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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

456.0. "LIFE AFTER H.C." by TOPDOC::SLOANE (Bruce is on the loose) Wed Aug 19 1987 16:22

    My predictions in 418.110, including the plane crash and the dolphins,
    have come true, with one small exception: people are still writing
    about Harmonic Convergence. 
    
    So what has changed? For many, including me, there have been no
    changes. My life continues along; my mood swings go up and down
    as they always have. For some (perhaps a minority), the event was
    significant, leading them to an increased awareness, sense of
    spirituality, feelings of belonging, or whatever. I am truly happy
    for them. 
    
    I continue to see Harmonic Convergence as a media event, foisted
    on many by a few clever individuals. Those of you who wish to dispute
    this are welcome to discuss, dispute, and even argue. 
    
    My feelings toward most psychic matter is that of a skeptic. Certainly 
    there are unexplained phenomena, but that does not mean we have
    to invoke the supernatural to explain them. Would not the workings
    of a computer, or even a TV set look supernatural to someone unfamiliar
    with them?
                     
    -bs
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456.1Isn't this Clarke's 3rd Law?VINO::EVANSWed Aug 19 1987 16:576
    "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
    :-)
    
    
    Dawn
    
456.2NONODE::JOLLIMOREWed Aug 19 1987 17:179
.0
>    I continue to see Harmonic Convergence as a media event, foisted
>    on many by a few clever individuals.

?Huh? Very little media in my opinion. Christmas is more a media event to
me. Most of the press I saw was in obscure magazines and papers. There
was little national press, and the only local spots I saw were on the Friday
before. Name the few and clever.
Jay
456.3Jose Arguelles et alTOPDOC::SLOANEBruce is on the looseWed Aug 19 1987 17:4717
    Re: -.1
    
    Foremost among the few and clever is Jose Arguelles. This has been
    a million dollars worth of free advertising for his book. I wish I 
    could get that kind of publicity for my books!
    
    Others include Frank Waters, Steve McFadden, Eugene Johnson, and
    a host of others.
    
    I thought the press was fairly restrained, but it was on national
    news several days running, and in almost all newspapers. 
    
    Thanks for asking me this. I think everybody who writes in this
    file should be prepared to back up their views.
    
    -bs
       
456.4So what?DONNER::EVANSMWed Aug 19 1987 18:516
    Doesn't Jay read Doonsbury?  Seriously, I've been reading about
    the convergence in the media only for about a week before it happened,
    but had known about it for over a year.  Thank the goddess change
    doesn't often suddenly occur overnight.  Even if the Convergence
    did nothing more than bring people together for a few hours
    "harmoniously", that's something to be pleased with right there.
456.5NONODE::JOLLIMOREWed Aug 19 1987 18:5620
-.1

Do you really believe Jose did it soley for the publicity? I never did
buy his book. The people I've talked to that read it said it was fairly
difficult reading. Have you written any books? Maybe I'll buy yours.

If Jose did it for the free press and personal gain, what did the others
do it for? I saw no commercialism connected with any of this. Most of
them I don't know. Are they all hyping books?

I never did catch it on the national news. I watch only ABC World News
Tonite, and not every nite. The only thing I saw was on Channel 5 Friday
nite at 11:00, and the woman couldn't keep a straight face. I know there
was something in the WSJ about a month or so back, and later something in
Newsweek? It just didn't strike me as a media event, along the lines of
comet Haley. At least I haven't seen any Harmonic Convergence t-shirts.
8') Although there may indeed be some.

Thanks for backing up your views, keep 'em coming.
Jay
456.6NONODE::JOLLIMOREWed Aug 19 1987 19:275
.4  Doonsbury!!! How could I have forgotten that. It did run over a week
there!

.5  Should be re:-.2
Jay
456.7MANTIS::PAREThu Aug 20 1987 17:423
    The media picked up on it after people all over the world
    simultaneously were obsessively drawn to an event no one understood
    or could logically explain.  That alone is significant.
456.8A tickler...NEXUS::MORGANWelcome to the Age of FlowersThu Aug 20 1987 18:473
    This reply is just a little tickler to remind us to start a new
    Life after H.C. one year later on August 16-17th, 1988. Be there....
    
456.9How about Elvis?AKOV77::GOONANThu Aug 20 1987 19:557
    I think people have been much more obsessivly drawn to the event
    of the 10 year anniversary of the death of Elvis Presley, and I
    find that fact very significant a comment on the lack of spirituality
    in the lives of people.  Also the media handles the Elvis "The King"
    mourners as apparently normal, sane individuals, while the Harmonic
    Convergence participants are treated as off-the-wall.  What a reality
    we have to contend with!
456.10You get what you expect ...CYCLPS::BAHNThe 1st 2000 lifetimes are toughest!Thu Aug 20 1987 20:309
    > What a reality we have to contend with!

      If there's anything at all to the Harmonic Convergence and 
      the belief/value system(s) many of us share, our reality is 
      what we make it ... Reality is probably just a collective 
      hunch anyway.

      Terry

456.11A little humorNEXUS::MORGANWelcome to the Age of FlowersSun Aug 23 1987 22:0865
From:    Geoff Gilpin 
To:      All                                      Msg #165, 15-Aug-87 09:44mst
Subject: Read all about it!

CONSTANCE CUMBY "CLEANSED" IN "HARMONIC CONVERGENCE"
 
SPEAKS THROUGH "TRANCE CHANNEL"
 
Acapulco, Mexico (EPA), Aug 18, 1987
 
Spectators in this popular resort area were shocked yesterday when
Fundamentalist author Constance Cumby, known for her anti-"New Age"
bestsellers "Rainbows from Hell" and "Hidden Dangers of the 
Care Bears", fell into a crevice filled with molten lava.  
 
Ms. Cumby had come to Acapulco to protest what she described as
"harmonics and all other forms of humanism" and to organize a
demonstration against the planting of crystals here by devotees of "New
Age" beliefs.  At the time of her death, Ms. Cumby was exhorting her
audience to counter the "fiendish influence of rocks" by burying
photographs of Nancy Reagan "and other heros of normalcy."  She was
brandishing what appeared to be a can of deodorant in the direction of
the New Age believers when the mysterious crevice opened at Ms. Cumby's
feet, swallowing her, several cartons of her books, and a rack
displaying plush unicorns and Smurf dolls bearing labels such as
"Belial" and "Ashtoreth".  Eyewitnesses say that Ms. Cumby screamed
"It's the rapture!" immediately before the fissure closed over her with
a noise that several of them compared to belching.
 
Ms. Cumby's death stirred controversy in both the New Age encampment
and among her followers.
 
"She really did get raptured," insisted Olivetta Beehive, a Milwaukee
representative of Mary Kay Cosmetics,  "even if she went down instead
of up."  But a member of the New Age group insisted that Ms. Cumby had
not been raptured but "cleansed".  To this claim, Ms. Beehive responded
that "She didn't need to get cleansed.  She was so clean already."
 
The debate intensified approximately seven hours after Ms. Cumby's
accident when one member of the New Age gathering, a self-styled
"trance channeler" named Roland Twitchy, began speaking in a voice
eerily like that of the late author.  
 
"His eyes go all blank.  He even LOOKS like Constance," said one woman.
 
In a session in which he assumed the identity of Ms. Cumby, Mr. Twitchy
announced that she had become a convert to New Age beliefs.  "It has
all become clear to me now that I have attained the Fifth Bardo of
Utter Mindlessness."  Mr. Twitchy/Ms. Cumby attested to the pleasant
nature of the afterlife.  "It's nicer than Shopko here."  The
supposedly discorporate writer assured her former friends that all was
well.  "My guides have initiated me into est...  or maybe it was TM.   
 
Mr. Twitchy revealed that, in a former life, Ms. Cumby had been a
housewife in Atlantis.  "My husband and I had a business selling solar
heating units.  It was just like Amway!  It was a pyramid!  A PYRAMID!! 
That's not a coincidence, you know."
 
Since those early sessions, confusion has spread as several other
people in Mexico have begun speaking in the voice of Constance Cumby. 
Mr. Twitchy says he will apply for a copyright.


---
456.12SPIDER::PARETue Aug 25 1987 14:251
    That was hysterical Mikie,... thanks_:-)
456.13Fun in the NAWAGON::DONHAMBorn again! And again, and again...Wed Sep 02 1987 13:4343
    
    This was clipped from a Plymouth weekly newspaper by my friend Patti;
    her sister Nan is the author:
    
    DAWNING OF A NEW AGE?
    
    Oops. 'Fraid I slept through the harmonic convergence Sunday morning.
    
    Some of the news stories say it was actually Saturday morning. It
    doesn't really matter. I was sleeping then too.
    
    I guess I lost my chance to take advantage of the cosmic pause at
    the end of the Mayan calendar to adjust my vibrations to the New
    Age.
    
    I'm waiting for an age that doesn't start at daw, although I saw
    a great alarm clock in a mail-order catalog the other day. It comes
    in two models, a baseball and a tennis ball. To turn off the alarm
    in the morning, you pick it up and throw it at something. That's
    my kind of alarm clock--but it probably isn't really in the spirit
    needed to rise at dawn and slip out of the earth's time beam into
    a New Age.
    
    Anyway, I'm not fully adjusted yet to the Old Age. Frankly, I had
    no idea that we were still using the Mayan calendar, before seeing
    the news that it was ending. Perhaps it's somewhere at the bottom
    of the rubble on my desk. Or in my Rolodex--I'd believe that almost
    anything is lurking in that Rolodex, which I inherited from a reporter
    who inherited it from another reporter who... I haven't really
    investigated, but some of those numbers could be part of a Mayan
    calendar, rather than the local telephone exchange. It would help
    explain some of the more obscure entries.
    
    Back to the New Age--wouldn't you think that it would start with
    something a little more, well, cosmic, than a cosmic pause at dawn?
    Some real change?
    
    There is one relatively simple thing that would really show a New
    Age has dawned--and we could do it ourselves, without waiting for
    a harmonic convergence. In a New Age, people might finally bury
    Elvis, now that he's been dead 10 years.
    
    						Nan Anastasia
456.14we might throw in this one...ERASER::KALLISRaise Hallowe'en awareness.Wed Sep 02 1987 14:0347
    re .13:
    
    And from _the Middlesex News_ ...
    
                   `CONVERGENCE' MISSES THE MARK
    
    There's no point in mincing words: I'm bitter, very bitter, about
    the way the Harmonic Convergence was celebrated in Framingham [Mass]
    yesterday.  Touted as an aligning of the planets and the dawning
    of a new age, the convergence had the potential to be something
    beautiful.
    
    From California's Mount Shasta to Egypt's Pyramids, hundreds of
    thousands gathered at "power centers" around the globe to hold hands,
    hum, transmit positive energy, and just "be."
    
    Everything was perfect until, tragically, 50 or so participants
    in Framingham screwed it up by snubbing my favorite Chinese restauirant
    -- Chen's -- and, in all liklihood, causing irreparable damage to
    the cosmos.
    
    Allow me to explain.
    
    As I have stated many times before, Chen's, a competent Chinese
    eatery located at the confluence of Rte. 9 and the Mass. Turnpike
    is the geometric center of the universe, a fact that, to my knowledge,
    has never been disputed.
    
    As such, I naturally assumed it would be one of the power centers
    where people would observe the Harmonic Convergence, the start of
    a period of planetary cleansing, according to the Mayan calander.
    
    Well, I assumed wrong.
    
    A woman dressed in Native American garb broke the news just after
    Store 24 in downtown Framingham: We would be going to Farm Pond
    -- not Chen's -- to usher in the new age.
    
    Farm Pond.  Within earshot of the Conrail terminal.  Adjacent to
    the dreaded town incinerator.  Uncomfortably close to the Registry
    of Motor Vehicles.   ...
                             *****
    
    Exerpted from the "In Other Words" column by Jeff Kramer without
    permission.  Copyright (C) 1987 by _The Middlesex News.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                      
456.15When the "truth" is found to be liesGLORY::WETHERINGTONWed Sep 02 1987 15:509
    Yes, they would, and most psychic phenomena 100 years from now will be
    just as "scientifically" explainable as a computer and TV set are
    today.  Just because our science hasn't advanced far enough to explain
    something by it's own limited standards, doesn't negate the existence
    of the phenomena; I would say personal observation of a psychic
    phenomena with your own eyes is the best proof; it's my prefered
    way of verifying something.  Long ago I concluded that our current
    "science" is flawed and archaic, because it cannot yet explain most
    of the "out of the ordinary" experiences I have had.
456.16dow jones -508 !SSDEVO::ACKLEYNo final answers hereTue Oct 20 1987 12:591
    it's the convergence !   Everything will change now ?
456.17BEES::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenTue Oct 20 1987 14:3425
    
    Predictions for the period prior to the New Age:
    
    There will be a slight rally in the market but within two years
    (if that) there will be a *very* severe drop and markets all over 
    the world will be effected... there will be world wide financial
    chaos.
    
    We will get closer and closer to a war if we are not already involved 
    in one by then.  We will have our first nuclear accident ...  There
    will be a major earthquakes...  Sightings of alien ships will increase 
    and be confirmed for what they are...

    What to do?
        Get out of debt if possible...
        Don't keep large amounts of money (not that any of us would
    have any_:-) in the bank.
        Try to get as self-sufficient as possible... if the transportation
    systems are effected food lines will be cut off.
         If you keep any money at home try to get pre 1964 silver coins (real
    silver and not silver "sandwiches") and not paper.
         Plan on a garden next summer and learn how to can food.    
         Get a wood stove.
    
    Just kidding guys_:-)_but just in case....
456.18Slow is better than too fast!PUZZLE::GUEST_TMPHOME, in spite of my ego!Wed Dec 09 1987 02:3720
         I wasn't real certain where to post this and decided to
    "nest" here.  Recognize that there are probably many other topics
    within this notesfiles where this could be.
         As I watched our "summit" meeting this morning in the White
    House, I observed the Soviet Secretary General and our own
    "illustrious" president.  Not to get off on their individual 
    personalities, it is fair to say that in my lifetime the current
    leader of the USSR is far and away the most desirable I have 
    encountered (of their leaders.)  I saw further that perhaps those
    of us who had an optimism about our future *really did* have a
    say in its unfolding to the extent that what seemed so unlikely
    just two years ago is now a new reality.  Who is to say that the
    energy put forth just 4 months ago didn't play a significant part
    in this world event which is a light in an otherwise dark potential?
    I am glad for this event and am optimistic that this is but one
    of many that we will experience in the positive new reality that
    I wish to live in for the remainder of this incarnation.
     
    Frederick
    
456.19Will the pace continue?HPSCAD::DDOUCETTETis the Season and Spice of lifeWed Dec 09 1987 11:306
    Let's see who gets elected as president before we proclaim that
    HC energy has had an effect on politics.  =|8^D
    
    I'll admit: so far, good.
    
    Dave
456.20SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanWed Dec 09 1987 13:036
    
    	I will be interested to see in coming months if Reagan has 
    really changed into a more reasonable human.    Did he have some
    cosmic experience or something?    Perhaps Nancy ?
    
    	Alan
456.21Lets wait and see.MTBLUE::DUCHARME_GEOWed Dec 09 1987 13:036
 I was impressed with Gorbachev's speech.He sounded better than many of the
presidential candidates.But lets wait and see what deeds actually happen.
He has raised expectations and hope.I hope he means his words.


                  George D.
456.22Da!CLUE::PAINTERImagine all the people...Wed Dec 09 1987 14:377
    
    I'm delighted with the goings-on in Washington at the present time.
    
    Perhaps we should all take a moment or two and send in their direction
    as much positive energy as we can muster.  
    
    Cindy
456.23Make sure they know how you feelHPSCAD::DDOUCETTETis the Season and Spice of lifeWed Dec 09 1987 17:513
    How about a letter to your favorite congressman? 8-)
    
    Dave
456.24Snake-Oil of the MassesDECWET::MITCHELLValue me--I'm different!Wed Dec 09 1987 17:588
    
    RE: .18 etc.
    
    I guess we can thank the HC for everything good that will
    happen in the future. 
    
    
    John M.
456.25SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanWed Dec 09 1987 18:466
    
    	RE: .24  (John M.)
    
    	Yes, and we can blame all the bad things on the HC too.
    
    alan.
456.26A golden age of a lameduck...NEXUS::MORGANIn your heart you KNOW it's flat.Wed Dec 09 1987 22:267
    Reply to .20; Alan,
    
    What we're seeing with Ronnie is perhaps usual with a President
    in his last days. He dosen't really feel that his agenda or the
    parties agenda is that important. Consequently he can ease off of
    some issues and accomplish others. It's sorta' a golden age time
    for a lameduck president.
456.27It's changing!SPMFG1::CLAYRMon Dec 14 1987 17:4918
    
    
         It definitely seems as though there has been an infusion of
    positive energy from somewhere that made this summit turn out the
    way that it did. As a little example, recall how Gorbachev suddenly
    stopped his motorcade and jumped out to greet the people on the
    street with "PEACE"--he totally stunned even his own security detail. 
    And consider how Reagan was seen as such a warmongering gunslinger
    when he took office. Now so many of his conservative buddies are
    calling him an "idiot" for selling out his principles. I never liked
    Reagan before but he definitely seems to have been changed by
    something.
         Would any of this have been expected 5 years ago? The world
    is definitely changing for the better, any way you look at it...
    
    
    Roy
       
456.28Miracles *can* happen....CLUE::PAINTERImagine all the people...Mon Dec 14 1987 19:0122
    
    I'm waiting for my latest copy of "Mother Jones" to see what they
    have to say about the summit. It is a very leftist publication and
    have had very little positive things to say about Reagan and his
    time in office.  A few issues ago, the front cover went something
    like this "AIDS - 25,000 people died while Reagan turned his back".
    The rest of the article is a diary of events over a 6 year period,
    and I have the utmost respect and admiration for C.Everett Coop
    who, despite his conservative leanings, stood up for what he believed
    in and didn't let his compassion for humanity be swayed by politics
    (at least toward the end).
    
    I wonder if Reagan has been waiting for this opportunity all along.  
    He really has nothing to lose at this point, and if he can pull this 
    off in the twilight of his presidency then he will probably go down 
    history as one of the great presidents of all time (even though he
    sat around and did nothing to stop the spread of AIDS in the early
    stages - something which infuriates me).
    
    Or maybe the HC did have something to do with it.....
    
    Cindy                    
456.29Against all oddsHPSCAD::DDOUCETTETis the Season and Spice of lifeMon Dec 14 1987 19:3913
    No...No...not Politics!  AAAUUUGGGHHHH!!
    
    Reagan is a Grade B actor.  Gorbachev is a Grade A Politician, weather
    we like it or not.  Gorbachev came to the arms table because he knows
    the present arms build-up is destroying his economy, not because of a US
    arms build-up (mind you, it's destroying ours too!).  History will show
    these two for what they are.
    
    Aids is Reagan's nightmare.  He just doesn't know how to handle it
    so he continues to put off the issue, and the problem continues
    to get worse.
    
    Dave
456.30Oops - wrong conference?CLUE::PAINTERImagine all the people...Mon Dec 14 1987 23:312
    
    .....er....sorry
456.31No, just over reactingHPSCAD::DDOUCETTETis the Season and Spice of lifeTue Dec 15 1987 01:433
    (Whew!) it's alright, I'm over the poly-fit now...
    
    D{ve ;-)
456.32NATASH::BUTCHARTTue Dec 15 1987 12:4324
    Re: last few
    
    Don't worry, Cindy.  If, in this file, we can speculate about personal
    life events in the context of Something Unkown And Mysterious And
    Possibly Bigger Than We Are, and try to make correlations of Whatever
    That Is with our own personal experiences, I think it's entirely
    correct to speculate about the impact of Whatever It Is on the global
    scale.  The same patterns of response apply.  Many of us who have
    had unexplainable experiences will offer them to this file for comment.
    We get to hear speculations on their causes from repliers who often
    fall into two camps:  those who believe that Whatever It Is is at
    least partially responsible, and those who believe our experience
    is very mundane, we're just not perspicuous enough to see it as
    such yet.  Both are excellent to listen to:  the more esoterically
    sensitive/learned among us broaden our horizons, and the mundane-
    oriented give us more criteria by which to evaluate our observations.

    The same thing happens to our musings about possible connections
    of Whatever It Is to global events.  As long as the speculations
    and observations are in that context (and don't rathole for more
    than 3 replies?  :-)) I don't think we need to worry about the dreaded
    P word creeping in now and again.
    
    Marcia
456.33DECWET::MITCHELLValue me--I'm different!Thu Dec 17 1987 07:038
    I guess if Christ were to return tomorrow (which he won't) that would
    be attributed to the HC as well.  In fact, I'm sure that HC
    participants will attribute everything good that happens to be a result
    of the HC until the New Age fad dies out (I give it 3 more years max). 

    
    
    John M.
456.34And *I* thought we only had a couple more weeks...AOXOA::STANLEYSometimes you get shown the light...Thu Dec 17 1987 12:134
Three years! That's great!  I was afraid it wouldn't last *that* long.  Thank
you so much John for giving us three whole years!  :-)

		Dave
456.35the future will flush out the false prophets...SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanThu Dec 17 1987 12:4225
    
    	RE: .33  (John M.)
    
    	I have been fascinated in recent months by an apparent increase
    in the violence of earthquakes in California, Japan, and around
    the pacific.    Edgar Cayce, among others have predicted an in
    crease in the "earth changes", Cayce pinpointed the "late 1980's"
    as the time when these changes would become obvious.
    
    	I bring this up, because I believe that the survival of the
    "new age" movement may really be linked to the accuracy of the
    growing body of prophecies made by "new age" prophets.
    
    	If the earth change prophecies begin to prove correct, in
    proveable detail, then the NEW AGE will begin.   Perceptions
    of the universe will change, and a powerful new religious mythos
    will transform society, in the *shock* of sudden changes.
    
    	On the other hand, if life just goes on, do-dah, do-dah...
    for the next three years.   I think you will be correct in predicting
    the demise of the "new age" fad.
    
    	I think you are wrong, however.
    
    	Alan.
456.36RE 456.35DICKNS::KLAESAll the galaxy's a stage...Thu Dec 17 1987 12:537
    	Earthquakes occur in varying degrees all over Earth all the
    time, as they have since the planet was formed.  They are *not*
    a sign that the world is ending, only undergoing its continuous
    geological changes.
    
    	Larry
    
456.37MANTIS::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenThu Dec 17 1987 13:074
    Gee larry, John knows for sure that Jesus is not returning tomorrow
    (are you keeping his calendar John?_:-)  And you know for sure that
    earthquakes are *not* the sign predicted by Edgar Cayce.
    We don't need any prophets .... we've got you guys to keep us informed_:-)
456.38RE 456.37DICKNS::KLAESAll the galaxy's a stage...Thu Dec 17 1987 13:2414
    	Oh, and I suppose YOU know that He IS coming back, eh?  Where's
    your calendar for this?
    
    	If I am going to have sarcasm lobbed my way, I am well prepared
    to return it.  Note my previous comment was made as a statement,
    not as a snyde remark.
    
    	You yell at us for not giving those who feel they can believe
    supernatural events without proof a chance, but I find you are as
    particularly unforgiving in your remarks towards those who like
    to look before they leap.
    
    	Larry
    
456.39MANTIS::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenThu Dec 17 1987 13:577
    Larry dear,
    I don't know when He is coming back nor have I ever claimed to know...
    and I'm not yelling at you... I'm playfully reminding you that none
    of us really know much of anything about what is to come and to
    deny another's instincts does not give credibility to one's own
    instinct.  
    Friends, ok_:-)
456.40RE 456.39DICKNS::KLAESAll the galaxy's a stage...Thu Dec 17 1987 14:077
    	If you want to believe that every earthquake is a sign of God's
    Coming, then fine (then He must have been Coming for the last five
    billion years), but I am NOT going to view every earthquake as a
    sign that the sky is falling.
    
    	Larry
    
456.41agreed! Amen! right on!ERASER::KALLISHas anybody lost a shoggoth?Thu Dec 17 1987 14:189
    Re .40 ,(Larry):
    
    > ........ I am NOT going to view every earthquake as a
    >sign that the sky is falling.
     
    More like the earth moving under your feet, to quote a pop song
    ... :-D
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                   
456.42Re.40CLUE::PAINTERImagine all the people.....Thu Dec 17 1987 14:3518
    
    Larry, that's fine.  That is your choice.  Nobody is asking you
    to believe any differently, and you are certainly entitled to your
    opinions.  I don't believe that it was ever intended to *absolutely*
    prove or *absolutely* disprove anything, or to 'convince' you one
    way or the other of anything.    
    
    I'm interested in hearing this sort of thing, and hope that people will 
    continue to enter their speculations, observations, hunches, etc., 
    because that may trigger another area of discussion - and one that 
    I may not have heard before.  Discussing and debating are two entirely
    different things.  I don't enter things here to debate them, and
    like Carla, will also walk away if the topic takes a turn in that 
    direction.  That is why I don't participate in SOAPBOX, and that
    is why some people DO participate in SOAPBOX.  There is a time and 
    a place for everything and everyone.     
    
    Just my thoughts.
456.43we will *all* see clear, but only in hindsight.SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanThu Dec 17 1987 15:1329
    
    	Well, *I* don't know if the Cayce predictions are true or not.
    I simply said that the future will tell.   Certainly quakes will
    continue to occur, and these do not mean the world is ending.
    
    	*But* --  Cayce and others have predicted A GREAT INCREASE in
    geological activity for this time in history.   If these predictions
    are correct, well, for now we may be able to shrug them off, but
    if California (or even just San Francisco) actually falls in the 
    ocean, then NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO SHRUG IT OFF !!
    
    	Please don't read this to mean that *I* know what will happen.
    I don't.   I just happen to *believe* that Edgar Cayce was correct.
	
    	And, *if* he was, then once the predicted events start happening,
    it seems obvious to me that this will have a great impact on the
    development of religious and mythic ideas.   Many will accept it
    as proof of the validity of "new age" ideas and gurus.   Many of
    these gurus have predicted that the planet Earth, itself, will
    intervene in our plans (natural disasters, as opposed to man-made
    disasters).
    
    	I am looking forward to the proof of the next decade.   If the
    major problems are only the man-made ones, I will see that these
    prophets were proved false.   If there *are* the predicted natural
    earth changes, however, some of the skeptics will be changing
    their tune....

    	Alan.
456.44Sounded reasonable to me.PBSVAX::COOPERTopher CooperThu Dec 17 1987 16:5760
    Larry, you're not being particularly rational or scientific.
    
    If someone, whether a geologist, a "religionist", or a psychic predicts
    an earthquake which someone claims has been matched by a particular
    earthquake than we can evaluate the claim, and therefore the prediction
    scientifically.  We must look at the prediction and the supposed
    match and see how close they are.  We must ask how likely such a
    match is to occur simply by chance (which will depend in part on
    how specific the prediction was).  If the prediction came about
    through a clear unambiguous theory, we can check that that theory
    actually makes the prediction and that the theory has been
    systematically applied.  If the method of prediction is not
    reproducable than we must investigate the possibility that the
    predictor could not, consciously or unconsciously, actually use another
    method of prediction.
    
    If the prediction passes all these criteria than we must give some
    credence to the theory/system/ability which created it.  We do not
    have to accept it as proven, but we do have to say that evidence
    exists for the basis of the prediction.  This is what science IS.
    
    In this case what we have is not the prediction of a particular
    earthquake but a prediction of a general increase in the number
    of severe earthquakes.  This has apparently occured (although what
    we have actually noted is an increase in the number of severe
    earthquakes in places we find "significant").  I would judge that
    this increase is, so far, well within the bounds of ordinary
    statistical fluctuation.
    
    If someone had said, these earthquakes confirm Cayce's predictions
    you would be justified in pointing out that it is still plausibly
    explained by selective reporting and ordinary statistical fluctuation.
    As it happens, no one said this.  Even if they had, very little
    would have been added to the discussion by essentially contentless
    derision -- if you think that someone is wrong you should say why.
    If you don't then why should people pay any attention to your
    unsupported opinion?
    
    If someone, for whatever reason, finds a source of a prediction
    credible and sees a trend developing, then they are justified in
    saying "This looks promising; let's keep an eye on it to see how
    it develops".  This is all that has been said.  I don't see any place
    for negative comment (though some hard information or well-backed
    up estimates of just how far the current situation is from significance
    might be appropriate).
    
    I suspect (and I realize that I am treading on the boundary, or
    perhaps I have crossed it, of ad hominim) that what you are really
    being critical of is not the attempt to match prediction with
    observation but your opinion of the source of the prediction.  Would
    you have reacted the same if the same prediction had been made by
    a plate tectonisist (sp?), even one whose theories you strongly
    disagreed with?
    
    (Sorry, if I've been too rough.  It's just so easy for any of us
    to slide from science to Scientism, that I think that it is important
    for all of us to watch out for the rest and give warning if we think
    that another is straying from "the path".)
    
    				Topher
456.45the warning sequenceSSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanThu Dec 17 1987 17:4420
    
    	More on specific Cayce predictions.   This is from memory,
    quoted from Jeffery Goodman's summary of the Cayce predictions
    in the book _We_Are_The_Earthquake_Generation_;
    
    	Goodman says Cayce predicted a "warning sequence" that would
    happen prior to the major California event;
    
    	1) Mt. Vesuvius (sp?) in Italy will erupt.
    	2) Mt. Pele on Martinique will erupt.
    	3) a major quake under the indian ocean will inundate India
    		with tidal waves.
    	4) Japan would be hit with severely damaging quake or quakes.
    	5) then California.
    
    As you can see, these are specific sequential predictions, although
    no date was given, the sequence was.    They will either prove to
    be true, or not.
    
	Alan.
456.46AKOV11::FRETTSyou are a shining star...Thu Dec 17 1987 18:1911
    
    
    Alan,
    
    Are you positive that they have to happen in that sequence?  What
    if they *all* happen but one or two are out of sequence?  Do we
    discard the whole thing? :-)  (Actually, I hope none of them 
    happen - that's quite a lot of destruction one right after the other.
    
    Carole
    
456.47SNOC01::MYNOTTThu Dec 17 1987 18:5828
    Well Chicken Licken, Ducky Lucky, Henny Penny, Goosey Loosey, Turkey
    Lurkey, lets go meet Foxy Loxy and go tell the King that the sky
    is falling in.
    
    I'm sorry, but this was like my favourite children's story.  Some
    months ago, we all mentioned that things were stepping up, as the
    new age (sorry John - that's small n as in Aquarius)approaches things
    will start to happen.  I still feel it is a warning that we had
    better get our act together quick or there won't be a need to worry
    about the New Age fad finishing in three years, there won't be anything
    to look forward to anyway.
    
    So if you all feel positive, then we ain't go no worries.  As it
    is there are a lot of disasters natural or otherwise happening around
    the world at the moment, somebody is trying to drop a hint.  
                                                    
    In my opinion what does it matter if the "New Age" fad finishes
    in three years, we will still be here and still be feeling the same
    positive happy way, just change the name.  :^) :^) :^)
    
    Sorry but today is my last day for two weeks of blissful holidays.
    
    All of you have a peaceful, happy, indulgent and safe Christmas and
    New Year.
                                                          
    ...dale
    
    
456.48SSDEVO::ACKLEYAslanThu Dec 17 1987 18:5912
    
    	That was the sequence, as I remember it.   It was presented
    in that order, although this was in Goodman's book, not in Cayce's
    original words.    I suppose I would have to find the actual
    Cayce quote, to be certain that the ordering is just so.
    
    	But it was presented as the "warning sequence", and to me the
    word 'sequence' implies that there may be something to the order 
    of events.   If Mt Pele goes off before Vesuvius, but near the
    same time as each other, I would still take the prophecy seriously.
    
    	Alan.