Conference hydra::dejavu

    It depends upon what area of the occult you are "dabbling" in. 
    
    The first warning is: don't "dabble": if you want to investigate
    seriously, do so, but do so systematically, and after careful study.
    
    In some areasof activity, it is possible to become possessed.  At least one
    member of this conference has witnessed an actual exorcism.
    
    In other areas, it's possible to be attacked physically or psychically.
    See the section on psychic vampires for some stories of this.  See
    also "A Sinister Seance" for something that _almost_ happened.
    
    In other areas, it's possible to become corrupted.  Values change,
    particularly from good to evil.  This could have long-term
    ramifications.  It's particularly easy for something that wishes
    you (or anyone) harm to be glib, promising you all sorts of benefits
    if you'll only cooperate.  
    
    See 316.1 for an interesting case.  Also, one regular contributor
    to this Conference had a very ugly series of experiences with someone
    who took the Left-Hand Path; regrettably, circumstances forced him
    to delete the base note.  I've learned from another privately of
    a nocturnal visitation he had.
             
    Some of your questions have already been answered in some of the responses.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                   

    The kind of 'bad' things you'll hear about are not the "fire and
    brimstone" type that you may be fearing.
    
    My own experience is such that what you usually get ranges from
    a "bad taste in your mouth" to a searing headache that makes you
    feel like your head is about to explode.  Fortunately, with time,
    these go away.
    
    We, as humans, do not have a great control over paranormal areas.
    Also, we have not developed to the point where we'd be able to "prove
    it" to the skeptics.  All through time, people were burned/tortured
    and inquisitioned if they had any dealings with the paranormal or
    if they were SUSPECTED of having them.  This would tend to use
    artificial selection in breeding out the 'sensitives' of the world.
    
    Now, fortunately, no-one's being burned at the stake.  Only now
    are we beginning to see a resurgence in people attesting to be a
    witness or participant in paranormal activity.
    
    As such is now the case, the skill with which these abilities are
    wielded should be improving.  Also, the dangers will be increasing.
    
    You may not have heard of catastrophic fallout from paranormal
    activities but with the above-mentioned resurgence, you may start
    hearing such things in the near future.
    
    Although sometimes I disagree with the melodramatic emphasis placed
    on protection, I wholeheartedly agree with the principle.  It all
    goes back to the 'ounce of prevention' line of thought.
    
    dj

    Even if one excludes the idea that external, objective forces are
    manipulated in this way, one would expect problems to arise from
    "messing around".  One alternative explanation is that occult
    practices represent patterning or reorganizing the interface between
    the conscious mind and the considerably more vast set of unconscious
    mental processes that support consciousness. (Conscious/unconscious
    is not *quite* the right way to classify things, but it will do for
    now.) 

    So we are actually talking about practices that can modify your
    personal "operating system".  To carry on that analogy -- if you are
    very careful, and diligent, and studied -- you *may* be able to
    patch parts of the operating system to correct bugs, optimize
    performance within and between subsystems, change or add to the
    firmware, etc. 
    
    You will have a better chance than the average Software Specialist,
    because you have some extremely fancy monitoring and development
    tools.  (And the creation of some monitoring and development tools
    to add to the existing set seems to be part of many training
    systems.) 

    (Observe, too, the emphasis on solitude, retreats, controlled
    environments, in occult literature.  Doesn't the Specialist take the
    machine off-line and dismount the production disks before
    proceeding, if possible?) 

    But if you are not careful, not diligent, and just messing
    around...you may not get the result you expect, if indeed "you" are
    still present to say anything about it!  Whether it's a theological
    demon or a psychoanalyst's "autonomous complex" or a bug introduced
    in the interrupt scheduling won't make much practical difference! 

    Because biological systems evolved over millions of years have
    great resiliance, it's hard to introduce catastrophic failures,
    but as Vonnegut says in GALAPAGOS, big brains can cause real
    trouble for their owners.
    
Pat Hardy

    
    re .0
    
    To be a bit more specific about a "bad" result from a dabbleing:
    I had a friend that was "messing around" with trying to contact
    a dead relation.  It was sort of a party atmosphere where a group
    of her friends would get together, get slightly tipsy, light some
    candles and try to contact their dead relations.  The met three
    times and everyone seemed to be amused tith the "seances".  After
    the third meeting, though, my friend claimed to feel uneasy after
    everyone went home (she lived alone).  Then, she started to wake
    up in the middle of the night and wonder if she had been woken up
    by a noise or if there was someone in the house or trying to get
    into the house (etc).  Then, she was so frightened that every noise
    or bad dream was a big thing for her.  She was not sleeping well
    if at all.  She was afraid to go home at night and she was frantic
    about it.  Finally, she ended up moveing to another apartment just
    to get rid of the creepy feelings.
    
    Did her little parties conjer  up an entity, or did they just make
    her imagination run away from her?  I don't think it matters which
    is closest to the truth!  The fact is that she and her friends were 
    "playing" with something that IS NOT A TOY.  All in all, I think she 
    got off easy.

    
     Paul,
        One thing that can happen is being influenced to do things that
    you shouldnt do.Peoples attitudes and character dont change after
    death unless they change them.There are spirits who will do you
    harm if allowed to that is why you should take the same precautions
    when dealing with them as you would if they were here in this life
    stage.
    
                                       MIKE
    

    Can anybody state specifically what sort of protections people might
    use? If you had some people over, and were going to drag out the
    Ouija (sp?) board, what would you do. If you were going to hold
    a seance, what would you do.
    
    I remember watching a horror movie once where this guy started to
    dabble in black magic. He eventually conjured up some evil spirits
    but confined them to a circle (pentagram) drawn on the floor. They
    (the spirits) could not move around unless he released them.
    
    I do not plan on trying to conjur up any spirits, evil or otherwise,
    but I suspect this would be an example of a type of protection.
    
    
    /Steve

    Re .7:
    
    Don't placve too much faith in films: the "dabbler" should have
    been within the pentagram; the evil spirits should have been in
    a circle containing a triangle.
    
    I most emplatically _do not_ suggest that anyone "dabble" in
    ceremonial magic!!
    
    For seances, I'd suggest at a minimum that one burn incense (Sandalwood
    is a good general-purpose one) and if one knows a good occultist,
    have that person cleanse the room before beginning.  [Ideally, if
    that person would stay, he or she could help make sure things remained
    okay.]  Ditto for Ouija boards.  Other elements, such as white candles
    in silver holders, possibly rubbed with virgin olive oil (not used
    for any other purpose) might help, if the candles are placed at
    the cardinal points of the compass and the participants concentrate
    on the purity of the light.  Such candles should never have been
    used beforee, and should be allowed to burn completely without being
    extinguished.  You might augment the candles ny putting a twig
    at the base of the easternmost, a knife at the southernmost, a
    (preferably silver) cup filled with pure water at the westernmost,
    and a dish of salt (preferably sea salt, coarse) at the northernmost
    candle.
    
    These should form some protection.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

RE: .7
    
    I take a different view of the dangers of the Ouija board than others
    in this conference (not that I dismiss that there are dangers).
    You will find througout this conference various cleansing and
    protection rituals.  I think that they are useful tools for
    accomplishing the proper protections but here is what I think has
    to be accomplished:
    
    1) You must put health into the proceedings to get it back.  The
    Ouija board -- or any other form of depth probing -- is nothing
    to get into when you are depressed, anxious, manic, etc.
    
    Ultimately, you must ask why you are investigating the Ouija board
    (or any other means of channeling).  If you are doing so to learn
    more about yourself and the universe -- to see a bit more and to
    gain more perspective -- so that you can grow, than you have a "safe"
    attitude.  If you are investigating to "fix" something wrong with
    yourself or to fill a void than you are asking for trouble.
    
    2) You must take it seriously, but not too seriously.  The entities
    you contact cannot be trusted.  They will tell the truth sometimes,
    non-truth others.  Much of their non-truth will seem plausible.
    Look to them for inspiration, perhaps, but not for guidance.  Their
    non-truths may be lies or their own self-deception; it may or may
    not have destructive intent; but that *they* say it adds *absolutely
    nothing* to its liklihood of being true.
    
    Wherever these personalities come from (and make no mistake; they
    are definitely actual personalities)-- whether from the past, another
    plane, the future, or (as I believe) your own mind -- they live
    in an environment which is alien to you.  The guidelines which you
    have developed in your life to judge people, to determine if they
    are trustworthy or how they are likely to act in any particular
    situation, are inapplicable.  Whether or not they were once, or
    will someday be, human or, however they are related to a human
    personality THEY ARE NOT NOW HUMAN AND CANNOT BE JUDGED BY HUMAN
    STANDARDS.  Belive me, I know both from my own experience and from
    the experiences of others.
    
    3) At the same time, though you should not trust them, you should
    not actively distrust them either.  Such distrust is a form of
    animosity and it will effectively violate the first rule.  The safe
    attitude is that these are, however seemingly human, aliens.  They
    cannot and should not be judged on a moral scale, positively or
    negatively, at all.  They have their own beliefs, morals, goals
    and methods -- their own universes -- you are not in a position
    to judge it.  But you should judge any thought, from "scratch" so
    to speak, for its applicability to you and to your universe.  You
    don't have to believe them to respect them.
    
    4) You should look out for obsession.  Your investigations must
    contribute to your life, not take it over.  Channeling can become
    addictive and you must not let it.  The first point "should" preclude
    this possibility, but in reality we can *never* be completely sure
    of our own motives or our own health, and anything approaching an
    obsession is a danger sign that we missed something in our self
    examination.  This danger is not unique to channeling, nor is it
    the worst danger -- but obsession is the most common difficulty
    likely to arise.
    
    5) Never get talked into doing anything you are uncomfortable with,
    or afraid of.  Even if your fear is in some sense unjustified it
    will create a climate which will violate the first rule.
    
    6) Ouija is almost always done with at least one partner, and you
    should feel confident that your partner understands and agrees to
    all of the above precautions.
    
    7) All these points should be continuously monitored.  If at any
    time you are the least bit unsure about any of them -- STOP RIGHT
    THERE.  A relatively neutral "spotter" is a good idea, particularly
    at first.  They should be someone you trust, someone who knows and
    understands the above points.  They can participate, but not directly:
    for example, in a Ouija session, they can ask questions and transcribe
    answers, but should not "work" the planchette (sp?).  Most important,
    they should have complete veto power (as should everyone else) and
    should have a special responsibility to look out for dangerous
    indications.
    
    
    All these points are important -- none should be neglected.  The
    key word here is *honesty*.  You must be honest with yourself and
    all others involved, incarnate and disincarnate.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    					Topher

    In addition to what Steve suggested in .8, I would suggest envisioning
    a protective circle of white light around the candles.
    
    Also, another horror story - supposedly true.
    
    When I was a child, a family friend's wife was in the insane asylum.
    He says that she and some friends had been 'dabbling' with seances
    and ouiji boards.  After this had been going on for about a week
    or two, he came home to find that she had torn their house apart,
    was completely out of her mind, and went after him with a butcher
    knife.  He ran out of the house, and called the police and "men
    in white coats" to come get her.  Last I'd heard, she was still
    locked up.
    
    It's possible that the seances and Ouiji board had nothing to do
    with her condition, but it's possible that a spirit of some type
    was let in, and she has no way of getting it out.
    
    A word to the wise....
    
    Elizabeth

Topher, I think your guidelines for "exploring" are excellent.  
Sometimes we can come to similar conclusions, or sets of personal 
guidelines, for different reasons.  You very closely described my own 
feelings on this subject, but for me it has always been more of a 
strong "feeling" than a real knowledge or understanding.  Maybe they're 
the same thing.

I have never been able (in my opinion) to accurately put into words, 
how I feel about paranormal activities and why I avoid some of them.  
It's not because I don't believe they are real or exist, but rather 
that I feel they do!  I also feel that I could be the "creator" in many
situations.  If not in the sense that I'm creating the illusion of other
entities, at least in the sense that I'm creating these experiences with
other entities for myself.  That not only makes me cautious of my own 
"creations" for myself, but I also lose interest in that approach, in 
favor of other approaches I feel better equipped to understand and deal
with safely.  I don't want to give myself a match that's already lit
until I know what to do with the dynamite I've just become aware of.

Some people believe that we create everything out of our minds, and
although I have seen that more and more in my own life, I'm still 
watching that process and taking notes.  There seem to be some things I 
am totally out of control over, but it could just be my inability to 
perceive the level of control I have on another level. 

In being aware of my own role and power in creating some things for 
myself, and knowing how destructive I can be (I think we all test our 
limits), I'm very cautious about letting myself get too caught up in
anything.  If I start believing that something else has control, I
open up a big hole where anything can happen because it's not me doing
it, it's something else!  

Although I think people can learn a great deal through paranormal
methods, I really feel that THEY are teaching themselves through the
*form* of something else.  They might be creating something that feels
good and comfortable to them...a spirit guide, another entity, a 
higher self, etc., or they might create something terrifying to scare
them into learning something, or just for excitement.

Because I believe this could be the way of my reality, I'm careful
with how I use my mind.  I think respect and honesty are very
important for survival...whether we're confronting some "higher" form
or the products of our own minds.  

I tend to believe that we are very powerful beings who act like 
children playing with mental bombs.  We play games, and pretend, and
play with fire all the time.  Fortunately, most of us have minds that
are closed enough that we can't get into too much trouble.  But as
we "learn" more and more, by opening up and being aware, we open 
ourselves onto a whole new world full of powers and things to get
into trouble with.  The awareness of the power has to come with the
awareness of how to use it...and there's usually a little time
in-between when you're totally overwhelmed and don't know what to do.  
This is just my opinion of what a lot of people experience.  

Since we believe that the paranormal field is very powerful and 
sometimes dangerous, it seems especially important to use care and 
sense when using it.  Whatever your method of care and sense is will
probably do just fine.  If you don't have any ideas, there are lots
of good suggestions from other people.  I feel that whatever you think 
will work for you, will.

I don't know any answers or facts...so I just try to have respect and
awareness to keep myself out of trouble.  No matter what you're up
against, having the highest possible attitude at all times is the 
best protection you can give yourself.

Jerri    
    

    The previous replies contain much good advice, so I'll be brief.
    
    In asking "what should I do" the inquirer has made the first step to
    a safe approach.
    
    What scares me is when Oiuja or Tarot or the like are sold neatly packaged
    up with a booklet describing them as "party games". If played in that
    way they may be 99.95% safe, but they *can* go wrong. I described an
    event (in the "proof" topic) where a tarot reading went awry. I also
    recall an incident from my younger days were a ouija session went bad
    ... nothing drastic or that couldn't be dealt with, but the people
    manipulating the board were scared silly by the events (one of the watchers
    was a sensitive, and an adolescent as well -- the session triggered
    a very intense poltergeist event). Fortunately one of the older attendees
    was able to defuse the situation.
    
    No: Tarot and Ouija are *not* games. You wouldn't sell a functional
    firearm and ammunition as a toy, would you?
    
    /. Ian .\

    Perhaps this sounds to obvious, but,dabbling, does this mean someone
    who reads their horoscope daily,but with no background in astrology
    does dabble in astrology? Or reads these notes on tarot ouija etc
    does dabble in these arts?
    A person who has used/been around ouija/tarot as parlor games has
    dabbled?
    I believe in the power,so I do not attempt to harness channel use
    or control any of it. But I like many others have a natural curiosity
    about many of the topics disscused in this notes file.
    Although I feel "out of my leaque" so to speak. Perhaps someone
    could help instruct or discourage me in my haphazard approch to
    satisfying my curiosity... Thank you 
    Tom 
      

    Re .13: [love the number!]
    
    "Dabbling" is unequal to "reading about."  It means "trying it out
    without taking it seriously."  For instance, in the note I wrote,
    "A Sinister Seance," the people who twisted Trevor's arm to conduct
    a seance thought they were just having fun -- sort of a parlor game.
    When something actually started to happen, it was only because Trevor
    _was_ an experienced occultist that things were kept under control.
    
    Ouija boards are also often thought of as games.  This is exemplified
    in, of all things, a movie [a pretty bad one, too], _Amityville
    II: The Demon_.  In this film, some teenagers go ou to the Amityville
    house, where (according to the film) all kinds of Bad Things have
    been happening, including multiple deaths.  "Oh!" says one of the
    teen girls.  "Let's have a seance."  And she brings out a Ouija
    board.  Now forgetting that the actual Amityville thing has been
    demonstrated to be a hoax, and that the terminology was wrong, and
    a few other things of that ilk, what's important here is the
    _attitude_.
    
    The idea that "It's a game," or "it's something we can hack around
    with," or "well, it's BS, but it'd be _fun_," are what's invvolved
    when someone "dabbles."
    
    A hypothetical instance:  Suppose someone digs up a copy of a grimoire
    [a Medieval book of ceremonial magic techniques] and decides it
    would be fun to have a party where they'll try one of the old spells
    to raise a demon; further suppose that someone there has enough
    of the Talent to work the spells, but doesn't realize it.  Now,
    "for fun," these people light candles, do the chants, and .... when
    they're through, there's a demon.  But suppose since they thought
    it was "just a game" they didn't take any of the precautions (such
    as standing inside a Circle with apropriate wards and restricting
    the demon to a manifestatory triangle thaty's been appropriately
    ciircumscribed).  Such people would be in _serious_ trouble!
    
    In most occult disciplines, the old idea of masters and apprentices
    was established, not as an ego-trip for the master, but so that
    the apprentice could learn without being too badly burned in the
    process.
    
    The same is true of the less occult aspects of paranormal
    investigations.  The psi-entific studies require discipline and
    control.  This means that rather than going off willy-nilly, an
    investigator has to learn system, procedure, and limitations in
    order to get the best results and for protection, not only for himself
    or herself, but fopr others that may be associated with them.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Thank you for you informitive reply. I do and have not dabbled it
    would seem. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction to
    satisfy my curiosity/help me into a new circle of friends?
     By the way, Im based in marlboro mro 1/3 thanks again Tom

    When I was eighteen years of age my mother and I were very curious
    about the ouija board. So we wnt  out and purchased one.
    
    We asked all kinds of so called foolish questions, like would I
    get married and where would I live and answered them all to my liking
    of course. Then we asked about my brother who was three and a half
    years younger than me. Questions like would he graduate from high
    and go to college, would he mary and have children and what kind
    of profession would he be in etc. All questions were answered with
    a negative response and ended with the number seventeen. We couldn't
    understand the rationale. 
    
    At the age of seventeen my brother passed away due to a brain tumor
    that was malignant. It scared the hell out of us and since then
    have not touched or thought about a ouija board.
    
    Also it told me the name of my husband and mentioned that he would
    be traveling to kentucky for a long period of time. He served his
    army time in Kentucky. It also said that I would have three children
    and so far I have only two. At age forty I don't think there's a
    possiblity of a third. But who knows.
    
    		Nancy

    re: .0
    
    The occult is bad business.  Frankly, it scares me, and should you
    too!  I'm basically with Steve K. (.8)  There are many powers and
    energies in this world.  Haven't you tried to understand the "other
    planes" of existence?  There is no such thing as "cleansing" and
    so on.  Black Magic and White Magic are the same thing.  There are
    only negative energies behind this guise.
    
    I hate to seem like I'm rambling, however, ouija boards, pentagrams,
    white candles and olive oil...People do loose their minds after
    an encounter with the evil.
    
    There is an excellent book out by Mike Warnkle (sp?) Pick it up
    at the Harvest Book Store, it's called "The Satan Sellers".  This
    book will put to rest any questions about the occult you presently
    have.  It goes into great detail about so called white magic which
    is a lure...The entity makes you think everything is good, then
    WAM!  It gets worse from there!
    
    Take up an interesting hobby like raising birds or something.  Leave
    the demons alone!
    
    To take it one step further, I firmly believe that because of
    inexperience and trust in occcult matters, these evil energies that
    have been let loose are responsible for the way of the world today!
    
    Jean H
    

    Re .17:
    
>        re: .0
>    
>    The occult is bad business.  Frankly, it scares me, and should you
>    too!  I'm basically with Steve K. (.8)  ....
    
    Well, I can't say that I believe "the occult is bad business"; however,
    I _do_ believe many people get into it for the wrong reasons (e.g.,
    power trips, greed, envy) and those folk are ripe targets for the
    darker side ofthe subject.
    
>        .....               There is no such thing as "cleansing" and
>    so on.  Black Magic and White Magic are the same thing.  There are
>    only negative energies behind this guise.  
    
    I must disagree here: _any_ system has balance or it disintegrates.
    Magic, which some Adepts can practice, is like electricity: dangerous
    and deadly if used wrongly or by the inexperienced.  It is something
    I most emphatically do _not_ suggest people try to take up casually;
    double or triple that with the ceremonial form.  
    
>                                  .....    "The Satan Sellers".  This
>    book will put to rest any questions about the occult you presently
>    have.  It goes into great detail about so called white magic which
>    is a lure...The entity makes you think everything is good, then
>    WAM!  It gets worse from there!   
    
    "The occult" is a large field.  The phrase, "The entity" in your
    exposition implies dealing with an individual creature of some sort.
     There are areas of the discipline (e.g., dowsing) that don't require
    contact with any entity.  I think you're speaking primarily of
    ceremonial magic and/or channeling.     
                                       
>                                                        .....      Leave
>    the demons alone! 
    
    Seconded!  Dealing with demons is a _very_ dangerous thing, even
    for an expert.   That's why .0 ...
    
>        To take it one step further, I firmly believe that because of
>    inexperience and trust in occcult matters, these evil energies that
>    have been let loose are responsible for the way of the world today!
 
    An interesting thought, and worth some thought.  "Inexperience"
    I'll buy; "trust," I'll reserve judgement on.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                          

re -.2 [Scared stiff]

Caution IS a good watchword.  However, I have to disagree on the Black and 
White Magic being the same thing.

Just as there is good and evil, up and down, in and out, there is positive 
and negative energy [like Steve said, similar to electricity].

Way back when [1984] I dismissed everything dealing with the paranormal.  
My soon-to-be-ex-wife [then] confessed that she was Wiccan, which 
frightened me at first [being raised a Roman Catholic].

However, to make a long story short, I married a Wiccan this past February 
28th.  Since I opened my mind up in 1985, I have been MUCH more in tune 
with my surroundings.  It may be a coincidence, but I have noted some 
curious coincidences in my life.

Since I started wearing a pentacle [right-side-up] in mid-February, I have 
returned to my usual good health.  I haven't beend truly sick for a single 
day.  This includes being in a house full of people with the flu and not 
getting it.

My attitudes shifted somewhat.  Because of that, I have unloaded an 
unbelievable amount of stress that was doing me no good.

I see things more in a cause-and-effect manner.  Also, the wheel principle 
[what goes around, comes around] is a guiding influence.

Startling predictions [made 3 years ago, and again 1.5 years ago] have 
turned true, when I never thought it would be possible.

What I'm saying is, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  Yes, 
there are a LOT of things to be 'respectful' of.  But it's not _all_ bad.  
There are two sides to every coin.

Pax,
dj

Hi guys.  I guess it's about time I jumped into this conference... feet
first since I'm not certain how deep the water is... :^)

>Caution IS a good watchword.  However, I have to disagree on the Black and 
>White Magic being the same thing.

Black and White Magick are simply labels used to differentiate whether the
talent is being used for egocentric purposes or for "higher" purposes. 
Though negative energies can be used for White Magick, it becomes extremely
dangerous in practice... negative energies are much harder to control and,
since there is always danger that some of the effects will linger long after
the "magickal operation", it can leave the Adept open to negative influences
later.  In this context, there is no difference between the two classifications
of magick. (Likewise, positive energies can linger...)

>Just as there is good and evil, up and down, in and out, there is positive 
>and negative energy [like Steve said, similar to electricity].

The biggest difference between electricity and psychic energy, in theory,
is that positive energy attracts positive energy, and negative energy attracts
negative energy.  As psychic facilities open up, you become more sensitive
to the psychic energies around you.  Because of this, the person who deals
with the negative energies takes on certain aspects of the beings that s/he
deals with.  This is like "tuning" to an energy frequency; the vibrational
frequency of the beings/sphere with which you are working.

Another "gotcha" here, is that your subconscious mind can be easily influenced
by symbols.  Though we don't communicate with it directly, it receives 
information from the conscious mind "filtered" by our past experiences. 
These experiences include the religious teachings of our youth, fears that
we may not consciously remember the basis for, and our recent memories.  This
makes some things difficult to interpret.  This can lead to paranoia, hysteria,
and other bad psychological conditions... even in dealing with positive 
energies.

The best "protection" is a well founded system of beliefs, strong connections
with your God (however you perceive Him/Her), and purity of intentions.
Along with this you need to follow your own inner self... you really do
*know* when you are playing with fire.

Like others have stated so succinctly, the occult is not something to "dabble"
with.  If you are a careful student of the occult, "dabbling" with things
you do not understand will be the furthest thing from your mind.

The Universal Laws are absolutely unforgiving.


						-- Mike

    
    re: good and evil
    
    The notion of 'good' energy and 'evil' energy is strictly a Western
    idea: It implies right and wrong. Really they are just *opposite*
    one another, neither right nor wrong; two balancing forces (yin/yang).
    There must be equal measures of both energies for harmony in the
    universe to occur.
    
    -Perry
    

	Maybe it's also part of a theory I once heard that we need
	'evil' to be able to recognize 'good'.

	It's hard to make judgments without a point of reference.

						-- Mike

                                                   
    I'm in the process of reading "People Of The Lie" by M.Scott Peck
    (who also wrote "The Road Less Traveled").
    
    Though I'm only 1/4 the way into the book, I would highly recommend
    that some of the people in this particular topic read it.  It is
    about evil in our society - and how to go about recognizing it for
    what it truly is, and for what it isn't.  
    
    Even though you may not agree with the ideas put forth in the book, 
    it does make for some thought-provoking reading.
    
    There are references to "The Road Less Traveled" in "People Of The
    Lie".  It is not necessary that you read "The Road Less Traveled"
    beforehand, however I would recommend that you do so just to be
    able to better follow that logic that is presented.
    
    Cindy

Re .21:
>        re: good and evil
>    
>    The notion of 'good' energy and 'evil' energy is strictly a Western
>    idea: It implies right and wrong. Really they are just *opposite*
>    one another, neither right nor wrong; two balancing forces (yin/yang).
                 
    
    
>        < Note 12.0 by PEN::KALLIS >
>                              -< Rushing In ... >-
>
>A word of caution in psychic experimentation:  there are too many experi-
>ments done by innocents that can cause a lot of injury.  There are a lot
>of people who posit the following:
>
>1)  Good and evil are relative terms.
>2)  Experimentation reqires expanding one's horizon in *all* directions.
>3)  Sometimes the greater good requires something you might at first
>     sight consider "wrong."
>
>      But there is a difference between snitching a grape from
>a grocer and robbing a bank, though there is a moral eqivalency.  Someone
>might say "such-and-such a process] is *so* fascinating!"  Maybe so; so is
>a spitting cobra.  That doesn't mean you should play with either.
>
>          But before one embarks on a line of investigation, it's probably
>a good idea to consider the consequences of a specific course of action.
>
>Can it harm you or someone else?  If so, watch out!
>Will it be used *primarily* for personal gain (as opposed to enlighten-
> (ment)?  If so, take care!
>Does it make a statement about the illusion of good and evil?  If so, it's
> probably a trap.  
>    
>    
>    
>Evil is a matter of symbolism and intent.  But often, its trappings
>can be very seductive.
    
    Again, take care.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.                                                       

    re: .17
    
    I disagree that all magic is bad.  However, if you are unfamiliar
    with what it is that you are doing, or are doing it for the wrong
    reasons, such as to control someone or gain unfair advantage over
    them, it will certainly have bad repercussions.  I don't understand
    what you mean by "there is no such thing as 'cleansing'".  It certainly
    does work, and does not have bad repercussions on the operator if
    it is done by someone knowledgeable and for the right reasons.  Money
    is not a 'right' reason - the desire to help someone is.  
    
    Ultimately though, if you are talking about raised power (magic
    performed by the operator acting alone), certainly it is all the
    same power, and how it is used is completely in the hands of the
    user.  The same power can be used for healing or cursing.  However,
    if you are talking about called down power (magic obtained by the
    operator asking God/Goddess for His/Her help), the type of power
    is based on whether the god in question is good or not.  Most gods
    that are worshipped are good - most sane people do not wish to worship
    evil.  However, if the deity in question is something with no redeeming
    qualities, such as the Christian Devil, Cthulhu, etc., it seems
    doubtful that anyone would ask them for help with magic to be done
    for good.
    
    Indeed, people sometimes do loose their mind after working magic
    that they did not sufficiently prepare themselves for.  Again, it
    is important to know what you are doing.  Steve has some very useful
    information on this subject in his not titled "Rushing In".  Pentagrams
    are a religious symbol to Wiccans much as crosses are religious symbols
    to Christians.  It is a representation of the elements, as well
    as to man.  I do not understand your reference to olive oil...
    
    All occult is not, and I repeat NOT SATANISM!!!  There is far too
    much literature on the market that tries to perpetuate this belief.
    You have to determine good things from evil things by how they act;
    it is not a provable quality.  Many people completely restrict their
    occult activities to such things as healing, helping locate lost
    articles, and so forth.  I have yet to see any explanation for their
    'evilness' that was not based either on ignorance or a blanket
    unsupported statement that 'all occult is evil'.
    
    "Leave the demons alone!"  I couldn't agree more!
    
    I also agree that many evil energies have been let loose.  However,
    most of it was not done by occultist.
    
    Elizabeth
     

re .25

Elizabeth,

	I couldn't have said it better myself.

					dj

    
    
    RE: .19
    
    Could somebody tell me what exactly a Wiccan is?
    
    

    Re .27:
    
    A Wiccan is one who follows one of the paths of good ["white"]
    witchcraft.  A Wiccan is not a Christian, nor, for that matter,
    a Jew or Moslem: Wicca is a religion, based on a goddess (of three
    aspects: maiden, mother, and crone) and her consort; the primary
    focus is on the goddess.  Wicca is ==>not<== to be confused with
    Satanic witchcraft, which is a perverted form of Christianity. 
    The two are quite different and are based on mutually exclusive
    belief systems.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

    RE .27:
    
    I for the most part agree with Steve, but I want to be a little
    pickier about who exactly a Wiccan is.
    
    It is a pre-Christian religion of Northern Europe, which worships
    both a Great God and a Great Goddess, in three aspects.  There are
    other Pagan religions that came from the Native Americans, the Africans,
    and other peoples.  These people are Pagan, but not Wiccan.  And
    to vehemently reiterate what was said in .28, Wicca is *NOT* Satanism.
    Satan is not even part of the Wiccan belief system.
    
    Elizabeth