Conference hydra::dejavu

Most occultists agree that Castenata is more confused than enlightened.
Anytime you try to use a mind-altering substance as a shortcut to Occult
Knowledge, yu're asking for trouble, the late Dr. Israel Regardie to the
contrary nonwithstanding.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

	After I read my first Carlos book "Journey to X...." I triad the
technique used to determine wether an area was safe or not.  The technique
had you cross your eyes, focus sharply, and look for a spot that had some 
kind of comfortable glow.  I just got headaches.  
	I agree with Steve in that using paote or any mind altering substance
only leads one astray.  I do think that there are substances that may bend
your mind more toward psychic perceptability but it's hard enough figuring out
what's real and not without it.  You may get enlightened on drugs but filtering
out all the bullony makes it TTTC (Dick Albert-"Too Tough To Call).

								Jorge'

I've considered entering a note on Carlos several times and I glad someone
did. I've read all of his books (in the Don Juan teachings) and find them
all fascinating.  I've often wondered whether or not they were true. They
are all still under non-fiction, but they do stretch what most people perceive
as reality.  There are parts of these books that have helped me build my
picture of reality and other parts that do not fit at all.  As far as drugs
("power plants") are concerned, Carlos did them a relatively few number of
times in the earlier books. In the later books, drugs were not used at all.
I would like to read more on ancient Aztec and Toltec culture (religion?).

			Dave

Ah yes...  Carlos did do the drugs for a long period of time.  At a later
point in time he asked D.J. why he (Carlitos) was given the power plants in
the first place.  D.J. gave the reply that because Carlitos was stupid and
hard headed the power plants were needed to "shake up his world".  Jimson
Weed, 'shrooms and peyote will certainly do that.  

It is my unqualified opinion that the "traditions" or "parties" of the 
seers have created a "niche" in space and time for themselves.  Much like
the christians have created a heaven/earth/hell niche in space and time.
Consequently Carlos may be entirely truthful in his published endevors.  
 
If you have read "The Fire from Within" you will have noticed that everything
Carlos is saying is from a josteled memory.  This difference is readily
apparent when you compare the language of D.J. and D.G. in the earlier books
to their remembered statements in the later books.

Now for the big discovery.  Don Juans party is not gone.  They had to divorce
themselves from him because he was writing books about the seers.  This could
spell major trouble for the medicine men and women from the Mexican Government
if they were to tail Carlos to the party.  Therefore they have moved to another
area maybe with or without Carlitos' knowledge.  The apprentices were left with
Carlitos because they were not particularly gifted of commited.  Carol was taken
with the prior party because she was committed.  The most capable person left
is La Gorda.  Her apparent task it to assist Carlos (ie. to not hurt himself or 
others needlessly).

It is obvious that D.J. made a bad choice in his bid to pass on the knowledge.
He may now be passing on this knowledge to his real son.  Carlos is now left
out with only La Gorda to help him.  The other appentices have moved to other
places because they didn't want to be discovered or hounded by readers of 
Carlos Castenadas books.  Think about what you would do in Mexico. No freedom
of speech or press.  The government jailing or killing people who don't
conform and who are major threats. (ie. Messiah's of sorts).  They have moved
on because Carlos was a Story teller filled with pride.  On top of all that he
is hard headed, American and a trickster.  Any comments.

Mikie, Co. Sp.
 

	    Well, he's not American by birth . . .

	    I once saw a Castaneda book jump off the shelf at the cat.
	Make what you will of it . . .
			<_Jym_>

    When I read the first few books I believed there was a good chance
    that what he said was real. I tried some of the techniques (not
    the drug induced ones) with a good deal of success(strange happenings).
    
    Anyway what really bothered me after reading several of them was
    that he didn't seem to learn. What I mean is he made the same mistakes,
    false conclusions, ect as he always had. It seemed to me that for someone
    who seemed to have a good amount of inteligence was being awfully
    stupid.
    
    And the reason for this (I think) is to just carry the story line
    through a few more books (I.E. more money).
    
    Paul 

    re: .6
    
    You should try reading the rest of the books.  He does learn quite
    a bit in the later ones.  Quite intense, as a matter of fact.
    
    		Dave

	    See Notes #50.13 and #50.14 for an explanation of the books'
	progression.  If you're concerned about lining Castaneda's pock-
	ets (-:), you can always buy the paperbacks in a used paperback
	book store.
			<_Jym_>

    I cannot say whether or not the books written by Carlos Castanada
    are fact or fiction but I have always leaned toward the side of
    non-fiction. As for using mind altering substances to move along
    the road to Seeing I think that they were used more to shake the
    chains placed on the mind by the modern society than to actually
    help Carlos See. With what we are taught in schools and later in
    the "Real World" it is very hard for our minds to let go and believe
    in things that we have been taught don't exist, never have existed,
    and were made up by "old wives" to scare children into being good.
    As I said before I don't know whether they are fact or fiction but
    obviously the the people who gave him his Phd thought it was
    non-fiction.
    
    							Geoff

    I have recently read that Carlos Castenada was involved in some
    extension type work for another teacher.  He now is under the tutelage
    of a Toltec woman who is supposed to be pretty tough. For a couple
    years he ran under the name of Joe Cordoba and washed dishes in a
    roadside cafe somewhere in (I think) Texas. He seems to have spent a
    lotta' time in Argentina because he now speaks in an Argie dialect. 
    
    It seems to me that somewhere about 30% of what he wrote was real. The
    other 70% may be hype.  That's my guestimation at least. 
                                                                       
    Although I think his work is very interesting, I don't think he
    will write too much else.  Too much attention was being generated
    by Carlito and Don Juan had to leave town (so to speak) to avoid
    the comming deluge of Don Juan seekers.  I don't suspect that the
    new teacher will allow him to divulge anything for many years to
    come.
    
      Mikie?

       The book "Journey to Ixtlan:The Lessons of Don Juan " was most
    relevent to my own personal life.  Sure, the scenerios are different
    in my culture than in Don Juan's society, Allies take on different
    forms than those of Don Juan's world but becoming a person of knowledge
    is very similiar to the conditions described in Journey To Ixtlan:
    impeccable action, erasing personal history etc.  are definitely
    means of accessing power.  I haven't followed his teachings
    religiously, but over the years I have been able to tap power at
    times and make things happen.  Maybe not as fast and quickly as
    I sometimes would like them to happen, and haven't been able to
    see as Don Juan "sees" but There is definitely something to his
    writings. The results I,ve been getting can probably be rationalized
    any way anyone wants, But a key secret to storing this power is
    only by helping others store power (faint religious tones).
    
    Ernie.        
    (((( When the student is ready the teacher will appear.))))

    re: 18.9; (hallucinogens) being used to drop the chains placed upon
    us by society...to learn that what we were taught doesn't exist,
    does...
    
    Just as much misinformation can drop in when hallucinogens are used.
    You are open and vulnerable to what others might will you to believe,
    and it might not be right for *you*.  That path is like trying to
    take a shortcut; but I have come to believe that this kind of a
    shortcut bears a lot of negative karma; not only that, but you're
    going to have to go in and fill in the blanks that you missed by
    trying to rush.  It works ... but not as well as taking the slow,
    deliberate steps to get there on  your own.
    
    I've read a couple of Castenada books.  There is something of value
    in each, but I can't help but feel that those lessons could be learned
    in a more personal, valuable way for each of us, if we look within.
    
    Meredith

    I think it has to do with judgement Meredith, and with strength
    and will.  Some people can handle things that others cannot.
    Some begin with a stronger will than others have.  Hallucinogens
    have been used by medicine societies throughout time, from the 
    Mushroom Cults of the Incas, to the Amazon Witch Doctors.  While
    I am not advocating them, there are certainly those who had used
    this tool successfully.

    I worry about the possibility of frying some circuits.  I was also
    in a situation where I was with someone I thought was a good teacher,
    who used some of these methods to gain more control.  Granted, a
    great deal was learned, but it is also that much harder to sever
    the ties.  I also worry about the fine line between "discriminate"
    and "indiscriminate" use.  What type of parameters would .13 and
    .14 use to define how the use of hallucinogens could be positive
    and productive? - and, if it involves a teacher, how can one know,
    when under the influence, if that teacher is a positive force? I
    know those aren't easy questions to answer.
    
    It is my understanding that hallucinogens open us up to glimpses
    of our fullest potential.  Therein is my concern about "frying some
    circuits".  It is not always known to a person how strong is the
    will until tripping.
                                               
    I am curious as to how hallucinogens effect the energies of the
    body to produce the effects that they do.  Someone once said something
    (sorry so vague!) about 8 points of energy coming together.
    
    I know that in .12, I gave a negative response, but I like to keep
    an open mind.  Knowledge is power, and opening up the mind to change
    is the way to knowledge, as long as the mind doesn't open so far
    as to empty itself!~

    If you have any doubts at all ... don't.   

    Great news folks! The NEW book is out... "The Silence Within" (or
    someting to that effect). I haven't read it yet, but I have read
    all of his others. 
    
    Like alot of you, I don't know if all this stuff is "real" or not,
    but there have certainly been some *real* interesting insights into
    the workings of things.  I think being a warrior is kinda neat,
    but I don't know if one can take that path by oneself.  And I am
    not about to go chasing around the interior of Mexico looking for
    some Yaqui Indian sorceror...
    
    About the drug part... yes it certainly jiggles your perception
    of reality, and *may* leave you open to desireable *or* undesireable
    influences... I remember back in the 60's we were into tripping
    for the consciousness expansion bit.  It didn't *hurt* me (as far
    as I can tell) but I don't know what it did to my finer levels of
    perception.  I do know that I believe I learned alot and got a really
    different view of reality (several different views actually :-)).
    
    That was 20 years ago... now-a-days I detest what drugs are doing
    to an entire generation that doesn't seem to have an adequate
    development of a world view or nervous system as an anchor or platform
    for viewing alternate realities.  Drugs are just being used as an
    "escape" mechanism from a reality that is perceived to be (actually is?)
    too harsh to handle (ghettos, school, etc.) I doubt if any real
    consciousness expansion is taking place - probably just the opposite
    - alot of consciousness shrinkage.
    
    Larry   *.*
            \o/
    
    

    
    	I read the new book; "The Power Of Silence".   It's quite good!
    The best he's done yet.   It's reminiscent of "Journey To Ixtlan"
    in its organized presentation of Don Juan's ideas.
    
    	In this book Carlos tells us about Don Juan's teachings on
    "Intent".   This seems to be Don Juan's term for 'the will of the
    Spirit'.     The teachings are presented as a means for
    opening one's personal channel to "intent", to the will of God.   
    The sorcerer is presented here as one who can help others open 
    this channel.
    
    	Alan.

    
    
    I had this book on my Christmas list, however Santa must have
    decided that I wasn't ready for it yet :-)!  I too have read
    all of Castenada's books and am looking forward to this one,
    especially if it is like "Journey to Ixtlan" which is one of
    my favorites.
    
    Carole
    

    Re:.17
    
    I'm about 50 pages into the new book, having to finish another book
    prior to reading this one.  So far, so good.  I find myself reading
    and rereadin passages wanting the books to last longer ;-)  Don
    Juan says in this book that the path of the warrior cannot be sought
    by just anyone, but that the spirit has to touch you (the apprentice)
    as well as the naugal (the teacher) before you could become a warrior.
    Probably be cheaper to stay at home and read the books then to chase
    around the desert.
    
    _stew- (who saw the new book first and entered it here ;-)

    I DON'T FEEL THAT CARLOS CASTENEDA'S 'HONESTY' IS AN ISSUE HERE.
    IF HE IS DESCRIBING WHAT HE PERCIEVES TO BE THE TRUTH, IT DOES
    NOT MATTER BECAUSE YOU (AT LEAST I) CANNOT LEARN THIS TYPE OF KNOWLEDGE
    FROM A BOOK...YOU NEED DIRECT EXPERIENCE. BY JUDGING THE WORDS IN
    HIS BOOKS, YOU ARE JUDGING A DESCRIPTION OF REALITY, NOT REALITY
    ITSELF. IF ANY OF US COULD EXPERIENCE IT (AND I DON'T THINK THIS PATH
    IS FOR MODERN MAN), THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO ARGUE ABOUT IT...FOR
    WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED WOULD BE YOURS, AND NO ONE COULD TAKE THAT AWAY.
    WE CANNOT BE TOO PREOCCUPIED WITH THE BOOKS, BECAUSE THEY ARE WORTHLESS 
    WHETHER HE IS TELLING "THE TRUTH" OR NOT. WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY
    HERE CAN BE SUMMED UP MUCH BETTER BY A QUOTE FROM SEMANTICIST ALFRED
    KORZYBSKI:
    
                      "THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRITORY"
    
    UNLESS WE HAVE TRAVERSED THE TERRITORY, WE CANNOT JUDGE THE MAP.
    (AND NO MAP IS PERFECT...IT IS A TWO DIMENSIONAL DESCRIPTION OF FOUR
    DIMENSIONAL SPACE, IN MOST CASES) 
    
    READ THESE BOOKS WITH PLEASURE...WITHOUT JUDGEMENT.
    
    MATT COMARD

    I read a few of these books years ago, forgot about them, subsequently
    lost them, then saw this note!
    
    Well, I've managed to obtain copies of all the books except
    _Journey_to_Ixtlan_ and the last (_The_Power_of_Silence_ ???). 
    If I was going to reread the books, I wanted to do it in chronological
    order, so I read the first two, but couldn't find "Ixtlan" in the
    bookstores.  Being the impatient type, I went ahead with the subsequent
    books and am now just finished _The_Eagles_Gift_.
    
    I'm wondering if some kind soul out there can tell me what I've
    missed in "Ixtlan", and whether I should stop where I am until I
    can find it.
    
    Thanks!

    Ignoring the first two books (unnecessary emphasis on drugs)...
    
    The books should be read in this order:
    
    Journey to Ixtlan
    Tales of Power
    Second Ring of Power
    Eagles Gift
    Fire from Within
    Power of Silence
    
    Based upon my training in warriorship, this is the order that most
    closely represents the evolution and training of a "warrior".

Hi Kevin,

It's nice to see you in here again.  Forgive me if I've missed any recent
entries.

		Dave

  I've been reading these books as they have been coming out since the early
70's. When I started, my friends and I were really big into eastern philosophy
(Alan Watts, J. Kristamerdi (sp?), etc). We watched Kung Foo on T.V. and
discussed it all quite a bit. 

  I read the 1st two books (Don Juan and Separate Reality) assuming that they
were journals of a student studying the ways of knowledge. In those books all
of the unusual stuff seemed to happen while he was on the various drugs
mentioned. In Journey to Ixtlan, as I recall, he sort of started all over, this
time talking of unusual experiences that were not drug based. Also, the journal
style seemed to disappear. I realized, near the end of the book, that I was no
longer thinking of it as a journal, but I was thinking of it as a novel. 

  My change in thinking was not deliberate. It was sort of like looking at
the picture of the two profiles and after a bit you realize that you are
seeing the vase. Somewhere in there, I had just switched over from study
mode to novel reading mode without a lot of rational thought.

  Another change took place somewhere around "Eagles Gift". Before that, Don
Juan had been very vague in his descriptions of Knowledge. From about that
point on he became a lot more specific "revealing" the nature of the sorcerers
world. To me, at that point, it shifted from a novel about an apprentice to
science fiction. As in most science fiction, the author seemed to be creating a
universe and explaining it to the reader as the story went on. 

  Unlike others, I don't get concerned as to whether it's real or not. I just
assume it's fiction and have fun reading. I have noticed, however, that in the
last couple of books it's been dragging a bit. 

  The lecture on "intent" seems to be "stalking" all over again and I'm getting
a little tired of all the exercises where Don Juan has his student stand ankle
deep in water on one foot with one had on his stomach, the other in his ear
waiting for the green mist to go away. I'm also feel like I've got the point
on being impeccable and I don't want to read the inevitable lecture about
how Castinata is indulging any more. It's time for the story to move on.

  I hope that in the coming books (if they continue) they wrap up Castinata's
training and get into other issues. I'd like to see the other members of
Castinata's party come back and I'd like to see them take on projects of
their own, like extending the field of knowledge developed by their line,
interacting with other groups of warriors, and eventually training the new
group that is to follow them.

  In general, I'm pretty happy with the series. Regardless if you think of it
as real of fiction, it's lots of fun to read and it gives you a really good
insight into eastern philosophy and life in general.

  George

    
    
    I finally found a copy of THE CRACK IN THE COSMIC EGG subtitled
    "Challenging constructs of mind and reality," by Joseph Chilton
    Pearce.  Chapter 9 shows some comparisons between don Juan's teachings
    and Jesus teachings. Chilton starts the chapter by stating:
    
    	"The idea of eschewing products, and seizing the very process
    by which reality organizes is the radical departure found in don
    Juan's Way of Knowledge, and in Jesus' Way of Truth.  Don Juan and
    Jesus consider the world to be an arbitrary  construct, not an illusion
    as in the East or a fated absolute as in the West. Since the world
    is an arbitrary construct, the means of construction, not a particular 
    construct, or the products of a construct, are the focal point of 
    attention. 
    
    	"Both don Juan and Jesus have as a goal the seizure of the 
    ontological function itself and both attempts hinge on a compete 
    surrender **to** the function. Through a sacrifice of self and
    absolute obedience to the **way** of the system, union with the process of reality
    is achieved.  There is a single underlying way by which all reality
    forms and "union" with this procedure is possible. However, the
    system or means of achieving such union determines the **kind**
    of reality then shaping as experience for the person involved. 
    There is a single core of reality functioning, but it is not available
    in a "pure" form.  It **is**, in actuality, according to  the method
    of **actualizing** it.  The subjects approach to the function
    determines his realization of it.
    	Don Juan recognizes the ordinary world to be but one of an endless
    number of possible constructs.  The man of courage and daring will
    explore as many posibilities of this as he can, simply because the
    possibilities are there and that is what life is about.  Man can
    reconstruct reality in freely-synthesized ways.  Though death is
    the final victor, to live a strong, hard life, in which reality
    opens its endless possibility, is the mark of a warrior, a man of
    knowledge, and the only conceivable way to live.
    	Jesus aims to restructure particualr events **within** the world.
     He aims toward a special consensus concerning the ordinary reality.
     non-ordinary reality is used only for the sake of the ordinary
    world.  Achieving a new and different "editorial hierarchy of mind"
     the follower of the **way** serves as catalyst for new syntheses
    when our fated and autononomous blindnesses, split from our whole
    mind as they are, lead us inot inescapable delemmas.
    	Don Juan seizes the ontological process to construct paths of
    "breathless wonder."  Jesus seizes the process to bridge the modes
    of mind.  Don Juan is in love with eternity.  He is a kind of hedonist
    of the psyche.  Jesus is in love with time.  He is a pragmatic Hebrew,
    concerned over his fellow man.  The esthetic differences of goals,
    of techniques and disciplines, give dramatically different results.
    but the process of attainment is similar."
    
 
    Ernie   
    I thought that Pearce's comparison was excellent and very descriptive
    analogy between don Juan and Jesus.  Pearce himself had spent about
    10 years in meditation and had dealings with non ordinary reality.
    I thought an interesting comparison was between don Juan's description
    of the Ally and Jesus description of God:  Both are helpers to acquire
    power.

    
     Well,from what I "hear" Carlos is a plegerist in which he takes
    information from ALL over and creates a story line and feeds it.
     Ive read all but two of his books and for the longest time I believed
    that he was legitimate.I guess it could make sense that he stole
    the information.Ive read many of books and I see how he finds his
    stuff.For example:there must be many who talk about the art of "seeing"