Conference hydra::dejavu

    I am a member of the Buddism that chants Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.  I
    have had multiple experiences.   
    
    	Nam      means devotion or to fuse one's life with
        Myoho    means Mystic Law or the Law of Cause and Effect
        Renge    means Lotus flower and symgolizes the simultaneous
                 cause and effect
        Kyo      means sutra
    
    
    There are several differant forms of Buddism that chant Nam Myoho
    Renge Kyo.   I belong to an organization called NSA.  
    
    The one thing that really appealed to me about this Buddism was
    when members encouraged me to chant they told Don't believe this
    works but Test it out.
    
    Well test it out I did and everything that I have chanted for has
    come about!!!!!!!!!   Alot of the experiences I initially put off
    to coincedent but I have had so many coincedents now that I have
    come to believe in the validity of this practice.
    
    

    	I attended one meeting of such a chanting group, and have one
    of their little books, which is all in Japanese Kanji, with English
    transliteration (as opposed to translation). 
    
    	"Nam Myoho Renge Kyo" is the name of a scripture which is usually
    known as "The Threefold Lotus Sutra". It is one of the foundational
    works of Mahayana Buddhism. It is incredible to read, highly
    recommended. For insight, subtlty, tactfullness, ... amazing.
    
    	I've read some of the NSA literature, and am interested, but
    never chanted regularly, or really used it to "wish" for anything,
    though as I understand it, that is the point. While the people I
    met were nice enough, and I do feel pleasant when chanting it in
    my car or wherever, my first impression was that the way it was
    being used seemed oddly un-Buddhist. Desires, according to Buddhism,
    are what trap us into attachment to the physical world of phantasms,
    of fleeting pain and pleasure. The NSA philosophy is, fullfillment
    of all desires IS freedom from desires. I can accept it now, but
    it seemed very strange to me then...then again, Buddhism ALWAYS
    teaches in ways that the student doesn't expect.
    
    	I was told that you needed a wall hanging, called a gohunzai
    (sp?) to do this properly. Perhaps someone could post an address
    to send for one? I've lost track of the people who introduced me
    to this. 
    
    	I've started a note in HOLISTIC on Buddhism, especially
    the philosophy and history. Do a KP7 SELECT to add it to ye olde
    Notebook. Note 23 is Buddhism in general, 29 is the Eightfold Noble
    Path, which is the Buddha's practical path to freedom from suffering.
                    
    	Ed

    	The Gohonzon (the wall hanging) can not be ordered but is issued
    at a ceremony called gojakai.   There are gojakai ceremonies on
    a regular basis in Boston and New York.    This form of Buddism
    is relatively young.    It was founded by a man called Nicheran
    Daishonin in the 1200's.   This organization is reconized by the
    world peace council and particpates in activities for peace all
    the time.   NSA is the lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu believers
    in the United States.   There are lay orgainzation's in over 100
    countries around the world.   
    	When I chant I tap into such a positive flow of energy that
    is hard to describe.    When I chant about negative aspects of my
    life, I have always been able to change them around to positive
    situations.   
    	I don't know how or why chanting works and perhaps there is
    some scientific reason.  But I do know without a doubt that it does
    work.   Anyone interested in hearing more about this buddism and
    or recieving thier own Gohonzon send me mail and I will send you
    the phone numbers or try to anserw questions.   I am a new member
    and I don't know all the historical background but I do know people
    here in Dec that have been practicing many years.  

    	I have a theory about why chanting like this might work, I'd
    like to hear comments by people more experienced in mystical events
    than myself.
    
    	Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, and Buddhist Cosmology fit together
    incredibly nicely (in fact, I feel the first two REQUIRE the third
    in order to really make sense) and point to a view of the universe
    as a wholly interconnected system of dynamic centers (for lack of
    a better term. I could say "Buddha Natures", I could say "Frames
    of reference", I could say "Dharmas", I could say "particles", I
    could say "souls", I could say "Monads"). Each dynamic center
    participates in the dynamic balance of the universe as a whole.
    Each dynamic center appears (from another dynamic center) to be
    in a particular point in space at a particular time in a particular
    state. The state is only apparent, not absolute. When taken as a
    whole, the universe is empty, contains no substance, no energy,
    no mass. Each of the dynamic centers is a reflection of this overall
    state of the universe, and so is also ultimately absolutely empty.
    Yet, the emptyness is not a static emptyness, it is a dynamic cycle
    of change, of movement of opposites (Yin and Yang, matter and
    antimatter, positive and negative charge, etc)
    
    	Between the points of absolute emptyness, there are apparent
    events (phenomena, specific information, specific states of being)
    which come about through the resonances of dynamic centers interacting
    with each other through the specific geometries of space-time in
    localized areas. The source of the energies which are manifested
    in these events, however, are NOT localized to areas of space-time,
    but are in fact induced out of the underlying emptyness. Most events
    which happen around us, and most of our own states of consciousness
    come about through juxtapositions of gross objects in very local
    areas of space-time, and are in all likelyhood unique events. Chanting,
    on the other hand, brings about a state of consciousness which strives
    to be identical to other events which are not localized in space-time.
    In essence, as more and more dynamic centers reproduce the identical
    conditions of the chant, the more energy (arithmetically?
    multiplicitavely? Exponentially?) is available to each dynamic center.
    So, by getting more and more people to chant the same chant, more
    energy is available to all chanters THROUGHOUT TIME. In other words,
    the first time Nicheran Daishonin chanted, he tapped into the power
    produced by every person who would ever chant. 
    
    	The Gohonzon that he drew up helps to focus the exact state
    as well. 
    
    	There is also something to what the simple act of chanting does
    to the nervous system...focusing it, quieting it, emptying the clutter
    of the specific circumstances of life. I said my "personal name"
    quote just a few weeks ago spontaneously, driving in my car, and
    feel many of the same things I feel when I chant "Nam Myoho...",
    though it has some very pleasant imagery besides. I like chants
    that I understand. It might be an interesting experiment to have
    other people try out this new chant. I usually do it in a rhythmic
    pattern that puts emphasis on "Word", "Word", and "God", and repeat
    it in tone cycles of four (though the tone is not very different
    at different parts of the cycle. I'm a percussionist, so I'm always
    very aware of subtle musical attitudes in my mind. Trying to describe
    the "exact mental state" I'm doing is rather difficult, but according
    to my theory here, it would make a difference. Still, maybe I should
    just have some faith and say, There are the words, say them until
    you are comfortable with them, repeat them until you feel like
    stopping. There, I said it.)
    
    	Comments?
    
    	Ed
    

One of the things I've learned the hard way in life is that small 
indicators often betray larger issues.  If someone who I am 
getting to know explodes with disagreement in a discussion, I 
have discovered that often times that betrays a short-temper or 
disagreeable nature about life as well.  Not always, but 
usually.  What this has to do with the NSA is as follows:

About five years ago I met someone involved in the NSA, who made 
similar claims regarding the efficacy of their chant.  He "tested 
it out" to find he could "get things" or have things work for him 
as well.  Without going into details, he was so fervent about it 
that it seemed as though there was no room for doubt.  I got the 
feeling that anything that challenged his beliefs was *very* 
threatening.  In all fairness, he was not a well integrated 
personality and I think he was drawn to the NSA as a relief 
valve.  A couple of years later, he committed suicide.  (I also 
did some chanting with his group.)

I never had any further contact with NSA people until I went to 
a family funeral and met a long-lost cousin, who had gotten 
involved with it and seemed real together about it.  Oh good, I 
thought, a counter-example to my negative image of NSA people.  
My brother, who lives closer to this cousin, was invited by him 
to find out more.  He did.  He was sorry he did.  According to 
him, soon after he and his girlfriend arrived, they chanted 
together, then during the some sort of Q&A period, the intensity 
of energy directed toward them as "you're the outsiders and we're 
gonna TELL you how it really is, and how this stuff is gonna 
change your life around," and so on, was unbelievable.  My 
brother is very open to psychic influences and felt that he had 
been psychically attacked.  To say the least, it was a bad 
experience.

When he called to relate that story, I had just recently been
cornered into a discussion by yet another NSA member, who came up
to me and -- pointing to his chanting book -- asked point blank
if I'd ever chanted that.  The situation was pretty absurd, but I
gave him an honest answer when I said I had.  "Well, didn't it
work for you?" he asked.  I answered, "Of course!" From there, he
wanted to know why I wasn't still chanting it, and I told him it
wasn't as powerful as some other chants I knew.  He invited me to
an NSA dinner, to which I declined saying that I don't go in for
being proselytized, which is exactly what he was doing, albeit
fairly poorly. 

I introduced this reply with my theory that one small piece can 
represent the whole, perhaps not as clearly, but it's better to 
pay attention to the signals than be caught by surprise in 
something you wished you'd known more about beforehand.

I'm sure there are plenty of wonderful, incredible people in NSA. 
I wouldn't doubt it if there were replies to the effect that I'm 
completely mistaken about the organization.  However, if there's any 
hand writing on the wall, I'll at least use it as a partial 
description of what's going on.

My personal bias is:
1.  I don't trust groups that proselytize.
2.  I don't get involved with groups that make incredible claims
    about their technique (remember TM's claim about levitation?) 
    or leader.
3.  I trust my intuition regarding the flavor of the "energy" of 
    the group.

From my experience, all three of these should be heeded regarding 
NSA.

/chuck

    For Chuck and others;
    
    I am sure that you realize that when a person begins to develop
    and use "power" that they don't always use it to the best ends.
    What is true here is also true for the amatuer shaman (which I consider
    myself to be).
    
    I fully agree with your distaste for "membership drives" but that
    is the way Buddhism has been since day one.
    
    I think it is wonderful when someone learns how to not only create
    but improve their reality.  Sometimes it is like a child with a
    water hose, I usually get wet trying to get them to settle down.

Re .6:

>I am sure that you realize that when a person begins to develop
>and use "power" that they don't always use it to the best ends.
>What is true here is also true for the amatuer shaman (which I consider
>myself to be).

I agree emphatically, but that wasn't my motivation for my 
comments.

Different groups have different energies, just like the IBM 
corporate culture is different from ours (but with similarities 
as well).  To refine my point in .5 a little:  As a very rough 
over-generalization, groups tend toward being outer-directed or 
inner-directed.  The "OD" groups tend toward reliance on a 
specific leader, use of scriptures for guidance, and work in 
groups fortheir  socialization (for lack of a nicer word--few
want to admit to being "socialized" in this culture).

The "ID" groups tend toward reliance on personal experience over 
or equal to the leader's (if there is one), a remarkable lack of 
external scriptures for a framework, and group work focuses on 
sharing personal visions/dreams/what-have-you.  There's far fewer 
groups at the ID continuum than OD, but shamanism is certainly 
among them.

There's much overlap, but I wanted to emphasize my brief but 
memorable experiences of the NSA because of my personal distaste 
for OD groups, of which I would consider the NSA to be a good 
example.   

>I fully agree with your distaste for "membership drives" but that
>is the way Buddhism has been since day one.

What "membership drives" in Buddhism are you referring to?  I 
know that Buddhism has had a checkered history with its own 
proslytization efforts, but are we to accept that because this is 
the way its been we should shrug our shoulders and accept it?   

/chuck

    	While I wasn't terribly offended by the NSA people I met, I
    was not at all impressed with their motivations or practice. The
    "leader" in the group I saw had obviously never read the Lotus Sutra
    in translation. The idea of saying words without knowing what they
    mean reminded me too much of growing up in a Jewish Temple, memorizing
    prayers in Hebrew. 
    
    	The Buddha's attitude towards converting people (at least the
    impression one gets through the folklore) was a relaxed helpfulness.
    The Buddha would not go out of his way to tell people that he had
    the ultimate answers, but he would point out to people who came
    to listen the painful cycles they had trapped themselves in through
    the habits of their desires. 
                       
    	Ed
    
    	
    	

    HERE'S ONE...BEEN AT IT THREE YEARS ONE MONTH FEEL GREAT AND DOING
    GREAT.
    
    LET'S TALK
    
    MEL

    
    Anyone know where to get a small (approx. 5" diameter) Buddist
    prayer gong?		
    
    				Lance

    Would someone who knows tell us, phonetically how to pronounce this
    chant?

Nam - the "a" sounds like the "a" in father
Myoho - pronounced the way it looks, long "o" sound
Renge - rengyay is the best way to describe it
Kyo - similar to "myo" in Myoho

I hope this helps.  It's tough trying to describe pronounciation over the
tube.

		Dave

    	Nam-myoho/Renge/Kyo//
           ^     ^     ^   ^^
           |     |     |   Slightly longer pause, before repeating chant
           |     brief pauses
           |
    	   Run the "M's" together.
    
    	Also, "Myoho" is syllabolically (is that a word? Who cares?):
                        Myo-ho
    			
    Disclaimer: I do not regularly chant this, and am not a member of
    the NSA. I don't even own a Gohunza. (I don't even know how to spell
    it ;-)
    	
    	However, I have read parts of _The Threefold Lotus Sutra_ (which
    is basically the translation of the chant), and recommend it to others
    emphatically. An excellent English translation (The only one I know
    of) is published by Weatherhill/Kosei. There is also a guide to
    it which is also astonishingly useful called _A Guide to the Threefold
    Lotus Sutra_ by Nikkyo Niwano, published by Kosei Publishing Co.
    
    	Ed, Amateur Street Buddhist
    

Paul,

The y in "Myo" is pronounced as a consonant (as in "you").  The same for the y
in "Kyo".

		Dave