| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 129.1 | A Short Overview | INK::KALLIS | | Tue May 06 1986 14:37 | 43 |
| There are different opinions on who can perform magic. I lean towards
the theory of "the Talent"; that is, that there's something genetic
involved.
My reasoning: If evereyone could do magic, nearly everyone would.
It wouldn't have become as hidden and esoteric as it has been.
[Contrary but valid opinion: if magic doesn't work, then the reason
everybody's not doing it is because _nobody_ can.]
There are many different systems of magic: all involve symbol
manipulation in one form or another. Ask any three people who claim
to practice magic about what it is and you're likely to get four
or five opinions.
Those who consider themselves true magical practitioners generally
keerp a lot of the details to themselves (this is a tradition that
goes back to before First Dynasty Egypt), but there are some overviews
that one can mention:
"Low Magic" generally refers to using simple nature forces (e.g.,
candle magic or poppetry).
"High Magic" generally refers to so-called "ceremonial magic" where
a practitioner tries to force other beings (demons, etc.) into doing
his or her bidding.
"White magic" is that done unselfishly, for good ends (one creed
goes approximately, "With harm towards none and for the good of
all.").
"Black magic" is that done for evil ends and selfishly (a curse,
such as the coffin-nail curse or a "love:" charm that forces an
otherwise unwilling partner to bed).
Various forms of magic use different symbols to manipulate. For
instance, Qabbalistic magic is based on the Qabbalistic model of
the universe (the so-called Tree of Life), Nigromantic magic requires
pacts with devils, Enochian magic tries to manipulate angels, and
so on.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.2 | A Short Postscript | INK::KALLIS | | Tue May 06 1986 14:41 | 10 |
| One more point: in Western culture, those who proclaim most loudly
about being able to perform _real_ magic (as opposed to the Doug
Hennings of the world) are the ones most likely to be charlatans.
The tradition for not speaking of inner secrets is strong and predates
both the Inquisition and the various witch hysterias. But these
latter didn't help any.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.3 | Another Perspective | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Tue May 06 1986 18:18 | 54 |
| Re: .1 & .2
I'd like to provide a different orientation regarding the
breakdown of "low" and "high" magic. But first a brief
definition.
Magic definitely has two definitions. Magicians who do shows of
the doves-coming-out-of-hats ilk represent the nonspiritual end
of the spectrum (ie, they do it as a hobby or to make a living as
an entertainer). Those who practise magic as part of their
spirituality do so because magic is "the act of bending reality
in accordance with one's will." The etymology of the word witch
has its origin in the verb "to bend." Given this is the Dejavu
notesfile let's assume we're talking about magic as a spiritual
technique to work with the "energies" (I know that word doesn't
tell you anything) of the universe.
People who are being trained today to work within a magical
system often times do make the distinction between high and low
magic, but because of the Triumph of the Therapeutic in Western
culture, many make the distinction that low magic is the ability
to use the symbols of the system to change one's psychological
state (using a chant to pull yourself out of a depression would
be a typical use). High magic is more considered the ability to
actually call upon forces in the natural world to bend them
according to your will. An example of this is weather working
where the student of high magic is given an exercise to dissolve
some clouds overhead. (To deal with the anxiety that arises when
it's discovered he or she can actually have an affect on the
"real world" so to speak, exercises such as benign weather
working are given.)
I haven't actually resolved whether being able to work magically
is determined by genetics, but one thing I am sure of is that
most people are far, far more psychic than they think they are.
Belief in ability and working with a group that encourages the
use of magic for the good of all makes all the difference in
skill level.
One final thought here. In my staff meetings we have been trying
little ESP experiements, like being able to visualize an object
on a piece of paper with little success. When it was my turn, I
thought it would be fun to try bending stainless steel spoons.
In setting up, I made sure I told people they would be
successful. Everyone tried to bend the spoons using normal
strength and found it was not so easy (although it could be done
with a fair amount of effort). Using a visualization, followed
by a chant to make the spoons give at a certain point, certain
people were literally awe-struck with how easy it was to make
their spoon collapse. In a magical setting in which the work of
bending reality according to one's will is pursued intentionally
(although spoon-bending isn't usually the goal!) some very powerful
results are consistently achieved.
/chuck
|
| 129.4 | Magical Blend | GALACH::MORGAN | Protector of all good mice. | Thu May 08 1986 00:35 | 58 |
|
From the Spiral Dance by Starhawk:
"Do you believe in an invisible reality behind appearances?"
Dion Fortune
"White magic is poetry, black magic is anything that actually works."
Victor Anderson, High Priest
"Black is Beautiful!"
Aphorism of the black Power Movement
"It's our limitations that keep us sane."
Dr. Beth Simos
Starhawks's mother
Magic is the craft of Witchcraft, and few things are at once so
appealing, so frightening and so misunderstood. To work magic is to
weave the unseen forces into form; to soar beyond sight; to explore the
uncharted dream realm of the hidden reality; to infuse life with color,
motion and strange scents that intoxicate; to leap beyond imagination
into tht space between worlds where fantasy becomes real; to be at once
an animal and god. Magic is the craft of the wise, exhilarating,
dangerous - the ultimate adventure.
The power of magic should not be underestimated. It works, often
in ways that are unexpected and dificult to control. But neither
should the power of magic be overestimated. It does not work simply or
effortlessly; it does not confer omnipotence. "The art of changing
consciousness at will" is a demanding one, requiring a long and
disciplined apprenticeships. Merely waving a wand, lighting a candle,
or crooning a rhymed incantation do nothing in and of themselves. But
when the force of a trained awareness is behind them, they are far more
than empty gestures.
Learning to work magic is a process of neurological repatterning,
of changing the way we use our brains. So, for that matter, is learning
to play the piano, both processes involve the developement of new
pathways for neurons to follow, both require practice and both take
time, and both, when mastered, can be emotional and spiritual channels
of great beauty. Magic requires first the development and then the
intergration of the right hemesphere, spatial, intuitive, holistic,
patterning awareness. It opens the gates between the unconscious and
the conscious mind, between the starlight and flashlight visions. In
doing so, it deeply influences an individual's growth, creativity and
personality.
The language of the old belief, the language of magic, is
expressed in symbols and images. Images bridge the gap between the
verbal and nonverbal modes of awareness; they allow the two sides of
the brain to communicate, arousing the emotions as well as the
intellect. Poetry, itself, is a form of magic, is imagic speech.
Spell and charms worked by Witchs are truly concrete poetry.
The Spiral Dance
(*)
|
| 129.5 | Other types of Magick | BISON::DENHAM | Springtime in the Rockies | Fri May 09 1986 00:52 | 32 |
| Definition of magic:
The art and science of causing change in conformity with the will.
- Crowley
This definition obviously includes some things not normally regarded
as magical, such as driving a car to get from point A to point B.
There is Wiccan magic as previously discussed, there is Enochian
magic which is practiced by Kabalists, there is the "magic" practiced
by Voodoo priests which isn't supernatural at all, but falls under
psychology.
I have briefly brought up Enochian magic before. It is the magic
practiced by Kabalists (which may be either Jewish or Christian)
conjuring up angels and demons, as well as studying the 10 sephroths
(aspects of God) and the 22 paths between them. A recommended reading
list:
The Tree of Life - Israel Regardie
A Garden of Pomegranates - Israel Regardie
The Magus - Frances Barrett (Difficult to find)
A reading list of useful though dangerous information:
Magic in Theory and Practice - Aleister Crowley
The Equinox - Aleister Crowley
The Necronomicon - H. P. Lovecraft
("fictional", but derived from several other sources)
Kathleen
|
| 129.6 | Hiowever | INK::KALLIS | | Fri May 09 1986 12:32 | 19 |
| Re .5:
_The Necronomicon_ as presented wasn't written by Lovecraft. His
_was_ fictional; someone else used his title for a book of collected
(and dangerous for those with the Talent) spells based upon
Assyro-Babylonian procedures.
It is to be approached with great caution.
Crowley's books contain some procedural items which if followed
unthinkingly could cause a practitioner problems (Crowley's detractors
claim that this was done deliberately because they consider the
man evil; his admirers say that this was done deliberately to make
practitioners aware of perils by having to think for themselves
[a sort of "exercise for the student]. Either way, there are
pitfalls).
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.7 | Explanations needed | WFOVX3::ESCARCIDA | | Mon May 12 1986 14:09 | 16 |
| Re .5 and .6
Would you please expand on the allusions to dangers and pitfalls
through the use of Enochian Magic and does that hold true for MAGIC
in general.
I have been giving the thought of studing Magic for some time but
I want to be sure before I get into it that it isn't something beyond
my ability to maintain some sense of control. To coin a hackneyed
phrase, I guess I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.
Any advice is welcomed.
Another question is how to start?
Addie
|
| 129.8 | Caution CANNOT Be Overemphasized | INK::KALLIS | | Mon May 12 1986 14:59 | 28 |
| re .7:
"Enochhian Magic" is actually the angel-based subset of the more
general discipline called "Ceremonial Magic."
It is very dangerous, particularly for an unapprenticed beginner.
If a person has the TYalent to attune him- or herself to the necessary
"planes" (actually, more energy states), and one takes proper
precautions (a circle with appropriate blocking symbols and a separate
area for a "manifestation," he or she with the proper instruments
shouuld be able to invoke a being who either can be compelled or
can be bargained with to perform acts the ceremonial magician desires.
The problem is that for the most part, trafficing with such enntities
can put you in psychic and/or physical danger. Souls can easily
be corrupted by such practices; the story of Faust may be a legend,
but the symbolic intent of the story is _very_ important.
If you have the inclination, I'd suggest against doing too much
unless you can find a good and totally trustworthy mentor. I cannot
empmhasize that too strongly.
There are opther forms of magic that would be less dangerous; A
good suggestion on this order is Scott Cunningham's _Earth Magic_,
available from Llewellyn.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.9 | Do it carefully | CFIG1::DENHAM | Springtime in the Rockies | Tue May 13 1986 00:37 | 20 |
| RE: .7
I agree with Steve, don't practice without a trustworthy mentor!
I also can't emphasize this enough. If you get in with "the wrong
crowd" on this level you could be in serious danger. There is an
apocryphal story about a man and his sister who attempted to invoke
a particular demon. Their attempts to summon the demon appeared
not to work. Finally, they gave up, walked out of the circle and
were immediately crushed to death.
If you are just interested in learning more about it to broaden
your scope of knowledge without actually practicing it, I'd recommend
reading the books I've recommended and what Steve has recommended,
as well as several books by A. E. Waite.
FWIW, I find Enochian magick to be a bit too complicated for what
it can accomplish. There are a number of easier, safer, and better
ways to produce most of the results.
Kathleen
|
| 129.10 | Some Additional Warnings...and Some Suggestions | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Tue May 13 1986 17:05 | 85 |
| Re: .7
In general, one of the tendencies people have who are attracted
to the idea of working with magic is that it holds the attraction
of gaining personal power. Many people involved in the
occult are doing it because of a need to have more control in
their lives, which is a good sign to stop and examine your
motives. Do you feel out of control? Does "magic" feel like it
might be a way to regain control? If so, it's better to start
with exploring your life with a therapist than with the occult.
And these comments may not be appropriate to you, and I'm not
assuming they are. I'm sure others who read Dejavu have the same
question. But to add to Kathleen's story (reply .9) I personally
know of one person who tried to commit suicide about a year after
having begun working with magic, and another who opened up to a
part of herself that constellated itself in the form of a dragon
that would not go away--she had to drop it and enter into
therapy. A trained leader is critical to do work in magic
because of the inevitibility to project contents of the
unconscious onto the world. A trained leader knows how to throw
the person back onto him- or herself to complete the process of
self-examination that begins to open the door to higher levels of
magic.
However, the cautions listed here and in replies .8 & .9 still
don't answer your question about getting started. The first step
is to lay a solid foundation on which to base working magically.
This is something most people want to skip over, usually because
of the tendencies outlined in the first paragraph here. Here are
my brief suggestions to start, and beyond them I'd say it comes
down to finding a reputable group or perhaps even cassettes tapes
(I can recommend one set that closely parallels magical working
even though they don't explicitly use the word).
To start:
1. Self assessment. Write down all the traits you consider
yourself possessing. Then go to as many people as you can and
ask them to write down how they see you. Emphasize the
importance of honesty. Find out your strengths and weaknesses
and group according to areas you feel need work on or emphasis.
2. Purification. You need to become aware of your dependancy on
our diseased culture. How much energy do you put into pursuing
TV, drinking/drugs/coffee? Depending on the degree of your
addictions, consider brief fasts of fruit juices. What does it
feel like to have only fruit juices for one day, for example? In
general, to do any advanced magic a pure body is critical.
3. Connection with Nature. Do any of us spend any significant
time in nature, allowing ourselves to achieve rapport with the
trees, animals and waters around us? A cornerstone of magic is
awareness of the natural forces around us. Trees especially are
in natural balance and help to groud our energy. One of the most
powerful acts any one can do magically is to plant a garden!
4. "All My Relations." Practise always telling the truth. Where
do you fudge the truth? What are you protecting by doing so?
Follow through with commitments. This develops the will for
use when channeling energy. Are there things you haven't said to
people who care about you despite the fact they may drive you
crazy sometimes? Have you forgiven *everyone* in your life?
These four areas are the starting points for working magically.
Each area will have different agenda items for you as an
individual. Maybe in #2 you have a tendency to work too much
when there's emotional issues to tend to. Perhaps you're quick
to anger (in #4) with people you're close with (examining your
feed back from #1 may give you a clue).
All in all, the goal of magic is to manifest our highest potential
in balance with ourself and the world around us. Techniques can
become more "sophisticated" in more advanced magical workings,
but many times people who consider themselves advanced magicians
or witches are in an advanced state of self-deception as well (they're
filled with their self importance). Because there are no central
authorities in magical traditions, I think there is a greater
tendency for people to rationalize certain things (the list is
endless); but that is also its strength: You are the final
source of authority and no one can take that away from you (but
it's easy to give it away, because of what our culture has
inherited from our religious past).
Good luck.
/chuck
|
| 129.11 | Some Final Thoughts | INK::KALLIS | | Tue May 13 1986 20:59 | 33 |
| re .7, .10:
If you have the inclination and the Talent, I'd still suggest that
it's best to work with a mentor.
I would be a bit hesitant to work from audio tapes, since they make
it difficult for proper consultation and guidance; different people
probably need different areas of concentration.
The idea of developing a basic mental/physical discipline is, of
course, a good step, even for those who aren't inclined to try to
learn magic. Relaxation and breathing exercises, alone, are worth
a lot.
However, understand that anyone who has the potential and does decide
to "learn magic": there are _no_ shortcuts. It takes just as much
training and rigor to do that as to do anything other skill, be
it gymnastics to oil painting, singing, or anything else.
A parable:
A student of the esoteric in the Orient decided to impress his master
by learning how to walk on water. After years of study, he was
able to perform the deed. So, when he knew his master would be
by the riverbank, he strode across the river and stood before his
teacher, saying, "See what I have learned."
The master sighed, and said, "You have spent yeasrs learning to
do something that could be done for you better and with less effort
for a modest fee by a ferryboat."
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.12 | Look Within for the Answer | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Tue May 13 1986 21:48 | 51 |
| Re: .11
>However, understand that anyone who has the potential and does decide
>to "learn magic": there are _no_ shortcuts. It takes just as much
>training and rigor to do that as to do anything other skill, be
>it gymnastics to oil painting, singing, or anything else.
Steve:
This paragraph makes me wonder what you mean by "magic." I agree
that it is a skill, but in both this reply and an earlier one it
seems you have an all or nothing attitude toward developing
magical power.
The reason why I suggested what I did in .10 was to emphasize the
gradations of magic, that it's not something foreign to our
beings, and that taking the first step can be as simple as
speaking the truth, examining your attitudes and (as you
mentioned) relaxation and breathing development.
I do agree about the efficacy of having a good mentor, but do
you really know of any you can recommend? One of the questions I
get asked a lot is "How do I start on the magical path when
there's no group or leader around?" Well, the answer is, start
one! Be one! Hey, that may be the blind leading the blind
somewhat, but isn't that how it all started in the first place?
I feel we've lost a basic trust in who we are as creators of
meaning in the universe. We tell people to go to a certain
person because he's got the answer or read the Bible 'cause
it's God's word. And there's a million attitudes of varying
shades that all tell us to go outside of ourselves to get the
answer.
______________
As I read back over what I just said, I'm already arguing with
myself! I look back 12 years ago when I took my first meditation
course with the venerable TM folks and realize how naive the guy
was who was teaching me, only I was even more naive! Over the
years I've "discarded" a lot of teachers because I knew I had
mastered what they had to offer (or that what they had to teach
just was not my path). Each time I was forced back on myself as
the final arbitrator. And became more and more my own mentor,
trusting in my own awareness to guide me. And sometimes you just
have to find out for yourself if what others are saying is really
true or not. My experience has taught me that although people
are well intentioned, often times what's agreed upon wisdom or
written in someone's holy book is just not the right truth for
you.
"Do as you will, and harm no one." What more advice can one give
on magic than that?
/chuck
|
| 129.13 | The Discipline of Patience Is Also Important | INK::KALLIS | | Wed May 14 1986 12:24 | 33 |
| re .12:
What I said about there being no shortcuts was meant to convey,
as apparently it didn't to you, that like any skill you don't become
fully proficient in a short time. When I first learned to read,
there is no way I could have adequately undertaken a work of great
literature. "See Sopt Run." was about the limits of my abilities
at that time. Likewise, those who wish to undertake the study of
magic seriously should not do so without understanding that to become
proficient in the more advanced aspects of it is just as rigorous
as learning any other skill. Of course there are gradations in
it, as in anything else. The problem is that the current culture
still has strong overtones of "instant gratification" in it.
Non-paranormal analogue: When I was in high school, I enrolled
in Driver's Education. I went to one class, and when I got home,
my father asked me a fairly technical (for me at the time) question
on rights of way. When I indicated that I didn't know the answer,
he said, "Why not? You're in _Driver's Education_!" Similarly,
my concern is that someone who's trying to "get started" might think
there's some sort of [pardon, but the pun is unavoidable] magical
shortcut to proficiency at the higher levels.
With regards to mentors: among organized groups such as Wiccans,
it's easier (if one chooses that path). I am reluctant to suggest
tapes, though books -- where one can go back and retrace styeps
or cross-reference sometghing that seems obscure -- would be better.
My points have been "proceed with caution" and "don't expect everything
immediately." The latter is the stuff of fairy tales and fantasies.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.14 | | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Wed May 14 1986 13:57 | 14 |
| Re: .13
I agree with your points, especially in light of the the instant
gratification culture we live in, as you pointed out. But, the
point I was trying to make is to say that "doing magic" doesn't
mean that unless the seeker is going to _start_ with a qualified
guide he (in this case) should give up altogether. Not only do
we live in a culture of "gimme enlightenment now--just put it on
my MasterCard"...we also live in a culture that keeps us from
trusting our own experience by telling us to go find someone who
"knows." Well, there's a certain validity to that advice, but
the wisest masters have a common theme throughout their
teachings: The Truth is Within You.
/chuck
|
| 129.15 | Thank you | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Wed May 14 1986 17:25 | 5 |
| This has been a *wonderful* note. I've learned a lot, not only
about magic, but about some valid psychological and spiritual things
as well. I appreciate the info very much.
Marcia
|
| 129.16 | Some Books for Looking into Magic | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Wed May 14 1986 21:18 | 12 |
| If you're interested in studying a more Pagan approach to Magic,
then I recommend the following books:
Marion Weinstein: "Positive Magic" Pocket Books
StarHawk: "Spiral Dance" Harper & Row
and for some of the history of groups and individuals who have
started their own magical circles, there is
Margo Adler: "Drawing Down the Moon" Beacon Press
Most large bookstores with an occult section carry these, and
virtually any occult bookstore will have them.
/chuck
|
| 129.17 | Changed my mind | WFOVX3::ESCARCIDA | | Fri May 16 1986 21:33 | 7 |
| Looking back over my original thought of studying magic and the
subsequent replies and cautions, I have decided Enochian Magic
is not for me.
Thanks for the good advice and information.....By the way, I will
read those books.
Addie
|
| 129.18 | I'm Flabbergasted! | HYSTER::HITCHCOCK | Chuck Hitchcock | Mon May 19 1986 14:42 | 7 |
| Re: .17
What?? You don't want to study ENOCHIAN Magic??? I've never
even *heard* of anyone who DIDN'T want to study Enochian Magic!
(Really, not a one!)
:^)
|
| 129.19 | I like to study; but I don't practice | CFIG1::DENHAM | Springtime in the Rockies | Tue May 20 1986 02:52 | 8 |
| RE: .18
Study or practice? I find it fascinating to study, but though I've
practiced it a bit, I find it too rigid for my tastes at this time.
I find that there are far easier ways to get the same results (unless
you're set on conjuring up angels and demons).
Kathleen
|
| 129.20 | Not Genetics | GALACH::MORGAN | Protector of all good mice. | Sun Jun 08 1986 00:00 | 7 |
| Hi folks, I'm back from Bedford now.
Just wanted to add an idea. Genetics probably don't limit "magical"
ability. Belief systems do. If a person believes they can practice
it they can. Otherwise they won't.
(*)
|
| 129.21 | Not Belief Alone | PEN::KALLIS | | Tue Jun 17 1986 14:35 | 19 |
| re .20:
Can't agree. Any "magical" operation would be of benefit of either
the individual or the community. If belief in doing magic would
be all that would be needed, particularly in the earlier, more
credible, and more superstitious ages than ours, where life was
tougher for everybody, being able to do magic systematically would
be a great asset for individual and group survival. Thus, everybody
would want to do it and would, because they believed, be able to
do it.
Of course, you can use the "faith healer" argument: they don't
because they don't believe _hard enough_. That's inarguable, because
by saying the person didn't try hard enough you can "prove" anyone
can do anything ("Oops! Didn't make it? Well, if you'll just
try harder....").
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
| 129.23 | Work, Talent & Synthesis | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Wed Jun 18 1986 14:12 | 60 |
| And who says magic is _not_ work? Even though there may be a talent
involved, no talent in the world flourishes without training. People
who become adept have _worked_ to become adept. There seems to
be mistake in thinking here that I've seen applied to almost all
other areas of life; that if something is truly natural for a human
it requires almost no effort to actualise. Locomotion and movement
are natural to the human animal, but what parent does not recall
with affection the struggles of his/her baby to learn to walk?
I think it is silly to believe that magical phenomena would abound
without training. Training and conditioning has more of an effect
on one's life than perhaps most people realise. If a latent talent
is ignored, suppressed or conditioned out of existence it will never
manifest. And it is my experience that potentials that were not
trained in the childhood years are _extremely_ difficult to actualise
in the adult years. Case in point: I work for my living, as do
we all. I work well, I work hard, I learn best while working, I
find tremendous satisfaction in working. But every morning I struggle
to get out of bed. In my exhausted moments I dearly wish the fairy
tale was true. And what fairy tale is that? That I would grow
up to be supported. A man would come along (if I was worthy, pretty,
sexy, good enough) and take care of me. To this day I still feel
better about getting something as a gift than getting something
that I've earned with the sweat of my own brow. So should I conclude
that since I have to struggle to work in the world, a task for which
I was not trained, that this drive doesn't exist, and that all people
who claim that working is exhilarating, fulfilling and life-enhancing
are either lying, stupid, crazy or just very lucky? No. I work
patiently instead to recondition my psyche and treasure those flashes
(increasingly more frequent) when I glimpse fulfillment, exhilaration,
and elation.
The other piece of faulty reasoning I keep seeing is that somehow
technical, worldly expertise and knowledge is antithetical to passion
and belief. Or, that the "ordinary" universe and the "psychic"
universe are antithetical to each other. Chuck is right: passion
and belief are not enough. _Neither is the dried-up, "ordinary"
universe that the most hard-core "factualists" would like people
to believe in._
They need each other. Belief and passion are very necessary to
give meaning and the drive to exercise the discipline that more
mundane methods require. When they support each other, _that_ is when
what seems like true magic occurs. I can give you a mundane example.
When I used to teach dance, there were always those who didn't want
to drill, exercise, or practice, just wanted to wait for Terpsichore
(the muse of dance) to strike them in the head and they would magically
dance magnificently. But the best dances anyone ever did in my
classes, and the best I ever did myself, were _fusions_ of my artistic
sensibilities, my mind and my body. Everything working in toto.
(W)holistically. I hear the music take on certain mood and suddenly
envision how and what my next move should be to best express it;
my mind is scanning the stage, noting my placement and the audience
and plotting how best to bring it off; it is a difficult move, but
my body, conditioned by hours of practice and now the adrenaline
of performance, responds; my musically trained ear (years of training,
I might add) helps me time it; and it happens. I feel complete,
exalted. And what the audience sees (they tell me afterward) is
magical.
Marcia, aka Khalida
|
| 129.24 | A Thousand Pardons | GALACH::MORGAN | Walk in Balance... | Sun Jun 29 1986 22:55 | 33 |
| A thousand pardons! You misinterpet my view of reality creation.
I have never stated (as far as I can remember) that the wishing something
into existance alone and by itself would work. It generaly never
does. Sometimes, it almost gets there though..
When I say that we create our reality I use both the mundane and
occult meanings at the same time. By using subtle and physical forces
we can achieve our goals.
Here is an example. A person _wants_ to develope their phychic
abilities. While over at Walden Books (or wherever) they browse
the various titles that interest them. Suddenly the backside of
a book binder on another shelf catches their eye. What is this?
Well, sometimes it is the item they were really looking for but
were not really looking at. Or maybe it was what they needed but
in a different "package" than what they were prepared to find.
Another example is that a person may be deeply _interested_ in say...
wooden ducks. After a while that person will be find themselves
gradually coming into contact with other persons interested in wooden
ducks, until finally a vast collection of wooden ducks is "created"
out of contact with those other individuals.
At first the idea existed in the imagination. Through desire it
was created. Along the way various forms of "natural magic" (those
things we take for granted but are really magical) help us to achieve
our goal.
There is nothing truly difficult about learning the mechanics of
creating reality. We do it ever day and are mostly totaly oblivious
to what we are doing because it comes natural to us.
Mikie.
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| 129.25 | Pardon Accepted. However ... | INK::KALLIS | | Mon Jun 30 1986 15:07 | 35 |
| re .24:
Aleister Crowley, a powerful occultist whom different folk have
different opinions of defined a magical act as an act that makes
something conform to the operator's will. Soercery would apply;
so would driving a car or cooking a steak over a charcoal grill.
If "creating reality" is as widespread as Crowley's above definition
of magic, it is so widespread as to shed the definition of _either_
"reality" or "creation" (though not both).
One might make a case that those seeking to do magical acts are
for the most part those who _have_ a Talent, realize it instinctively,
and want to do it; if that's the case, the argument "everybody who
wants to do it can" (even if we add "for the most part") is
meaningless, since only those who could do it would want to. Actually,
I suspect that those who can, if any, are a subset of this subset,
but no matter.
To a certain extent, what's being talked about here is more psychology
than anything more esoteric [though there are those who might say
there's nothing _more_ esoteric than psychology :-)]. If a person
wants to do wooden ducks, to take Mikie's example, he or she will
consciously or unconsciously frequent those places and events where
wooden ducks are most likely to be a subject of discussions (hunting
expositions for decoys; Audobon meetings for sculptures, specialty
bookshops, etc); in a short time, one will find fellow enthusiasts
who in turn will introduce the seeker to more enthusiasts and to
greater depth of wooden-duck lore. That's not "creating a reality"
as much as it's "exploring an interest."
If everything's magic, nothing's magic.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
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| 129.26 | Crowley's definition of Magic | 15744::TILLSON | | Mon Jun 30 1986 17:11 | 68 |
| re .25:
Crowley's definition of a magical act has come up in this note several
times now. It is a particular favorite of mine, and I'd like to
try and shed some light on why it appeals to me.
First, it provides a bridge from the mundane to the occult. It
provides a way to look at a Magical act as a process, and allows
one to understand that the approach to performing a Magical act
is no different from the approach one would take to anything else.
Second, it gives us a way to clarify some of the terms that have
been tossed around and argued here already. To start things
rolling, I'll refer to them as Will, Belief, Practice, and Talent.
Let's look at Crowley's most commonly used example of driving a
car. To drive a car, a person must have the Will to do so; that
is, he must want to drive a car. If he doesn't want to drive a
car, he won't do so.
Second, he must Believe he can drive a car. If he does not believe
it is possible for him to drive a car, then again, he will not do
so. (Consider the fantasy case of someone transported from the
distant past, where even the concept of an automobile did not exist.
Not only would he believe himself incapable of driving one, he would
probably be strained to even believe the automobile existed. Was
it Isaac Asimov who said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology
is indistinguishable from magic"?)
Third, he must have Practice. No matter how much he wants to drive
a car, no matter how much he believes he can drive a car, he probably
won't be too sucessful until he has practiced some, driving around
parking lots, or maybe taking driver's training. Remember what
it was like the first time YOU drove a car?
Last, Talent is an important factor in how much the driver can
accomplish. Although anyone who is not handicapped in such a way
as to make driving impossible (such as being blind) can learn to
drive a car enough to drive to work or go out to the grovery store,
someone who does not posess a certain amount of inherent driving
talent is not going to become a race driver and win the Indy. Likewise
almost anyone can probably accomplish some magical acts, in some
degree. On the other hand, no one who does not have lots of inherent
magical ability is going to become a Master Magician, no matter
how hard he works or what he believes in.
If you substitute "performing a magical act" in the above example
for "driving" I think you'll find it to be a reasonable summary
of the topics previously debated. In this respect, Crowley's
definition of a Magical Act is quite useful in understanding the
steps one must take in learning to perform what we more traditionally
think of as "magic".
While we're on the subject, I have observed that Crowley's books
have been mentioned, in this note and in others, as being very useful
but dangerous to the novice. I would like to point out that Crowley
never intended his works to be used by those who were not already
heavily schooled in the occult, and in fact warns against it quite
strongly. In both the first volume of the Equinox, and in the
introductory chapter of Book IV: Magic In Theory And Practice,
he give an EXTENSIVE reading list that he suggests his students
cover before looking further at his work. If I manage to find the
time, I will type the list into a DEJAVU note, since it is an excellent
reading list for the student of the occult.
Rita
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| 129.27 | Hmm . . . | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Mon Jun 30 1986 17:25 | 11 |
| re: .24, .25, .26 et al
This is an interesting set of semantic arguments that I've been
following with great interest. Mention has been made of various
writers' definitions of magic. I'd like to know how some of DEJAVU's
practicing apprentice/journeyman thaumaturges would define magic.
How do _you_ distinguish the mundane from the magical? Any concrete
examples rather than analogies? Or am I asking for knowledge that
would only be permitted to circulate among those who Already Know?
Marcia
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| 129.29 | Several Items | INK::KALLIS | | Mon Jun 30 1986 19:54 | 32 |
| re .26:
It was Arthur C. Clarke who made the "advanced technology
indistinguishable from magic" quote.
re .27:
That's a good (and more detailed) discussion of Crowley's observation
and definition. I was specifically addressing tyhe "creating reality"
aspect in my previous reply.
You are indeed correct thsat Crowley is nopt for beginners. A recent
news item I read of a _totally_ "nonmagical" nature might put this
into perspective:
Someone who was a pilot of light aircraft bought a World War
II fighter. He e apparently took off in it and because of lack
of familiarity with it, crashed it and died, either on impact or
of the fire that resulted. This was written up in extensive details
in one of the flying publications.
The point of the story was that the victim _knew how to fly airplanes_.
He just wasn't proficient enough to tackle a Chance-Vaught F4U Corsair.
re .27:
Hmm... indeed. My suspicions, particularly after the recent
"Sexcetera" Notes"
flap, are that such items are better communicated privately. But
that's up top this Conference.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
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| 129.30 | Re: the last paragraph of .29 | NATASH::BUTCHART | | Tue Jul 01 1986 15:15 | 18 |
| Yes, an individual's necessity for privacy or the fear of public
censure did occur to me. After I thought about those two factors,
given the secrecy accorded most concrete magical knowledge, I guess
I didn't really expect any answers to my question. I respect those
needs from all our contributors. Let me also say this: that we
can argue in circles on the theoretical level forever. This is
true of any subject, not just magic. To the initiated, I suspect
these arguments have real meaning, and communicate a lot between the
participants, much as they do for other fields of interest, because
the two people share a common ground of knowledge. To interested
novices (and skeptics), there is no way for us to decide what is
really going on. So we still end up wondering what is true and
what is not and have no concrete frame of reference by which to
judge. Is there any way around this conundrum, any way to preserve
the dignity and privacy values of potential teachers while enlightening
the wistfully and honestly curious?
Marcia, WAHC
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| 129.31 | From My COOKIE File | VAXUUM::DYER | Wage Peace | Sun Jul 27 1986 16:14 | 7 |
| "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable
from a rigged demo."
.-----.
/ o o \
\ \___/ /
`-----'
<_Jym_>
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| 129.32 | Magic, in general. | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Fri Oct 16 1992 16:52 | 88 |
|
Here is a little information about Magic in general...
Magic is the employment of forces as yet not recognized
to produce visible results. In many cases, it is the
control of such forces by the human will.
The unrecognized forces of nature are no more good and
evil in themselves than are the recognized forces of
electricity, steam, or gunpowder. All of these things
may be employed for good or evil according to the mental
attitude of the man who employs them.
Every man possesses a certain amount of nerve-ether, and
also of a vital fluid which flows alont with this nerve-ether.
Both of these can be projected under the direction of the
human will. These two forces can be employed and have been
employed by magic.
Another great force which is used more frequently than any
other is that of the "elemental essence", which is a living
essence that surrounds us. This living essence is at the
disposal of anyone who learns how to use it. You may have
heard the term "elementals", this is nothing more than
temporary creations built up by the action of the human
will out of this living essence and the matter in which
it inheres.
These elementals have no evolution as an entity and no power
to reincarnate. The duration of these elementals will depend
upon the strength of the thought-force which is its ensouling
principle and holds it together. As soon as that force dies
away, its body of astral or mental matter will disintegrate,
and the essence and matter will return to the surrounding
atmosphere from which they were drawn.
These thought-forms, however, may be capable and forceful while
they last; and their employment by the will of the thinker is
one of the commonest and yet one of the most effective of the
acts of magic.
Nature-spirits is another class of entities frequently employed
in magic, this time we are dealing with real and evolving beings,
not merely temporary creations. There is a whole kingdom of vivid
life which does not belong to our human line of evolution, but
runs parallel with it, and utilizes this same world in which we
live. This evolution contains all grades of intelligences, from
entities at the level in that respect of our animal kingdom, to
others who equal or even greatly surpass the highest intellect
power of man. This evolution does not normally descend to the
lower part of the physical plane; its members, at any rate, never
take upon themselves physical bodies such as ours.
The majority of those with whom we have to deal possess only
astral bodies, though many types come down to the etheric part
of the physical plane and clothe themselves with its matter, thus
bringing themselves nearer to the limit of ordinary sight. There
are vast hosts of these beings, and an almost infinite number of
types and classes and tribes among them. These can be divided
into 2 great classes: Nature-spirits and angels.
In addition, the occult student has at his command stupendous
reserves of power of various sort not yet known to the scientific
world. One of them is "etheric pressure", there is an etheric
pressure just as there is an atmospheric pressure. There are
methods known to occult science by which ether can be pumped,
and so this tremendous etheric pressure can be reined in and
utilized. There are also mighty electric and magnetic currents
which can be tapped and brought down to the physical plane by
him who understands them; and an enormous amount of energy may
be liberated by the mere process of transferring matter from
one condition to another.
So that along different lines, there is much energy available
in nature for the man who knows how to use it; and all of it
is controllable by the developed human will. Another point
that must not be forgotten is that all around us stand those
whom we call "the dead" -those who have only recently put off
their physical bodies, and are still hovering close about us
in their astral vehicles. They also may be influenced
mesmerically or by persuasion, just as those still in the flesh
can be; and many cases arise in which we have to take account
of their action, and of the extent to which their control of
the astral forces can be brought into play.
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| 129.33 | questions ... | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Fri Oct 16 1992 17:13 | 12 |
| re: .32,
Where does your information come from ?
Some of those terms seem unique to me (nerve-ether, elemental
essence).
Also, I can never quite distinguish _etheric_ from _astral_ in
the Theosophical writings, can you explain it using
a commonplace analogy of some kind ?
kind regards,
todd
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| 129.34 | Expansion on terms... | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Fri Oct 16 1992 18:40 | 122 |
|
I see that you are familiar with Theosophy, most
of this information comes from Theosophical teachings.
First, let it be understood that the word "plane"
here is used to indicate a condition, a stage or
state, as opposed to a separate place because
all of these planes interpenetrate each other,
and occupy the same physical space.
Basically, there are seven planes, starting from
the most dense going up to the more subtler planes,
the physical, the astral, the mental, the spiritual,
which is divided into spirit and spiritual soul, above
that, the 6th. and 7th. planes will not be reached
by the people of this humanity in the present cycle.
All the bodies in the physical plane are first molded
from an etheric double, which is like a frame over
which the physical matter will attach to and will
be held together by it, so in that sense, the etheric
and the physical form part of the same plane.
The etheric double is formed of matter rarer or more
subtle than that which is perceptible to our 5 senses,
but still matter belonging to the physical plane. This
etheric double is the exact double or counterpart of the
dense physical body to which it belongs, and is separable
from it, although unable to go very far away from it.
An injury inflicted on the etheric double appears as a
lession on the physical body, this is known as repercussion.
The etheric double is the vehicle of the life-principle,
or vitality, in the physical body, and its partial withdrawal
must therefore diminish the energy with which this principle
plays on the denser molecules. The etheric double plays a
great part in spiritualistic phenomena.
We know that besides the system of veins and arteries,
we have a system of nerves running all through the body;
and just as arteries and veins have their circulation,
whose centre is the heart, so have the nerves their
circulation, whose centre is the brain. But it is a
circulation not of blood but of the life-fluid, and it
flows not so much along the nerves themselves but along
a sort of coating of ether that surrounds each nerve.
Normally, in the healthy man, two types of fluid are connected
with this system of nervous circulation. First, there is
the nerve aura, which flows regularly and steadily round
from the brain as a centre; and secondly, there is this
vital fluid, which is absorbed from without and carried
round by the nerve aura in the form of rose colored particles,
which are easily visible to clairvoyant sight.
Let us consider the nerve aura first. It has been observed
that upon the presence of this fluid depends the proper
working of the nerve -a fact which can be demonstrated by
various experiments. We know that it is possible by mesmeric
passes to make a person's arm insensible to pain; this is done
by driving back this nerve-aura, so that over that part of the
body the flow is no longer kept up, and consequently the nerve
is unable to report to the brain what touches it, as it usually
does.
Without the specialized ether which normally surrounds it,
the nerve is not able to communicate with the brain, and so
it is precisely as though the nerve were not there for the
time -or in other words, there is no feeling. The vital
fluid is also specialized, and in the healthy man it is
present in great abundance. It is poured upon us originally
from the sun, which is the source of life in this inner sense
as well as, by means of its light and heat in the outer world.
The atoms in the earth's atmosphere are more or less charged
with this force at all times, though it is in much greater
activity and abundance in brilliant sunshine; and it is only
by absorbing it that our physical bodies are able to live.
In itself, it is naturally invisible, like all other forces;
but we see its effects in the intense activity of the atoms
energized by it.
After it has been absorbed into the human body and thereby
specialized, these atoms take on the beautiful rose color
already described, and are carried in a constant stream over
and through the whole body along the nerves. The man in
perfect health has plenty of this fluid to spare, and it is
constantly radiating from his body in all directions, so that
he is in truth shedding strength and vitality on those around
him, even though quite unconsciously.
On the other hand, a man who from weakness or other causes
is unable to specialize for his own use a sufficient amount
of the world's life force, sometimes equally unconsciously
acts as a sponge, and absorbs the already specialized vitality
of any sensitive person with whom he comes in contact, to his
own temporary benefit, no doubt, but often to the serious
injury of his victim.
Probably most persons have experienced this in a minor degree,
and have found that there is some one among their acquaintainces
whose visits they always feel an unaccountable weakness and
languish.
The astral body is sometimes called the animal soul, or
desire-body, or emotional-body, and it includes the whole
body of appetites, passions, emotions, desires, sensations,
feelings such as hunger, thirst, sexual desire, hatred,
envy, jealousy, etc. The matter of the astral plane is
rarer, more subtle than that of the etheric. During deep
sleep, the astral body escapes from the physical body, but
remains near it, and the mind within it is almost as much
asleep as the body. It is, however, liable to be affected
by forces of the astral plane akin to its own constitution,
and it gives rise to dreams of a sensous kind.
Sometimes, people make no distinction between the etheric
and the astral and use them interchangeably because they
are both made up of subtler matter than that of the physical,
but there is a difference in the degree of subtleness between
the etheric and the astral.
|
| 129.35 | thx | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Fri Oct 16 1992 19:29 | 5 |
| re: .34,
Great, thank you very much.
todd
|
| 129.36 | A glimpse of the sun lasts me for weeks... | WR1FOR::BOYNTON_CA | | Mon Oct 19 1992 04:21 | 7 |
| Re: .34
This is beautiful, especially the part about the sun being the original
source of the energy that flows along the nerves, and is taken in from
the outside. The sun is IMHO connected to this energy.
Carter (heart chakra hat on)
|
| 129.37 | Chi circulation and nerve aura related at all ? | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Mon Oct 19 1992 13:17 | 21 |
| re: .34,
Sorry, this isn't specifically related to 'magic', but to this
nerve-aura concept.
In .34, vital energy is related directly to the nervous system.
Yet many traditions that map the passage of life energy precisely
through the body (the Chinese in particular) can be seen as
being largely independent from the nerves. For example, there are
studies which propose to chart distinct electrical resistance
changes correponding to the traditional Chinese acupuncture meridians
and points, but these don't neccessarily correspond to the
underlying primary nerves.
In your studies, do you find something other than *neural* proposed
as the explanation for the tracking of human life energy ? Or
would this phenomenon be seen as specific paths of certain
minor nerves preferred over others ?
kind regards,
todd
|
| 129.38 | Life Force/Nerves/Chi/Accupuncture | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Mon Oct 19 1992 17:27 | 60 |
|
Todd,
that's a very good observation. I don't pretend
to be an expert on these matters, I am just grateful to
have been able to find so many answers to so many questions
I have had for so long, and I am glad to abe able share with
with you all what I have been able to find . I am also trying
to absorb and understand so many of these concepts which I had
never known before, and so, in that respect, I am in the same
position as you are. I will try to explain the best I can
what I think you are asking.
It has been stated that the nervous center is
the vehicle though which flows the streams of vitality
which keeps the body alive, and which also serves as a
bridge to convey ondulations of thought and feelings
from the astral to the visible denser physical body.
Without this bridge, the ego could make no use of the
cells of the brain.
When the etheric double absorbs the vital force
from the Sun, an ultimate physical atom is charged with
this vitality, and it draws around itself 6 other atoms,
and makes itself into an etheric element. The original
force of vitality is then subdivided into 7, each of the
atoms carrying a separate charge.
The element thus made, is absorbed into the human
body thru the etheric part of the spleen. It is there split
up into its component parts, which at once flow to the
various parts of the body assigned to them. The spleen
is one of the 7 force-centers in the etheric part of the
physical body. In each of our vehicles, 7 such centers
should be in activity, and when they are thus active,
they are visible to clairvoyant sight.
They appear usually as shallow vortices, for they
are the points at which the forces from the higher bodies
enters the lower body. In the physical body, these centers
are: (1) at the base of the spine, (2) at the solar plexus,
(3) at the spleen, (4) over the heart, (5) at the throat,
(6) between the eyebrows, (7) at the top of the head. I'm
sure many of you will recognize these force-centers by
another familiar name, "chakras". There are other dormant
centers, but their awakening is undesirable.
After this vitality force reaches the physical body
it is distributed throughout the body, and there are many
major points which serve as relief valves, which are what
I believe, the practicioners of accupuncture call "meridians".
When blockages to the passage of the vital force take place,
these major relief valves are used to restore the flow of the
vital energy and thus restore physical health. I don't know
much about accupuncture, but I believe that is what takes place.
As you mentioned, the "meridians" don't necessarily correspond
to the underlying primary nerves.
I don't know if this is the answer you were looking for,
but I hope it has been of some help.
|
| 129.39 | Of serpents and silver needles | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Mon Oct 19 1992 18:33 | 15 |
| re: .38,
> I don't pretend to be an expert on these matters, ...
Understood. I hope I didn't seem to put you 'on the spot.'
Thanks for the further info on chakras and such. I guess I'm mainly
wondering about any proposed correlation someone may be aware of between
the traditional Chinese life force that circulates through the meridians,
and that which an be cultivated to rise through the Indian chakras.
I know the Kundalini concept has a depth of complexity that makes this
difficult to answer, though. I assume that most of the Theosophical life
force concepts are derived from the Indian tradition.
kind regards,
todd
|
| 129.40 | More on Magic... | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Tue Oct 20 1992 11:46 | 136 |
|
Magic can be divided into 2 great parts, according to the
methods which it employs, they are: Magic of Evocation (command),
and Magic of Invocation (entreaty).
The one great force at the back of all Magic of Evocation is
the human will. By this the vitality and the nerve-ether can
be directed; by this all the varieties of elemental essence
may be guided, selected and built into forms either simple of
complex according to the work that they have to do. By this
magnetic control may be gained over any of the classes of
nature-spirits; by this also the wills of others, whether
living or dead, may be dominated that they become practically
but tools in the hands of the magician.
Indeed, it is scarcely possible to fix the limits of the power
of the human will when properly directed; it is so much more
far-reaching than the ordinary man ever supposes, that the
results gained by its mean appear to him astounding and
supernatural. In order that this mighty engine of the will
may work effectively, the magician must possess perfect
confidence. This is gained in various ways, according to the
type to which the mind of the magician belongs.
First, there is a type of man who possesses such iron determination
and such confidence in himself and in his power to dominate
nature by the mere force of his spirit that he gains his end
solely by determined insistence upon it. He realizes that his
will is the true motive force, and he neither knows nor cares
through what intermediary agencies this will may work. He is
careless, and may even be ignorant, as to methods; but rides
down all opposition, as it were, by brute force, and does that
which he wishes simply through the tremendous strength of his
unalterable conviction that it can be done and shall be done.
SUCH MAGICIANS ARE FEW, BUT THEY EXIST, and if not benevolently
inclined they may be formidable. They do not need a method by
which to gain confidence, they appear to possess it in their
very nature.
The second type of man gains the necessary confidence to command
from his thorough knowledge of the subject with which he is
dealing and of the forces which he is employing. He may be
called the scientific magician, for he has made a close study
of astral and mental physics, he knows all about the different
types of elemental essence and the various classes of nature-
spirits, so that in every case he is able to use the most
appropriate means to obtain the result which he desires with
the least possible exertion or difficulty. Its thorough
familiarity with the subject makes him feel thoroughly at home
with it and capable of dealing with any emergencies which may
arise.
There are times when, and conditions under which, certain
efforts can more easily be made, so that what can be done only
with extreme difficulty (or perhaps even cannot be done at all)
at one time, may be managed with comparable ease at another.
This obviously implies the existence of influences, planetary
or otherwise, which are acting upon and within our world, and
the exhaustive knowledge of all these and of their combinations
is naturally necessary for the worker in practical magic.
Another type of magician attains the confidence necessary to
insure obedience to this commans by means of faith or devotion.
He has so firm a faith in his leader or deity, that he is certain
that any command pronounced in that name must be instantly obeyed.
We are not speaking of results which may be produced upon the
mental and astral planes, but also of definite and visible
physical effects. The cures at Lourdes in France and at Knock
in Ireland show that a great many ills, even of purely physical
type will yield before determined faith. Any man who has in this
way obtained sufficient confidence will find his will so much
strenghtened thereby that he will be able to produce the most
unexpected results.
It should be pointed out that it is his own will which brings
in the satisfactory result -not the intervention of the Greater
One whose name he speaks. Many earnest Christians attribute the
healing directly to Christ, in whose name it is performed; but
deeper study of the subject will show that the cures precisely
and similar and quite as astounding have been performed by
equally earnest men in the name of the Lord Buddha, or in the
name of Mithra, or of any other of the great leaders and teachers
of the world. IT IS THE TREMENDOUS FAITH THAT GIVES THE POWER;
IN WHAT OR IN WHOM IS THE FAITH MATTERS BUT LITTLE. The greater
person whose name is envoked may not even be aware of the
circumstance; although if he does know and does in any way interfere
we may be sure that it will rather be by the strenghtening of the
faith and will of his follower than by any special effort of his
own power.
Yet another class of magicians consist of those who believe in
the efficacy of certain ceremonies, or of certain formula. For
them and in their hands the formula or the ceremonies are
effective; but in most cases, it is not because of any inherent
virtue which the forms possess, but because of the confidence
of the magician that when he employs them the result must inevitably
ensue. If we read any account of the working of medieval alchemists,
we shall see that they had many such ceremonies, and that the
majority of them would have considered themselves incapable of
obtaining their results without the surroundings to which they
were accustomed. They wore robes of various types, they used
Kabalistic figures, they waved around their heads swords magnetized
for definite purposes; they burn their drugs or sprinkled their
essences.
It is true that some of these things have also a certain potency
of their own, but in the majority of cases all that they do is to
give confidence to the performer, and so to strenghten his will to
the requisite point. He has been told by his teachers or by
the scriptures that all these parapheprnalia are effective, and
that in using them he will certainly succeed. The man by himself
might possibly waver and feel frightened, but with the proper
robes and signs and weapons he feels so sure of success that he
goes straight through without hesitation.
A magician of any of these types has at his disposal the forces
of three levels -the mental, the astral, and the etheric-physical.
All of these can be directed by the human will, and in using any
of them a man necessarily sets in motion vibrations in the other
planes also. If he is dealing with a man of great intellectual
development and keen receptivity on the mental plane, it will
obviously be better to approach him on that level by means of
definite thought, or through the services of the nature-spirits
abiding there.
If, on the other hand, he is dealing with a man whose life is
intensely emotional, he will probably find it easier to impress
him along that line, and consequently he will send thought-forms
veiled in astral matter, or employ the services of the lower type
of nature-spirits whose bodies are built of the grossly material
type; for one who has dipped very deeply into the physical plane,
it seems reasonable to employ the forces and intelligences which
clothe themselves most readily in physical matter. But in all
these cases alike, THE MOVTIVE POWER AT THE BACK IS THE INDOMITABLE
WILL OF THE OPERATOR, through whatever channels he may find it best
to work.
|
| 129.41 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 20 1992 12:09 | 2 |
| Thanks for entering interesting notes.
|
| 129.42 | magic and yoga | TNPUBS::PAINTER | worlds beyond this | Tue Oct 20 1992 14:42 | 27 |
|
Re.40
Those descriptions of various magic practices correspond directly to
several types of yoga. They are:
Jnana Yoga - yoga of knowledge (intellect, in the highest sense)
Bhakti Yoga - yoga of devotion (love)
Karma Yoga - yoga of action (service)
Hatha Yoga - yoga of physical form
There are others, however these suffice for purposes of this
discussion.
The truly balanced yogi integrates all of these forms of yoga in daily
life.
For example, devotion without knowledge is blind. Knowledge without
devotion/love is empty. Service without love and knowledge is just
work. Doing hatha yoga with the physical form without being fully
conscious, as in 'being here now', is simply exercise.
Yoga is the union, or the integration, of mind, body and spirit. The
goal of yoga is to realize one's true identity, which is ultimately
what is referred to as God, or total consciousness.
Cindy
|
| 129.43 | my understanding | TNPUBS::PAINTER | worlds beyond this | Tue Oct 20 1992 14:49 | 19 |
|
Re.39
Todd,
It is all the same energy, or God. God=energy=love. Prana, ch'i,
orgone, Holy Spirit - it is all the same.
Speaking in India-n terms, prana is the basic unit which makes up the
kundalini-shakti energy (source: "Working Miracles Of Love", by Yogi
Amrit Desai). To briefly sum up the chapter...once a person starts to
spiritually evolve, then the prana takes the form which is referred to
as kundalini-shakti, and works toward assisting the person in their
evolution. Until such a time that the kundalini-shakti is awakened
(either spontaneously, as a result of past/other life spiritual
practices, or contact with a spiritual master or someone who has their
own kundalini awakened), it lies dormant.
Cindy
|
| 129.44 | From magic to yoga to aliens | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Tue Oct 20 1992 15:15 | 17 |
| re: .42,.43, Cindy (who burns sage, but doesn't inhale) ...
> Until such a time that the kundalini-shakti is awakened
> (either spontaneously, as a result of past/other life spiritual
> practices, or contact with a spiritual master or someone who has their
> own kundalini awakened), it lies dormant.
Something I thought was interesting was what I read from Kenneth
Ring that he thought that the alien abduction phenomena were
triggering the equivalent of Kundalini waking, as well as with
Near Death Experiences.
Is there any past history of anything resembling this alien abduction
thing in Yogic lore ? What other kinds of experiences do they
see triggering it, other than deliberate cultivation ?
todd
|
| 129.45 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 20 1992 15:25 | 2 |
| Who is Kenneth Ring, Todd? What has he written? Do you have an ISBN
number? :-)
|
| 129.46 | and back to burning things | TNPUBS::PAINTER | worlds beyond this | Tue Oct 20 1992 16:28 | 33 |
|
Re.44
Todd,
I haven't read any connection between them myself, and other than
cultivation, the only other way that Gurudev mentions in his book
(which is not at all esoteric) is by coming into contact with someone
who is more advanced than you. Interesting perspective though. I'll
keep a watch out for it.
I was out at Kripalu last week for Gurudev's 60th birthday, and he
actively gave out shaktipat. It was, as they say, a real trip.
Although many people were manifesting depending upon the blocks they
were processing through (shaking, breathing patterns changing, crying,
laughing), I did not, at least not in that way. However, given that
Gurudev had written that he didn't do that anymore, my conscious mind
got in the way by saying, "No, he can't be doing that.", and that
detracted from my experience...still stuck in the mind.
In the days following that, however, I went through a fairly significant
purification (fever, shaking, feeling like my body was going through
massive realignment, etc.) Then at the end of the week when Gurudev
summoned the presences of his guru, and his guru's guru...well, I can't
explain it except to say that it felt like an incredible intense energy
shower of love. I was literally engulfed in, and became part of, the
powerful flow of energy. Very blissful. Time went away, along with
the mind chatter, and it was amazing.
Signed,
Sageburner-Who-Doesn't-Inhale
|
| 129.47 | And where can I get some? :-) :-) | YNGSTR::STANLEY | You can't let go, you can't hold on... | Tue Oct 20 1992 17:53 | 5 |
| Hi Cindy,
What is shaktipat?
Dave
|
| 129.48 | 'Heading toward Omega ...' | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Tue Oct 20 1992 18:06 | 25 |
| > Who is Kenneth Ring, Todd? What has he written? Do you have an ISBN
> number? :-)
I'm sorry, this was a spill-over from the recent note string
about alien abductions, where I mentioned Ring's book,
The_Omega_Project. It is I think the most recent of his several
books on similar topics.
Dr. Ring is a psychologist who did a great deal of research into
the Near Death Experience, and then later, after great trepidation
according to his account in the book, also tried with some success
to correlate NDEs with alien abduction experiences in several ways.
He also correlated (less well, I think) aspects of both of these experiences
with Kundalini-rising experiences, as if, in his thesis, these things are
all different kinds of triggers for a general human spiritual
transformation. Interesting stuff, a psychologist arguing for
tangible 'psycho-spiritual' evolution using a combination of
physiological and psychological data. Ok, well, _I_ find it interesting,
anyway. :-)
If you still want the publication data, let me know and I'll dig it up,
I don't the book with me.
todd
|
| 129.49 | reply | TNPUBS::PAINTER | worlds beyond this | Tue Oct 20 1992 19:04 | 65 |
|
Re.47
Hi Dave,
Perhaps someone can explain it better than I can, however here's what I
understand...
Shakti is the feminine universal energy, and is directly related to
kundalini (commonly referred to as kundalini-shakti). It lies dormant
at the base of your spine until it is awakened by one of the ways
mentioned earlier. As it rises up through the etheric body to the 7th
chakra (which is the masculine energy, or in the case of Shakti, it is
Shiva). This is usually done with the help of a spiritual master. The
union of the Shakti and Shiva is the cosmic marriage that exists within
each of us as potential...unless you are a spiritual master, of course,
and then it is actual.
One interesting parallel in the Christian marriage ceremony is when the
bride is walked up the aisle by the father, to the groom who is waiting
at the altar, is that the bride is symbolic of Shakti, the groom of
Shiva, and the father as the spiritual teacher, guide, or master. The
spiritual master is with the student until they have also reached
realization within. Most of the religious stories are symbolic as well
as actual (in quite a few cases).
The Sahaja Yoga group has a slightly different interpretation of how
this works...perhaps they can present their view here as well.
There are many gurus who can give shakti to others. Gurudev at Kripalu
Center was initiated with the ability to pass this on to others.
Except for this last week though, he doesn't give it out directly. The
grounds at Kripalu are permeated with the high energy though, so even
by going there you can benefit. I have had minor experiences out there
while staying for even a few days...particularly during the Inner Quest
program.
A few months ago, there was a woman guru named Asha Ma in Boston who
offers shaktipat initiations. You may wish to see her if/when she
comes back. Being in her presence was like being in the presence of
the Divine Mother - she was so radiant.
What happens after a shakti initiation is that your body and your life
begins to undergo rapid transformation. Things begin to speed up as
your body begins to purify and release old blocks in the energy field.
These, in turn, allow the energy to flow more freely, and the process
continues.
What I feel is that anyone who is interested in, and can sense things
beyond the purely physical plane, is already undergoing this process.
Being around a source, such as a spiritual master, or even on the
grounds where a master has lived, can speed this up.
My own experience happened 5 1/2 years ago, just before joining this
file. A good friend, and whom I now know has been my 'guru' in other
lives, gave me a hug goodnight at that time, and there was a
transferral of shakti from him to me. I didn't feel it, but I did have
some of the manifestations later on that night.
Then my life began to change drastically, and, as you know (;^), hasn't
slowed down since then. Yet until going to Kripalu a few years ago, I
never knew what happened in that moment. With him though, it wasn't a
conscious process, so he can't help you out.
Cindy
|
| 129.50 | Thanks | YNGSTR::STANLEY | You can't let go, you can't hold on... | Tue Oct 20 1992 19:21 | 5 |
| re: <<< Note 129.49 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "worlds beyond this" >>>
Very interesting. Thanks for entering that, Cindy.
Dave
|
| 129.51 | yea.. that works... | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 20 1992 19:56 | 10 |
| .48
It makes sense though... it fits I mean...
Could you please get me the ISBN number, Todd? I'd really appreciate
it.
Thanks,
mary
|
| 129.52 | Omega, Ring info | DWOVAX::STARK | Fear is the mind killer | Wed Oct 21 1992 11:56 | 11 |
| re: .51, Mary,
The_Omega_Project
Kenneth Ring, Ph.D
William Morrow & Co., N.Y.
ISBN 0-688-10729-X
His two previous works (focusing entirely on Near Death Experience,
as far as I know) were something like 'Heading Toward Omega,' and
'Life in Death.' I haven't read either of those.
todd
|
| 129.53 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Wed Oct 21 1992 12:03 | 1 |
| Thanks Todd
|
| 129.54 | Mesmerism explained | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Thu Oct 22 1992 17:49 | 107 |
|
How Mesmerism works
Now we begin to see what it is that the mesmerizer
pours into his subject. It may be either the nerve
ether or the vitality, or both. Supposing a patient
to be seriously weakened or exhausted, so that he has
lost power to specialize the life fluid for himself,
the mesmerizer may renew his stock by pouring some of
his own upon the quivering nerves, and so produce a
rapid recovery.
The process is analogous to what is often done in the
case of food. When a person reaches a certain stage of
weakness, the stomach loses the power to digest, and so
the body is not properly nourished, and the weakness is
is thereby increased. The remedy adopted in that case
is to present to the stomach food already partially
digested by means of pepsin or other similar preparation;
this can probably be assimilated, and thus strenght is
gained.
Just so, a man who is unable to specialize for himself
may still absorb what has been already specialized by
another, and so gains strength to make an effort to resume
the normal action of the etheric organs. In many cases
of weakness, that is all that is needed.
There are other instances in which congestion of some kind
has taken place, the vital fluid has not circulated properly,
and the nerve aura is sluggish and unhealthy. Then the
obvious course of proceeding is to replace it by healthy
nerve aura from without; but there are several ways in which
this may be done.
Some magnetizers simply employ brute force, and steadily
pour in resistless floods of their own ether in the hope
of washing away that which needs removal. Success may be
attained along these lines, though with the expenditure of
a good deal more energy than necessary.
A more scientific method is that which goes to work somewhat
more quietly, and first withdraws the congested or diseased
matter, and then replaces it by healthier nerve-ether thus
gradually stimulating the sluggish current into activity.
If the man has a headache, for example, there will almost
certainly be a congestion, and the first step is to draw
that away.
How is this to be managed ?. Just in the same way as the
outpouring of strength is managed -by an exercise of the
will. We must not forget that these finer subdivisions
of matter are readily moulded or affected by the action
of the human will. The mesmerist may make passes, but
they are at most nothing but the pointing of his gun at
a certain direction, while his will is the powder tha
moves the the ball and produces the result, the fluid
being the shot sent out.
A mesmerizer who understands his business can manage as
well without passes if he wishes. The only use of the hand
is to concentrate the fluid, and perhaps to help the
imagination of the operator; for to will strongly he must
believe, and the action no doubt makes it easier to realize
what he is doing.
Just as a man may pour out magnetism by an effort of the will,
so may he draw it away by an effort of will, though in this
case he may often use a gesture of the hands to help him.
In dealing with the headache, he would probably lay his hands
upon the forehead of the patient, and think of them as
sponges steadily drawing out the unhealthy magnetism from
the brain.
That he is actually producing the result of which he thinks,
he will probably soon discover; for unless he takes precautions,
he will either himself feel the headache or begin to suffer
from a pain in the arm and hand with which the operation is
being performed. He is actually drawing into himself the
disease matter, and it is necessary for his comfort and well
being that he should dispose of it before it obtains a
permanent lodgment in his body.
He should therefore adopt some definite plan to get rid of it,
and the simplest is to just throw it away, to shake it from
the hands as one would shake water. Although he does not see
it, the matter which he has withdrawn is physical, and can
be dealth with by physical means. It is therefore necessary
that he should not neglect these precautions, and the he
should not forget to wash his hands carefully after curing
a headache or any malady of that nature.
Then, after he has removed the cause of the evil, he proceeds
to pour in good strong healthy magnetism to take its place,
and to protect the patient against the return of the disease.
One can see that in the case of any nervous affection, this
method would have manifold advantages. In most of such cases,
what is wrong is an irregularity of the fluids which course
along the nerves; either they are congested, or they are
sluggish in their flow, or on the other hand, they may be too
rapid; they may be deficient in quantity, or poor in quality.
Now, if we administer drugs of any sort, at the best we can
only act upon the physical nerve, and through in it to some
limited extent upon the fluids surrounding it; whereas
mesmerism acts directly upon the fluids themselves, and so
goes straight to the root of the evil.
|
| 129.55 | More on Mesmerism | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Thu Oct 22 1992 17:56 | 60 |
|
Reason behind Mesmerism
In those other cases where trance is produced, or where
the rigidity of certain muscles is one of the results,
the will of the operator is also concerned, and force
of some sort is always poured in. But the will is
somewhat differently directed; instead of curing, or
of withdrawing evil magnetism, the mesmerizer is
thinking of dominating the will of the subject, or of
replacing the man's nerve aura either partially or
entirely by his own.
When this latter is the case, the subject's nerves no
longer report to his brain, but a close sympathy is
created between the two persons concerned. This may
be made to work in two ways -so that the operator
feels instead of the subject, or that the subject feels
everything that touches the operator.
There have been cases in which, while the subject was
entranced, the operator stood with his hands behind him
a few yards away; and if some third person pricked the
hand of the operator (hidden behind his back, so that
the sensitive could by no possibility see it in the
ordinary way) the subject would immediately rub the
corresponding hand, as though she had felt the prick
instead of the mesmerizer.
Presumably, his nerve-ether was in connection with her
brain instead of her own, and when she received from
this aura the feeling that she would otherwise associated
with a prick in her hand, she supposed it come from its
usual source, and acted accordingly.
This is after all, only a phenomenon of precisely the
same nature as that which we observe when a man has had
his arm removed by an operation; sometimes something will
cause irritation to one of the nerves which were originally
connected with the fingers, and his brain will refer this
sensation to its accustomed cause, and the man will assert
that he feels pain in the amputated limb.
Another analogous experiment is made in optical study; it is
possible to produce a slight electrical discharge inside a
person's head, thus affecting the optic nerve at an inter-
mediate point, instead of through the retina of the eye.
When this is done, the brain registers the flash as though
it had come through the ordinary channel, and it seems
to the man that he has seen a flash external to himself.
The brain instinctively refers the impression which it
receives to the source from which such impressions have
always hitherto come. It is as though we should tap a
telegraph wire at an intermediate point, and send a message
thence; the operator at each end would suppose that the
message came from the operator at the other end; it would
not occur to them that the signals which had always hitherto
come from the other station were now caused at an intermediate
point.
|
| 129.56 | Mesmerism examples | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Thu Oct 22 1992 17:57 | 81 |
|
Examples of Mesmerism
We now begin to glimpse the method in which mesmeric
phenomena are produced. This nerve-aura of nerve-ether
is the intermediary on the one hand between "will" and
physical action, and on the other between the impressions
received upon the physical plane and the mind which
accepts and analyzes them.
So when the mesmerist substitutes his own nerve-aura
for that of the subject, he can control both the actions
and sensations of his patient. The nerves which normally
bear messages from the man's own brain now bring them
from a different brain; but the muscles, receiving their
message through the accustomed channels, obey it
unhesitatingly, and so the man can be made to do all
kinds of foolish and incongrous actions.
On the other hand, since the reception and translation
of all impressions from without depends upon this nerve-aura,
when it is under foreign control, any illusion may be
conveyed to the undeveloped, and therefore undiscerning ego.
The author remembers seeing an instance where a mesmerist
threw a native servant into a mesmeric condition who could
not speak English. The man seemed as usual, and was not
in any obvious kind of trance, yet as to impressions, he
was absolutely under the control of the mesmerist's will.
The mesmerist asked (in English) what illusion should be
produced, and some one suggested that a line of fire should
be seen in a certain part of the room. The mesmerist made
one strong pass in the direction indicated, thereby
creating a vigorous thought-form; then the servant was
called up and told to walk around the room.
The servant moved quite naturally until he reached the
imaginary line, when he manifested symptoms of great surprise
and terror and cried out that there was fire in the way,
and that he could not pass. In another case, the mesmerist
drew an imaginary line on the ground and willed that the
servant should be unable to pass over it -the servant of course
not being present.
The servant was then called by his master, and came briskly
as usual, but when he reached the imaginary line he stumbled
and almost fell, and as he recovered himself he declared
that he must be bewitched, since something held his feet, so that
he could not move. And though he made several efforts, he was
evidently unable to cross that imaginary line, though he was
much puzzled and frightened to find himself in such an
incomprehensible dilemma.
Such instances show us how dangerous this power might become
in the hands of an unscrupulous man. The servant could easily
have been led into foolish or even criminal action under the
influence of some other imposed dilemma. Experiments have
shown that in such cases actions may be delayed -that a person
may be impressed to do a certain thing, say, at 3 o'clock
tomorrow, and then awakened from the mesmeric influence.
At 3 o'clock tomorrow, a sudden uncontrollable impulse will
come over him to do that thing, and in the vast majority
of cases, he will at once proceed to do it. Uncontrollable
is perhaps too strong a word, for no impulse is really that,
but this thought which will arise within the man is in no
way distinguishable from a thought or impulse of his own,
and most men do not greatly reason about their impulses,
or make much effort to weight and govern them.
If the act ordered were an immoral one, a good and pure
subject would be much horrified, and a struggle would arise,
which might end in submission to the impulse or victory
over it. The results of some of these experiments have shown
that there are cases in which innate virtue is strong enough
to triumph over even the most determined attempt to compel
it to violate its conscience, but in the majority of instances,
the temptation prevailed. You see, therefore, how necessary
it is that every mesmerist should be good and pure-hearted,
as he might readily be tempted to misuse so terrible a power.
|
| 129.57 | Advice on Mesmerism | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Thu Oct 22 1992 18:33 | 62 |
|
Advice on Mesmerism
For this reason among others, it is not well to dabble
in mesmerism or to play with it. All psychic forces
are distinctly edged tools for the inexperienced person,
and all who take up the investigation of any of them
will do well to prepare themselves by an exhaustive
study of the results attained by their predecessors,
for it is only when armed with knowledge and shielded by
purity of intention and selflessness that the neophyte
can be certain of safety.
All these things -mesmerism, spiritualism, telepathy-
should be taken up seriously and scientifically if they
are taken up at all. As someone has already remarked:
"If you cannot or will not examine the subject seriously,
you had a thousand times better leave it alone. It is
unwise for a boy to go fooling around a buzz-saw. Anybody
with a smattering of chemistry can manufacture dynamite,
but the premiscuous experimenting with high explosives is
more likely to result in explosion than profit. And, if
you feel disposed to go in for the fun of the thing, every
serious investigator has only one word to dsy, and that
is: don't".
There is no need, however, for the peaceable member of the
general public to go about in fear of having gruesome and
uncanny currents of mesmeric influence poured upon him from
unexpected directions. It is quite easy for any ordinary
person to resist any effort on the part of another to act
upon him in this this way, and in all the terrible cases
of which we hear, where some weak-willed victim is used
as a tool in the hands of an unscrupulous villain, we may
be sure that there has been a long series of previous
experiments, to which the victim willingly lent himself,
before that baneful control was so firmly establlished.
It is only in novels that one glance from the eye of the bold,
bad man reduces an unfortunate heroine to abject submission.
In real life, those who are unselfish and determined need
have no fear.
Before the higher faculties can be employed, the lower must
be controlled, and as many persons have not yet learnt to
do this for themselves, it is only when some external
repression is applied that their innate senses have any
opportunity of action. But in all cases, it is better for
the man to manage his own affairs, and wait for psychic
powers until he can obtain them naturally in the course of
his evolution, without needing the application of force
from without to aid him in conquering his own lower nature.
Steady natural development is always the safest and best,
and the character is in all cases the first point to which
training should be applied. Let him educate his heart, that
it shall be pure and true, and his intellect, that he may
be balanced by common sense and reason, so shall he be ready
for psychic faculty and mesmeric power when they come to him,
and as of old, it still remains true: "Seek ye first the
kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things
shall be added unto you."
|
| 129.58 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Fri Oct 23 1992 17:58 | 1 |
| Thank you for entering these notes... they are facinating.
|
| 129.59 | thank you too...and a question | TNPUBS::PAINTER | worlds beyond this | Fri Oct 23 1992 18:22 | 7 |
|
Juan,
Are you using the terms 'mesmerism' and 'hypnotism' interchangably?
Or is there a difference?
Cindy
|
| 129.60 | They are the same | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Mon Oct 26 1992 12:04 | 8 |
|
Cindy,
Mesmerism and Hypnotism are used interchangeably,
they are names used to describe the same activity, Hypnotism
is used more commonly in these times, while Mesmerism was used
in older times.
|
| 129.61 | | PLAYER::BROWNL | Life begins at 40(Mhz) | Tue Oct 27 1992 09:57 | 4 |
| Mesmerism is named after Mesmer, who, if memory serves, was a German
physician who propounded the technique.
Laurie.
|
| 129.62 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 27 1992 15:35 | 2 |
| What proof is there that mesmerism actually exists at all?
Do you have scientific evidence to support this?
|
| 129.63 | You will fall asleep as you read this ... | DWOVAX::STARK | TV, cathode ray nipple | Tue Oct 27 1992 16:12 | 44 |
| re: mesmerism and hypnotism
I don't know if this will help, and I don't have any sources with me,
but from memory this is what I remember reading about mesmerism...
The term mesmerism, as Laurie stated, comes from Anton Mesmer, whose
healing technique was based on what he called 'magnetism' (and he used
magnetized iron filings in his method, I think). The term mesmerism
was coined for his technique, for obvious reasons. The consensus of later
study pretty much concluded that what Mesmer was doing was mostly or
entirely the same as what we now call hypnotism (the root coming from
'sleep'). This of course is still being studied from many angles,
and has gone through various phases of being explained in different
terms, but I think is mostly considered a phenomena of attentional
state, or of a special form of social learning primarily, rather than an
external magnetic force as proposed by Mesmer.
Mesmerism is now considered an archaic term in most places, I think,
unless specifically referring to Mesmer himself. The fact that
the Theosophical writings use the term seems to me to simply mean
that they were written about 50 years ago, when the term was
in more common usage. I think that most of the original source matter for
Theosophy was written between 1875 and the early 1900's, based on
'chanelled' writings by a few noted mediums (media ?).
re: .62,
From what I've seen, not all researchers believe that there is such a
thing as a distinct 'hypnotic state,' and that all of the hypnotic-related
phenomena can be and are acheived in a more 'waking state' of
consciousness, under the right conditions. The whole business of states of
consciousness is in fact a little bit vague, from what I can tell,
and only a few people have really put much effort in formallizing it from
what I've seen. Like Charles Tart, most notably. The distinction
is further blurred by the advent of the 'conversational'
(non-trance) hypnotic methods first popularized by the late pioneering
hypnosis-using psychoanalyst Milton Erickson.
So, the answer is probably, as usual, something like 'there is some
evidence that weird things not easily or fully explained by most
conventional theories happen under the right conditions, and may merit
further investigation.' :-)
kind regards,
todd
|
| 129.64 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 27 1992 16:52 | 11 |
|
Todd,
Can you provide the evidence of sequencing, cross-checking,
testing, examination of alternate hypotheses to support the existance
of mesmerism?
Don't you think it's kind of silly for us to just assume that this
exists? I mean we all know that stage magicians use tricks but
The Great Randi has proven over and over again that it's all just
tricks. Why waste our time on such nonsense?
|
| 129.65 | Clarification | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Tue Oct 27 1992 17:35 | 30 |
|
I just wanted to clarify that when I was talking
about Mesmerism, or Hypnotism if you will, I was
refering to faculties that have been developed by
many for the purpose of aiding humanity, NOT for
the purpose of performing tricks on a stage for
profit.
A true magician doesn't perform for show or profit,
only to help others when needed, although there have been
a few instances where this has happened, it can only prove
to the detriment of the particular individual in question
and can only set him back on his own evolution. To waste
one's mental advancement just to show off or for profit
would be a most wasteful practice.
Those who perform magic tricks on stage for profit
or just to show off, are not real magicians, they
are illusionists, and many admit that, they use
tricks, sleight of hand, mirrors, etc. to create
the illusions.
As I have mentioned before, when you concentrate on helping
others, you help yourself, and those faculties will come
to you as a natural progression of your own advancement
on the scheme of evolution. I only entered the information
to show how things really work in the unseen world, not as
an endorsement that you should seek them and use them for
your own advantage.
|
| 129.66 | Hypnosis reference | DWOVAX::STARK | TV, cathode ray nipple | Tue Oct 27 1992 18:02 | 117 |
| re: .64,
> Can you provide the evidence of sequencing, cross-checking,
> testing, examination of alternate hypotheses to support the existance
> of mesmerism?
I don't really want to get into a discussion of 'the value of science'
and all that, but assuming (mesmerism == hypnotism), and that the
intention behind 129.64 has a component of true interest in hypnotism :-)
here's a good reference for the modern scientific study of hypnotic
phenomena. This is cross-posted from the PSYCHOLOGY conference (I thought
I stuck it here in DV too, but I couldn't find it) ...
<<< QUOKKA::DISK$ARCH2:[NOTES$LIBRARY2]PSYCHOLOGY.NOTE;2 >>>
-< Topics in Psychology >-
================================================================================
Note 5.19 Related Readings?? 19 of 19
DWOVAX::STARK "an eagle, to the sea" 97 lines 13-FEB-1992 08:46
-< New release : _Theories_of_Hypnosis_ >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"... Henceforth, serious discussion of the nature of hypnosis
will begin here."
... says T.X. Barber reviewing the new book _Theories_of_Hypnosis_,
promoted by Guilford Press as a collection of authoritative articles
on the most current theories of hypnosis, edited by Steven Lay Lynn
and Judith W. Rhue.
Guilford claims that this is the current state-of-the-science
in this field, covering all major theories, organized to promote
the reader's ability to compare and contrast the strengths and
weaknesses of the various empirical methods used to address
crucial theoretical questions.
Important issues covered from a number of different perspectives
include the relationship between hypnosis and altered states
of consciousness, the volunatary and involuntary nature of
hypnotic behavior, the stability and modifiability of the
hypnotizability 'trait,' and making meaningful distinctions between
hypnotic and non-hypnotic behaviors.
Here is the table of contents :
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Theories of Hypnosis, an Introduction, Lyunn and Rhue
I. HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES
1. Early Theories : A clinical perspective, Hilgard
2. History and Historigraphy , Spanos and Chaves
II. SINGLE-FACTOR THEMES
A. The Neodissociation Perspective
3. A Neodissociation Interpretation of Hypnosis, Hilgard
4. An Neodisssociative Critique of Spano's Social-Psychological
Model of Hypnosis, Bowers and Davison
5. Hypontizability : Individual differences in dissociation
and the flexible control of psychological processes,
Evans
B. Hypnosis as psychological regression
6. Hypnosis as a special case of regression, Nash
C. Hypnosis as relaxation
7. Anesis, Edmonston
III. CLINICAL PERSPECTIVES
8. The Locksmith model : accessing hypnotic responsiveness,
Barber.
9. Ericksonian Hypnotherapy : A Communications approach, Zeig and
Rennick
IV. THE SOCIAL-COGNITIVE PERSPECTIVE
10. Role Theory : a dramaturgical and narrational perspetive, Coe
and Sarbin
11. Social-Cognitive approach, Spanos
12. Compliance, belief, and semantics in hypnosis : a nonstate,
social-cognitive perspective, Wagstaff
13. An integrative model of hypnosis, Lynn and Rhue
14. Social Learning Theory of hypnosis, Kirsch
15. Ecosystemic approach, Fourie
V. INTERACTIVE-PHENOMENOLOGICAL MODELS
16. Two disciplines of scientific hypnosis : a synergistic model,
Nadon, Laurence, Perry
17. Hypnosis, COntext, and COmmittment, Sheehan
18. The construction and resolution of experience and behavior
in hypnosis, McConkey
19. TOward a Social-Psychobiological Model of Hypnosis, Banyai
VI. CONCLUSIONS
20. Hypnosis Theories : Themes, Variations, and Research
Directions, Lynn and Rhue.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
634 pp., ISBN 0-89862-343-X. Recent publication price of $45 from
the publisher.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
todd
|
| 129.67 | Hypnosis comments. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Tue Oct 27 1992 18:57 | 34 |
| Do I detect a slight note of "devil's advocacy", Mary? :-)
In any case, I should note:
1) Stage hypnosis seems to be a somewhat different -- and IMHO less
healthy -- phenomenon than hypnosis in an ordinary clinical or
experimental environment. Certainly it is related but there are also
some distinct differences.
2) Mesmerism is still commonly used in the literature to refer to the
procedures/theories of all the early practitioners -- not just Mesmer
himself.
3) There is *very* thorough evidence that when certain procedures or
rituals, called "hypnotic induction procedures" are done, psychological
changes take place among many co-operative people participating in
those procedures. Neo-behaviorists define a "state of consciousness"
to require that there be a distinct neurophysiological (e.g., EEG) or
physiological change associated with entering the "state". Although I
have recently heard rumors that such a change has been found, the
general consensus is that by this definition of "state" the result of
an hypnotic induction procedure is not a "state" and therefore there is
no hypnotic "state". Similarly it is argued that because the rituals
which produce those changes, particularly in some individuals, has not
been completely characterized (i.e., the same apparent psychological
characteristics may be produced in people under the right circumstances
without the usual rituals) that there is no such thing as the hypnotic
state. Again, I think that this misses the point. That the boundary
is not precisely defined does not mean that there isn't an objectively
useful concept refering to a *subjective* state of consciousness.
4) It's the Amazing Randi not the Great Randi (in more ways than one).
Topher
|
| 129.68 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 27 1992 19:06 | 30 |
| CADSYS::COOPER
> Do I detect a slight note of "devil's advocacy", Mary? :-)
:-)... I'm a skeptic now, Topher. I want someone to prove to me
beyond a shadow of a doubt that this foolishness exists before
I discuss it.
> 3) There is *very* thorough evidence that when certain procedures or
> rituals, called "hypnotic induction procedures" are done, psychological
> changes take place among many co-operative people participating in
> those procedures. Neo-behaviorists define a "state of consciousness"
> to require that there be a distinct neurophysiological (e.g., EEG) or
> physiological change associated with entering the "state". Although I
> have recently heard rumors that such a change has been found, the
> general consensus is that by this definition of "state" the result of
> an hypnotic induction procedure is not a "state" and therefore there is
> no hypnotic "state". Similarly it is argued that because the rituals
> which produce those changes, particularly in some individuals, has not
> been completely characterized (i.e., the same apparent psychological
> characteristics may be produced in people under the right circumstances
> without the usual rituals) that there is no such thing as the hypnotic
> state. Again, I think that this misses the point. That the boundary
> is not precisely defined does not mean that there isn't an objectively
> useful concept refering to a *subjective* state of consciousness.
Does the evidence indicate that people can be hypnotised at a
distance, Topher? Great numbers of people maybe... without their
knowledge or conscious participation?
|
| 129.69 | | CARTUN::MISTOVICH | | Tue Oct 27 1992 19:11 | 5 |
| re: last
Can a great number of people be hypnotised at a distance?
What do you think t.v. is all about? ;-)
|
| 129.70 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Tue Oct 27 1992 19:17 | 1 |
| I don't mean on tv though, Mary...
|
| 129.71 | Short answer: no. | CADSYS::COOPER | Topher Cooper | Tue Oct 27 1992 20:12 | 36 |
| Non-self-hypnosis as it is understood today requires communication
between the person in the role of hypnotist and the person in the role
of "subject." In a sense -- since hypnosis is essentially defined in
terms of being the result of a particular kind of interaction -- such a
communication must be present for us to recognize it as hypnosis.
Remeber, dispite stereotypes of bygone eras, hypnosis does not involve
coercive influence much less any subtle form of coercive influence
being hypnosis.
In principle, telepathy could be used to provide the communication
necessary for hypnotic induction -- just as a telephone, recording or
television channel could. In practice, at least as observed in
"scientific settings" (which is what we are speaking of), telepathy
does not have the reliability, bandwidth or "literalness" to support
such specific rituals.
Experiments (which were not very rigorous by the standards of modern
parapsychology, but which were, nevertheless impressive) in "remote
hypnosis" were conducted in Eastern Europe at the turn of the century.
Most of these experiments did not involve induction in the ordinary
sense. Rather they involved remotely triggering a post-hypnotic
suggestion (usually a post-hypnotic suggestion to reenter the hypnotic
state). When it was demonstrated that these experiments continued to
apparently work even when electromagnetic influences could be excluded
psychical research was declared as "mysticism" and contrary to the
tenants of Dialectic Materialism and thus contrary to the interests of
the Communist State. Research was suppressed for many decades until
it was revived (for the most part, not involving remote hypnosis) with
the offending experiments "forgotten".
So the answer is no: except by means of known communication media, it
has not been established that hypnosis at a distance occurs. The
question of whether remote unconscious coercion occurs (also not
established) is a distinct one.
Topher
|
| 129.72 | | KERNEL::BELL | Hear the softly spoken magic spell | Wed Oct 28 1992 07:50 | 18 |
|
Following on from Mary M and your own comments in .71 Topher, have you
any idea how likely it is that someone could be hypnotised/mesmerised
using TV as an intermediary ?
My initial suspicion is that it could probably work if the subject was
willing [ and in a suitable environment of course ] but unlikely to work
if the subject was unaware of the attempt (ie., not by "accident" or by
misleading trickery) [cf. self-hypnosis tapes, etc.].
Have there been experiments in hypnotism across closed circuit TV (for
example) ? (ie., similar lab environment but with a physical barrier
between subject and inducer [?terminology?] only crossed by an electronic
audio-visual link ?)
Any comments on this please ?
Frank
|
| 129.73 | Wrong use of knowledge... | STUDIO::GUTIERREZ | I'm on my break. Do you care..? | Wed Oct 28 1992 11:48 | 51 |
|
There has been some concern on the part of some
noters about the fact that the knowledge which
has been revealed on this public Notesfile could
be used for the wrong purpose by some. In that
respect, I have to say that knowledge that has
been revealed and is available to anyone who
takes the time to look for it, should not be
held back just because it could be used for the
wrong purpose. The sun shines for everyone,
it doesn't discriminate against the wicked.
If anyone uses such information for the wrong
purpose, the Law of Cause and Effect (Karma)
will take care of that. Whether you believe
that such law exists or not has no effect on
its workings, anymore that not believing in the
law of gravity will prevent a rock from coming
back down after you throw it up.
My purpose for posting such information is to
help those who have been looking for such type
of knowledge with the hope that it will help them
better understand how things really work in the
unseen world, or to clarity it for those who may
have already been exposed to it. By doing so,
I also help myself, so it's not completely unselfish
on my part.
I have no desire to change anyone's beliefs, if you
don't agree with what has been posted, you have the
right to reject it, it makes no difference to me,
I believe it to be the truth, and if it is so, then
the truth will prevail. If it turns out that it is
not the truth, the truth will also prevail, and I will
find it eventually.
I don't claim to know all or to be an expert at those
matters, I just want the truth. What I have found
answers the great majority of my questions to my
satisfaction, and I am more than glad to share them
with others who may find it beneficial. If I can help
clarify some point for anyone who doesn't quite understand
it, I will do so if I can, but I won't defend or prove
anything that has been posted, or try to convince anyone,
or try to change anyone's convictions, only you can do that.
If anyone has a better explanation as to why things happen
the way they do in our world, and/or why seemingly
innocent people suffer apparently injustices, I would
like to hear about it.
|
| 129.74 | Oops, typo, make that 'their audiences' | PLAYER::BROWNL | Life begins at 40(Mhz) | Wed Oct 28 1992 11:48 | 5 |
| I should think that the kind of fervour demagogues like Adolf Hitler
and Billy Graham managed to to inject in thier audiences is a form of
hypnotism, and at a 'distance', albeit not via a TV screen.
Laurie.
|
| 129.75 | Heh, heh, extract that typo for future reference :-) | KERNEL::BELL | Hear the softly spoken magic spell | Wed Oct 28 1992 12:14 | 6 |
|
Re .-1 (Laurie)
I think that the examples you gave owe more to hysteria than hypnotism.
Frank
|
| 129.76 | To trance or not to trance ? | DWOVAX::STARK | TV, cathode ray nipple | Wed Oct 28 1992 13:30 | 44 |
| re: More on hypnosis, especially hypnosis over TV ...
'Hypnosis' in science has some fairly specific connotations, and I'm not
as familiar with this as Topher, but as far as I am aware there is at
least still the useful distinction of [hypnosis that uses a somewhat
identifiable 'trance,'] and [that which obtains similar behavioral results
without outwardly identifiable 'trance.']
Many of the popular sales and marketing techniques used on
television fall well within the realm of techniques covered by
'conversational' (non-trance) hypnosis, I think.
As for more standard 'hypnotic induction rituals,' based on prerequisite
trance induction, it's possible (IMHO) to do so, and that a certain
percentage of people would be affected...
... *but* I think that largely due to the *expectation*
of most people to be entertained by television programming, that the
repetitive, monotone nature of a typical induction would prompt
more people to change channels than to become extraordinarily receptive to
suggestion. If you were to look for the most powerful means by which
TV affects people in covert ways, I think the 'conversational hypnosis'
covers a larger percentage of the likely effects than trance hypnosis,
from what I've seen.
I've seen films of the late Milton Erickson, for
example, and while he was one of the great masters of this craft,
in all its forms, when done in person, I don't think most people would be
able to stay interested in following his induction for more than a few
seconds before wondering what was supposed to be happening. If he
were to be trying to influence a wide TV audience with his induction,
it would have to be something radically different than what I saw
him do with patients.
Subtle touch was a big part of his technique, as was subtle feedback of
what the individual themself was doing (mirroring their vocal patterns,
movements, breathing rate, posture, all in very subtle ways, as discovered
by Bandler and Grinder when they analyzed his methods for their early
'NLP' research). So subtle in fact, that Erickson was himself
apparently surprised that he was doing all that !
kind regards,
todd
|
| 129.77 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Wed Oct 28 1992 13:54 | 8 |
| PLAYER::BROWNL
> I should think that the kind of fervour demagogues like Adolf Hitler
> and Billy Graham managed to to inject in thier audiences is a form of
> hypnotism, and at a 'distance', albeit not via a TV screen.
I agree with, Laurie.
|
| 129.78 | It's a Rat Trap Judy...AND YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT | WARNUT::NISBETD | Huggy Wuggy Duggie | Thu Oct 29 1992 09:50 | 3 |
| You're up to something Mary...
Dougie McSuspicious
|
| 129.79 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Thu Oct 29 1992 19:24 | 1 |
| No .. I'm not up to anything. Who is Judy?
|
| 129.80 | Punch and Judy? | TNPUBS::PAINTER | Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam | Thu Oct 29 1992 20:57 | 1 |
|
|
| 129.81 | Walk, Don't Walk | WARNUT::NISBETD | Huggy Wuggy Duggy | Fri Oct 30 1992 12:43 | 6 |
| > No .. I'm not up to anything. Who is Judy?
It's part of the lyric for Rat Trap by the Boomtown Rats - who deftly chucked
John Travolta offa the No. 1 slot.
Dougie
|
| 129.82 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Fri Oct 30 1992 12:50 | 1 |
| Well... I'm definitely not in Kansas anymore...
|
| 129.83 | Look out, look out. | DWOVAX::STARK | TV, cathode ray nipple | Fri Oct 30 1992 13:16 | 3 |
| > Well... I'm definitely not in Kansas anymore...
But then neither is that nasty old house looming overhead ... :-)
|
| 129.84 | | VERGA::STANLEY | what a long strange trip it's been | Fri Oct 30 1992 13:41 | 1 |
| Thanks for the warning... :-)
|