Conference hydra::dejavu

    The only preceding question I feel competent to answer is the one
    about the stairway to the centre of the earth.
    
    Any geologist would tell you "No", simply because at the pressures
    and temperatures that exist below 100 miles down the innards of
    the earth are close to being a liquid, and any such tunnel would
    require unbelievably strong walls just to stop it from being totally
    squished/melted out of existence.  You would also be having real
    troubles with the plate that the tunnel was on moving across the
    surface of the underlying material, misaligning the top section
    and the bottom.  I suggest you look through a few of the last couple
    of years worth of National Geographic's for a few pretty pictures
    and simple explanations of what the current view of the anatomy
    of the earth is.
    
    /Bevin

    Re .0:
    
    To answer some of the questions --
    
    The whole notion of spiritism is up in the air (no pun intended)
    so to speak.  Some people believe that spirits of departed can manifest
    themselves in this plane; others feel that there are discarnate
    entities that masquerade as spirits in order to deceive us; yet
    others believe that if there are any spirits, they either are elsewhere
    or dormant until some time in the future (as the Christian concept
    of Judgement Day).
    
    Roger Bacon was a friar in Medieval times.  He was born in the early
    1200s, and died in 1294.  He was an early scientist and philosopher.
    Some claimed he was also a practitioner of magic [the real kind].
    Legend (and a playlet) had it that he fabricated a bronze head that
    would answer questions, but it spoke three sentences of philosophy
    and destroyed itself.  Friar Bacon may have discovered or independently
    invented gunpowder, though that's unverified.
    
    Hope these items help.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    In 1980, I had my first reading with a British evidential medium
    (evidential meaning a medium who can pass information from those
    in the spirit world to the person having the reading, with the
    information providing "evidence" of the continued existence of
    the "spirit" person).  My parents passed to spirit in 1974.
    During the reading both of them came to communicate with me.  My
    mother talked about the different activities she observed me doing
    at home, scolded me for not completing some needlwork I had started
    a couple of years before that and for not continuing with my
    artistic expression, and then talked about a little notebook I
    carried with me all the time to journalize my experiences and 
    feelings.  She said that many times she would look over my left
    shoulder as I wrote in the book.  The bottom line to the whole
    reading was to let me know that they were ok and that they were
    still able to be with me, and that they would be in the house
    from time to time.  There was more information from my father as
    well.  
    
    That reading was a turning point in my life - it meant so much to
    know that they were ok and that they cared enough to make the
    effort to communicate, and it was important to them that I had been
    open enough to go to a medium and allow the communication to occur.  
    Also, as the medium told me that day, it is an effort for those in
    spirit to communicate in this way, though it becomes easier the more 
    they do it.
    
    I have had other readings over the years, and plan to have another
    one this January.  
    
    I hope you find some answers to your growing questions.  Godspeed.
    
    C.   

    The name ROGER BACON was given to me as an answer to a question
    by my spirit contact George.He asked me if i knew who the first
    witch was and when i could not answer he gave the name.I had no
    knowledge of this person at all.Thank-you for the answer.Another
    interesting developement.Ive heard some people say that a blessed
    cross placed on the board would burn it.Well,our spirit contact
    george during our conversation asked mylady friend to throw away
    her crosses.He said it was because it was an insult because people
    thought it would protect them from evil and he challenged us to
    place the blessed cross on the board which we did.He proceded to
    move the pointer to the cross and move it about the board with no
    ill effects then he said "you see it doesnot hurt me".Any comments?
    He made the comment "it is very cold here".I said "i thought talking
    with us warmed you"He said "you are too angry"which i was.This seems
    to support the idea that these spirits exist on a low level plane
    where there is low energy and therefore its cold and dark and because
    i was angry my energy was too low to warm him.Comments?

    re .4:
    
    If your "spirit contact" said that people wear crosses to affect
    them from evil, then "demonstrated" that "he" could move the cross
    without harm, then the logical inference is either that "george"
    is trying to demonstrate the cross is inneffective (in which case,
    why bother to throw it away?) or, indirectly, that "he"'s evil! 
    If the latter, "George" is obviously not performing in your interest.
    ...
    
    Roger Bacon was no witch; the first witch of which there's record
    is Circe, back in the Homeric times.  The witches of that era were
    primarily goddess-worshippers, either in many-aspects-of-the-Earth-
    Mother or as individual goddesses.  A favorite was Hecate, in Asia
    Minor.  _Had_ Bacon been a witch, he certainly would have been a
    johnny-come-lately. 
    
    Based on the input you've been getting, I'd be very wary of taking
    any messages from "George" at face value.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    RE: .4
    
    I agree with Steve, that if the crosses are merely ineffective totems,
    why should he tell your friend to throw them away?  I can't
    imagine any good entity, Christian or not, who would insist that
    you get rid of your crosses.  I would be wary of him.
    
    Roger Bacon was not a witch.  I believe he was a magician of some
    sort.  Even if he was, he was far later Greek witches that have
    been mentioned, and later than the Celtic religion that modern Wicca
    has evolved from.
    
    I firmly believe that Ouiji boards are dangerous, especially if
    you have not taken an extreme number of precautions to protect
    yourself.  You never know what kind of scum you may attract, and
    possibly be unable to get rid of once you have summoned them.
    
    Be careful,
    
    Elizabeth

    I think there is more here than meets the eye.
    
    (Perhaps involving concepts that even  National Geographic has yet to 
    explore :-)  
                
    Keep searching...
    

    Re .6, .7:
    
    It might be worthwhile perusing Note 14 ("Rushing In").
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

      I have discovered through my contact with George that we continue
    to have the same attitudes and opinions as in life.Our personality
    is the same and our beliefs.George is very bitter about church.He
    blames God for his failed marriage.He said he liked church(he was
    catholic)but when he had problems in his marriage he pleaded for
    help but received none.He openly admits to being a witch and being
    evil.He does go into his earthly life quite a bit if prompted.He
    told us of christmas in his time and the things they did.He also
    has quite a chavinistic attitude about women to the extreme.He was
    shocked to learn that women could vote and have careers in business
    and where pants.He commented "i suppose women could smoke and drink
    next".We had to tell him.He said men were weak and let things get
    out of control.Interesting.He seems to have very little knowledge
    of todays technology.
        As far as religion he is bitter.At first he showed some fear
    but later it became apparent that it was resentment and bitterness.He
    doent fear crosses or the bible.Crosses and bibles have been put
    on the board and has no effect.

    RE: .9  (Mike)
    
    >He openly admits to being a witch and being evil.
    
    Please see the topic titled "What is a Witch" for details, but I
    would like to say emphatically that witches are not evil, nor are
    they Satanists.  Wicca is a nature religion, focusing on growth,
    healing, and the general well being of the inhabitants of this planet.
    
    George's chauvinism, like the Roger Bacon story, indicates that he is
    bringing up witchcraft for show.  Woman in the Wicca religion are the
    leaders, and the Goddess is more worshipped than the God, in most
    groups. 
    
    The fact that George will talk of an earthly existence does not
    mean that he actually experienced it.  He could have made it up
    or based it on someone else's life.  It might be interesting to
    check up on the facts of the person that George claims to be (where
    did he live?  What was his name?  Who were his relatives?  What
    did he do for a living?  How did he die?)
    
    Quite frankly, I don't trust George as far as I could throw an
    elephant.  
    
    An interesting side note, is that this is my second attempt at writing
    this.  My first attempt died with a strange error message that I've
    never seen before.  Hmmmm.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    Re .9, .10:
    
    Taking gentle exception to Elizxabeth -- although the majority of
    witches are white and nonevil, there are evil and Satanic people
    who call themselves witches and practice perverted versions of other
    traditions (as well as perverted Christianity).
    
    re "George": anything that openly admits being evil is something
    not to be trusted.  It's the spiritual equivbalent of scum, and
    ought to be avoided.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    RE:  .11  (Steve)
    
    There are evil people who call themselves witches, but are, in fact,
    Christians who have the good-guys and the bad-guys confused.  These
    are not really witches.  In fact, Anton Levey, a well-known satanist
    is now telling his people to not call themselves witches - they
    have had too many problems with offended Wiccans.
    
    Still, I agree with Steve 100% - any entity that admits being evil
    is spiritual scum.
    
    Elizabeth
    

RE: various previous replies.
    
    Whoa -- lets not go overboard.  I too would council a strong caution
    in taking anything that George tells you, but I think that there
    is an edge of paranoia in some of the previous replies.
    
    As I (as a non-Christian) understand it, most Christian theology
    demands that Christians admit to themselves and to others that they
    are, as a result of original sin, intrinsically evil.
    
    George says that he was once a living Catholic, that in life he
    was a sinner, and that he has been condemed to Hell for it.  Clearly
    he is evil (tainted) and his evilness has been demonstrated by his
    doom.  George has furthermore demonstrated despair (he claims that
    there is no heaven -- there is punishment for the wicked and oblivion
    for the good).  Didn't St. Augustine (or maybe it was someone else)
    claim that the usually described torments of hell are incidental
    but that the *real* punishement is despair?
    
    The question comes down to is George "evil" in the sense of an
    essentially evil spirit (e.g., Satan) or in the human sense of being
    tainted?
    
    As far as the cross goes --
    
    George has said that the cross is insulting, and so it is.  Wouldn't
    you be annoyed if you were trying to engage in a conversation and
    someone kept waving a cross in your face?
    
    George has demonstrated that the cross and the Bible are not total
    anathama to him and has presented a fairly reasonable explanation
    for why he would like to see the cross disposed of so either
    
    	1) George is not effected by the cross because he is evil only
    	   in the sense of being humanly "tainted" by evil.  There is
    	   no reason to believe (to say the least) that simple contact
    	   with a cross is painful to, say, an unrepentant murderer.
     	   He is not unreasonably insulted by the presence of the cross.
    
    	2) George is a truly evil spirit and is uneffected by the cross
    	   because that is superstition.  He still wants the cross out
    	   of the way because it is insulting and annoying.
    
    	3) George is a truly evil spirit and is hurt or limited by the
    	   cross but not completely stopped.  He wishes the cross gone
    	   because of this.
    
    I don't think that we have any facts or even hints which allow us
    to decide between these 3 (or a 4th alternative, which is that George
    is a good spirit and is masquerading as evil for positive reasons
    unknown to us).  Personally, under the circumstances I would keep
    the cross (even as a non-Christian) but try not to be obnoxious
    about it.
    
    					Topher

    While I would agree that R. Bacon was not a witch, he certainly
    has been accused of this in the past.  Bacon is credited, in part,
    with the invention of modern experimental science (as is his namesake
    of 2 (I think) centuries later, Francis Bacon (of "Shakespear was
    written by Bacon" fame) which leads to no end of confusion between
    the two -- a good claim can be made for either one).
    
    He was an avid experimentalist and inventor (he is credited with
    the invention of specticles for example).  Unfortunately, one of
    his areas of scientific interest was alchemy (he could be called
    the first true chemist).  This, aided and abetted by politics and
    philosophy, got him imprisoned by the Church.
    
    					Topher

    
        Has anyone ever heard of people being hurt by an Ouija board?
    I've read the base note on Ouija experienes and have noticed
    certain warnings from people in this notes file, i.e., "don't
    fool around with ouija boards, they can be dangerous, etc".
    
        I'd be curious to know what type of harm could come from
    an ouija board, besides the fear factor....which could be high.
    
    Jeanne
    

    I heard this story from a friend of the woman involved.
    
    This woman had been contacting a Ouiji board, and contacted this
    spirit that called itself John (I don't remember this detail, but
    it was a common man's name).  She and John became the best of friends.
    She spent lots of time talking to John because her husband was gone
    a lot because of his job.  Next thing she knew, she started seeing
    an apparition around the house.  Contact with John through the Ouiji
    board indicated that the apparition was John.  She was pleased.
    Next, she started hearing him talk to her.  He said some very nice
    things to her, compliments, even told her that he loved her.  This
    went on for awhile, and she was very happy about that.  Next she
    wasn't so happy.  John said that he wanted the woman to himself,
    and started telling her that he wanted her to kill her husband,
    so he could have her to himself.  She didn't want to do that, so
    she refused.  Then strange accidents started happening to her husband,
    and John was angry because she wouldn't help him kill the husband.
    He started calling her names, things that she had to ask her husband
    what they meant.  He questioned her to where she had heard things
    like that, and she told him the whole story.  He called a priest,
    who got John away from them, and out of their lives.  From what
    I heard she will never touch anything resembling the occult again.
    
    Essentially what a Ouiji board is/does is to call up whatever entities
    may be listening.  They may be good, evil, or neutral.  There are
    some protective things that one can put up if one thinks he may
    be contacting an evil entity, but most Ouiji board users don't know
    about them, or one can put up filters to only talk to good entities,
    but again, most Ouiji board users don't.  I think the fact that
    Ouiji boards are so readily available is like handing out loaded
    guns - sooner or later they are going to cause trouble for someone.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    Re .15
    
    I believe the first Ouija note is around #5 [type Dir/title=ouija
    to get a full list of all Ouija-based Notes].  It might be instructive
    to check some of those oput, too.
    
    A Ouija _may_ be used as a sort of psychic resonator/amplifier that
    could attract discarnate entities [doesn't have to be, but if one
    or more of the users are psychic sensitives ...].  And unless you
    know what you are doing, particularly if you've no training in psychic
    protection, it's more like driving a car iver a salt flat while
    blindfolded: you might get away with it, but you also might hit
    something...
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

RE: .15
    
    Personally, I think that there are several major dangers to the Ouija
    board.
    
    First, obsession (no I *didn't* mean "possesion").  Almost any
    enjoyable activity *can* become obsessive.  Certain activities
    (including programming) seem particulary prone to it.  Ouija seems
    to be in that category.  Obsession can result in quite strange symptoms
    in otherwise quite sane and normal individuals -- including
    hallucinations and unconscious activities.  (And yes -- I know of
    such cases involving seemingly innocuous obsessions such as programming
    and fantasy role playing).  The only "perfect" way of avoiding
    obsession is to never do anything enjoyable.  A more realistic way
    is to look out for the symptoms in yourself (and promise yourself
    to listen to your friends if they see them).  Symptoms include
    excessive amounts of time spent on the obsessive activity, much
    time spent thinking about the activity when not actually engaged
    in it, loss of interest in other activities and withdrawal from
    social contacts not involved with the activity.  Obsession is not
    "crazy" -- anyone can become obsessive if just the right activity
    comes along at just the right time.
    
    Second, deception.  Whatever the nature of the personalities contacted
    via Ouija (or via other forms of autoism, trance mediumship or lucid
    dreaming) not all of them have your best interests at heart.  Some
    will "feed" you information which, if you belive it, may make you
    act against your own best interests.  Some can be quite subtle,
    weaving in a few hurtful lies in with much truth.  It is possible
    for them to keep a "good" mask on for years and seemingly suddenly
    turn against you.  In this, they are just like people, but are
    frequently more extreme.  There is much you can learn, but accept
    *nothing* on faith.
    
    Third, physical manifestations.  The Spiritualists were the great
    explorers of contact with the supposedly dead.  Their experience
    indicates quite strongly that the "spirit", in order to provide
    physical manifestations require special "channels" known as physical
    mediums.  The implication is that certain individuals have special
    "psychokinetic" talents which they are unable to access, but which
    can be accessed by the spirits to produce physical effects.  Most
    such manifestations are relatively weak (tappings and table tipping
    with occasional table levitation).  Very, very few are harmful.
    I am not absolutely sure that any of this is real, but I suspect
    it is.  I think that really negative effects are only likely to
    be triggered with the Ouija board if they are ready to anyway --
    that without the Ouija board they would manifest themself anyway
    either as an obvious poltergeist or more covertly (e.g. accident
    proneness).  All this is *very* rare.  Simple protective rituals
    are quite likely to create a climate which would make them even
    more rare.  In any case, the minute things seem to start going sour
    -- quit.
    
    Essentially I disagree with others here.  "Driving" a Ouija board
    is probably safer than driving a car (let's not forget how dangerous
    that is), and much of the danger can be averted by using common
    sense and care.
    
    		   			Topher

    re .18:
    
    Topher, in a sense I agree with you; in another, I take slight exception.
    Whether "real" or not, in some hands, the Ouija apparently has caused
    some distress or worse.
    
    As long as the Ouija board is treated like a parlor game or toy,
    its potential for harm is at a maximum.   Protective rituals or
    other means of filtering out "badness" can't hurt; however, note
    that some people asking for information have done so after the fact.
    I believe the cautionary notes are in order.  If one errs somewhat
    on the side of safety, so be it.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I went intothis blind and very skeptical.I have learned a lot in
    a short time.I have read as much as i can and have considered everyones
    responses.At this point i believe i am in contact with a spirit.As
    i get to know him it is apparent that he had done some real bad
    things in his life.His personality and attitudes are to me very
    poor.He also has a bad temper which has caused a lot of his problems.He
    admits to being evil(at least in his eyes)which is quite reasonable
    considering he admited to murdering at least two people and causing
    the death of his 4yr old daughter.I find him to be interesting but
    also dangerous.He cannot be trusted.I have communicated with him
    to get some answers and find at this point little interest in
    continuing it because of his background.I would much rather talk
    with good spirits.I didnt think good spirits could be contacted
    through Ouija boards.At least i havnt heard of anybody doing it.Im
    still interested in trying to find info on George to confirm his
    existance since i have his name and the year he died and where.I
    believe our own fears can create problems for ourselves so its always
    good to get in the proper frame of mind before attempting the
    experiment either by protection ritual or other means to set a very
    positive attitude.At this point i dont think the Ouija board is
    a good thing to use because of the bad spirits.I would like to know
    how to contact good spirits.Has anyone had any experience with that?
    BYW thank you all for your help and concern.
                                                MIKE
    

    Mike, I can't help but feel that you would be much better off
    consulting a human counsellor, such as a psychiatrist or a minister
    of your preferred religion, than a piece of wood that may be reflecting
    your internal turmoil, some satanic influence, or some rather obviously
    disturbed and ignorant spirit.
    
    /Bevin 

    Re .20, .21:
    
    I think it's wise you have decided to try other approaches than
    the Ouija, as mentioned in previous replies.  
    
    As to contacting "the departed," I've heard inconclusive arguments
    on both sides of bthat issue.  The late Erich ("Harry Hoidini) Weiss
    spent a great deal of time trying to contact the spirit of his mother;
    as a professional (stage) magician, though, he saw through so many
    fraudulent spiritualiasts that he actually mounted a crusade against
    them (the most notorious/famous being the "Margery" case).
    
    With regards to Bevin's comments: stated after the fact about the
    Ouijas board.  Whether "professional" help is best is something
    neither I nor anyone other than yourself can know.
    
    My thoughts go with you.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re .18
    
    Fantasy role playing become obsessive!!!
    
    How dare you.  Draw your broadsword.  Roll for reaction.
    
    ;-)
    Dave

    Just to let everyone know i havnt found any direct evidence yet,that
    is,records of births,deaths etc.I am going to challenge George to
    give me something that i can verify to prove that he existed.I have
    been getting some help so far nothing has turned up but i plan to
    keep pursuing it until i am convinced one way or the other.
                                     MIKE