves,
    though this probably entails much tongue-biting/refraining...
    Good practice for NOTES...  Public ATTACKS against another
    person is needless, **ESPECIALLY** in DEJAVU.  :-)
    
    Let's concentrate on the positive and help to enlighten each
    other.  Isn't that why we're all here??
    
    *8-)
    
    Carla
    
    Carla

    We haven't heard from our discanate visitor from OtherRealms...
    
    Wha' do ya' think Pandy?

    
    For those of you who know the other notes conference I've been in
    lately........
    
    This conference is a sight for sore eyes!  Just doing some Friday
    night catchup here and glad to be back.
    
    Yes, resident skeptics and all (hiya John! (:^), this is a nice place 
    to be.  Besides what would life be like without a lot of diversity 
    which is precisely what this type of an environment fosters.  I'm here 
    for the differences, not the similarities, because this environment 
    is the best way of learning new ideas and thinking about things we 
    might not have ever been exposed to otherwise.
    
    A (very small) request for tolerance - now, more than ever, I realize
    that the only way we are ever going to achieve peace on this Earth
    is if we can manage to get along one to one - REGARDLESS of the
    medium.  I believe the rest of you out there in DEJAVUland realize
    that too...otherwise you'd have probably deleted the entry from
    your notebook by now.
    
    Peace - mixed with love,
    
    Cindy 

    
    When the red-faced, arm-waving "disagreements" disappear from DEJAVU,
    so will I.
    
    I've always believed that the closer you come to a truth, the more
    uncomfortable you become. And I *know* that when long-established
    belief patterns are challenged, they employ a variety of defense
    mechanisms to survive, including, it seems, note-sniping.
    
    I know it sometimes is infuriating to read what appear to be
    half-witted sarcastic nonsenses, but keep in mind that the author
    has put a *message* in his or her words: We must learn to separate
    the fact from the emotion. This a useful tool in real life, also
    (as opposed to notes life). I don't mean that we should become
    non-emoting, just that we should listen to what someone is saying,
    not how it is being said. It's the aural equivalent of don Juan's
    "seeing."
    
    So...fire at Will! (Duck, Will, duck!)
    
    Tananda
    

    I found something last night that I read years ago, that describes
    a time very similar to ours that occured around the last golden
    period of the Roman Empire (no, I won't get political)...I think
    we as a species are approaching a time of reckoning (heavy duty
    stuff...enough to put anyone on edge) I certainly feel it and see it,
    and I know others do too.  I will also add that I think the
    fundamentalist Christians are way, way off base in their expectations
    and anticipations.  
    
    So...here it goes...this Marcus Aurelius guy was all right.  Sorry
    for the length, but it's interesting reading in this day and age.
    See also reply .8 in this note.
    
    PREFACE TO "MEDITATIONS" BY MARCUS AURELIUS, CLASSICS CLUB LIBRARY
    EDITION, quoted without permission; no author is given credit for
    this preface.
    
    *******************************************************************
    
    The reign of Marcus Aurelius (161-180 A.D.) marked the close of
    the good period of the Antonine emperors, under whom Rome reached
    the height of her imperial dominion and administrative efficiency.
    He died fighting the restive barbarians on the Danube frontier
    and was buried not far from the site of what we now call Vienna.
    Under his son, the dissolute Commodus, the political decline set
    in that eventually ended in the collapse of the centuries-old imperial
    structure in the West and its replacement by the raw, unstable,
    barbaric kingdoms of Italy, Spain, France, and England.
      Already, in the lifetime of Marcus Aurelius, the intellectual
    atmosphere in the magnificent capital of his empire was confused
    and clouded. The old confident assurance that prosperity and happiness
    lay in keeping faithful to the gods and the traditions of the ancestors
    was noticeably wavering. The stately ceremonies and customs handed
    down from the past were still punctiliously and lavishly performed
    in public, as signs of gratitude to whatever had formerly made Rome
    great and as a means of impressing the multitude. But few educated
    men now took them seriously. Their minds had been trained from youth
    in the schools of Greek philosophy, and Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus,
    and the Stoic Zeno, each had his following. But not even the
    illustrious philosophers received the unquestioning veneration that
    once they had had. They spoke, after all, with too discordant voices
    and out of a past too long departed. The Skeptics, who doubted that
    any philosopher ever had or ever could fathom the world's mystery,
    attracted many who scornfully refused to imagine certainties where
    none existed.
       Other men were fatalistically accepting the astrological lore
    brought from the ancient East. If the eternal, all-seeing stars
    were the causes of everything that happened in this transitory scene
    below, what could anyone do but resign himself and submit? Others
    still were turning for comfort to a new type of religion, also brought
    from the East, the cults of Isis, of Mithras, and of Christ.  These
    all in their several ways taught faith in a god of pity, repentance
    from sin, and hope of a heavenly immortality. Outwardly Rome still
    stood, more resplendent and apparently more unshakeable than ever.
    Inwardly she was in a state of mental and spiritual flux. The old
    order was losing its hold on men's minds and the new order was yet
    far off.
       This book contains the writings of three men of the period, each
    eminent in his own circle at Rome, which illustrate for us the conflict
    of beliefs that is a characteristic feature of the age. The
    "Meditations" of the emperor show how latter-day Stoicism could
    stilil inspire a high-minded ruler to do his duty with fortitude
    and patience. The dialogues of Lucian, the rhetorician, are a Skeptic's
    devastating exposure of the weakness of all the old philosophies
    and beliefs. The works of Justin Martyr, the Christian, are full
    of the fervor and excitement of a convert from paganism, convinced
    he has a new and uniquely divine message to proclaim to mankind.
    
    ********************************************************************
    
    So, this is not the first time that the old order has been shook
    up,and the new order shook the world as it settled in.  We're feeling
    the first tremors, folks.
    
    DW
    
    *********************************************************************
    
    Oh, people, look around you, the signs are everywhere
    You've left it for someone other than you to be the one to care
    You're lost inside your houses; there's no time to find you now
    Oh your walls are burnin', and your towers are turnin'
    
    Jackson Browne, "Rock Me on the Water"
    
    Don't you feel it growin', day by day; people gettin ready for the
    news
    Some are happy, some are sad
    
    The Doobie Brothers
    
    Somethin's happening in America
    Can you feel it? Can you feel it comin'
    
    KBC band (Kantner, Balin, and Casady...remember? They're back)
    
    Wind starting to howl
    The beast is on the prowl
    Can you hear his strange cry? Winds of change are blowin' by.
    
    Jefferson Starship
    
    People, get ready; there's a train a comin'
    Picking up passengers from coast to coast
    
    Traditional
    
    Now I've been smiling lately thinkin' about the good things to come
    and I believe it could be something good has begun
    Cause out on the edge of darkness, there rides a peace train
    Oh, peace train, take this country
    Come take me home again
    
    Peace Train, Sounding Louder
    
    Cat Stephens; "Peace Train"
    

    
    And the BEATLES!  Don't forget the BEATLES!
    
    - All you need is love.
    - Imagine
    - Etc.

    re .27
    I think you've just expressed what many of us have been feeling
    on an intuitive level for awhile now.  And yea,.. it sure does make
    one edgy.

    re: .31
    
    Start cheap, Maybe a few microVaxes w/PCs at home (are you still
    reading Ed?)  There was a recent discussion about this in Tem Noon's
    Cabin.
    
    Re: ~.27
    
    Remember that if we do not learn from our history, we are destined
    to repeat it.  It is a scary thought.
    
    Dave

    RE: .32
    
    One of the biggest stress factors in my life is the fact that we
    are not learning from history, and I sometimes feel like walking
    up to people and shaking them, to get them to realize that there
    are a great many things going on that are alarming enough that people
    should be much more concerned than they are. Did you read my BABYLON
    note? Better yet, go out and buy the album "No Protection" (Starship's
    most recent) and listen to the song; something about Grace's voice
    touches a chord inside me, and she sings "Babylon" in a way that
    would stir anyone to action.  She's got more vocal power now than she
    did 20 years ago, and at least she's still trying to "change the
    world" where so many of her generation have sold out to the system
    and are now the very people that I (and many others my age) are
    trying to get to remember some of the things they used to
    feel...because the situation now is even more urgent than it was
    then...looking at the big picture,I mean;I realize we don't have a war
    going on now.                            
    
    DW

    Once again, I have said something in the fervor of the moment, that
    I really could have said better.  "Sold out" is not the way that
    I should have put that (in .33); perhaps "got sucked up into" would
    be a better way of putting it.
    
    I firmly believe that many of the things you dreamed about back
    then are now coming into the realm of realistic possibility; you had
    the right ideas back then, but the time wasn't right.  
    
    
    "There were a half a million people on the lawn, 
     And we sang to the faces in the dawn"
    
    Mexico/GS

    nicely said

    sometimes the Light's all shinin' on me
    other times I can barely see

    I have an idea of what's going on, from an astrological point of
    view.  The question I'd like to ask the DEJAVUers is:
    
    	How old are you? (What's your chronological age?)
    
    I believe that many of us probably fall between the ages of 30 and
    50.  A long time span, you might say, but those 20 years contain
    the most intense growth-ful and consciousness expanding transits
    of adult life, with a heavy concentration of them around age 40.
    Here's what they, in more or less chronological order (because of
    Pluto's and Chiron's eccentric orbits, their intermediate aspects
    are hard to time--a little different for everyone):
    
    	1st Saturn Return	30
    
    		Life gets "real"; important decisions about direction
    		often made; may tear up old structures and start over
    
    	3rd Jupiter Return	35
    
    		The first "itch" after the settling in of the Saturn
    		Return; "is there maybe something more?  What _is_
    		Truth, anyway?"
    
	2nd Lunar Node Return	36-37
    
    		Interest in "something more" intensifies; if one
    		happens on some "Truth" now, can become quite fixed.
    
	1st Chiron Opposition	30-36
    
    		Desire to link up material and spiritual sides of
    		life; new talents start to blossom; perhaps very
    		subtle.
    
    	1st Uranus Opposition	39-41
    
    		This is the biggie--"mid-life crisis" time.  If the
    		Jupiter, Nodal and Chiron transits have been brushed
    		off, this "now or never" desire for change can
    		manifest with great force.  Often a desire for
    		revolution, rather than evolution.
    
    	1st Pluto Square	40's (for those born after late 1930's)
    
    		This square happened much later (in their 60's) for
    		people born much earlier in this century.  Happening
    		around the same time as the Uranus Opposition, it
    		intensifies the "now or never" element; mortality
    		may be felt very accutely.  Desires for empowerment
    		can become intense, especially if one has neglected
    		that side of the self.  Time of possible sense of
    		loss, or of real losses as whatever is not needed
    		for further personal growth is shed.
    
    	1st Neptune Square	40's
    
    		Confuses the issue.  Uranus and Pluto are clamoring
    		for change, and you can't figure out what precisely
    		to do--only that your life must mean something.
    		Can sometimes help focus the spiritual unrest that
    		was part of the Jupiter, Chiron and Nodal transits.
    
    	1st Chiron Return	50-51
    
    		Born again.  If you've struggled hard to integrate
    		all the new facets of Self that have emerged in 
    		the 40's, this is often a time of awakening to 
    		peace and renewal.  If the 40's have been spent
    		crushing the changes that were struggling for
    		birth in the Self, people can start to wither.
    
    
    With all this going on, is it any wonder that people become confused,
    frustrated, scattered, perhaps frantic in their own personal searches?
    To make matters feel worse, there's "nothing" physical to "blame"
    it all on.  I feel the upheavals of the teenage years are considered
    more "normal", in part, because of the tremendous, hormonally driven,
    physical changes that take place.  What do we have to "logically"
    explain away the crisis in our souls now?  No wonder some of us
    feel so bad, so strange.  No wonder we sometimes end up locked in
    arguments for which their is no solution.
    
    And I also feel that, like teenagers (or anyone, for that matter)
    we tend to hang out with people our own age, who are undergoing 
    the same experiences--and to then feel that the Whole World is 
    undergoing our experiences of upheaval and distress.
    
    So it may help to understand the contentiousness, the arguments,
    the misunderstandings, as symptoms of growing pains.  We're growing
    up!  Finally!  Is it sometimes difficult?  (Is the Pope Polish?)
    I feel that the increased vigor in the discussions and arguments 
    is not, in and of itself, negative.  It is, in fact, tremendously 
    positive, like the aches that occur in muscles long disused when 
    we become active again.  It only becomes negative if we operate 
    from a value system that says that any and all display of unrest 
    is negative.  It's not.  It's for many of us the first step towards 
    actualisation, and perhaps a little compassion for ourselves and 
    others in the same boat is in order.
    
    And let's argue all we want.  Hey, I believe that there's "something
    more" than was written on the pages of my biology and chemistry
    texts.  But being forced to examine, to question, even to defend
    my views and experiences keeps me from becoming a mental slob. 
    It forces me to think!  Like the exercise that I inflict [;-)] 
    on my body in order to keep from becoming a physical slob, it is
    not always pleasant.  But it keeps me growing.
    
    Does this strike a bell with anyone out there?
    
    Marcia

    RE: .37
    
    Interesting, but what is Chiron?
    
    John M.
    
    Hmmmm.... Can you guess what my sign is?

    How about Virgo with Taurus rising and moon in Capricorn?
    
    I am an Aries with Aquarius rising and moon in Pisces.
    
    DW

    re: .37
    
    Hey, I'm 27! Granted I am now questioning myself and my direction
    as you said, but my questions would categorize me in my 40's according
    to your chart.  (My God! What is my mid-life crisis going to be
    like! ;-)
    
    I would like to share a story with you.  A few weeks ago, I was
    drinking in Boston with two friends (The Commonwealth Brewery) when
    our discussion started to focus on life.  One of my friends commented
    that he started to wonder what the meaning of it all was.  He felt
    that he was reaching a crisis in his life (he's 25).  My comment,
    which was also shared with my other friend was "Are you telling
    me you're twenty five years old and this is your first crisis?"
    
    We always feel the way you described, it isn't a matter of age, but
    of day.  When I stop worrying about life is when I should start
    worrying about myself.
    
    Dave

     Marcia,

     Your note provides important and valid information for all of us to 
     consider on a personal level.  Having turned 40 this year, I can
     vouch for the Saturn return, the Jupiter return, and the Uranus
     opposition (will let you know about the Pluto and Neptune squares!).
     However, there is also the evolutionary cycle of humanity as a whole, 
     and that of the earth as well.  I really do feel that the cycle has 
     just shifted into 5th gear and, whether we like it or not, we have 
     taken off!  The combination of all of this at work at the same time 
     has got to have it's manifested effects.  All we have to do is look
     to see it.  

     Carole

     

>>   All we have to do is look to see it.  

     And act accordingly . . .
     
     								Hans (42)

    
    
    re:  42
    
    ...agreed!
    
    C.
    

RE: .39 (DW)

Well, you got the Virgo part right (how could you tell ;-)), but I don't know
enough about astrology to comment on the Taurus rising and moon in Capricorn
part.  Does that fit in with a birthdate of 9/9/54? 

    
John M.

    
    
    John,
    
    Having the time and place of birth would be required to calculate
    the rising sign.  If you were born in the very early morning
    hours, you _do_ have a Capricorn moon!  From the quick checking
    I did, there is no way to have both a Capricorn moon and Taurus
    rising on that day.  Now, if someone wrote down the wrong day
    and you were born late in the day on the 8th, it's another story!
    
    Carole
    

    These are just some ramblings on some of the astrological questions
    and comments that were made in the last 8 or so replies.
    
    <Interesting, but what is Chiron?>

    Chiron is a minor planet, discovered in 1977.  It orbits between
    Saturn and Uranus and has an orbital period of 50 years.  It has
    a _very_ elliptical orbit; it spends only a year in some signs,
    up to 8 years in others.  This means that the timing of the square
    and oppositions (the intermediate transits) for each individual
    varies tremendously.  There have been quite a few books speculating
    on its significance since the early 80's.  Some have felt that 
    Chiron, rather than Jupiter, rules Sagittarius.  The most recent 
    book I've seen on it believes that it rules the sign Virgo (which 
    would make it a very important planet for you, with your Virgo 
    Sun :-)).  I have been putting it into charts since July, and trying 
    out its supposed Virgo rulership, and the intuition that this is 
    correct is stronger every day.  Virgo is the sign representing the
    process of mastery, and Chiron seems to be the drive to master.

    The author of the Chiron-rules-Virgo book also believes that its
    main function (or soul urge that it represents) is to prod us to
    link up our material selves with the cosmic, spiritual sides of
    ourselves.  Operates as a kind of catalyst, if you will.  Not
    necessarily comfortable while it's happening, either.

    My own feeling, too, is that wherever it is in our charts is a
    place and an area of life that we feel driven to learn by doing,
    by direct experiences of all kind.  There is the feeling in these
    areas that we have to _get it right_.  And the compulsion to repeat
    experiences over and over until we do.

    It is interesting to note that during the Harmonic Convergence
    Chiron was in a very significant position, directly opposite the
    point of the Zodiac that points to the galactic center.
    
    
    <Hmmmm.... Can you guess what my sign is?>

    Sigh . . . I'm lamentably inept at those games, as intuitive as
    a potato.  (I wonder what sign of the Zodiac rules potatoes?)  I 
    know others who are brilliant, one of whom at least correctly guessed
    your Sun sign.  But me, well . . . no.


    <Hey, I'm 27!>

    Perhaps I should have backed things up a few years, but I was focusing
    on what happens after age 30, and focusing on transits only.

    I left out progressions.  At 26-27-28 a _very_ significant event
    occurs called the progressed Lunar Return.  It operates like a
    forerunner to the Saturn return that occurs a couple years later.
    It was, for me, the time when I suddenly _emotionally_ acknowledged 
    myself as an adult (the Moon is said to rule emotions) and really 
    began to "take the weight of the world on my shoulders".  I felt 
    like a woman, no longer a girl.  I finally got my driver's license, 
    opened a part-time business, changed jobs within Digital, had my 
    first marriage crisis, became phobic, developed numerous psychomatic 
    illnesses.

    Now my life up to that point had certainly not been uneventful.
    But I had sort of ridden the waves, so to speak.  I was definitely
    _not_ used to being _aware_ of the waves.  My personality (which
    my natal chart backs up) does not predispose me to that type of
    continual experience.  Perhaps other people's personalities/charts
    do, but certainly not everyone's.

    23-25 are an interesting few years too--the 2nd Jupiter Return 
    falls in that time frame.  That certainly marked a time of life 
    that was event-ful for me:  I married, left school (without
    graduating), tore up my roots in Hawaii (where I'd lived for 8 
    years) and moved up here, got pregnant, miscarried, changed 
    professions.  Looking back, I think I survived those years by being
    basically unconcsious.  My personality can operate like that.  But 
    someone who is predisposed to awareness will consciously experience 
    what happens to them, rather than just turtling up.  For anyone 
    with an active or stressed Jupiter in his/her chart, the returns 
    can often bring on a crisis in consciousness, a sudden longing for 
    growth and expansion which can, if smothered or checked, become 
    very frustrating.  Depending on their natural tendencies, people 
    may or may not feel it this way, and if they do feel it, in varying 
    degrees of intensity.
    
    Boy, this sure did ramble.  Sorry 'bout that.

    RE: .46
    
    Potatoes are ruled by Pluto, god of the underworld.   
    
    
    John M.

    <Capricorn on the cob>
    
    Hmmm . . . my Sun is in Capricorn.  Is being chomped in my future?
    ;-)
    
    Marcia

    
    (Geez John, what an old guy you are!.....:^)
                                        
    I'm going to be 30 very soon - Scorpio in fact.
    
    Cards, gifts, candy, flowers, gift subscription to Modern Maturity 
    can all be sent to......           
         
    These last few years, starting with age 27 have been the best and
    the worst of my life.  I'm still here though and looking forward
    to the next 120 years.
    
    Cindy                 

    Some extra thoughts on what I've been trying to convey with the
    astrologically oriented notes:  I'm not in any way trying to discount
    the reality or intensity of the experiences people are going through.
    It is entirely possible that there is something completely new in
    the air, and that it's _coinciding_ with important, change-ful times
    in people's lives.  This can give usual growth experiences tremendous
    impact.  By listing the "times of our lives", I was trying to give 
    people a few guidelines on what is "normal" for folks in our 20-25 
    year age group.  That way someone can better distinguish normal
    courses of inner events from the truly unique; one can say, "aah,
    I might be feeling this way because of this new experience layered
    on top of my Jupiter Return/Uranus Opposition/Pluto square/whatever."
    
    That is, if one accepts the correlations of certain planetary transits
    to important times of our lives in the first place  :-).
    
    Marcia
    (Just-passed-Jupiter-Return,-Nodal-Return-due-in-March-'88)

    scorpios?  did you say scorpios?
    
    I got 'em out the ears.  The whole rest of my family (parents and
    sister) were born in a 2-week span of Scorpio...and now add to just
    within a week of that my fiancee.  Boy... is it gonna be an expensive
    fall!
    
    (it's almost too much for a virgo to bear)
    
    -Jody
    
    
    p.s.  just as an aside....remember y'all that tonight's the harvest
    (first of autumn full) mooo-ooo-ooooon   
    (darn, how do you make a sideways smiley face with fangs?)
    
    
    

    Re .52:
    
    >p.s.  just as an aside....remember y'all that tonight's the harvest
    >(first of autumn full) mooo-ooo-ooooon   
    >(darn, how do you make a sideways smiley face with fangs?)
     
    It's also a penumbral lunar eclipse, peaking about Midnight, EDT
    [wooooooooooooooooooooo!].
    
    How about just doing:
    
                             O   O
                               U
                             \___/
                              V V
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
                               

    I like that Steve_:-)

    Me too.
    

    We air, fire and earth signs have a bet going as to just how long
    you scorpios are going to continue talking about how gloriously
    provocative your eyes are...(of course... we're afraid to tell you
    to stop... we all know how *scorpios* can be_:-).

    Everyone knows Scorpios are oversexed.  Now how is it you guys have
    so much energy left over for this conference?  ;-)
    
    
    
    John M.

    re: -.1
        Sorry, John, but I can't resist telling you that my good
    friend Lazaris tells us that truly good sex will give you *more*
    energy, not less!  So, now that that explains my energy, what 
    do you say?
     
    Frederick
    

    RE. 57
    
        >;^)   what a way to go!
    
    
    t.
     
    

RE: .58

Since "Lazaris" has never been an animal, I do not think he is qualified
to comment on animal experiences.


RE: .60

Any volunteers?  >;-)


John M.

    re: John
        You animule, you!
     
    Frederick
    

    I for one plan on experimenting on this one -- in my next life I'll
    come back as a Scorpio. :-)
    
    
    					Topher

    Re .63:
    
    Topher, a stinging response. :-)
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE: .63

    As a single, double, or triple scooper?  ;-)
    
    Kak