Conference hydra::dejavu

    
    < current stat of Atlantis literature a marvaleous reaffirmnation
    of Sturgeon's Law.....
    
    A belief is a belief is a belief!  I submit that Sturgeon's Law
    is only a belief, as is 'miricles happen to those who believe'.
    
    I'm continually amused at the universe and it's paradoxes. 
    Especially the way it presents apparent contradictory 
    yet verifiable data vs. imperical data to test our free will.
                                                         
    
    Lora
    

		<<POSTED FOR STEVE KALLIS, JR.>>

<sigh>  [anybody out there know how to un-hex a LAT?  I _can't_ write to
this or any other Notesfile since they installed the cursed thing!]

Many, many thanks for Topher for posting this and the previous

INK::KALLIS

Re .1:

Ah, we're nibbling around the edges of the metaphysical question of what 
reality is, aren't we? :-)

The point isn't Sturgeon's Law (which is observational, not Holy Writ); 
just that most of what has been written about Atlantis is twaddle.

A seeming digression (it isn't, really):

There were myths of King Arthur and the knights of the Round Table.  Some 
of these have become very complex and worthy of a lot of serious study 
for their poetic and symbolic content.

Most people dismissed Arthur as a myth.  However, fairly recently, it's 
been determined that there was a real King Arthur, and the information on 
him has been accepted by Debrett's Peerage, hardly a fly-by-(k)night 
[:-)] outfit.

However, the _real_ King Arthur has little resemblance to the literary 
figure that Mallory wrote about.  _That doesn't invalidate the merit of 
the stories_, but it does put them in proper perspective.

The same's true with Atlantis.  If you want to look at Atlantis 
mythopoetically (as say Knight does), that's one thing.  But if you want 
to believe in an actualized Atlantis a la Donnelley, Churchward, or the 
Theosophists, then you're eschewing fact for fantasy.  As someone said in 
the "Magic" note, the Mary Poppins School of Reality.

My concern here is that people who accept as fact that knowledge, etc., 
they are reading is ostensibly coming from writings of a superscientist 
or wizard who lived in ancient Atlantis is almost certainly being gulled.  
(Unless, of course, it's written in very early Minoan; and anybody with 
that level of documentation would probably get at least one Nobel.)

On the general idea of beliefs, as I "noted" several places elsewhere, 
one can always take the "faith healer" argument about reality or 
whatever: if you believe _hard enough_, it'll happen; if it doesn't, why, 
then, you just didn't believe hard enough.

The universe isn't really paradoxical; it's just that we don't understand 
it all that well yet.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

     
    .2
    
    It's interesting to note how you've set up a polarity between 
    fact and fiction when in fact they may be the same thing!
    
    With time, wisdom & understanding fiction has sometimes become fact and
    fact fiction.
                       
    < on the gerneral idea of beliefs....one can always take the "faith
    healer" argument.....
    
    One could if one was inclined to - on the other hand one could look
    at it from a broader perspective.  The self-fulfilling prophecy
    has been validated you know.
    
    Lora                                                 

    Re .3:
    
    >It's interesting to note how you've set up a polarity between
    >fact and fiction when in fact they may be the same thing!
    
    Definitionally, they can't be.  Either they're one or the other,
    though either may contain elements borrowed from bthe other.
    
    I cited in .2 King Arthur and Camelot.  The historic king was one
    thing; the poetic/literary king another.
    
    Homer composed _The Iliad_ as a celebration of the Trojen War. 
    Troy was condidered literary invention until the 19th Century, but
    then it was found be archeologists.  Does that mean that you buy
    _every element_ of Homer's epic?  Highly unlikely.
    
    Atlantis, as mentioned in the base note, is a particularly bad case
    since people are convinced that something that scholarship indicates
    very strongly didn't exist had been "real."
    
    As a _model_, it's okay to postulate-for-argument an Atlantis, but
    to believe that the type of Atlantis you read of in, say, Donnelley
    actually did exist will act as a bar for acquisition of knowledge
    of the historic world.  And that can be a shame.
    
    A philosopher once said that the jewel of truth has many facets,
    and to move away from one can mean you move closer to another. 
    But what he didn't say is that if you move away from one the geometric
    probabilities are much greater that you'll move away from all of
    them than that you'll approach a second.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

	<<POSTED FOR MYSELF, THIS TIME>>

Some random thoughts on Thera and Atlantis:

The modern Greek name for Thera is Thi'ra (the ' is over the i).  It is
frequently referred to by its Italian name Santorin or Santori'ni.  It's
most ancient known name is Calliste, which means "Most Beautiful".

Early theories credited Thera as being the major force in the destruction
of Minoan civilization.  This has been shown quite clearly to be false.
Minoan culture survived and flourished after the eruption.  It was left,
however, a little bit less able to recover from the next disaster.

Thera seems to have been only the first in a series of disasters which
collectively destroyed Minoan civilization.

The case for Thera being the inspiration of Plato's Atlantis is less
certain than Steve makes out.  There are some interesting parallels
between Thera and the description of Atlantis, but it's unlikely that
we'll *ever* have enough evidence (barring the invention of time travel)
to equate the two with any great assurance.

The biggest discrepancy, by the way, is that Atlantis was 10 times bigger
and "sunk" ten times as long before Plato's time as Thera.  Part of the
hypothesis is that this was the result of a mistranslation of number units
at some point.  Or Plato may have felt it made a better story that way.

...Because Plato's accounts of Atlantis (in Timaios and Kritias) are
clearly intended to be fictions with a message -- parables or fables if
you will.  He (or his mentor) simply chose to place them in an
"interesting" and remote location, just as a modern writer might chose
to place a story in Plato's Greece.

I strongly recommend L. Sprague de Camp's scholarly yet readable book,
"Lost Continents: The Atlantis Theme in History, Science, and Literature."
Even if you believe in the historical reality of Atlantis I think you will
find this interesting for the exoteric information it contains.  The book
was originally published in 1954, but de Camp updated it some for a Dover
Books edition in 1970.  Since Dover rarely lets things go out of print,
I suspect you can still get it from them, or even find it on the shelves
of a bookshop.

	    Topher

    There was an ancient trading city (Tartessos? I forget the name)
    somewhere on the coast of Spain that slowly sank into the mud and
    had to be abandoned.  Some folk have claimed this as the historical
    inspiration for Atlantis.
    
    Since Plato had the talents of a great fiction writer as well as
    those of a philosopher (he wrote plays in his youth, then burned
    them when he decided they were beneath the dignity of Philosophy),
    I would not put it past him to make up Atlantis out of whole cloth.
    Last I heard, there was NO known mention of Atlantis prior to Plato,
    nor of any culture much like Atlantis.  It's perfectly possible
    that Atlantis has as much to do with real ancient history as George
    Lucas's "Star Wars" has to do with real astronomy.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    
    re .4:
    
    Steve, thanks for bringing up "Illiad" and Homer's Troy in this
    context.  In the past few weeks I have devoted my Monday evenings
    to watching the very fine documentary "In Search Of The Trojan War"
    which has been broadcast in several parts on PBS stations.  It provides
    a fine example of what historians and archaeologists go through
    to reconcile historical fact with literary reference, and of how
    literary reference can be used as a guide to uncovering and
    understanding ancient history.  It was fascinating!  I suspect it
    will be rebroadcast, as it was lavishly expensive to produce, and
    was exceptionally well done.  There is also a companion pictorial/text
    which is available for about $20 at some bookstores and through
    your local PBS stations.
    
    Do you know if there have been similarly reputable documentaries
    based on literary references to Atlantis?
    
    Rita
    
    

    People that I have talked to recently have spoken of Atlantians corrupt
    use of their powers and it's affect on the demise of Atlantis.
    Supposedly there was a great deal of negative karma associated with
    this corruption.  Could someone elaborate on the corruption and/or
    the negative karma that it brought on?  I have heard that this is
    a time that alot of Atlantians are reincarnating and I am interested
    in what form this negative karma is taking. Please excuse any
    ignorance in the preceding statements.
    
    		Dave

    Re .7:
    
    Sorry for having taken so long before replying.  
    
    I think the deCamp book is the best place to look.  Topher's given
    it high marks; so do I.  
    
    Re .8:
    
    Depends upon what you mean by Atlanteans.  There are three basic
    schools of thought on the subject, per the previous replies:
      
    1) Such a place existed as an ancient land, complete with a high
    civilization and all that implies.
    
    2) The Atlantis story is a distortion of an actual historical
    event or events, distorted mightily by legend and storytelling across
    many generations (as per King Arthur).
    
    3) It was made up out of whole cloth.
    
    The "corruption of Atlanteans" story came from the Platonic dialogues,
    where the philosopher was telling a story that vaguely paralleled
    the story of the Tower of Babel (i.e., Man stepped over certain
    bounds and was struck down for it) and even more closely, Noah's
    Flood (Man was corrupt; the Great Flood killed all but a few of
    'em).
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I guess I'm looking for info from people who go along with your
    category 1).
    
    > 1) Such a place existed as an ancient land, complete with a high
    >    civilization and all that implies.
         
    		Thanks,
    
	    	  Dave

    Try "Edgar Cayce on Atlantis."  According to him, it experienced three
    partial sinkings.  The third one put it completely under.  The 
    refugees from the sinkings supposedly wound up in Egypt, the Basque 
    area of Spain, and Central and North America.  Another interesting 
    book is "Atlantis" by Otto Muck.  He takes an entirely different
    approach and barely mentions Cayce at all.

    wmb    

Dave,

My sense is that our sin was more one of arrogance than corruption.   We  pushed
at  nature  too hard ... and lost a world.  Perhaps that's why so many of us are
reincarnating in the here and now.  Maybe we've learned enough in 10,000+  years
to  prevent  a  repeat  of  that {foolishness.  If not, we've plenty of time and
plenty of universe ... 10,000 years is a tiny fraction of eternity.

Terry

    	Atlantis is a myth - an ideal society which Plato used to describe
    his idea of a utopian world.
      
    	If you read Plato, you will find that he used many allegories
    to explain his concepts.
    
    	In any event, where is the physical proof for Atlantis?  I have
    seen a few tabloid-type books out on the subject, with "sources"
    claiming to have seen relics on the bottom of the Atlantic, but
    of course they had no physical proof, only murky pictures at best.
    
    	Modern science was able to find the TITANIC, and that is just a
    speck of metal compared to how huge Atlantis was supposed to be;
    so how come nothing has been found?
    
    	I hope that several millenium from now, our literature is still
    recognized for what it is, and not misinterpreted as Plato's (and
    many other ancient writers) has been today.
    
    	Larry
    

    I've never seen anything physical from Atlantis either.  As far
    as the Titanic goes, modern science was trying to find it.  How
    many modern scientists are trying to find Atlantis?  Also, alot more
    sediment and growth would have built up on Atlantis in 10,000 years
    than on the Titanic since it sunk, making it (Atlantis) harder to
    find anyway.
    
    		Dave

    Re .14:
    
    If there were a reasonably large "continent" in the Atlantic, there
    probably would have been significant traces of it by this time --
    probably at the close of the 19th Century when people were trying
    to lay the Atlantic Cable.  And, indeed, there have been a few
    scientific expeditions looking for traces of such a place.
    
    More importantly, if "Atlantis" sunk, it still would be in fairly
    shallow water -- the same waters that some of the Costeau expeditions
    have visited and explored, while studying ocean-floor life.
    
    In short, the _physical_ reality of a mid-Atlantic "continent" seems
    extremely doubtful.
    
    On the other hand:
    
    There is the viewpoint that _individual consciousness_ at its highest
    levels is a relatively recent development; before that, there was
    something more on the order of a group mind.  Some occultists suggest
    that this group-mind phenomenon (which is vestiegally[?] the
    "collective subconscious" or "racial memory) pervaded the people
    living then; these were "the Atlanteans."  As _individual higher
    consciousness_ developed, through the early equivalent of chieftans
    (also explained as something forced on the early hominids by these
    same occultists) or other leaders, the group-mind effect was
    "submerged"; i.e., "sank."  This is one possible basis of the psychic
    version of the Atlantis legend.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    re: .8
    
    I am currently reading a book called RAMTHA.  Ramtha is the spirit
    who communicates through trance medium J.T.Knight - she is mentioned
    in Shirley MacLaine's book "Dancing in the Light".
    
    This is going to run a bit long, for I want to quote right from
    the book.
    
    "I am here to remind you of a heritage which most of you forgot,
    long, long ago.  I have come to give you a loftier perspective from
    which you may reason and understand that you are, indeed, divine
    and immortal entities who have always been loved and supported by
    the essence called God.... I have brought with me the winds of change
    upon your plane.  I and those who stand with me are preparing mankind
    for a grand event that has already been set in motion.  We are going
    to unite all the people of this plane by allowing man to witness
    something great and brilliant, which will cause him to open up and
    allow knowledge and love to flow forth.
    
    Why is this being done?  Because you are loved - greater than you
    have ever considered love to be.  And because it is time for man
    to live a grander understanding than that which has plagued him
    into dark ages, taken away his freedom, divided peoples, and caused
    hatred between lovers and war amongst nations.  It is time for that
    to be finished.  It is time for man to realize his divinity and
    immortality of being, and cease groveling for survival upon this
    plane.
    
    I was born in ignorance in your understanding of time 35,000 years
    ago.  I was born in ignorance and desperation to an unfortunate
    people, pilgrims from the land called Lemuria living in the slums
    of Onai, the greatest port city of Atlatia ('the land you call
    Atlantis') in its Southern sphere..... Because of the Atlatians
    great involvement with technology, they worshiped the intellect.
    Thus intellectual science became the religion of the Atlatians.
    
    The Lemurians were quite different from the Atlatians.  Their
    social system was built upon communication through thought.  They
    had not the advancement of technology, only a great spiritual 
    understanding, for my forefathers were grand in their knowingness
    of unseen values.... They loved an essence that could not be 
    identified.  It was a power they called the Unknown God.  Because
    the Lemurians worshiped only this God, the Atlatians despised them,
    for they despised anything that was not "progressive"....During
    the hundred years before all of Atlatia was submerged, the
    southernmost region was a primitive Atlatia that had degenerated
    into the rule of tyrants... the Lemurians were considered the dung
    of the earth, less than a dog in the street.
    
    Contemplate for a moment being spat upon, urinated upon, and allowed
    to wash it away only with your tears.  Contemplate knowing that
    the dogs in the streets have greater nourishment than you, who hunger
    for anything to kill the agony in your belly... it was common to
    see brutalization of children and the beating and raping of women."
    
    He goes on to say that he saw his mother dragged away, only to come
    back to the streets pregnant.  He saw his mother die as she nursed
    her baby daughter, and then witnessed the death of his baby sister.
    What he was telling this background for was to explain his growing
    hatred for the Unknown God, and then his journey back to Him/Her.
    
    It sounds like the "Atlatians" weren't the greatest, and certainly
    humanity hasn't learned a whole lot in all this time.  We're still
    doing this to one another!  Maybe that's why those who supposedly
    lived in Atlatia are reincarnating now ... to assist in the changes
    that Ramtha speaks of, and to take this opportunity to heal their
    souls, and ours.
    
    Carole
          

    If anyone has any past life memories of Atlantis (Atlatia), would
    you enter them here if you feel comfortable doing it.  I would if I had
    any (at least I think I would), but I have trouble remembering what I
    did last week.  :-)
    
    		Dave

    	I guess my patterns of thinking are just too scientific, but
    I cannot believe there was ever any REAL Atlantis, except in the
    imaginative mind of Plato. 
    
    	I knew a Classics professor in college, who said they found
    a manuscript of Plato written originally in his time - many manuscripts
    of ancient writers come from Medieval monks' copies - and they
    discovered it (Plato's REPUBLIC) did not match the "modern" copy.
    In other words, the monks (or whomever) changed the meanings of
    Plato down through the centuries, no doubt to conform to Christian
    beliefs, and to "explain" to themselves concepts they could not
    understand; and scholars are afraid this has happened to many ancient
    works of literature.
    	The Medieval writers also, no doubt, took Plato literally, and
    therefore began the myth of Atlantis, of which some have unknowingly
    believed, and others purposely used to deceive others (as in to
    buy their "true" books on the topic).
    
    	I'm not arguing whether reincarnation exists or not - I'm arguing
    whether or not you can get a soul from a non-existant person of
    a non-existant culture on a non-existant continent (Steve Kallis
    was particularly correct when he said that Atlantis would be in
    shallow water if it had sunk, and been easy to find today).
                        
    	Larry
    

    I am inclined to believe that Atlantis reflects an ancient, real event,
    but one which is distorted if recounted in our current context without
    adjusting for the difference in perspective between ourselves and that
    of the contemporaries of Atlantis. 

    We know that the Mediterranean basin and surroundings has been the
    scene of violent natural disasters, such as the volcanic eruption that
    buried the people of Pompeii in burning, choking ash.  And we know that
    sophisticated races of seafaring traders were setting out from the
    Middle East and northern Africa -- the Minoans, the Phoencians and even
    earlier groups, bearing the lore of Egypt and other civilizations. 

    Imagine yourself a stone-age peasant living on the warm shores of the
    Mediterranean, or even in the British Isles. One day, the great ship of
    brilliant purple-and-gold sails is late.  You know it is late, for you
    have tied a knot in a leather thong every day since the last ship. 

    They were magic ships.  They were steered by wizards, who gazed at the
    stars and consulted marks on lambskin.  The ships brought subtle
    strangers, whose sharp eyes saw everything, who asked questions about
    things *everybody* knew, but talked freely of things *nobody* knew, and
    maybe even things man was not meant to know! 

    Sometimes they said impious things, or chuckled at your folk ways. But
    nobody could turn them away -- they had too much to offer -- rare
    medicines, bronze tools, marvelous glazed pottery, bewitching silks,
    every type of cunning craftwork.   And the incredible secret of
    creating wealth -- mysterious indeed, in a time when most people
    figured the way to acquire things was to steal them from the neighbors. 

    Whenever the strangers came, a few of the warriors would give
    contemptous or even speculative looks -- but the clan elders would
    brook no interference with them.  If they could master the ocean,
    harness the spirits of the wind, speak with the stars -- why, it would
    be madness to anger these wizards!

    Yet one day, all the amazing strangers disappeared.  In a hundred
    little ports, the fishermen, the miners and farmers and tanners look
    out to the ocean, but no ships come.  Maybe a handful recall the day
    the warm sea roiled and thrashed, and the moon came up blood-red and
    ominous on the far horizon. 

    Maybe, a few months later, a band of nomadic tribesmen find a half-dead
    survivor who babbles deliriously of a city -- a city crushed in a
    single blow -- the wrath of gods.  And the bards sing the tale,
    suitably embellished, over thousands of years.  By the time of
    Plato it may have dwindled to an obscure fragment.

    	I think Atlantis is a myth.  But myths are "collective dreams"
    that give us guidence and faith in our continuance upon the planet.
    The Lemuria/Atlantis dicotomy could really tell us something about
    our present world; but only if we listen.
    
      Mikie?

    	Objective?  How can anyone be more "objective" than trying to
    find out whether Atlantis exists or not than by science?
    
    	What is needed for proof is either physical evidence or verifiable
    documentation.  Modern-day people claiming to have visions of living
    in Atlantis and Lemuria (which I find even more doubtful, as most
    Western peoples were unfamiliar with the Pacific Ocean in ancient
    times - note that I say WESTERN, where the Atlantis legend comes
    from) cannot be proven; they might be lying, or they may be
    misinterpreting dreams and/or mental visions as reality, or they
    may be misguided in their interpretations by others.
    
    	Larry
    

>    	Objective?  How can anyone be more "objective" than trying to
>    find out whether Atlantis exists or not than by science?
 
	Boy did you hit a nerve...
	
	Claiming something is objective because it is scientific is 
     like claiming something is just because it is Christian.

	Science, like religion, is based on faith, value systems ect.
     It is no more objective than any other set of beliefs. 

	See Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

	I didn't really believe that until I read a scientific 
    appraisal of astrology (which I consider Hogwash) and realised
    astrology is as valid as biology, geology and (of course :^) 
    phyics. 

    Re .23:
    
    "Science" isn't a monolithic Thing; it's a discipline to reach
    approximations of truth for the physical world.  Thast it has branches
    such as biology, chemistry, and physics is a demonstration that
    no one Great Truth is achieved by consulting an oracle labeled
    "Science."  Such an oracle doesn't exist.
    
    However, the scientrific method has _great_ merit.  It was through
    this methodology that, to use an overused example, men were carried
    to the moon: the cornerstone for every piece of engineering that
    went into the venture was that all elements were derived from
    scientific investigation.
    
    Now what of Atlantis?  Either it existed once, with physical reality,
    or it is either a parable or legend.  _If it existed_, its remains
    can be detected by using some form of scientific measure; it not,
    it can't.
    
    Sorry: today's _knowledge derived from scientific inverstigation_
    might be tomorrow's "religion"; however, the methodology isn't.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I see we could well go down a rathole here, so let me do a slight
    "reset" and try over...
    
    Forget "science."  What's important here is _technology_.  Logic
    tells us that either Atlantis existed or it didn't.  If it did,
    it would leave traces.
    
    Current _technology_ enables us to explore and map by various means
    regions of the ocean's surface we couldn't before.  The _Glomar
    Explorer_ was able to locate and retrieve [about half of] a Soviet
    submarine from the bottom of the Pacific.  _Glomar Explorer_ also
    detected metallic nodules on the sea bottom; these are approxmately
    fist-sized.
    
    Now Atlantis was supposed to be a small continent located between
    Europe and North America.  If anything as large as a small continent
    sank out of sight, it would probably be in very shallow water and
    _some_ trace of it would exist [treasure-seekers have found sunken
    galleons; the _monitor_ was found in the mud of the Potomac, and
    here we're talkiong about a whole continent].  Current _technology_,
    not "science" ought to be able to locate some of that.
    
    I hope this staves off the philosophical digression here.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    	And you seemed to have missed my comment in 154.18.
    
    	I was NOT arguing against reincarnation - I was arguing against
    whether you could have lived a past life in a place that does not
    really exist in the physical sense; and yes, they will have to show
    me verifiable physical evidence for me to believe that Atlantis
    (and Lemuria) existed as a civilization and continent.
    
    	I was being objective about your right to discuss reincarnation.
    
    	Larry
    
    
    	

    Hope there is room for one more in this discussion.  I believe in 
    Atlantis because I want to believe in Atlantis.  Like St Anselm,
    "I believe so that I may understand."  Not having to worry about 
    whether it existed or not leaves me more time to puzzle over some of 
    the other interesting aspects.  For example, Atlantis has been "found" 
    several times in several different places, this includes the Atlantic, 
    the Mediterranean, and the Pacific.  Then there is the fact that no 
    one has produced a piece of it.  (Can you imagine what a piece of 
    Atlantis would go for?)  Not to mention the idea that the native
    Americans might originally been native Atlanteans.  Hey, if I'm going
    to believe in something off the wall, why not something really with
    so many interesting facets as Atlantis.

    So why does it have to be in shallow water?  If it did exist, and it
    did sink, why couldn't it have sunk real deep?  Maybe the thing was
    resting on a massive karst region and an earthquake or whatever
    collapsed everything all the way down to the bottom like a big sinkhole
    in Florida.

    Mike    

    Re .28:
    
    "Believing because one wants to believe" is not unlike the scholar
    who _refused_ to look in Galileo's telescope because he indicated
    what he would see wouldn't tally with what he believed.  Nice idea
    but unusual approach to the exterior reality. [Many people believed
    the Earth was flat, too.]
    
    On your other question: a _continent-wide_ sinkhole structure surely
    would have left some indications.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    
    P.S.: The mythopoetic approach is certainly a good alternate, however.
    

    I also believe in Atlantis and I have no specific proof to support that
    belief.  I just have a very strong feeling about it and the feeling
    has become stronger recently (even in the midst of all the reasons
    listed here why it didn't exist).  Some of my feelings have been
    intensified by hearing other people's past life memories of Atlantis.
    My scientific side sees the logic of why there is no Atlantis but my
    intuitive side has been consistently overpowering it.  I'm going
    to continue to look until I'm satisfied that there is no more to
    be learned.  Also, I don't have any past life memories (that I
    know of) ....yet.
    
    		Dave

    Just because I have decided to believe in something doesn't mean I'm
    not open minded.  I don't mind examining evidence that indicates 
    Atlantis never existed.  Heck, there might be something to it.  In that
    case, I would change my mind and decide to believe something different.
    I think it is good to have beliefs, good to question those beliefs, and
    good to change them when they need it.  I have trouble believing six
    impossible things before breakfast so I try to do one or two in my
    spare time.
    
    You are beginning to sound like my geologist friend.  When I started
    talking about Atlantis, he started talking about plate tectonics,
    mid-atlantic lava flows, etc.  For every creative reason I came up with
    for Atlantis, he had some mundane reason why it wasn't there.  It was
    a very interesting conversation.
    
    I read a sf story once that took place in the future.  A fellow claimed
    that a large city once existed in America, was destroyed, and because
    of some sort of mass amnesia or denial of reality, nobody remembered 
    that it was ever there.  He was laughed at and ridiculed.  At the end 
    of the story you found out that the name of city was Chicago.

    Wouldn't it be interesting if something like this is what happened to
    Atlantis.  I read someplace that sometimes people who commit some kind
    of horrible crime manage to wipe any memory of it from their mind.  Not
    just individuals but groups.

    What if Atlantis did exist but we mostly just forgot about it.  The 
    last I heard, no one was really sure where Tarot cards came from or
    what country gypsies came from.  If history can lose track of a deck 
    of cards or a group of people, how about a continent?

    Mike Baker

    Re .30, .31:
    
    Nothing that isn't absolutely impossible is, of course, "possible,"
    though the statistical chance of its reality may be infinitesimal.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

{RE .15} - There's a book called (get this) _The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_
 _Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind_, by Julian Jaynes.  Its thesis is before con-
  sciousness came on the scene, humans operated from a bicameral mind:  auditory
   hallucinations from one part of the brain directed the rest of the brain,
    literally telling it what to do.

Part of the argument for this is that very old Western literature does not de-
 pict people as having consciousness or volition.  They went and did something
  because their god(s) told them to.  According to Jaynes, this appears to be
   the case in the Bible, up through Ezekiel.

This would be after Plato, though . . .
 <_Jym_>

RE: .34
    
    I agree completely (well almost completely).  The myth/legend of
    Atlantis is important in understanding ourselves.  Its "popularity"
    seems to indicate that it relates to many people in our culture
    (it may, of course, represent much more -- it may say something
    about our culture as a whole, or about the human mind in general
    -- but at the least, it says something about many individuals).
    
    I think, however, that it *is* important to understand whether Atlantis
    physically existed or not.  Those who say "it is psychologically
    important therefore it existed" effectively diminish their capability
    to understand the legend's import to themselves.  And I have seen
    not a trace of evidence for Atlantis which didn't boil down to this
    statement.  Much closer to the truth would be the statement "it
    is psychologically important therefore it *seems* to exist".  If
    you understand *this* statement than you understand a lot.
    
    Ultimately what is important is that "Atlantis exists within us".
    Attempts to project it without only diminish its power.  It is perhaps
    fortunate that Atlantis (almost certainly) never existed (I am of
    course not refering to any non-Atlantean seeds to the story) since
    this would make it much more difficult to distinguish the importance
    of the Atlantis (legend) within from the Atlantis (history) without.
    
    "As within so without" is a very important principle, but it should
    not be misapplied.  Atlantis within is a complex set of thoughts,
    principles and emotions which have been clothed in a set of symbols
    (story) about an ancient city in the Atlantic Ocean.  If you look for
    the *meaning* of Atlantis outside of you, you will find it.  If you
    look only for the city, you will have missed the point.
    
    			Topher

    Pardon me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that although
    Atlantis sank, there was a reason for it.  That reason being that
    they were playing around with some apparently "ultropotent" crystals,
    and that they lost control of the power within those crystals, which
    resulted in it's destruction.  For what it's worth, there's a side
    note earlier in this conference referring to crystals, and a comment
    made by Seth that these crystals still exist, but mankind is not
    ready to handle that kind of resonate power, so they remain
    undiscovered.  Apparently, when we are ready, we will find them.
    
    
    					Phil
    

    Re .36 (Phil):
    
    >Pardon me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that although
    >Atlantis sank, there was a reason for it.  That reason being that
    >they were playing around with some apparently "ultropotent" crystals,
    >and that they lost control of the power within those crystals, which
    >resulted in it's destruction. ...
     
    The problem with "reading somewhere" something of that order is
    that it becomes third-hand hearsay data.  The two _origin_ stories
    of Atlantis, the Platonic dialogues, don't even mention crystals.
    Unless there's some cross-checking of the source that can be pertty
    straightforward, then for _anything_ anybody reads, there may be
    a hard time separating wheat from chaff.   
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.

>    The problem with "reading somewhere" something of that order is
>    that it becomes third-hand hearsay data. 

I believe I once read something quite similar.  It was an E. Cayce book
dealing with Atlantis.  I cannot give the actual name of the book since
it was quite a number of years ago.  It should be easy to find (the book,
not the crystals :-) ).

-Joe

    Not having waded thru this one, my 2 cents recall the series
    The Making of a Continent which, I believe, lent little credence
    to the existance of Atlantis.
    
    							Don