Conference hydra::dejavu

	    Huh?  I was born in 1960.  A Libra even.  Am I part of
	this Libra generation?
			<_Jym_>

Astrologically, the term "generation" is often used in reference to sign changes
of  either  Neptune  or,  more  commonly,  Pluto.   I  was refering to Plutonian
generations.  As I recall, the Leo  generation  started  sometime  in  1943  and
continued  until sometime in 1956 (although some people born in 1957 are members
of the Leo generation ... Pluto went  retrograde  back  into  Leo).   The  Virgo
generation lasted only 13 years (1969).

When Pluto was discovered,  statistical  astrologers  concluded  (from  studying
historical  figures  and  trends) that much of its "influence" is upon people as
groups.  (This relates to Pluto's correlation with the subconscious.)

For example (and exaggerating negative traits is always the  easiest),  the  Leo
generation (mine) spent most of their "coming of age" years (the Sixties) trying
to tell everyone else how to run their lives and then grew  up  to  be  Yuppies.
The Virgoens are starting their careers now and exhibiting typical Virgo caution
and conservativism.  The kids, the Librans, will find a balance that their Virgo
older siblings, Leo parents, and Cancer grandparents could not. 

It's been predicted/speculated that when the Libra generation attains power (and
remember,  we  baby-boom  Leos are still pretty much in charge of world trends),
their sense of order and balance will be the influence  that  brings  about  the
global village. 

Terry

    Thank the gods... I can't wait....
    
    a 60's person who didn't become a yuppie and still tells people
    how to live.....cuz...as a libra on the cusp of scorpio...or
    vice verca....I KNOW what's best for EVERYONE.....!
    
    such a gift....
    

	    [RE .2]:  Bah.  As a Virgo/Libra cuspoid born in the Virgo
	generation, I'm not at all into "typical Virgo caution and con-
	servativism."
	    Also, the Punk movement was started by this Virgo genera-
	tion.
			<_Jym_>

    The Punk movement, I think, is more of an expression of Neptune
    in Scorpio.  Pluto and Neptune really should be studied together
    for their effects on generations.  Also, the way an individual's
    own chart is set up can have a profound effect on the way that person
    expresses the energies of the collective.  The observations in the
    base note are good starting points, but require more careful study
    for individual interpretations.
    
    Pluto has to do with the "inner power source" for people, and how
    they tend to express power.  It also has to do with the transformative
    energy in a person.  Neptune is about the spiritual urge, the longing
    to be one with all.  It represents ego-transcendent energy, and
    often ties in with what we idealize.
    
    These two planets have been in a sextile (60 degrees) aspect
    relationship for the past 40-odd years (don't have my ephemeris
    with me, so I can't look up exact dates--sorry).  So it seems that
    in generational (as well as personal) influences, the energies play
    off each other--the urge to penetrate to the core, and the urge
    to dissolve into the infinite.  Quite a pair, there.  While Pluto
    is trying to get to the root for the primal power source, Neptune
    is drifting out to the ether.  This can make for some confusing
    manifestations of an individual's "transpersonal" self.
    
    So looking back at the recent generations, you have the Leo/Libra
    group, the Virgo/Scorpio group, the Libra/Saggitarius group, and
    now the Scorpio/Capricorn group.  I am of the Leo/Libra group, and
    I recognize that in my own small way I have been obsessed (Pluto)
    with personal power (Leo), while at the same time yearning towards
    an almost mystical ideal (Neptune) in relationships (Libra).  (Remember
    Free Love?)  Sound conflicting?  At times, definitely.  It is always
    interesting to see how others have experienced the same energies
    when I read their charts.
    
    The Virgo/Scorpio group comprises many charts that I read today.
    Many of these individuals focus their power (Pluto) on Virgoan issues,
    which include health & hygiene (sp?), work, analytical thought,
    and service.  Even the punks are not exactly spontaneous goofs--their
    costumes are _calculated_ to shock and anger, and to express their
    own shock and anger.  At the same time many seem to have an almost
    mystical regard for Plutonian power (Neptune in Scorpio), penetration
    and transformation.  And so the punks virtually wear their guts
    outside to show the rest of us just how ugly everything is, and other
    people study how to become powerful, how to wield power, struggle
    to discover the sources of power, physical, mental, emotional,
    spiritual and sexual.  This is a very probing combination that has
    delved into and exposed things we wish were not true.  Remember
    how casually and even joyfully the 60's treated drugs?  How ugly 
    they were revealed to be in the years that followed.
    
    The Libra/Saggitarius group, whose charts I've not yet had the pleasure
    to study much yet, shifts the focus of power and ideals to relating
    and freedom.  It will be interesting to see what individuals report
    as time goes by.  But one thing that I still hear today is that
    _balance_ (Libra) of power (Pluto)_ is a key to successful functioning.
    And Neptune in Saggitarius carries some of the same connotations
    that Jupiter in Pisces does--an ideal of enlightened compassion.
    
    I offer this as food for thought and welcome your comments.
    
    Marcia

I find an astrological coupling between Neptune and Pluto of special
interest because of an interesting *astronomical* coupling.

Pluto has the most elliptical (least circular) orbit of all the planets
in the solar system.  It is so flattened that part of its path is
inside the orbit of Neptune -- the orbits cross.

This has lead to speculations that Pluto is an escaped moon of Neptune.
This is as I said *only* a speculation, there is no real evidence for
it.  But it would explain a number of things which are otherwise
unconnected.

And perhaps it says something astrological as well.

		Topher

    True, astrologers (at least the more scientifically minded of them)
    like to speculate on the meaning of the astronomy.  Pluto might
    be an escaped moon of Neptune; another theory I've heard advanced
    is that it's an escapee from Someplace Else--perhaps another galaxy
    we had a close brush with.  It is an interesting anomaly in an
    otherwise pretty coherent system (even if Uranus _does_ rotate on
    its side so that it looks like a ball rolling around the sun).
    
    Marcia

    re .6, .7:
    
    things get stranger yet.  Latest astronomical observations, plus
    the presence of Pluto's _very_ large moon, Charon, indicate that
    it's _not_ an escasped moon of Neptune.
    
    Neptune, itself, however, is strange, since its axis is tipped 97
    degrees from the plane of the ecliptic and its largest moons have
    highly elliptical orbits.
    
    Something strange seems to have happened at the outer reaches of
    our Solar System.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Almost seems like a brush with another system makes sense, doesn't
    it?  (I said galaxy before; I meant another system--blush).
    
    The other thing astrologers love to speculate about is the asteroid
    belt.  Was it or wasn't it once a planet?  And if it was, what sign
    did it rule?  I've not read up much on latest astronomical theories
    about the asteroid belt--anybody out there a fount of information?
    
    Marcia

    re .9:
    
    I'm not exactly an expert in this field, but I did once discover
    something interesting.  If we assume that there was a planet in
    the fifth position [not ballet :-)], and if you assume it to be
    between 4 and 5 lunar masses; and if it had some metastability that
    caused it to explode [yes, an awful lot of "if"s, but bear with
    me], and if the explosion drove two equally sized masses along a
    line tangent to the orbit of the fifth planet, one mass would have
    reached Neptune's orbit; the other, the orbit of the Earth.  If
    the mass near the earth had been equivalently stressed so that _it_
    exploded into two roughly equal masses, one would have reached solar
    escape velocity and the other would have taken up orbit around the
    earth.
    
    I worked all the math out for this many years ago for a friend who
    writes a monthly science column in a magazine that publishes both
    science fiction and fantasy.  He gave me credit in the magazine,
    but a slightly altered version appears in his collection of science
    essays, _Only a Trillion_. 
    
    Did it happen? (The asteroid belt would be that portion of the debris
    that "stayed behind"; this is somewhat more credible because of
    the "male" or "rogue" asteroids, which have highly elliptical orbits.)
    Possibly, but not probably.  However, it _is_ interesting that the
    orbital mechanics fit within one percent and that Neptune has a
    rather odd moon system, where its star members have strongly elliptical
    orbits.
    
    Steve Kasllis, Jr.
    .

RE: .8

    Yup.  That Pluto has a moon makes it *much* less likely that it itself
    was a moon of Neptune.  The dynamics of such things are such that a
    moon cannot have a moon for any length of time. 

    I haven't seen any calculations yet for the possibilities that Pluto
    acquired a moon (either by "fusion" or by "fission" so to speak) during
    the hypothetical event which "knocked" it out of Neptunian orbit.
    It's clear that this is unlikely, but I'm not sure *how* unlikely it
    is.

RE: .9

    I don't know whether I qualify as a "fount" but I think I can answer
    your question about the asteroid belt. 

    It now seems *very* much more likely that the asteroid belt is a planet
    which never formed, rather than a planet which came apart.  The "fifth
    planet" hypothesis fails to explain an awful lot of what is now known
    about the asteroids and the formation of the solar system, while the
    "unformed planet" hypothesis seems to explain more the more is learned. 

    The astrological connection is interesting, however.  It might be
    possible to check for an unexplained influence with the "right" period.
    At a wild guess, how about something like "unrealized potential".  I
    don't remember the period off hand, but if anyone is interested it
    would literally take me only a couple of minutes to look it up when I
    get home. 

RE: .10

    Very interesting idea. 

    I did some quick "back-of-the-envelope" checks on the first part (5th
    planet --> Earth orbit + Neptune orbit) of your scenario.  (Actually,
    in this case, the quotes are unnecessary, I really did them on the
    back of an envelope :-). 

    It works, but it is rather sensitive as to where in the present
    asteroid belt you put the original planet.  The necessary position is
    well within the belt but pretty far from the "center" of it.  This
    doesn't invalidate the results, of course, but people trying to figure
    out how outrageous a coincidence it is should be aware of this "extra"
    degree of freedom in the scenario. 

    There is also a real problem with the forces required.  They are, let
    us say, "astronomical" in size.  I can't think of any process which we
    know about which would come close to causing a body of 4 or 5 lunar
    masses to spontaneously split.  A massive collision might do it, but
    once we introduce an extra body with arbitrary momentum, we can get any
    results we want to out of it. 

    Of course, it goes without saying, (though I'm saying it) that there
    are many processes that we *don't* know about, or which *I* don't know
    about, or, even, that I just haven't thought of.  So, once again, this
    problem is not fatal.

		Topher

    re .11:
    
    The orbit of Charon is fairly circular, so it'd have to be fission,
    if anything; however, that would bring out all the old problems
    associated with the two Roche limits.  More likely that a "fission"
    moon would just have ended up as another planertary ring.
    
    Also, my calxculations were made on the basis of two complementary
    Hohmann transfer ellipses and something a bit more than 4.5 Moon
    masses.  The location was assumed to be at the fifth Bode-Titius
    position, and the delta-v difference was about 1% off nominal. 
    I'm
    dubious that it actually happened, but the mechanics are fascinating.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    Oh, pooh.  I really "liked" one result of a breakup of the
    fifth planet.  I had read somewhere (I've no idea where) that
    it had been definitely proved that that planet had broken up a
    measly five million years ago.  And that the orbital period of
    one set of rocks blown off by that was -- five million years.
    
    Look out below!
    
    							Ann B.

    It is an accepted idea that the midlife crisis years are part of
    the adult life, from perhaps age 35 - 45.  These years of
    re-evaluation, crisis and even starting over have a strong astrological
    correlation with a person's transits of Neptune and Pluto.  Bolstered
    by accompanying transits from Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus, it can
    feel like one of the most stressful times in a person's life _even
    if outside circumstances remain calm_.  Here is quick summary map
    of what goes on in those years astrologically.
    
    Pluto: orbital cycle = 248 years
    
    Obviously none of us live long enough to see a complete Pluto return.
    But we do live through Pluto squaring Pluto and some of us see our
    Pluto opposition.  One would think that the first Pluto square would
    occur at around 60-62, but this is not case for people born in the
    middle of this century.  Because of its extreme orbit, Pluto spends
    less time in the signs of the zodiac from Virgo to Saggitarius than
    in the signs on the other side of the zodiac.  It spends the least
    time, usually in its own sign, Scorpio.  Because of this, many of
    us experience our Pluto square anywhere from age 38 - 45.  I am
    of the Pluto-in-Leo generation, I am 35 now, and I will have my
    Pluto square before I'm 40.
    
    Pluto by transit asks one to die to the past in some way, to let
    go of outworn habits, attitudes and expressions to really come into
    our true power of our inner self.  The Pluto square brings this
    developmental need (which we all have) to a head.  If one resists
    the need to change and be reborn, the mundane effects may not be
    all that nice; spouses leave, jobs disappear, the joy feels gone
    from life, old values suddenly can feel worthless.  Even if nothing
    "goes wrong" in the physical events of your life, you can still
    feel as if everything is stirred up and unsettled.  The important
    thing to realize is that _this is natural_.  The people I know who
    have seemed to suffer the most trauma about the need for change
    are those who cry "But nothing is wrong!  What is the matter with
    me that I don't feel good anymore?"  You may feel bad from time
    to time, but don't feel guilty; what you're going through is as
    necessary as the turmoils of adolescence were.
    
    Neptune: orbital cycle = 165 years
    
    This is another planet we're not likely to live to see its return
    in our charts.  So the transiting square and opposition to its natal
    placement are important, as are Pluto's.  The square comes at about
    age 41-42.  If this is coinciding with your first Pluto square,
    it can feel very difficult.  Neptune by transit has to do with the
    expression of our spiritual urge and its expression, and asks us
    to elevate the mundane circumstances of life so that they are invested
    with some spiritual value, and make us feel at one with all.  But
    the first thing many people experience at the beginning of any Neptune
    transit is a sense of confusion; they know that something is lacking,
    but have no idea what it is, or how to go about figuring out what
    it and then _doing_ something about it.  So at the same time that
    one feels pieces of one's "old self" dying off (Pluto) one can have
    no idea of what will eventually take their place (Neptune).  To
    live in this state of uncertainty certainly requires tremendous
    courage and faith - in one's self, in God, in whatever.
    
    Considering these two things together, it seems wonderful that anyone
    gets through this period intact.  But one can readily spot the ones
    who have made it through to the other side and are fresh, exalted,
    reborn.  There are two things one learns from these transits, I
    think:  one, specific lessons about specific areas of life represented
    by the houses being transited in your own birth chart, and two,
    that you are strong enough to survive.  The vigor of my older friends
    who have learned that they can come through critical situations
    is impressive to see.  One can truly believe in one's self after
    that.
    
    Marcia