Conference hydra::dejavu

    	The Greek philosophers considered anger to be a form of temporary
    insanity, and thus warned against leaving any angry feelings
    uncontrolled.
    
    	Larry
    

    
    
    The experiences I have had along this line started a few years
    ago.  I began to understand (as many others have too) that many
    of my angry responses are based upon past experiences as a child
    and really are inappropriate to the current situations.  At some
    point, I began seeing my child-self in my mind's eye and I could
    could see "her/me" having tantrums and whatever.  The adult me
    did not necessarily have to carry them out.  I take the child
    into my arms, tell her I love her and that she doesn't have to
    react that way and then I just let her sit on my lap and I talk with
    her.  It is a means by which my past can be healed, and I allow
    myself to embrace the parts of me that I had grown to dislike.
    And I can allow myself to be angry when it is appropriate.  There
    are still those times when the two mix together, however, it is
    no longer quite the automatic reaction it was. 
    
    Carole
    

    Gee, Dave! Your base note was SO descriptive of me, that I
    sent it to the man in my life (who also has to deal with
    my "monster").  I find that that same monster whispers to
    me when I am feeling indecisive or insecure, and really
    fuels my fears.  Some of the scenarios that are conjured up
    in my mind would put a fiction writer to shame!!  THen pretty
    soon the voice of logic and reality start talking to me and
    I realize how much I am overreacting.
    
    

    	Is it good to separate feelings of anger from yourself?
    Personifying this emotion may be good to observe it better, but
    to make it a separate entity alos seems to me to be an avoidance
    of responsibility for one's anger.  Emotions may not be us in whole,
    but they are part of us, and I think dealing with the fact that
    anger is occuring because of us and not some "creature" is a much
    better way to deal with this emotion.
    
    	Larry
    

    Thanks for bringing this up, Dave.  I tend to occassionally
    have a bit of a temper and I try to understand why I react
    the way that I do.  I agree with another note that sometimes
    I feel past experiences stirred within my mind.
    

Personally, I don't feel that my anger is seperate from myself, just an
ugly part of myself.  I have not yet found out what causes my temper tantrums. 
There are certain times when I feel more likely to lose my temper.  A specific
event might make me blow up one day and another day have no effect. On alot
of these days when I'm more likely to lose my temper, I can't for the life
of me figure out what it is that caused this mood.  My wife will ask me,
"Did you have a bad day?".  And I think, "No, it was an ok day".  It really
bothers me to be so grouchy when nothing negative really happened that day.
I don't know about others but I think that I express sadness as anger. You
know, men aren't supposed cry and all that.  Anger will not release the
pressure of sadness.  Does anyone else feel that their sadness is sometimes
expressed as anger?

		Dave

    That seems to be a common connection.  When you think about it,
    it kind of makes sense, that pain and anger are connected.  Something
    causes you pain, and you become angry at what caused the pain. 
    Sort of analogous to kicking the rock you stubbed your toe on. (I'll
    teach you to hurt me, you piece of ____ you!)
    
    The inner child is the one who has those type of responses most
    frequently, it seems.  I think highly Carole's suggestion of imagining
    taking the child in your arms to comfort him/her.
    
    Marcia

    Anger is part of one's self, yet each of us contains complexities.
     When one or another aspect of ourselves is most significant [I
    shun the word "dominant"], particularly in a situation that is
    conducive to the operation of that aspect, it's hard to control.
    
    Anger has its place: in the distant past, it was a survival tool.
    Often, however, in our more complex societies, it manifests itself
    as a violent reaction to an unacceptable level of frustration.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Wow...if there was anything we could all relate to, it's the subject
    of the base note.  I've read a lot about anger and came across a
    lot of explanations for it.  Here are the ones that come to mind
    immediately:
    
      - Anger has certain payoffs (we think), and that's what keeps
        us devoted to using it.  Payoffs such as, having an excuse
        for doing something you wouldn't do normally because you're 
        out of control..."I didn't know what I was doing, I was angry."
        Or using it for intimidation when you want to get your way.
        Or using it so someone will feel sorry for you because you're
        SO upset.  I know this reason is the hardest to accept in
        ourselves, but we really are that devious.
    
      - Anger is also a habit learned from childhood.  We watched adults
        use anger to force their way, and we learned that this was what
        we needed to do also, as humans.  Like all bad habits, abusive
        anger has to be unprogrammed...but it IS possible.
    
    I feel that the biggest reason of all for anger is not loving 
    ourselves.  Because when you love yourself, you are kind, and patient,
    and understanding...and there is no room, or reason, for anger.
    You can't love someone else if you don't love yourself, so when
    you think it's someone else that is MAKING you mad, it's really
    that you're just not loving yourself.
    
    One of the best ways to settle anger is to think of loving yourself.
    Unfortunately, you've got to agree to do this in the first place
    before it can work.  I don't always do that (even though I may remember
    it) because I WANT to be angry...and I WANT to make a big scene.
    We're all actors and it's fun to be dramatic.  It's exciting.  The
    only trouble is when you forget that you were just "acting" and
    you become convinced of your own great performance.  It helps to
    acknowledge that you're WANTING to be angry, and that you're just
    going to GO FOR IT.  Then scream and yell and make a big fuss, and
    the more often you do this, the shorter and shorter these "out of
    control" states will be...because they'll be boring and less exciting
    when you know you could be choosing something else...like happiness.
    
    Jerri    

    	This topic has given me an idea - would someone want to create
    a PSYCHOLOGY Conference?  I don't believe there is anything like
    it in VAXNotes, and the other Notes on the human condition focus
    more on the biological effects.
    
    	Larry
                                    

As a child I had a really TERRIBLE temper, I would get so angry that I 
would just flail out at anything thing that upset me. Growing older I
learned that this was not socially acceptable and so I suppressed the
anger. This made me a very unhappy person, all of the surpess anger turned
inward, I did not like myself very much at all. After a year of therapy I
learned to see and address my anger directly, when I am angry now I throw
I temper tantrum, sometimes I yell a bit sometimes I break most of the 
glasses in the house :-). But no longer do I push my anger in and I like
myself alot more now. When I get angry now it's like a thunder storm loud
but not very long. When it's all over, it's over I do not hold a grudge as I
would before. And while the ideal might be never to become angry at all I
don't think do many of us are able to do that. And to be perfectly honest
I think that anger has it's place, it's part of the balance of what we are
as people. For instance waste makes me angry, waste of resources, waste of
time, waste of life. I get angry when someone I care about is not being treated
unfairly. I even get angry at snow, "D#@!, snow if I see another inch...", I
channel this anger into my snow shovel :-). These I feel are appropeate uses 
of anger. 

No if I were going to pick on some emotions that I would be better off 
without it would be things like envy, greed, and apathy.

-vicki

p.s. As an aside, I think my way of expressing my anger is very typical of
my sign (Leo). All sound and fury and signifying not much. What do other
people think?

    I'd be interested to hear from people who experience the other end
    of the anger spectrum, where both the expression _and_ the feelings
    themselves are more muted.
    
    I find myself wondering if the tendency to anger is somewhat like
    a person's pain threshold; some people have a very high threshold,
    others have a low one.
    
    I have suffered, like the respondent in 299.17, from an upbringing
    that stifled anger expression completely.  So I do have problems
    expressing it.  But I have also discovered, to my surprise, that
    I just don't anger that easily.  This seems traceable, in my case,
    to:
    
      o	slow responses.  This applies not only to anger, but to all
    	my other feelings.  I just don't "react" in time.  If I receive
        an insult or injury, I go into a reaction that more closely
    	resembles shock.  It takes me usually a few days to have figured
    	out what I felt in the situation.
    
      o	no translation from pain.  Dave wonders if pain and anger are
    	connected, if anger is pain somehow translated.  I think this
    	can be very true in many cases.  And when I receive an emotional
	wound, the pain remains in its pure form; it almost never
    	"transforms".
    
      o	empathy.  When another person displays behavoir that might excite
    	me to an anger response, I find that I tend to identify with
    	the pain (s)he is in.  And this empathy tends to short-circuit 
    	my anger.  Clumsy service people, for instance.  I had those kinds
    	of jobs while in college, and they were sheer torture to me.
    	When I see one either klutzing out or acting up, it recalls 
    	to me the anguish I used to go through, and I don't find myself
    	feeling angry at all.  I will think to myself, "gee this person
    	is really slow/rude/etc." but the thought inspires no anger.
    
    Any other experiences from this end of things?
    
    Marcia         

    
    Anger... Rage... I find it all so overwhelming at times.
    I love my kids but I can also get so angry at them.
    I definately agree that it is all a function of fustration,
    and stress getting the better of me.
    
    What works for us is time to ourselves. Thom NEEDS his bicycle
    rides. His anger flairs at the drop of a hat if he doesn't
    physically dispell all that pent up frustration. I need to
    get out of the house and be with people-other adults-who
    have common interests.If I don't get this-#$&@**%$#!!!
    
    I also agree that loving oneself is very important in dispelling
    anger. When I feel secure, I can handle just about anything the
    kids dish out because I don't feel responsible for their anger.
    
    We all just do our best at the time-(at this very moment Emily
    just spilled her apple juice all over the floor. I just mopped it
    yesterday.@@@@%$#&*!)Gotta go mop the floor.
    
    Renee

    Having just re-read this reply, I have inserted this paragraph
    to define a little more clearly both the point I'm trying to get
    across and my personal definition of "Anger". To this end I
    have disregarded what some may describe as "righteous anger" or
    indignation, and below is a comment on what I would call "Black anger"
    perhaps evil is too strong a word, but it will do. The use of the
    discription "The monster" in preceeding replies is a good one, so
    I have continued to use it here.     
    
    Do we learn to control out anger, as was stated earlier?
    .14 mentions anger being a "Habit learned from childhood"
    What if it is tolerance that the beast within learns to control?
    
    I wonder...............Do we learn anger, or do we learn tolerance?
    Do we "Let the monster out"? or does the monster hold the keys?
    I am ever aware of the monster in the dark within me, but I cannot 
    always see the light. The monster finds it convenient to rest and
    watch most of the time, but his power and presence is by far the stronger.
    
    I do not recall if this was always so, am I so different or is this
    just another angle on the subject? I guess what I am asking here is
    "Why do you presume that humanity is basically good?" I suspect
    that it may not be.
    
        Chris Hall
                (New to this file with a lot of reading to do)
                

Re: .20

I don't know if it's as much a question of "controlling" anger, as "choosing"
out of it.  I believe that we have choices (as long as WE think we do).  If
you don't think you have a choice, then you don't.  

I believe that anger is simply a response to not being able to control
something.

Re: your question "Why do you presume that humanity is basically good?"
Although you referenced my reply earlier in your reply, I'm not sure if you're
asking this question of me or just "anyone" who believes it, but here is my 
answer to that question...  I believe it because that's what I want to believe 
and that's the kind of world I want to live in.  For a long time, I believed 
that people were basically bad, and I was always seeing situations in which 
that was true.  But I started melting into that, feeling very lost, and 
hopeless, and unhappy.  My attitude was...this is a crappy world and it's a 
big mistake that I'm here.  I was filled with self-hate, resentment, and 
confusion.

After having enough of that...to the point of thinking I couldn't stand another
minute of it, I decided to try and find a way out.  I read lots of books and
used the bits and pieces of them that seemed right to me, gradually building a
new attitude of love and acceptance of this world, rather than hate and
resistance.  I think this world can be a lot of things to a lot of people.
It can be a wonderful, happy experience...or it can be a real drag.  Money,
power, fame, etc., have nothing to do with it because there are happy people
with everything, and happy people with nothing.  Likewise, there are unhappy
people with everything, and unhappy people with nothing.  That's why I think
it's a choice...and therefore, humanity just basically IS.  Neither good or
bad, really.  Just IS...with choices.  That's my belief right now.

Jerri

    
    Re:21
    
    Jerri. You have a great way af saying things. A real gift.
    
    Renee

    
    A rule-o-thumb that I recall when I find I'm feeling hostile
    is that anger often is a screen against hurt.  For me, it's 
    the temptation is to take this strong emotion, label it 
    righteous anger and aim it outwards -- rather than face it,
    acknowledge it as hurt, and delve inwards.  To suddenly be hurt
    without warning is a lonely experience.  When others are around,
    we are suddenly witness to an internal tragedy that we cannot
    describe (typically -- more and more my friends and I are able
    to acknowledge such things openly and compassionately, and
    immediately).  "Not Fair!" cries my little internal movie
    critic, the little guy who's expecting my life to be a 
    comedy-love story.
    
    And when I find someone being angry with me, or with another,
    I aim to comfort them as persons hurt -- rather than agree
    with them or argue with them or, maybe worst, judge them for it.
    
    I'm building myself from the inside out now.  I'm building my
    responses, and tuning them to my committment to others.  That is,
    (the timing is perfect: lo, an example!) last night I spoke with
    a friend of mine who just broke up with my best friend.  With
    regard to the troubles they have been having, I have always 
    operated from the ground called "she's to blame."  ("He" is the
    "best friend.")  So I have been hostile with her, in my attitude
    more than my words.  So I called her last night to check how
    she was handling the break up -- and I had an internal struggle
    through the whole conversation.  On one hand, the temptation
    to be right: "That's right, you broke up because of all those
    things wrong with you..."  On the other, my committment to my
    friend to be for her a compassionate listener.  From moment
    to moment, I guided my thoughts, listening to them for when
    I was being uncharitable and letting those thoughts pass away
    until I could be caring again.  Up and down.  I got a one
    heck of a close look at what I have at stake with my attitudes,
    and how careless I am with them.  Through the conversation, I
    kept an eye on myself, and the one valve I kept as tight a
    control over as I could was my mouth.  Whatever I thought could
    become either a brick in her face or a clearing in her jungle,
    depending on whether I spoke from hostility or compassion.
    
    I got to see what a LUXURY it is to hold a negative opinion
    about someone else.  It seems to me now that it is like enjoying
    a pleasure that causes another person to die.  "But they don't
    REALLY die!" calls out my negative side, "they'll get over it."
    
    It's like the choice another person in this conference described,
    between "life is good" and "life is bad."  In the choosing, so it
    becomes so.  For myself, I see now that the quality of my life, and the
    good or harm I do people, hang in the balance of what I choose to be my
    guiding principles.  Either "you are a child of the universe as I am,
    and I love you" ...or "they'll get over it." 
    
    Thanks all, for the chance to talk about this.
    
    					Tom Kelleher

    What this topic goes to show is that anger and rage take many forms
    and need different ways of being handled.
    
    With me, I have been cognisant of 'Andrew' for almost 2 1/2 years.
    I knew I had a 'dark side' for some time.  Being a 'little fat kid'
    at the time meant getting a lot of abuse and not being able to do
    anything about it.  I kept submarining my attempts at letting anger
    out because I was 'supposed to turn the other cheek'.  This attitude
    kept up for several years until one night.
    
    I caught my wife sleeping with another man.  I don't remember much
    about that incident other than seeing this enraged madman take control
    of my body and, more importantly, my voice.  My rational self was
    helpless to do anything but sit back and watch.
    
    Since then I have come to grips with what is apparently something
    that has been subjugated for so long, it has become like another
    self.  There is very definitely a voice in the back of my head
    espousing 'his' views.  Fortunately, although it comes from the
    same place, the tone of voice is different from my 'intuitive higher'
    voice.
    
    Now I have been able to carry on a conversation [if that seems
    possible] with 'Andrew'.  Since "allowing him to air his views"
    I have never had a real problem with losing my temper.  Not to say
    I haven't punched a couple of doors since, but it appears that I
    have found my way of venting some of the anger that has been building
    up for 20 years.
    
    [Gawd I loooove this file!]

    
    Anger is just one letter short of danger.
    
    He is a fool who cannot get angry, but he is a wise man man who will
    not.
    
    Never strike a child! You might miss and hurt yourself.
    
    Hot words never resulted in cool judgement.
    
    He who has a sharp tongue soon cuts his own throat.
    
                                   RM