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Conference hydra::dejavu

Title:Psychic Phenomena
Notice:Please read note 1.0-1.* before writing
Moderator:JARETH::PAINTER
Created:Wed Jan 22 1986
Last Modified:Tue May 27 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2143
Total number of notes:41773

220.0. "I understand time, until I think about it..." by TLE::BRETT () Tue Oct 07 1986 00:39

    "If time is another dimension, why can't we travel in it as easily
    as we can the others"
    
    Good question.
    
    
    Lets see, first define "travel".  The usual definition is to move
    from A to B over a period of time C, with the rate of travel being
    
    	|A-B|
    	-----, 		or, in the form we are more familiar with 
    	 C                                                        
    
    	SPEED = MILES/HOURS
    
    
    Now, to travel in "time", you get
    
    	SPEED = HOURS/HOURS = 1, Ahhh! A *constant*!  No wonder there
    is a problem here!
    
    
    Now lets try Einstein's solution.  Different clocks!  Now travelling
    in time is a little easier, just you need to go rather fast!
    
    Finally, is it that easy to travel in space? Actually NO, its not.
    Consider the problem of going back to "where you were" a minute
    ago.  Where were you?  The earth has rotated, revolved, and generally
    moved around the galaxy a bit since then...
    
    
    I have suspicions that at least half the "time" paradoxes, such
    as "it is easy to move thru space but difficult to move through
    time" are built on our mode of thinking about time, rather than
    the fundamental physical equations.
    
    
    /Bevin
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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220.1Different time, different mindTAV02::NITSANNitsan Duvdevani, Digital IsraelTue Oct 07 1986 07:098
Who said you are not travelling in time?  Once in while you do, but when you
"jump" forward or backwards, you reach another time "spot", where (i.e., when)
your mind is already adjusted to the knowledge of getting there in the "normal"
way. Other words: You may travel in time, but you never know it, because it's
a different time then.

As a matter of fact, I just reached here from 2525, but I don't know it - how
could I? :-)
220.3Dr. Who I'm notDONNER::TIMPSONBlack Holes are for dividing by zeroWed Oct 08 1986 16:018
    How about:  Time is not tangable and is a state of consiousness.
    
    When you sleep time is irrelavent and means nothing to you.
    
    When you are occupied and become unaware of time passing time passes
    very fast or seems to.
    
    Steve
220.52 meters in 15 secondsTAV02::NITSANNitsan Duvdevani, Digital IsraelThu Oct 09 1986 12:197
re .2

> Is it meaningful to talk about time in terms other than of change
> in spatial relationships?

NO. It's the same like talking about distance when you don't have 2 points
in the universe with different contents.
220.6Why Do We Care?DONJON::DELUCOMon Oct 13 1986 19:492
    Why are we so preoccupied with time?  Could it be because our bodies
    age and we die.....otherwise, why would we care?
220.7{RE .4}VAXUUM::DYERThe Weird Turn ProTue Oct 14 1986 04:515
> I have a lot of those dreams where you're desperately trying to get
 > somewhere and it seems to take forever to do it.:-)

That's because your legs are tangled up in your bedsheets.
 <_Jym_>
220.8;^)HENRY8::BUSTAFri Oct 17 1986 17:236
    
    
    
    Time was invented so everything wouldn't happen at once;^)
    
    -unknown
220.9the language of timeSMURF::BREAUFri Jan 06 1989 17:0348
To think about time, I suggest you take time to think about the
words we use when thinking about time.  To start, I suggest you
read the incomparable first few paragraphs of the poem called
"Burnt Norton", which is the first part of T.S. Eliot's quartet
of poems called, "The Four Quartets."  It's a slim volume of 4
poems which you can get at the Book Corner for about $1.50.  It's
worth it, even if you only read the 1st paragraph in the 1st poem.
It goes something like this:

Time present and time past are both perhaps present in future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is present, all time is unredeemble.
What might have been remains a perpetual possibility only in
  a world of speculation.
What might have been and what has been point to one end which
  is always present.  Footfalls echo in the memory down the
  passage which we did not take, to the door we never opened.

oops, towards the door we never opened.  

... anyway, it goes like that.  Unsurprisingly, the "thought-
trends" of the literati seem to be ahead of the rest of us.  In
fact, Freud and Jung both paid a great debt to Herman Melville,
calling him "The Father".  In a similar way, Gary Zukav quotes
liberally from Eliot's Four Quartets in his book called, "The
Dancing Wu-Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics."  As most
of you know particle physicists today are speaking like religious
mystics.  It will be interesting to see whether the revelations
from the atom smashers will shatter our existing world-view, just
as Copernicus "De Revolutionibis" (a treatise in the arcane
language of physics, actually a refining of the meanings of words)
caused so much consternation among the religious establishment.
Like then too, the average person cannot actually understand 
(myself included) such a refined language as the mathematics
of quantum mechanics applied to particle physics.  So we have
poets.

- Jim
< Note 220.8 by HENRY8::BUSTA >
                                    -< ;^) >-

    
    
    
    Time was invented so everything wouldn't happen at once;^)
    
    -unknown

220.10Travelling through timeHSSWS1::GREGMalice AforethoughtSun Jan 08 1989 15:41106
    
    	   Perhaps a little mental imagery will help... here's how
    	I define time:
    
    	   A child is born, and in that child consciousess exists.
    	It experiences the universe, slowly at first, taking in
    	those things closest to it first; its family, the surroundings,
    	and time.  The child does not understand these things, it
    	merely experiences them.  It hears the voices of its parents,
    	sees their faces, drinks their food, and all as it travels
    	helplessly with the current of time.
    
    	   As it travels through time it accumulates a collection of
    	individual points of 'now' for itself.  Its memory is composed
    	of those points of 'now', and little else.  
    
    	   Still, it rides the current of time, aging, maturing, adding
    	to the collection of points of 'now'.  But as the brain develops,
    	it begins to create memories that are more than just points of 
    	'now'; it creates points of 'what will be' and 'wht should have
    	been'.  It creates, in effect, the future and the past.  The past
    	may be built on a common historical reference, but since it is
    	not related to actual points of 'now', it is little more than the
    	imaginings of a fertile mind... except that it is used to define
    	the image for the future as well.  
    
    	   When the mind conceives of the future it is also creating that
    	future.  Our actions in the 'now' are often controlled by our
    	vision of 'what will be'.  We study certain courses in school
    	in order to get specific jobs, thereby affecting our contribution
    	to society in such a way as to make our visions of the future
    	into realities of the 'now'.  In effect, we begin to steer our
    	way through the currents of time.
    
    	   Some people stall their vessels in time.  It flows ever on
    	under them, yet they do not move with it.  Others try to reverse
    	the flow, but manage only to move their vessels against the
    	current.  Still others push forward with the current, advancing
    	beyond it.  Thus, some people are said to be 'behind the times',
    	'retreating into the past', and 'ahead of their time', when in
    	fact each is still very much part of the 'now' (though in different
    	places).
    
    	   And through it all the current flows, affected only slightly
    	by the actions of those on the surface.  It moves on inexorbly,
    	oblivious to the desires of those who ride the currents.
    
    	   Yet there comes a time when each boat must sink, and as it
    	does its riders become lost in the currents.  If it sinks slowly,
    	the riders gradually lose control of the boat, until it is
    	completely sunk.  Sometimes it hits a rock and sinks quickly,
    	with the rider in complete control until the last seconds.
    	In the end, however, all boats sink, and all life is lost.
    
    	   Time travel, in the clasical sense, implies building the 
    	unsinkable boat that can move freely along the currents.
    	Yet to do so does not guarantee that the riders will move
    	backwards or forwards to what was or will be.  Since the 
    	pilot decides which course to take, they effectively alter
    	the reality in the same way they did when plotting their
    	course with the current, and if they plot the wrong course 
    	they cannot help but end up in the wrong place.
    
    	   To give you a better idead of what I'm talking about,
    	let's assume that a time travel device is invented.  Let's
    	say it looks like a phone booth (a la Dr. Who).  Step inside
    	the box, give it a destination in time, and just appear there..
    	right?  
    
    	   But wait!  Where was the earth at that time in relation to
    	the sun?  Where was the sun in relation to the galaxy?  Where
    	was the galaxy in relation to the universe.  If time is your
    	only operational parameter, you will not reach your destination,
    	because everything is moving, and there is no such thing as 
    	absolute spatial references, since the universe is still
    	expanding.  And who's to say that the universe itself is
    	not moving in some larger macrocosm?  
    
    	   So, it may not be impossible to effectively navigate the
    	rivers of time.  After all, we all do it to some limited 
    	extent.  But when we talk about travelling freely to any
    	point along the river, we are talking about a much more
    	difficult challenge than just travelling along the one
    	dimension -- time.  Time is irrevocably linked with the
    	other dimensions as well, hence the need for the term
    	spacetime.
    
    	   Now, instead of a simple river composed of a stream of
    	points of 'now', we are given a broader set of dimensions.
    	Spacetime is more like an ocean.  There are still currents
    	that propel us forward, but there is now a much wider
    	scope of where forward is... it could be anywhere in the
    	ocean,  and the currents may shift.  What was once forward
    	may now be considered sideways or backwards, yet to us it
    	feels ever like forward.  Without some fixed points of
    	reference we are unable to discern our direction, but we know
    	it must be forward based on our experience on the river.
    
    	   I doubt that there are many among us who can fathom the
    	awsome depths and breadth of the ocaen... yet.  It may be 
    	that our boats are too flimsy to allow us to discobver 
    	enough of it to make an accurate map.  Perhaps some day 
    	such a map will exist.  Until then, we will continue our
    	travels unaided, and mostly on the surface.
    
    	- Greg